The Crisis of Muslim Youth and a Call for a Meeting

I was contacted over the weekend by a very thoughtful sister concerned about the issues surrounding Muslims sisters as outlined in my blog who thought it would be a good idea to include some resources for helping sisters and has said she is working on compiling a list of Muslim organizations set-up to counter domestic violence and the like. This weekend I also was moved by the comments of sister Musleema referring to the number of Muslim youth from broken homes who are angry and teetering on the edge of disaster. These comments led me to begin to wonder about practical things we can do to help some of those in our community who are in a state of anger, disillusionment, frustration, and at the doors of apostasy. Of those who are in this group one of the largest would be our Muslim youth especially those whose parents were a part of “movements” that gave them false hopes of an Islamic Utopia that turned into nightmares for their children.

In crafting an effort to help the youth we must first recognize that many are wounded, may have conflicted or negative perceptions towards many aspects of Islam, may not have a great relationship with at least one of their parents, and have heard all of the corny one-liners and catch-phrases of those who do not recognize any problems and have an Islamic Utopian mentality before, namely their parents and those adults they grew-up with.

These young people are from a generation of Muslims in America who have either grown-up in Muslim schools, been home schooled by Muslim parents, have grown up in the masjid and went to public schools, or are the products of parents who made “hijrah”. They read Quran, have memorized a significant number of suras, possibly speak Arabic, have never celebrated a non-Muslim holiday, have never eaten pork, and have a fairly high level of knowledge and understanding of the deen.

For the most part I am talking about the children of converts, but there are children of immigrant Muslims who fit into this category, but regardless of where their parents came from, they are all in the same boat now as many of them have grown up amongst one another and their identity is firmly that of Muslims.

The disillusionment and anger of many of these youth comes from the fact many of these children of movement Muslims, whether their parents be Salafis, Sufis, Tabliquis, or whatever, do not share the same idealism and fervor that their parents have. Rather, they see that they have moved all over the country (or world) and never been able to settle into a regular life for kids as their parents have sought the best Muslim community on the “Haqq”, have only known poverty while additional siblings were being added every year, if their parents have not been married and divorced multiple times they have many friends whose parents have, and they have seen no tangible benefits to being Muslim or shunning the dunya.

It is likely that these kids have non-Muslim relatives who attended the same schools throughout their academic career, have not moved around, are stable, and seem to be enjoying life while they feel as if they are captives of their family’s vision of Islam which forbids enjoying life.

Some of these kids come from two parent families; but we are going to have to face the reality that many of these kids have fathers who have no relationship with them and do not support them while they are out buying new thobes and the latest “must have” CD of Islamic lectures (or even giving the lectures). The other reality is that we have kids that have known 3, 5, and even 10 or 15 Muslim stepfathers in their lives and this colors their bitter vision of life as a Muslim. Having watched their mothers being treated poorly by the Muslim men in their life the girls can develop a negative attitude towards Muslim men and the boys see the hypocrisy in the talk and action at the masjid.

This is leading to an angry young generation and some will be isolated Muslims, some will strive for a better and more balanced way, some will develop emotional problems and personality disorders, and others may even leave the deen as some already have. I can point to examples of all of these things; I know Muslims who grew-up like this who are sincere practicing Muslims but having seen false-piety so much they don’t come around Muslims that often, others are trying to correct the errors of their parents and find a more balanced deen; but it is unfortunate that I know of a number of Muslim kids who grew up the children of active members in the community and given a full Islamic foundation who are now in prison, are mentally ill, or just out of balance. And then, and then you have those we all fear, who are not Muslim at all.

People may say I should not talk about this, I should leave this one alone, but the reality is that some of the young are leaving Islam, and if we do not get our act together more will do so as they are being raised by fanatical parents. Several Muslim kids I know from strong Muslim backgrounds are now in the streets selling drugs or in gangs. One sister I know has several children by a drug dealer and whose tattooed body and tight-jeans look is far from the niqaab she wore when she was 12. Her sisters are still Muslim, masha’Allah, but they have both been divorced three times before the age of eighteen, and I have to wonder what kind of a view the children of such unions will have towards the deen. Yes we can tell them the deen is the middle path and that we treat our women well and the Muslims are the standard bearers for all things good; but what will these empty words mean to them after they were raised in chaos? If a young girl has had six Muslim step-fathers can she then look at marriage in the idealistic and naïve way like her mother did? If a father had had twenty or thirty wives and children by several of them then is it a far step for the son to say he can have that many girlfriends and “baby mammas”? Or, on a more educated level, how will this negative experience from the deen growing up help them, say if they do go to college, combat the assault from secular humanism, outright hedonism and atheistic liberalism?

Can we expect healthy identity from Muslim kids who were say; born in St. Louis, raised in New Jersey, DC, and South Carolina before being hauled off to Yemen as their father studied deen only to get some kind of rare disease while they lived in Third World poverty? How balanced will they be? Or will they be as angry and bitter as a family of Muslim kids I know raised in Saudi Arabia who barely speak English and have been kicked out of the country only to come to America to live in a ghetto they do not understand with no job skills or edcuation.

Within the next ten years we are going to see tens of thousands of such kids coming of age all over the country who are products of parents with various Muslim movement mentalities and if we do not prepare for them now then we are going to have a wide scale disaster on our hands. One way that we can guarantee failure is to ignore the problem and pretend like it doesn’t exists because, who knows, maybe the kufar are reading and we don’t want to look bad. Already, right now, there are masjids that are dealing with this problem on a wide scale basis. There is a masjid I know of right now full of sisters who have been divorced multiple times and their angry children who they cannot control. The anger of the children is not only being directed towards their bearded and studied fathers; but towards Islam itself, as the only image they have of Muslims in their mind is of dysfunctional and unsuccessful people. Will those kids who were raised without as their fathers glorified the merits of being broke and shunned the “dunya” and education not be bitter when they look at their non-Muslim cousins living comfortable lives? Will they notice that their aunt has not been married ten times and their uncle has had the same job for 20 years?

We need to start moving towards solutions right now and not wait for the problem to grow into a calamity. All of us have the potential to bring something to the table. Some brothers and sisters like me may be able to help with youth sports (in my case boxing and wrestling) but others may be able to contribute in various ways.

This issue is so big that I think we are in need of a working meeting over one day to address the issue that can start a sustained campaign. I am sending out a call to all concerned Muslims in the Washington, DC metro area, where I currently am, to email me at umarlee at if you are interested. This means brothers and sisters and Muslims form all backgrounds and anyone with good ideas. After I get the emails insha’Allah I will secure a location and a date and time. Please do not miss this opportunity to be a part of a solution and I will be writing about this as things develop.


146 thoughts on “The Crisis of Muslim Youth and a Call for a Meeting

  1. A few things here. The begining to it all must rest in what people are taught in the deen and how they are taught it.

    It is all nice and good to dedicate large portions of your life learning religion, but did no one ever think to ask if the family was suffering? Islam is about moderation, but it seems there is no moderation in what you are talking about.

    For many of these people it would seem they are doing nothing but transfering one ghetto life to another. Their behavior doesnt seem to change, rather they spend hours learning how to justify having 20 wives and 15 children and supporting none of them. Instead of girlfriends and “baby mommas” you get multiple wives in short period of time and kids that you refuse to pay for because the mothers are no longer “on it”.

    Instead of arguing little points of fiqh and blacklisting each other over differences of opinions, these guys ought to be striving to see which brother can best raise his kids, provide the best experience and life for their families.

    Do you think God will accept all of the time learning if it was done as just another way to avoid the wife, avoid the kids, and more often than not, avoid a real job, paying the bills and supporting your family?

    Let’s call it what it is, these parents are drop outs. They want to be a part of something, in this case Islam, but dont want to do the hard work it takes to lead a decent life. For many of these types they might have just as well as joined a local street gang as become a Muslim. It is the same thing for them. Either way, they really dont have to change their lives too much.

    Lets start at the root of the issue, as that is the only way to address a problem. The root is deadbeat parents with little or no drive who are looking for anything and everything to give them an excuse to not live a decent life.

    You talk about the kids not staying Muslim, but a good percentage of the parents you describe will leave Islam as well. Why? Because it was another fad and excuse to sit around and do nothing. Have multiple kids, have multiple wives, dont get a good education, dont get a job, only when they convert to Islam they can come up with some hafl-baked “moral” excuse as to why they do it.

    The proper raising of families should be one of the main issues talked about on a daily basis in the Islamic schools, mosques and groups. Sadly enough, it is not.

    The children of the people you describe drift so quickly into deviant behavior, because the truth is, they never left it. It isnt that far to go from “Halal Baby Momma” to having regular Baby Mommas. It isnt that hard to go from 15 “Muslim Step-Fathers” to having 15 boyfriends. There is really no different.

    These people have converted to Islam, but they have never lived Islam. They live the same way they did before, they just call everything by different names. The vocabulary has changed, their actions have not.

    Your issue dealt mostly with children of convert children, but there is just as serious an issue brewing with the children of Muslim immigrants. Many or going the way of America’s Jewish community who are integrating and disappearing into American society, loosing all of their Islam along the way.

    I met a young Pakistani guy today at a business lunch. Turns out his father was Pakistani, his mother an American. He knows no Urdu, knows nothing about Islam. This is very common here in the USA.

    It isnt just inter-cultural people from Muslim backgrounds, it is the sons and daughters of Muslims from Syria, Palestine, Saudi Arabia, Yemen, North Africa. They are Muslim in name only.

    We risk following the Jewish community in the USA where some 50%+ marry outside of their community, most of them have the smallest knowledge of their faith, and in two generations there are no Jews left in their family.

    We are in serious trouble on both fronts and the Muslim clergy and establishment dont want to do a thing about it.

  2. As salaamu alaikum,

    I think to a large extent, the situations you are describing about the multiple marriages and so on are problems relating mostly to specific communities or types of people- and that’s ok, just that not everyone can relate nor will it encompass all Muslim youth. Its true that their children are getting a bad impression of Islam from that way.

    I think however, that the other demographic, the settled, well-to-do, immigrant family case will need some attention too, and people who understand that background. Although it seems that one background seems worse than the other on a dunyawi level, the children of both types of families are sufferring from a disconnect, not always because of how their parents live, but also the general challenges of being in society today and not personally feeling uplifted by religion. This is across so many groups- perhaps the children haven;t been able to think about Islam for themselves and which style they prefer.

    Abu Sinan, I understand your claim that there are people who are trying to avoid work through Islam, but try to look at it from those people’s shoes as well. Sometimes, those people are trying hard to leave old lifestyles, they never had appropriate job training or education before Islam, and they realize that the world is a rat race. How many brothers will say that if they try to get a very decent life together, they work overtime and lose out on what they want to study and do, or even small things like having some time to themselves? I am not saying I support that, because family is a responsibility, but we need to find solutions that are realistic. Many people are led to believe that the only service to Islam is in becoming a scholar; sometimes since the only role models we see are speakers, young Muslims want to do that same thing, not realizing the balance of responsibilities it requires.

    On one hand, you have not working at all and marrying many times, the other hand, is chasing dunya, and being content with living a religion-less life that is still ethical (or so they think). I think both need to be considered when addressing the problems with Muslim youth today.

  3. As Salaamu Alaikum Brother Umar:

    This piece makes me cry. I see these kids and youth daily … in prison. I listen to their stories. They tell it just like you wrote it.

    I have just retired from our prison system here, and am now the Muslim chaplain for the facility, Alhamdulillah.

    To Everyone:

    One of the places to start for making a difference is in our prisons. Contact the Muslim chaplain or Facility chaplain in a prison near you. They would welcome you as a volunteer. Incarcerated Muslims, especially young inmates, need good Muslim role models. You may be their only connection to the community when they are released. Volunteer to be a pen pal to an incarcerated Muslim kid. Just be there for them. A hug goes a long way … especially to a Muslim kid who only knows touch as incest, a punch, or a smack.

  4. SubhanAllah, am i living in a box?? I havent seen any of the problems that are described above in NY =) The community i am part of, are middle class, most of them have good jobs and stable families. Alhamdulillah and yes they are practicing Muslims and very active in the community….

    Of course there are minor problems (e.g. sisters are more practicing then brothers so marriage problems , etc) but i m just confused whether u r really talking about Muslims of America…

  5. Abu said:

    “These people have converted to Islam, but they have never lived Islam. They live the same way they did before, they just call everything by different names. The vocabulary has changed, their actions have not.”

    Very well put. I see a lot of these types in my city and frankly, they make me sick to my stomach. If we could take a hint from the Orthodox Jewish culture, a little shunning of these types would go a long way. Why does the Muslim community always continue to embrace these losers?

  6. I don’t think shunning, as a rule, is a good solution. We should be reaching out to lift others up, and only back away if they’re bringing us down.

  7. @ …

    Brother Umar IS talking about American Muslims

    He has only spoken the truth

    @ Abu Sinan

    Your post was PERFECT! : )

  8. Parallel…

    I am talking about habitual offenders here. Sure everyone can make a mistake, but when there is a pattern to the behavior, we have to put these folks out on their a****. I cannot take my daughters around much of the community because every segment seems to have a whole group of losers, baby mama dramas, drug addicts, DL boys, what have you. When are we going to actually show that we stand up for the MORALS that we preach about to non-Muslims on the daily? I hate the fact that some of these “Brothers and Sisters” can do whatever they want outside of the masjid doors, but when something is said, well, that makes YOU a backbiter and a slanderer. I am sorry, but that is just wrong. We should be able to stand up and call people out on their un-Islamic behavioral patterns.
    If we don’t, we are allowing their filth to penetrate the rest of our community. I not only agree with shunning 100% but I think a little black list amongst Imams is just DANDY too. These types are chameleons and they just love to bounce from Masjid to Masjid, marrying some unsuspecting new convert or what have you. In a twist of IRONY, you will often see these very same people attempting to be on panel discussions, or interfaith dialogs trying to propagate the faith that they so meagerly adhere to themselves. Give me a break. We need a LOT of good old fashioned shunning, at the very least, I think it’s a good start.

  9. I often wonder what became of the 15 year old African American girl, who made hijrah to the Gulf (to sit with a Salafi Shaykh) with her mother, step-father and their younger children only to be shipped back alone to live with kafir relatives after her mother woke up to discover the step-father raping her in her sleep. After asking Shaykh Fawzee al-Athari (or his wife) the permissability of staying with him, she was told that it was her choice but that the girl could not stay. She made the tough choice of not letting her other children go fatherless and sent her oldest daughter back.

    Needless, to say the brother was not exposed, because he did not have manhaj issues.

    Can you imagine, what drove the mother to make this choice? I doubt it was love for the man, but more the fact that she knew if she left him her options were few. How sad!

  10. @ fairuzamizna

    You are so right. I am sickened when I see some of these speakers on these panels feigning righteousness while they are not taking care of their very own families. The “du’at” that move from city to city are the ones that you have to watch very carefully. THERE IS A REASON THEY ARE MOVING every year. THAT should be a HUGE hint to many.

    It is normal to move a couple of times, but these guys move several times and marry in each city until they are run out

  11. Salaams Everyone:

    The masjids in Philly have a “black list” of these kinds of brothers.

    Sisters must work together to help sisters increase self-esteem. Some sisters knowingly marry these brothers. The variables are many: fear of being alone, need for sex, need for money, etc. Such an emphasis is placed on marriage in the Muslim community; many sisters feel targeted for criticism by other Muslims if they are not married, i.e., “what’s wrong with you that you are unmarried” kind of thing.

    MANA is trying to address this issue:

  12. Fairuzamizna,

    I agree with you 100%. The mosques are not often safe for our girls anymore, there are as many predators if not more in them, yet they hdie behind their screen of “piousness”.

    Here in the DC area I know of more than a few respected people who sit on these boards and are very active in the community when their own personal lives are a shamble and it would seem their time away from their own family “in service of the community” has contributed to it.

    I was going to tell a few stories without naming names, but I have decided not to. Anyone who has lived in the DC area will know of well respected leaders who had large family issues and almost everyone knows the details.

    We arent talking inner-city mosques, we are talking middle/upper classes areas and communities like Dar al Hijarah.

    These problems are everywhere.

    Those people who act like they do not see this stuff at their mosque are either at Disneyland or keep their eyes close. I have been to mosques all over the USA and Europe and these problems exist at every single one, to one extent or another.

  13. Here’s a sort of Dramatization of the issue at hand which I thought was somewhat relevant: from an article entitled, AZZAM THE AMERICAN
    by RAFFI KHATCHADOURIAN, which appeared in the January 22 2007 issue of the New Yorker Magazine:

    Diab’s ex-wife is Saraah Olson, and, though her memory is colored by her divorce, she and her son, Ryan, offer the most detailed picture of Gadahn’s radicalization. Olson had met Diab in 1991, while she was working as a secretary at California State University at Dominguez Hills. He had come by her office to pick up some forms, and, a few minutes later, he returned to ask her out. They began dating, and after about a year they married. Ryan, Olson’s son from a previous marriage, was nearly six, and, encouraged by Diab, the two converted to Islam. Ryan adopted the name Bilal and began attending a local Muslim school; Saraah began wearing a hijab and got a job at the Islamic Society. But soon, Olson told me, Diab was attempting to control every aspect of their lives, often through physical abuse. Diab hung blankets over the windows. He prevented Ryan from playing outside, and forced him to study a book of Arabic prayers.
    “Hisham was just a hair trigger away from killing someone,” Ryan, who is now a twenty-year-old college student, told me. “I had made it halfway through the book, with no problems. But I mispronounced a couple of words, and Hisham was like ‘Do it again.’ I was like ‘O.K.,’ and I mispronounced them again. And that just set him off, and he came down right on my back with those hands. And I remember a rush of air out of my lungs, and I fell to the floor. I went upstairs—my mom was in the bedroom—and Hisham was just going insane, just spitting vitriol out of his mouth. My mom closed and locked the door. It was like the bullfights in Spain—like one of those bulls charged right through the door, and it collapsed right in front of him. And he just came right through and grabbed my mom, and I don’t remember what happened next except that he dragged her out onto the balcony.” Later, Ryan said, “I hated being Bilal.”

  14. One reality I think we, as Muslims, need to acknowledge is the fact that in many cases we have simply replaced dating with ‘Islamic Marriage’. Perhaps this is more pertinent to the converts among us. We lived our lives prior to becoming Muslims with certain expectations which it seems we simply adopt to ‘Islamically acceptable’ situations. In addition, I think many of us, again, in particular the converts, marry at a much younger age than we ever would have considered were we not Muslims. Therefore, we see an almost collective lack of maturity and responsibilty in our communities, directly pertaining to marriage and otherwise,

  15. Woe is me…….

    I have seen many a mother sacrifice their children on the altar of selfishness. Why any woman would want to remarry while she has young daughters is beyond me. The statistics are out there as to the sexual abuse rates in blended families. I have even heard of a muslim woman marrying a man who was accused by a previous step-daughter of molestation….AND THE NEW WIFE KNEW ABOUT IT AND MOVED IN ANYWAYS (with daughters in tow)!

    These women are not MOTHERS, they are simply BREEDERS, and that, in the most basest, animalistic sense of the word.

  16. Asalamualaikum

    I thought this article was a question and answer of everyone who is seeking truth. I really enjoy reading Brother Umar Lee’s blog.

    The most important problem we are facing today with youngster is that their parents are not getting married because of Islam. They are just converting their faith to fit in the society of the ones they want to spend their life with. The parents who have reverted their deen to Islam just for the sake of Allah alone; their children are not lost or misjudging anything about Islam. As for a fathers leaving children behind to acquire knowledge. If the father/mother has decided it for Allah than Allah is alone responsible for their families who step out of their house for Allah. A simple example is if you leave for war today for sake of the country, the country helps the soldier’s family. Allah is more responsible than a mere country.

  17. Having become interested in Islam while at college in an idyllic little New England town, i have to say that i was in for a shock when i moved to the Big City to further my Islamic studies and be involved in the da`wah. I went assuming that the Muslims there (talking about African-Americans, primarily) would be like Malcolm X’s with traditional Islamic knowledge. (Keep in mind this was at the time when everyone was walking around with their X caps.) I could not have possibly fathomed that the MUSLIMS there were more “ghetto” than the clowns and knuckleheads i used to hang with back in high school–but the Muslims there were.

    It took me about a week (less than that, actually)–after the high of being in a Islamic environment began to wear off–to realize that the kids (and the parents) were still suffering from the same n!gger mentality of the typical ghetto kaafir. The thought from the immigrant leadership was that if the people are simply taught traditional knowledge, then their (African-Americans’) problems would fade away. I knew that wouldn’t be the case, for unlike the AA, the immigrants, even if they are horrendously ignorant of the Religion, at least function (in general): they get up and go to work, they aren’t on drugs, and they aren’t robbing and shooting people in petty street crimes.

    Two things need to be done to fix the situation. For one, as much as people detest him, we have to look at the program of the Despicable Elijah Poole. He not only provided a comprehensive program for AA’s, he also addressed the MIND SET of the n!gger mentality, and his organization (in the most ideal sense) had ZERO TOLERANCE for the n!gger mentality. Sadly, a lot of African-Americans in coming to Sunni Islam tended to throw out the baby with the bath water. There were a many useful practices and ideas coming out of the (old) Nation of NOT Islam that African-American Muslims seem to have abandoned.

    In my time in the City, i always felt like the discussion regarding the youth had to begin with: “How do you get them out (of the ghetto)?” You are not going to fix the ghetto pathologies while remaining in the ghetto. For a whole lot of reasons, you need to have the kids in boarding schools out in the country. There must be a psychological break with the ghetto mind set–and it must be a complete break from the ghetto. The youth need to see what the ghetto for what it is–and it ain’t about “being black” or “keeping it real”–the ghetto is about the powers-that-be largely orchestrating circumstances that are designed to keep black people at the bottom of the social heap. If–and this is a big if–the kids can keep their street smarts and know how to think on their feet, and be hip to the high level cons without being contaminated by the gutter culture of the ghetto, that is good, but if they can’t do both, it is far better for them to lose touch with the ghetto than to feel that their worldview must be circumscribed by it.

    Another point is the such schools must have a curriculum that is relevant to the MAJOR changes we can see happening in this globalism era. These youth need to be trained for world leadership–and nothing else. For those who simply don’t have the ability or inclination (for such an education), then they need to acquire the necessary skills so they can marry and afford a family–even if they are still in their teens.

    Lastly, what is need is something akin to the ole school (so-called) Muslim Girl Training (MGT) from the Eli Poole’s group. And along with that, “Muslim Chivalry Training”–wherein, the boys are taught what it means to be a man… and how to treat and put up with women. In summary, this ghetto mentality that prevails in many of the inner city Islamic centers needs to be dealt with head on, for if it is not, as Umar said, the Muslim community will be consumed by the ghetto pathologies that wreck havoc on so much of black America.


    I have my own critique of the immigrant communities, but that isn’t the subject of this post.

  18. If we do not learn from history, we are doomed to repeat it.

    As I was reading this entry, I got this nagging feeling that I had heard this all somewhere before. Low and behold, these american muslims really are living the american dream – that of the puritans. They made hijrah to the US and went about setting up their little utopia, their city on the hill. Many of their good kids, those raised in a 100% puritan environment, rejected the faith when they became adults.

    I wonder if something can be learned from this? Time to dig out those old history books.

    Once things get cooking in the DC area, please let the rest of us know, especially if there is something we can do from states afar.

  19. What is described here is not indirect but direct and seems, on the whole, concerning the break up of Afro-American Muslims.

    The criticisms are right in places but a certain dismissive tone has been aired and congratulated as if Emile Durkhiem has returned to describe the life and times of religion among the poor and depraved.

    Lose the ‘word’ Muslim, and leave in just ‘Afro-American’, it sounds like we are steering towards right wing polemics against a whole community, and without the usual customary social-economic analysis (except in Swath Moor’s case).

    What is happening to a community or generation is happening in UK and France to second and third generation Muslims. Differences are minimal.
    In Europe, and brigades of polemicists, Islamo-phobes are writting in the terms heard here, but any respectful critique is more balanced, looking at racial, cultural, social and economic factors.

    These are the seminal factors in deprivation, including moral deprivation ; and the sad fact is that the people condemned here were perhaps naive enough to beleive that by State or Globe trotting they would be able to escape those ever present realities.
    We have choices but these too can be circumscribed.

    Islamic education is useful but not conclusive in relation to community healing. Inshallah, the brothers know of the Suwaida area in Riyad. This perhaps will indicate the issue.

  20. Although I would not word it the exact same way as Swarthmoor, I concur that we need something akin to FOI/MGT orientation style classes within the confines of the Sunnah, minus the Yakoub science and the motherplane mumbo jumbo.

    I think that some of the animosity that many of us have towards the NOI has less to do with disdain for their `aqeedah and more to do with our envy for the dignity in which those brothers and sisters presented back in the day in comparison to what a lot of us are reppin with all of our “`ilm” that we say we have under the Sunnah.

    According to Imam Ash-Shafi’i, ‘ilm is not what is memorized but what is demonstarted. Perhaps, we do know as much about the Sunnah as we think that we do.

  21. swarthmoor,

    brother, I would love to hear your commentary on the immigrant community also.

    You are very correct in that the ghetto negro mentality is unfortunately very prevalent in inner city muslim communities.

  22. The problems detailed in this post are not affecting only AA communities. Some children born to immigrant parents are caught in the legal syste, are selling drugs, or at the very least, admire their peers who do. For those of you who think its not a problem, you are living in a dreamworld.

  23. fairuzamizna,

    I would have to take issue about the idea of sisters with young daughters getting married. Should sisters with young daughters wait until they 18? I am not sure even this would help, should they wait until their leave the house and get married?

    What does this do to the life of a mother of a two year old girl whose husband leaves her? Is she required to stay single until the girl is 18, or even longer?

    I married my wife and she had a young daughter, aged 10, and a young son, aged 11. It is often very hard for mothers with children to remarry, especially in the case of women from immigrant communities where the culture works against it.

    I think the keys is not for the women not to remarry, it is for them to be very picky in whom they choose to marry. When you have children and are put in a position to remarry, for whatever reason, you are not just choosing a spouse you are also choosing a new parent for your children. This added duty requires extra care in the selection of the new spouse.

    Advocating that mothers with young daughters do not get married opens up a whole new can of worms for these women. These women are already viewed with suspicion in certain communities, making it so they cannot get married for years or even a decade or more is entirely unfair and would open them up to even more suspicion, never mind the opening in their own lives to act in haram ways because they do not have a spouse and wont have for years.

    Men who abuse little children will abuse their children as well as the children of their spouse. The goal is to marry someone who wont have an issue with any children, not just those in a blended family situation.


    An excellent post and I too would like to hear what you have to say about the immigrant community.

  24. Asalamualaikum,

    I agree with Abu Sinan.

    “I think the keys is not for the women not to remarry, it is for them to be very picky in whom they choose to marry. When you have children and are put in a position to remarry, for whatever reason, you are not just choosing a spouse you are also choosing a new parent for your children. This added duty requires extra care in the selection of the new spouse.”

    Muslim parents raise their children in west and look forward to them to go back to their country and marry a person raised in totally different culture.

  25. Bismillah

    I haven’t read all the comments so don’t mind if I’m repeating things that have already been said.

    Those issues you’ve described are not very prevelant in my community, although there’s no denying they do exist to some extent. Perhaps I don’t see it because I’m not in any ‘movement type mentality.

    I do however deal very often with problems in what you often refer to as the ‘immigrant community’. There’s seems to be a huge disconnect between the young people and the older generation. It’s common to see parents who put extra effort into making sure their children have secular education while ignoring thier islamic education or giving them their version of cultural Islaam. I’ve also seen parents who couldn’t care less about educating their children and don’t go to meet teachers. I’ve seen many fathers who while present physically, are absent from raising thier children. It’s sad…youth accross the board need attention. We’ve been working here to establish a mentoring program and it’s kicking off soon alhamdullilaah.

    You can’t solve a problem that you don’t admit you have. The first step is to get people to understand that there is a problem. Good post Umar..

  26. Abu,

    I was really just referring to the women who bounce from one husband to the next. (The types that get involved in quickie marriages without thinking of their children’s safety and security at all.)

    Women just need to be careful, take their time and check references before making such a crucial decision.

  27. Fairuza,

    I agree. It amazes me how convert women will make choices about men that they never would have made before they converted.

    I also think, with men as well as women, if you are on your fourth marriage and it isnt working out, maybe you just arent cut for marriage and need to stop getting married.

    These multiple marriages often tend to be nothing more than “halal” dating. Many times it seems to be cheaper on the brothers. A nice hijab for a mahr and off you go to the marital chamber.

    Even a movie and a dinner costs more than that.

  28. fairuzamizna:


    I understand your point. I know a sister like this personally. Married twice and been in so called muta 2 or 3 times. Although, I don’t understand how you can muta with somone who isn’t shia like you. How in the world do you muta a man claiming to be Salafi or 5%er?

    It wouldn’t be so bad if she didnt have very young kids but when i read this article all I can think about is what type of men will they become?

    I tried to talk to her about it… about this lack of foundations, security, and stablility (sp) she is teaching her children but she can’t hear me. She looks at it as not being her fault. She can’t force the brothers to stay and she doesn’t want to be alone and needs help.

    I tried to tell her that none of the brothers you have choosen thus far had any ture intentions to stick around. They see a woman with kids and just take advantage, but its up to you to not rush into anything as if its your only chance to find happiness.

    I feel like I’m talking to myself in the dark.


  29. I have known people like that. She needs to understand that these guys with the Muta are engaging in an act that their theology says is haram, yet they are doing it anyway.

    What does that say about the character of the guys she is picking. What she also needs to realise is that her behavior is going to turn off the decent brothers who might take her, and her children, and actually stay.

    Her children are going to learn bad behavior from this and in the future are likely to turn on her.

  30. I find it interesting that many of you assume that these ant-social behaviors of crime, unemployment, and violence are somehow endemic only to African Americans.

    If you look at how many North African Arabs in Paris, France behave you will find they exhibit many of the same anti-social behaviors of poor African Americans: Crime, drugs, incarceration, unemployment, and violence. Yet these people come directly FROM the land of Islam and don’t have the historical baggage of slavery and Jim Crow.

    The phenomenon of gang rapes “tournante” in Paris, where Arabs have victimized fellow Arab women who they feel are not properly covered by gang raping them with sometimes up to 14 men is quite common.

    I say this to point out that dysfunctional anti-social behavior is not a function of race. It is a function of urban poverty, lack of social mobility, cultural oppression, racism, poor family structure, poor education, and social dislocation.

    This anti-social behavior can even be seen among Muslims immigrant youth in London. You have Pakistani kids there engaged in gang like activity that you would never expect that good “desi” honor student in the U.S. to engage in.

    So next time I hear Muslims (immigrant or not) talking about “ghetto niggers” in America, I would suggest they observe the behavior of people from their own homeland in other parts of the Western world who don’t have to deal with the historical realities African Americans cope with in this country.

  31. Abu Sinan,

    Your first point sends shivers. Many people convert to Islam but dont become Muslim.

    I was thinking in order to avoid the problem of “halah dating” shouldnt women increase the portion of their mahr to say thousands of dollars to exclude the rifraf?

  32. Abdul Jabbar,

    I agree with what you are saying about the problems of Muslim youth in Europe. However the are living lives where they have more money, more education, more social mobility than their parents back in Algeria or Pakistan. How can they have more social problems living in the West where they have far more social and economic mobility than their counterparts back in the home country?

  33. Abu Sinan:

    I have tried to express to her some of the same points. I told her at the very least if you want to see these men then don’t veil it under ANY Islamic titles. Don’t ghetto the deen or allow men to convince you to sauce of deen issues with ghetto behavior. Don’t annouce it to people as if these actions are legit and try to keep it far away from your children.

    “What does that say about the character of the guys she is picking. What she also needs to realise is that her behavior is going to turn off the decent brothers who might take her, and her children, and actually stay.”

    Funny you said that becuase she just called me a few days ago upset that her brother called and said word at her masjid is that she will marry anyone.

    Now, I find that a person (her brother) who doesn’t even attend her masjid would know about the scoop their. It sounds like its more of his personal view that he’s to afraid to just come out and say but that doesn’t mean what he is saying isn’t true. I know there is a lot of pressure to get married fast in communities but I think she just doesn’t think highly of herself. She might be happy to have any help she can get with 2 little boys to raise on her own and maybe feels like she should be happy with what ever she gets.

    That’s the envirnment she comes from. A widowed woman with kids should just be happy if anyone wants to deal with them at all.

  34. Bikhair said about Muslims in Europe:

    “How can they have more social problems living in the West where they have far more social and economic mobility than their counterparts back in the home country.”

    When you have a French cop asking you for your papers on every corner, and a president that calls you “scum”. You might sense some barriers to social mobility that you didn’t have in North Africa.

  35. Abdul Jabar,

    Umar, and others on this post, made it clear they were talking about one segment of the American Muslim population. No one denied the issues with other communities and other countries, it is just that this thread is really not about that.

    I hope that Umar and others write posts about the issue you brought up, but that is not what is being talked about here.

    I dont think anyone claimed that the African American Muslim community has a corner on this sort of problem.

  36. Abdul-Jabbar,

    I agree that the ghetto n!gger behavior isn’t exclusive to race–nonetheless, such behavior and attitude is prevalent among inner city African-Americans and others who emulate them. Furthermore, those ghetto n!ggers call themselves such, and those black folks who are not “ghetto” make an effort to distinguish themselves from such people.

    Another point to keep in mind is that the jacked up ghetto behavior of European immigrant Muslims is OFTEN IN IMITATION OF THE GUTTER SLUM CULTURE OF “OUR COLOREDS” HERE IN AMERICA. How many of those Euro-Muslims are avid fans of American rap music and culture? Now how many African-Americans are fans of Euro-Muslim music artists? This culture is like a friggin’ virus that is contaminating half the youth on earth.

    On last thing–this was one of the things that was strong about the so-called Nation of Islam: they recognized the causes for ghetto pathologies… but they never made excuses or attempted to justify them. Ghetto folk are in the condition they are in (and when i say “ghetto folk,” i don’t mean merely being poor and living in an urban area–i mean GHETTO) because of a lack of morals, self-control, self-respect, and a lack of regard for useful knowledge. The solution is simple: stop actin’ like an urban savage, and your situation will improve. And the best way to improve yourself is to simply IMPLEMENT THE LAWS OF THE RELIGION.

    May Allah guide us and protect this Ummah from the pathologies of this gutter-ghetto culture.

  37. Swarthmoor writes “This culture is like a friggin’ virus that is contaminating half the youth on earth.”

    You are spot on here brother. I have heard imitations of this ghetto culture all over the world, from North African rap on the radio when I was driving in France to saggin’ pants and NWA in Jordan.

    Part of the reason that immigrant Muslims look at African Americans the way do is because in their countries the only representation they have of the African American community is rap and the clothes and culture that go with it. So for them all African Americans are nothing more than drug dealing and doing hos and pimps looking to make a quick buck.

    It seems for some reason that the worst of America is what is always exported. I wish the youth of North Africa and the Middle East would take the value of learning, hard work and work ethnic, independent thinking, the best of what the USA has to offer.

    Instead they’d rather take 50 Cent and sagging pants.

  38. So let me get this strait. Arab Muslims in Paris are rioting in the streets because of American hip hop music?

    Arab youth are GANG RAPING women in Paris because of American Hip Hop Music??

    Muslim youth in Europe are committing crime, getting in trouble with the law and are unemployed because of American Hip Hop music???

    You guys need to end your membership in the Bill O’reilly fan club and get a clue.

    What was causing Italian Americans to act like urban degenerates in the early 20th century through organized crime? American Hip Hop music?

    What is causing the thug life scum culture of the Irish Americans in South Boston? American Hip Hop music?

    What caused the birth of scum like Myer Lansky and Bugsy Siegel?? American Hip Hop music?

    What is causing Russian Mobsters to exhibit degenerate behavior in New York City? American Hip Hop Music?

    Are Asian gangs in Frisco whacking each other like animals because of Young Geezy??

    Did Hip Hop create Pablo Escobar to?

    All this (barring Pablo Escobar) is a product of the dislocation of the poverty and degenerate nature of the American Urban experience coupled with ostracism from the ruling class of those respective geographic areas.


    Pakis in London, Arabs in Paris, Irish in Boston, Italians in Staten Island, or Russian Jews in New York… all exhibit high amounts of urban degenerate behavior.

    When I see Italian Urban white trash whacking each other because someone didn’t pay the vic, I’ll make sure to tell them to turn off the Biggy Smalls.

    Black folk have almost 300 years of Slavery, 100 years of Jim crow (up until 1964 Negroes couldn’t even vote in many places), and racism that explains much of the urban degenerate behavior exhibited.

    Whets the explanation for you “other” people?

    Racism manifests itself in some funny ways.

    Hip-hop: The cause for the all the world’s problems… Give me a break.

  39. Abu Sinan,

    There are many communities that listen to rap music and manage to go on to lead successful lives. Emulating rappers has the added advantage of feeling ultra masculine and fearless. Something perhaps the young Muslim communities in Europe lack. Its the same reason why they are also attracted to hardcore takfiri groups. Its the machismo and aggression that so appealing. Rap and Takfir have become strange bedfellows.

  40. When you think of the campaign to emasculate black men for centuries, while it may be exaggerated and excess, it is interesting that sheltered kids from suburbia want to emulate the culture. At least they arent walking around head down, speak when spoken to, and defeated.

  41. Abu Sinan,

    African-American culture is not without merit (i don’t intend to imply you are saying that it is). The strength of African-American culture lies in its ability to innovate. Thus, AA’s are phenomenally popular all over the world. However, what they have made “hip” and “cool” is this degenerate “hip hop” culture (and when i say “hip hop,” i am talking about the vast bulk of that aural fecal matter). The ability to innovate and be stylish are not mutually exclusive with learning and righteousness (of course, when i say “innovate,” i mean in what is permissible).

    We are Muslims, and it is our duty to be the leaders and paragons of humanity–not to be a bunch of ignorant criminal reprobates. Muslims need to realize the grave danger this N-Culture presents to the Ummah. And Muslims need to deal with this thing head on and squash it.

    Another virtue of African-Americans is that many of us have not bought into this American Dream thing. African-Americans are a people of protest. Unlike many immigrant Muslims in the US, AA’s don’t tend to long to be absorbed into the melt down pot that is America. It should be clear to anyone with the slightest moral sense that something is DEEPLY WRONG with America, and it behooves us to work to improve this nation and the world. This is where the heroes of African America come in: especially, Malcolm X.

    For all those who think they are “keeping it real,” Malcolm was slinging dope, pimpin’, and doing the B & E’s literally 60 years ago. These jokers today ain’t doin’ nothin’ new. To the contrary, they are falling into the same old neo-slave traps that were set up for their grandfathers. Malcolm demonstrates the value of hard work, study, self-denial and moral discipline–and in spite of the fact of coming straight up out of the bowels of black America, he was able to become a world icon. And he was a world icon without beggin’ and shufflin’ and jivin’ to be accepted by mainstream America. Now if you didn’t accept him for what he was, then it didn’t change him one bit from doing what he considered to be right (and was even man enough to admit that what he thought was right was wrong). Black folks today–and African-American Muslims, in particular–HAVE NO EXCUSE for not continuing the legacy of Malcolm. Furthermore, today, we have the blessing of access to authentic traditional Islamic knowledge. It simply astounds me that black folks have abandoned someone like Malcolm for the Half-a-Bucks and the easy-access homo draggin’ drawer cult. Nonetheless, it is our duty as Muslims to turn this thing around, in-sha’ Allah.

    With Allah is the guidance and success.

  42. Abdul-Jabbar,

    It is evident that rap music is a MAJOR CONTRIBUTING FACTOR to the degenerate urban culture. You have people who are imitating the gutter culture of black America… because… they saw it in a rap video. We can’t play pretend here: rap is being promoted FOR A REASON, and it is not a benevolent one. Rap (arguably) didn’t make Pablo Escobar–but rap certainly GLORIFIES SUCH HUMAN SCUM.

    The problem in the black ghetto is the LACK OF TAQWA. Simply evaluate the prevalent behavior in the ghetto on the scales of the Shari`ah. The Caliph would be busy whoopin’ drunks and fornicators, hackin’ hands off of thieves, bustin’ up adulterers with rocks, and crucifying these clowns doin’ murderous car jackings.

    Abdul-Jabbar, racism isn’t causing black people to have a 70% bastard rate nationwide (and a 90% bastard rate in some cities). It isn’t racism that is causing them to kill each other over rags on their heads. Racism isn’t causing them to sell crack to pregnant women. The behavior of these people is due to the DISEASES IN THEIR HEARTS.

    Nobody is ignoring the existence of racism, but that isn’t the root of the problems in black America. If you put these people on an island by themselves–with no white people around–they’d go back to their pagan savage roots: walkin’ around nekkid, tatted up, with multiple piercings and bones thru their noses. The root of the problem is that these people have made it a “style” to violate what Allah has Revealed, and this is why folks with discernment look down on such behavior, and that is why Allah has degraded them in this life (and will be in the Hereafter). Muslims need to stop coddling these people. We, as Muslims, have our own identity, and it is not the identity (or behavior) of the mushriks.

  43. Abdul-Jabbar,

    I know folks who are poor and live in the “hood,” and they don’t behave like these savages. Why is that? Because they fear Allah and they work on managing their hearts. You can be dignified and still be poor–to the contrary, most of the pious people are from among the poor. Racism is no excuse for such degenerate behavior. Bilal Al-Habashiyy was black; he faced racism. Bilal was a slave (no, i didn’t say his great-great-great-great grandad–he himself was a slave); he was laughed at, mocked, and tortured. Bilal was not rich. Yet, he was one of the most dignified humans to ever walk the face of the earth.

    These clowns who live in the most industrialized nation on earth–who on any given day are wearing their rap video costumes that are valued at more than what i’ve spent on clothes in the past three to five years–have no excuse for their deplorable behavior, and we as Muslims have no excuse trying to defend them.

  44. Firstly, I have not read every comment on this post, but i would just like to mention something that i was cruoius as to what some people would say about it. I was thinking today, about this whole ‘ghetto mentality’ situation. And i came to the conclusion that if you want to keep or remove, or avoid, muslim youth form getting taken in by this culture that was placed here. Wouldn’t it be smarter to NOT worry about getting them out or making them avoid it, but to tell them why it is wrong in the first place? Isn’t it better to teach these youth why a certain mentality or culture is destructive?

    I personally, don’t fully know the ins and outs of this entier issue. And i am looking at it from the point of view of…an ‘addiction’ of sorts. What i see is a culture which is so obviously destructive to humans, while at the same time very pleaseing to the mind sets of the youth that are attractied to it. In a simple form, if you take your average, “ghetto mentality” inflicted youth [wether muslim or not] who has grown up and become part of this culture, and maby, just maby even glorify it. And tell them to leave it, leave what they grew up with…Without explaining to them the WHY, or the purpose for them…do you think you will have a very receptive crowd?

    As i said before, i don’t know the whole issue, but when i would observe, a person getting involved with something, that was destructive to themselves, wether they relized it or not. And someone else trying to remove them from it, often times, the Reason, or PURPOSE as to why they should leave it, was left out. To me, what i see when i look at what is going on, is i see a people who are addicted to something, a way of life, a subculture [well, a culture really], and the only way for them to leave it is for them to relize it is bad. And not jsut ‘oh yeah, do this crap and you get in toruble’…but to relize that this culture is destructive to the humans who are in it, why it is destructive…and even more, WHAT it means to be in a destructive environment, some people, i feel, don’t even know what harm is if it isn’t pshyical. They see what is going on around them [some of them], and get angry and do what they do so on and so forth, because they were never taught what harm is, and what harm them, and how to deal with it.

    As much as i hate to say it, humans are simple. If you plan to help a people who are stuck on something, you have to be simple about it [and yes, we are dealing with very simple people [and this is directed at the youth involved as a whole, not just ‘youth who are stuck in ghettosville, who just happen to be muslim’]] explaine to the people what harm is, why you should avoid it, and then tell them what is harmful. And how to avoid those things. In each case.

    In short, if you want to help people, you sometimes have to tell them why they need help. And if the person cannot grasp that, you have to go down a notch and teach them what is harm.

    Remember, Allah guides whom ever he wills.

  45. Another point to keep in mind is that the jacked up ghetto behavior of European immigrant Muslims is OFTEN IN IMITATION OF THE GUTTER SLUM CULTURE OF “OUR COLOREDS” HERE IN AMERICA.

    Riiiiiight! All evil spews from the black man, no I get it. This has to be one of the most cockamamie BS statements I’ve heard in a long while.

    Weren’t it not for those degenerate Nigras those decent white folks wouldn’t be acting like that.

    Maurisco please!

    Rap culture is an excuse for dysfunctional behavior, not a cause.

  46. @ Dawud

    Although I would not word it the exact same way as Swarthmoor, I concur that we need something akin to FOI/MGT orientation style classes within the confines of the Sunnah, minus the Yakoub science and the motherplane mumbo jumbo.

    That is an excellent idea. I wonder if there are any manuals from the FOI/MGT still around that could be “sunnified” for community development purposes?

    You are on spot about the dignity aspect being the cause for jealousy of the NOI. one thing that Farrakhan has never allowed his detractors to do is to act as if they have the moral high ground to dictate to him what is wrong with the AA community at large.

  47. I get very irritated when people try to blame rap or hip-hop for many of the social ills present in the African-American community.

    For instance, parallels can be drawn between the plight of Indian-Muslims and African-Americans in general.

    Below is an excerpt of the article “The New Untouchables” from the Washington post .
    “Consider these figures: Fifty-two percent of Muslim men are unemployed, compared with 47 percent of dalit men.
    Unemployment among Muslim women is 91 percent, compared with 77 percent among dalit women.
    Forty-eight percent of Muslims
    older than 46 can’t read or write.
    Though they make up 11 percent of the population, Muslims account for 40 percent of the prison population.
    They hold only 4.9 percent of government jobs and only 3.2 percent of the jobs in the country’s security agencies.”

    Can someone please tell me what does rap have to do the situation of the Indian-Muslims?

    In the “French suburbs”, you will find a large population of mostly Muslims of North-African and West-African origins. Some are immigrants but many are French citizens (descendants of workers brought in after the second world war). They live in “ghetto like” conditions. Below are some if the problems that are in the suburbs:
    High rate of violence and crime,
    High unemployment,
    Violence against women is prevalent,
    Poor living conditions in public housing,
    Poorly maintained buildings,
    Poor public services,
    Bad schools,
    High school drop out rate,
    Constant police harassment,
    Higher rate of divorce and lack of stability in relationships,
    loss of parental authority and the list goes on …

    Doesn’t that sound awfully familiar to inner-city conditions? These problems did not suddenly appear after the advent of rap but were there decades before.

  48. How can you be ignorant enough to not see how music effects people? Music is the most effective thing in most peoples lives. It is thier life, and it defines them. When you are living a crappy environment, and the only stimuli you can reach is via rap music. Then that is what you are going to take.

    Your willing to tell me that a kid will learn from his father that treating woman like garbage is alright..and do that, and that a kid will learn from thier mother that sleeping around, and going from man to man is alright..and do that. But you will deny that a person will listen to what a rapper says and follow thier example?

    You have to remember, people for the most part, are simple, they do things by example. If a person grows up in an environment where the example or method shown to attain money is by selling drugs, then you can be assured that, that person will most likely sell drugs when they get older.

    If a person listens to a rapper all day talking about getting money, living in the ghetto, and having a rebellous attitude…then that is what the will live by, because it is what they know.

    It is foolish to say music doesn’t effect people. Isn’t the purpose of rap music to get a message out to others? Isn’t it true, most of those messages are about dwelling on the situation, rather then getting OUT of the situation? Do you think that rappers send a message, without expecting others to hear it? And maby even accept it and follow it.

    Anyone who knows music..knows that, that is kinda the purpose of lyrics. To send a message. When you listen to a nasheed or mahdeeh…arn’t you listening to it because it has a posative message, calling you to worship Allah, or calling you to enjoyn the good and forbid the evil? Isn’t that what any honest muslim parent would want thier kids to hear?..a message about Worshiping Allah?

    Why do they want thier kids to hear this message? Because they know thier children will take it in, and most likely do it.

    The diffrence between a parental example and a lyrical one has music behind it. but you still here the message..and being human, many will accept it.

    That is common sense.

  49. @anon1234

    “Rap music is an excuse for dysfunctional behaviour, not a cause”

    Would you say bad parenting is an excuse for dysfunctional behaviour? Certainly you won’t say that, correct?

    And if a parent is not around, and the children take other people as role models…such as Lil Wayne or these cats like Lil Jon, or even Three Six as thier mommy and daddy figures….doesn’t that, therefor, mean that rap music impacts the youth dramaticly?

    The point is, you cannot say Rap doesn’t impact youth. Because it does.

    What does the actions and views of the youth produce?…Culture.

    Id say that yes, rap music does effect the culture, it effects the youth, the ones who grow up and change the culture every generation. they change it with thier mannerisms and thier actions. …And thief beliefs.

    Like i mentioned before, children will look up to someone, wether its a parental ‘someone’ or a lyrical ‘someone’ And they will immitate what they see and hear.

    It seems people have forgotten one little effect of this culture…it degrades the mind. You have 20 year olds with 10 year old mentalities.

    Btw, when i say children, i mean people from ages 8-20ish….and sometimes, this culture effects those even older. [and younger]

  50. Margari,

    Isn’t it enough to drive thru any black ghetto and see the correlation between rap and crime? The dress, the lingo, the attitude of the natives looks like a giant rap video. You have to ask yourself: “Is this life imitating art or art imitating life.” Go to your local prison and find me five young African-American criminals from the hood who detest rap music. Rap music IS black youth (criminal) culture. If you don’t listen to rap, then you ain’t black (in that dark twisted world)!

    Don’t Muslims know the significance of poetry (combined with music) on the person’s psyche. The Muslim scholars have written extensive books on the influence of poetry on the human heart. All day long–when they wake up in the morning, in the car, at work (standing on the street corner playing Mr. Pharmacist), on the rap videos when they get home, going to sleep and getting this stuff poured into their minds subliminally–folks who iz ignint as dirt are lissinin’ to: “Shoot a n!gga–and slap a h0e!” To a beat and enchanting rhythms aren’t going to be influence by such conditioning?!?

    Come on folks–let’s keep it real. The rap crap is nothing other than BRAIN WASHING and social engineering. Feed the n!ggas #$%& with pornographic lyrics, giv’em guns, watch them fill the neighborhoods up with feral bastard offspring who slaughter each other over colored rags–and the one’s that survive will give the rednecks at Wackenhut jobs. Didn’t Malcolm break all this down 40+ years ago?!? How dumb can folks be not to X-ray this thing, for it’s as transparent as a hoochie momma’s summertime outfit!

    Simply ask your typical rap addict to leave out listening to the monkey music for three weeks–just as an exercise in self-discipline (you’ll earn the reward of forbidding the evil). I have NEVER seen a rap addict take me up on this issue. The fact these people don’t even have enough self-control to leave the music alone shows the pernicious influence it has on the human psyche.

    American Muslims need to WAKE UP and understand that this savage mushrik gutter culture has NOTHING TO DO WITH THE DIGNITY OF THIS DEEN. Muslims should DISTINGUISH themselves from those who promote haraam and kufr–furthermore, Muslims are OBLIGATED to speak out against those who call people to sinning and transgression. May Allah make us the heroes of humanity and give us the strength to stand up for the Truth.

  51. J,

    I DEFINITELY didn’t say that all evil comes from black men. Have i not repeatedly praised Malcolm X and said that is the starting point for African-Americans? White folks have their own array of moral and spiritual diseases; white folks–as a culture–are not gravitating towards Islam, but are outright hostile to what Allah Revealed, and they take pride in that. This shows the spiritual depravity of that tribe… but white folks ain’t the topic of this thread. Just for the future: please don’t selectively read my posts. I am fair and balanced in my posts.

    On the other hand, to PRETEND that this (c)rap culture is not a significant means by which the youth of black America are influenced–and many totally molded–is simply dishonest. We should be striving to help the black mushrik community–not by condoning their savagery, but by setting a new and higher standard for all Americans (or wherever you may be) to live by–and that is done by calling the people to Islam. Certainly, the Prophet would never have condoned the behavior of these people , and nor should we.

  52. The basis of Abdul Jabbar’s arguments has gone UNANSWERED. None amongst us deny the negative implications of rap music on black culture or the fact that its popularity has gone global. We know the negative impact the music has on ignorant black youths. However, Abdul Jabbar’s has systematically dissected the degenerate nature of several ethnicities i.e. the underworlds of Russians, Irish, Chinese, Italian, Arabs, and Spanish culture and to blame rap music as somehow being responsible for such degeneration is preposterous.

    The obvious answer is each and every ethnicity or people have developed a degenerate underworld, in which a minority of their most ignorant people fall victim to.

    What’s next the love of Mafia Movies and the Sopranos are to blame for the Mafia with Italians, and can we now extrapolate that to blame them for the organized criminal element of all ethnicities, surely you are under estimating the degenerate nature of all KUFFAR societies.

    Lastly, despite the direction of the comments on this blog, the African-Americans have been enslaved, segregated, given substandard education, housing and purposely and systemically targeted for drugs.. etc….etc… etc so what’s the excuse for all the other ethnicities?

    Lets remember, no matter how affluent or sophisticated a country is, whether its economically, militarily, or technologically, if they don’t believe that Allah (ta ala) is God and Muhammad (sas) is his Messenger, they are in a state of JAHLIYYAH and without God-given guidance these societies will degenerate with 100% accuracy, without instigation of another Kuffar society or culture.

    May Allah (ta ala) guide us all. AMEEN

  53. ASA,

    That is a good question. I’m not sure if the FOI/MGT had training manuals or not. I did hear that they had lesson books and “actual facts,” but I heard that most of its contexts were mixture of myths and scientific facts pulled from Britannica.

    I’m sure some of the elders, who used to be in the NOI would know if there were any such manuals.

    For clarification, I was not inferring that we have some type of quasi-paramilitary unit under the “sunnah.” I was referring to orientation classes regarding responsibilities towards family and society within the teachings of the Qur’an and Sunnah to inform our practice of Islam within the American context.

    These classes are no less important than having fiqh classes about ibaadaat that masajid have.

  54. One of the things that I have admired about the NOI, is that they never tolerated brothers doing foul things like cheating, lying, and womanizing. A brother would get kicked out in a minute. Some end up in the random small ghetto mosque or a new-agey sufi mosque. I’ve seen more than one former NOI brother have a free for all in mosques that tolerate lack of discipline, using their dawa sticks whenever they can.

  55. Swathmoor:
    Your statements resonante with somewhat of a racist tone. Just letting you know. “Monkey Music”, “Black Savagery?” Yeah, I’m really going to take anything YOU say seriously.

  56. Swarthmoor,

    Kudos for what you have said and how you have maintained your composure. You know you are hitting the subject where it counts when people start ascribing things to you that you did not say.

    No one claimed that rap music was the source of the issue, rather it is a symptom of a diseased culture.

    Rap music does not make Arabs (mostly likely North Africans, not Arabs) gang rape women in Paris, but it certainly DOES egg them on. The problem here is that some people are getting very defensive about the situation rather than sitting down and talking about the situation rationally. The point is that Rap music, and the scene around it, is universally negative. It doesn’t matter whether you head to Paris, Marseilles, New York or Los Angles, rap and the culture it breeds around it is a death trap.

    I had to laugh when someone asked if The Sopranos was getting American Italians to go out and kill people. I guess if Italian Americans watched 5-6 hours of The Sopranos a day and acted out their life in accordance with it I would agree, but to bring this up is to actually work to divert what we are talking about.

    Lets look at someone like Snoop Dog. The man was pretty much an unknown outside of rap scenes until he was charged with murder. It was this murder charge that poll vaulted this guy to fame. Yeah, you heard right, a murder charge is what gave this guy fame, wealth and everything he has now. What does it say about a culture and a music scene when a murder charge makes you rich? In this case it isn’t even about African American culture, this is about American culture. A MURDER CHARGE makes you famous and a millionaire? What is WRONG with us as a people?

    I heard the other day about a rapper in prison for a serious crime, don’t remember which, but he was recording his new CD over the phone in prison. Pundits said that the fact that he was in prison doing the recording would probably make the record a big seller. Imagine that, being a felon, being involved in murders, drug crimes and the like makes you famous?

    Look at R Kelly! The man was on tape doing some really nasty things to very young girls, yet it hasn’t hurt his career at all. If anything, his sales have gone UP since the news went out.

    This isn’t entirely about the African American scene, this is about America as a whole and how some of the most vile behavior can actually be used as a selling point and make you VERY rich.

    We live in a very sick society and it is only getting worse. Some people when confronted with uncomfortable facts just want to run or change the subject. I love the old playground rebuttal being used here: “I know you are, but what am I”?

  57. Abu Sinan,

    Methinks Swarthmoor is a socket puppet for another poster actually :-)

    His/Her writing bears a marked likeness to another’s :-)

  58. When you guys start talking about the “Human Scum” and “Savagery” of the CEO at BMG records, or the degenerate nature of Sumner Redstone and Viacom for their perpetuation of videos, or the base vile sleeze at Warner Music group, maybe I’ll start taking you seriously.

    When you start shouting out Clive Davis, founder of Arista records or Jimmy Lovine, founder of interscope for the lowlife scum that they are…maybe I’ll give you some credibility. I mean we are concerned about the people who actually produce, distibute, control, and profit from this vile degenerate “black” music, right?

    So lets talk about the degenerate scum bag low life white boys selling this filth like the sleezy high priced white trash that they are, aye?

    Why don’t we start there and talk about the affects of hip hop on the global community.

    Yeah…its Snoop Dog’s fault.

    This is almost becoming laughable.

  59. “One of the things that I have admired about the NOI, is that they never tolerated brothers doing foul things like cheating, lying, and womanizing”

    ….except Elijah Muhammad

  60. We don’t talk about record companies, because they arn’t the ones who write the rap. They arn’t the ones who are even relevent at this point. Sure, they may be doing negative things, but they arn’t the ones people want to grow up to be like.

    Secondly, if i recall, this topic wasn’t about italian indians or african muslims….it was about the ‘ghetto tribal culture’ Which is something that, and its no secret. Developed in the black community. And in that, i am refering to the Black American community….in all honesty, africans..real africans, act less savage than this. The Vietnamese [also known as the niggers of the asian world[no offense to any vietnamese posting or reading…but it is the truth..]] are less savage than this.

    No one said rap caused this eniter problem….What ever Allah wills, wether it is good or bad…it what will be. A leaf doesn’t fall, lest Allah wills for it. But, this rap music, is a method used to destroy the youth. How do we know this? Because we have a big lab called america, and a test dish called the ghetto .

    This isn’t about racism, stop pulling out that old, illrelevant card. Don’t talk about slavery either…that is illrelevent and history. Old black men, who grew up with real racism. Do not act like this. The people we are talking about, probably do not know if the ameircan version fo slavery was 200 years ago..or 2000 years ago. they probably don’t even know they are from africa…or where africa is on a map. They have likely never seen The Klan, they probably don’t know what the Aryan Nation is…racism, is not part of it.

    If you want to talk about racism, talk about these clown ass preachers, who claime to help the black community, yet only help when its a black baby that has been stolen. Yet is no where to be found when little white Alice was kidnapped. Thats a good example to set for the black youth isn’t it? Only appearing when the issue involves black people? A sure fire way to develop a them/us relationship where it is not needed.

    Really, this ‘racism/slavery’ excuse is getting old…and is completely illrelevent.As it effects no human being living today.

    If you wish to talk about now..the thing YOU are refering to as racism. Then you need to stop calling it was it is not…its not racism, its simply social engineering. That isn’t even done by white people. Its done by a rich arrogant people who have been on this earth some 5000 years and have killed most of the prophets, including our beloved Rasululah [May Allah Raise His Rank]. You give white people too much credit, when they are the ones who are getting played the most. By being gullableified [yes, its not a word] into feeling so sorry for everyone else “because they are such a bad race of people”, that they are UNABLE to see any harm. If you want to know why the Uncle Tom apologetic movement exists…white people.

    But anyways, i myself have went WAY offtopic…

    Racism…and certainly not Slavery…do not in almost any way effect the youth of today. Television/Music/Media….the main source of input into thier brains…is what effects them. Being blasted with propaganda is what caused them to be the way they are…

    Look at Rwanda…a lead put out propaganda about a tribe of people, and another tribe wiped them out, killed every single one of them, because of a few lies that a leader told them. Hell, not to sound cliche…but hitler, one guy, used propaganda to get an antier nation of people to hate the jews. There is a guy in North Korea..a short fellow with a crazy hair style…named Kimberly. Who has brainwashed an entier nation of people into thinking that the world is out to get them, and that thier ‘dear leader’ will protect them.

    And honestly, if you REALLY want to look at the effects of propaganda, through entertainment and media…simply look at india….millions of people worshiping monkeys, rats and cockroaches. Starving themselves to put food into a temple for rats to gang up on and devour. Don’t the Gurus tell them they will be reincarnated? Thats a lie. Don’t they worship people, humans, who lived long long ago, that they have, over the years, diefied in thier own mind? Wasn’t it propaganda that made the people build the first statues in the time of Idris? And wasn’t it propaganda that made them next generation worship them? Causeing the first human kufr?

    All of that, is caused by, person, who is charsimatic…that gets people to listen to him, and people, in thier nature..are followers, and they will follow. People do not look at the qualities or beleifs or agenda or a person, they see a charismatic person, whos word is like honey.

    Of course rappers effect the youth. If a preacher can convince his congragation that he is a prophet, and that they need to go to wako and hold up in a base and kill that he can write his book….then a rapper can certainly convince an already messed up mind that its ok to sell cocain and smack women.

    Whew, that was alot.

  61. Abdul Jabbar,

    When you start throwing terms like “white boy” into the conversation you out yourself for the racist tendencies you still hold onto.

    Anyway, I’ll be the first to condemn the fat cats in the corporate offices who make money off of these scumbags, and there is no other word for them. Scumbags……it is what they are. Doesnt matter whether it is Snoop, Kid Rock or Enimem.

    The problem is that these “white boys” at the corporate offices did not create the music, they did not create the ghetto from which it came. They did nothing more than to exploite something which was already there.

    They are pimps, but what they are pimping wasnt their creation, and now with the rappers themselves putting the music out, the formerly pimped are now doing the pimping.

    You can put your head in the sand, but it doesnt solve the issues. The problems would be there with or without the music companies.

    Now that I have condemned the “white boys” can you bring yourself to finally address the issue at hand or will you try to pass it off on something else again.

    The FACT is that the rap music is all about low life, drug dealing, often murderous scum. You can try to blame that on whomever you whish, but that does little to address the issues that created the problem in the first place.

    That is the one thing I respected NoI about. They certainly blamed those high up who benefited from the nonsense, but they sure didnt run from their responsibility to try and clean it up.

  62. Ismael,

    For now, i don’t want to go far into the situation in India, but let me say that the decline of the conditions of the Muslims in India i would say are inversely related to their decline in obedience to Allah. The fact that we are being humiliated by a bunch of mushriks there is because of our lack of knowledge of traditional Islamic scholarship–and the implementation thereof. Poverty–in and of itself is not the problem. The Sahabahs (vast majority of them) were poor–yet they were the best of humanity after the Prophets.

  63. “….except Elijah Muhammad”
    Hahaha, Musa, I was going to write that. Yusuf Bey’s many women at Your Black Muslim Bakery was a running joke. But then again, he was kicked out of NOI

    I wonder why all the Middle Class white kids who buy Eminem haven’t tried to murder their mom and wife. I wonder why they all haven’t started gang banging. Why is rap music disproportionately affecting disenfranchized youth, but 50 cent is virtually harmless for Tom in the suburbs?

    I am not arguing that popular cultural productions doesn’t have an effect people. Movies, magazines, television, music, does shape people conceptions about manhood, femininity, relationships, adulthood, and respect for authority. Music is a powerful force, and I’m deeply saddened that so much of African American cultural production is negative or completely lacks substance. But at the same time, this music reflects the social conditions that it arose from. I think that healthy homes, education and development, and hope is far more powerful than some fly by night popular rapper.

    Also, I think it is important to discern the difference between positive hip hop and rap. I know for me artists like Poor Righteous teachers, Rakim, Brand Nubian and KMD (even though many were not orthodox but 5%ers) dropped seeds that helped sprout my interest in Islam. Artists like Common, Mos Def, and Lupe Fiasco still inspire.

  64. Actionable,

    We live in an era of general moral degeneration. This always the moor proves the Prophet truthful for he said:

    “Each succeeding generation would get worse (until the return of Jesus).”

    So that is just the way it is. In regards to the reprobate cultures of other people, with the exception of the the Italian mafia culture, ain’t nobody tryna imitate them. However, you have an enormous number of youth (Muslim youth, too) who are imitating this gutter culture rap thing.

    You have low lives in all cultures, but USUALLY the mainstream of that culture censures anti-social/sociopathic behaviors. However, with hip hop, we find African-Americans–and even AFRICAN-AMERICAN MUSLIMS–defending it!!! As degenerate as white America is, it doesn’t make heroes out of inbred Ozarkian meth-heads (at least not in its mainstream culture). And even if white America did make heroes out of such people, that is no reason for black Americans (much less Muslims) to do the same with their own retrograde misfits.

    As Muslims, we know that the external circumstances of a person are largely the reflection of the internal circumstances of a person. Black people have been getting humiliated and degraded because they OBVIOUSLY AIN’T DOING SOMETHING RIGHT. The lowlife degenerate underclass exists because of their diseased out hearts. It is our duty, as Muslims, to set an example for such people and uplift them. But if the Muslims are imitating them, have the same values as them, and suffer from the same pathologies as them, then who is going to save these people?

  65. Dawud,

    I plan on having some long talks in a couple of weeks with some (real) Sunni Muslims about what they used to do in the so-called Nation of Islam. I was actually talking to a Brother yesterday about the need for “marriage counseling” classes before getting married–in particular, for the youth. The Nation has a lot that we could benefit from (when given the correct perspective).

  66. Abdul-Jabbar,

    People who have no diginity–breed their offspring at a 70% clip OOW, willing wallow in ignorance, walk around nekkid, tatted up, and covered with body piercings and take pride in all of that are like the savages of old.

    We all need to be clear, when Uthman Dan Fodio was taking care of business in West Africa, he did not look at his idol and demonic jinn worshipping neighbors as his “beautiful black brothers.” He saw them for what they were: mushriks. He was clear that he was not one of them, and that “his people,” i.e., the Muslims were not “them.” I am confident that Uthman dan Fodio had his griots compose poetry to humiliate the pagan tribes and their revolting practices and cultures–just as the Prophet did. Uthman dan Fodio invited the savages to Islam. Many accepted. Some did not, and those who didn’t, well we know what happened to them. Obviously, Muslims today in the West can’t do what Uthman Dan Fodio did as a last resort, but we still can make a CLEAR DISTINCTION BETWEEN US AND THEM (the mushriks/their culture).

  67. Between latently racist white converts and ignorant racist imimigrants…I’m starting to see the importance of the MANA Conference more and more…Subhanallah

    The sheer IGNORANCE and racist spew on this thread really says alot about the SICK HEART of many Muslims…

    I’m going to need to regroup and address all this crap piece by piece…

  68. Abdul-Jabbar,

    Let’s be honest, as long as the black mushriks want to dwell in a world of emotionalism and irrationality and don’t have any notions of self denial, self-control, or a concept of dignity, there will always be someone who will come around to exploit them. How else would people like Jesse “The Bastard Baby Momma Drama” Jackson, and Al “The Conk Headed Poverty Pimp” Sharpton make their living?

    Abdul-Jabbar, this ain’t grammar school–and ain’t nobody sleepin’ on Sumner Rothstein and the “eyes wide shut/pieces don’t fit” crew gittin’ their groove on over in the Grove. But honestly, what can you practically do against the powers-that-be when the masses lack morality and self control? It is UNLIKELY that the elite will flip (i.e., become Muslim) in any significant numbers. What Muslims can do is stand up, and set an example for the black mushrik (and everyone else), for he (the black mushrik and his tribe) is looking for something, and he tends, as a whole, not to be out right hostile to Islam. Invite these people to Islam; make it easy for them; and at the same time, know that there has to be a very low tolerance of jahiliyyah kinds of behavior (and zero tolerance for such behavior once they are established in the Religion).

    The human devils are what they are. You just need to be able to identify them, hip people to the script and the machinations these demons employ–while watching your back and relying on Allah. The black mushrik tribes, on the other hand, have historically shown their sympathies towards Islam–and i know that for i used to be one of the savages.

    Allah is the One Who grants the guidance and success!

  69. Abdul Jabbar writes “The sheer IGNORANCE and racist spew”…….

    And more than a little is coming from YOU!

    That is my rap for the day.

    Care to talk about “white boys” anymore? It is interesting how you can call others racist, but fail to see your own racism.

    That is all good and fine. Blame everything on the white man. Doesnt bother me or anyone else at all. It also doesnt do a thing to solve the issues in that segment of society.

    Instead of playing the blame game, why not try and do something about it? Calling people racist names will not help.

    It is time for you to step up and stop blaming people and talk about what the community in question can do to solve it’s own issues.

  70. Aziza,

    I will readily admit that it was my listening to the (so-called) Poor Righteous Teachers, Rakim, Public Enemy, and X-Clan that that further piqued my interest in Islam after reading Malcolm X. I was convinced rap would be the means that black America would finally come into consciousness. No… black America decided to choose gutter gangsta rap over the relatively positive messages that could be found in so-called “conscious rap.” At that point, i knew that something was deeeeeeeeply amiss with black culture itself.

    At the end of that phase, when i was struggling with my music addiction and the related Religious judgement, i was down to PRT (for their inner city but visionary outlook) and Rakim (for his metaphorical/metaphysical style), and my Sade, Anita Baker, and Teena Marie records, i had to realize what little value ANY of this music held (besides the guilt i felt for listening to it) and how it was an impediment to my Religion.

    Even in these allegedly “positive rappers,” you still had the glorification of fornication–in the least–and you still had an inconsistent message. And worse than that, these people were calling people to outright KUFR and confusing myself–and many others–about Islam.
    Much the same can be said of these so-called “positive” rappers today. Besides the Religious judgment concerning the musical instruments themselves, these rappers also have kufr in their songs, and their lyrics portray enormities (in particular, fornication) in a positive light. The Prophet said:

    “Whoever invites another to misguidance takes the sins of all those who follow him without lessening the sin of the individuals who committed the act.”

    Those rappers who are considered “positive”–especially those who consider themselves Muslims–need to learn about Islam in the proper method, so they don’t slip into sins, and so they can deliver the Message of Islam clearly and consistently (i.e., without internal contradictions or contradicting the Deen). There is GREAT POTENTIAL thru this medium (of rap/poetry) to reach the masses, so i don’t include this under what i am referring to the gutter ghetto culture that prevails today in the hood.

  71. Abu Sinan,

    I appreciate your fair reading of my posts. As one person said, the folks on the street corner are imitating their favorite rap stars and not the corporate media moguls. The entire system is foul–but that doesn’t make rap (and you know i am referring to this mainstream stuff) any less foul. It is so deeply dishonest to pretend that rap music is not influencing the behavior of the youth. And when we talk about MANY African-American inner city youth, rap music defines and delimits them. It is beyond me why any Muslim would attempt to defend that which OPENLY PROMOTES AND GLORIFIES THE HARAAM.

    May Allah protect this Ummah.

  72. Abu Sinan,
    I never new that “white boy” or “white girl” was a racist term. Sometimes I feel like you’re so busy going for the jugular in your arguments with folks that you miss looking for common ground. Let us chill out on calling each other racists in order to discredit the other party. This goes for you too Abdul Jabbar. It is really counter productive.

    Both of you seem to agree that the problems predated hip hop. I don’t think that Abdul Jabbar was saying that African Americans don’t need to clean up house, but that social conditions have eroded values. I think it is going a bit too far to accuse him of saying that he wants to make excuses.

    Also, Abu Sinan, there are plenty of hip hop artists who don’t produce garbage. In fact, I’d argue that there are more positive hip hop artists that aren’t signed. But big labels put big money behind gangster rap because that has a ready made audience. Sure gangster rap received sanction from the thugs. But the biggest consumers of gangster rap are young white males in the suburbs. These kids are more interested in gangster fantasies fully of hyper violence and big bootey ‘hos than hearing some uplift album about respecting black women and giving back to the community. In fact, the most popular rap artists are often considered garbage by most real B-boys and B-girls.

    I don’t want to make any assumptions about how much you know about hip hop or rap. The worst thing that happened to hip hop was when it was commercialized. Terrible artists get big deals and are spun on the radio incessantly. The garbage that constantly spews on Clear Channel, which hold the majority market share, almost becomes a mantra. Positive artists have a hard time getting in rotation, nor will Clear Channel broadcast political songs. But Akon and T-Pain can sing the most indecent disgusting and vacuous songs with no problem. I found it disturbing to hear little children sing “I just wanna ummm you, no kissin or huggin girl you gotta a husband who loves you…” How can they let that air?

    So, when you talk about distribution, broadcasting, and even providing incentives for indecency? The ignoramouses are making terrible music, but there are people who got solid education, took ethics, and likely go to church who make a killing off this music.

    I used to work in college radio, was in the underground hip hop scene, and the non-commercial hip hop that I grew up to loving is much different than the picture you paint about rap.

  73. Swarthmoor,

    The pre-marriage counseling would be a great service to the community. Actually, the rights of the male and female in marriage are items that should be introduced to the youth even during as soon as they hit the age of puberty in my opinion.

    On another note, I cannot resist in asking what makes the people who you had this discussion with “(real) Sunnis” and who are the people who claim to follow the “Sunnah” but are not “(real) Sunnis?”

  74. The muslims of the time of the salaf, waged war against the kufar, because one of them, tried to touch a muslim woman….they went to war over that.

    The muslims of today, cannot even recognize harm, and many, cannot even recognize kufr.

  75. I don’t know about this “blame it all on hip-hop” theory. I think it’s a combo of things that increases the masses likelihood of staying a permanent underclass. Hip-Hop is just one of the many factors in the equation.

    If you take it away we would still have massive issues facing the community. I’m only 30 but the men were leaving the homes and their children behind long before hip-hop came to the front. The drug problem in DC was up and running smoothly long before hip-hop came into the realm.

    I tend to agree with Margari on this one. The family units destruction needs to be addressed more because we see whites buying and supporting these hip-hop artist in larger amounts but they aren’t suffering at the same levels we are. I think a solid family structure has a lot to do with their success.

    The fact still remains as long as corporate media is paying people to buffoon themselves they’ll always be people in line to take that check regardless of race. We see many talented artist with real musical skills, passed up for record contracts all the time in favor of someone else who will most likely promote random retardation on the people. We see this trend more so directed at us than any other race; this goes for movies as well. When most of us are yearning for movies and music with more substance and that displays the full array of our people; instead we get 90% buffoonery and maybe 1 decent new artist every other year. The truth is the masses pay to see us buffoon ourselves and always will.

    Even if large amounts of blacks stop buying the music/movies it will still do VERY VERY well amongst the masses that are very comfortable seeing us that way and have never been supportive of shows like the Cosby Show, A Different World or artist like Jill Scott.

    When my cousin was shipped off to Iraq I cut off my cable and that’s been over 4 years. I’ve moved all the way to New Mexico, and there is only 1 other black family on my block. I called myself getting my family as far away from urban life as possible would be the best but still bare witness to buffoon behavior no matter how much I try to run from it. I can’t watch football without the background music promoting buffoonery. The commercials are filled with buffoons, the talk shows promote retardation and like Abu Sinan said; American society at every level promotes this Roman like mindless “entertainment” on us all. A Solid family structure is the best way to combat this type of bombardment on our youth. Hip hop didn’t destroy the family unit; it was already broken 2 decades before that when drugs flooded the community. However, hip hop is certainly one of the elements promoting the “crabs in the barrel” syndrome. It’s defiantly operating at warp speed with mandatory over time and the negative forces in it should be shunned at cost.

    Ma Salaama

  76. Dawud,

    When i used the phrase “real Sunnis” i believe i was referring to folks who follow traditional Islamic scholarship and not folks, like the followers of W.D. Mohammed. Sometimes people assume that if a person has left the Nation of NOT Islam, then the person is a member of the Wally World.

    The whole marriage thing/taking a family thing needs to be re-evaluated. For one, the men and women need to know the rights they hae over each other. At the same time, marriage needs to be made easy and accessible to those young people who need it (to save them from falling into fornication). This means rethinking how the youth are educated, and what kind of skills they can gain so they can earn halal livings to support themselves and their families. To be honest, people need to look at the Mexican model. Times are not going to get easier in this country, and we need to not raise our kids thinking they are going to live in some kind of fantasy world of an American dream.

  77. Aziza,

    If someone referred to your dad as a “black boy,” i think you’d take umbrage. But that’s just me. Regarding the music thing, there is a MAJOR difference between whites and blacks. White culture is not defined by its lowest elements–or by its music stars. Furthermore, there are PLENTY of young white males who HATE HIP HOP. White people who listen to rap do not think that Eminem defines “whiteness,” but there is a multitude of young black males who think that Half-a-Buck defines “blackness.”

    Also, whites are the major consumers of traditional black music (jazz/blues). Whites are the major consumers of MOST forms of music–and that is largely because they are the vast majority. White folks have a more diversified interests than young black males–and whites read more and are generally better educated. They also don’t suffer from debilitating inferiority complexes, like young black males do.

    Lastly, the whole problem regarding this rap-crap is to apply the Religious judgment:


  78. Abdul-Jabbar,

    One’s approach to the da`wah varies with the potential audience. Obviously, if i am talking to a mushrik trying to persuade him to become Muslim, then i am not going to tell him every hukm in the Deen pertaining to his status. However, amongst Muslims, we all should know the status of these people and not get teary-eyed over folks–who if they don’t change–are merely fuel for the Fire.

  79. Margari,

    I think the term “white boy” is racist. It should not be a part of what is supposed to be a decent discussion between Muslims.

    I am sure we could all agree that the term “black boy” when used to describe adult black males would be offensive and I put forward that the same terms used to describe white men is insulting as well.

    If some people cannot discuss this topic without resorting to pointing out people’s colour in a demeaning fashion they should avoid talking and letting loose their own personal demons/fitna.

    If you look at the posts it is clear that I was not the one who brought up race first. It was another person who has a clear track record of using racial terms and using race baiting tactics.

    As for going for the jugular, if anyone called me “white boy” in person, that would be the least of what they would get.

    Cool heads are better sure, but when someone makes what I consider racial comments I will not sit by and be quiet.

    I dont use demeaning racial descriptions and terms and I expect they not be used in my direction.

    See, that is one thing that really pisses me off about the internet, people doing things on-line they would never do in person. You see a lot of that here. I conduct myself and say the same things in person as I do on-line.

    I can guarantee you no one would be calling me “white boy” in person. Would you expect a man to sit and do nothing when called a “boy” no matter what colour is in front of it?

    People who throw around terms like this from the safety of their keyboards are of the same variety that throw around terroristic type threats on the internet. Cowards.

    If I sound annoyed I am.

  80. The family structure broke up when the society and government told women they didn’t need a man.

    You ask any sane and normal person, who has been around black women his whole life…and he will tell you one thing for sure…”I don’t need no man to run my house” is the most common phrase and mentality that exists amoung black women.

    Alot of people probably don’t want to hear it, but i believe alot of the effects of the Womans Rights movement, and this femenist bullshit, is what contributed ALOT to the breaking up of the family. They put in the minds of alot of women that they should be the male role in the relationship. As a result, you have female who are almost completely against having a male around who is the dominate in the relationship.

    I think this much is true, given the fact that ‘the ghetto’ and ‘single woman with children’ goes hand in hand. Now, i’m not saying its only females, because at the same time, you have ‘the powers that be’ trying to immasculate the male in the society. And alot of times, the men either don’t know how to deal with children, or outright don’t want them, coupled with the mediatainment, you get a male who generaly doesn’t know how to deal with a relationship, but further more, doesn’t want one, and even more, thinks that is the way it is supposed to be. When most of the females in the society don’t want a man or a dominate figure in the family, and the men don’t want to be that figure, or don’t know how….you get the current Black Community, but this isn’t just a black thing, its happening amoung the white community aswell, slowly but surely.

    And really, when it is all said and done, you can refer to what a man called Carlin said: “The people in charge, do not care about you…they do not CARE ABOUT YOU, what they want, is an obediant worker, and a mindless consumer.” Thats what the have made for themselves in this expriment called ameirca. And that is what they have, and what it is.

    I partly agree with Aziza, that the family structure is a big part of it, but i also believe, the destruction of it..was not an accident.

  81. Swath Moor

    brother, the term ‘savage’ is not, as you know, the same as ‘mushrik’.

    When used to describe a generation, from a specific ethic and economic group, and online, with a world audience, among people, who, before Islam, were listening to racist Muscic (or belonging to racist cults) then, my dear brother, we are being irresponsible.

    There are brothers here still working out the ‘race’ thing and, frankly, have problems working it out. We do not assist them by making reference to people as ‘savages’. I respect you as my brother, so I’m going to make few clarifications.

    The relationship between muscic and social practice is not hard to make. It is reductive if we exaggerate the connection.
    Rap muscic has evolved and to take its present context as exhausting the ‘creative’ possibilities of black urban muscic is simply wrong. What is emerging here is not unlike what happened to the muscic scene in Kingston (Jamaica) or Port of Spain (Trinidad). The ‘rude boy’ era was castigated from Pulpits for creating a generation of ‘nihilist’. Behind the muscic was ‘protest’ and from the rude boy scene, from the Concerete Jungle of Kingston, emerged Bob Marley and the Rasta lyrics.

    Today that’s all past; now ragga, with its denigrating lyrics, preaches the same ‘tune’ as ‘rap’. It does not mean we must decribe what is happening in Kingston now as ‘savagery’. That brother, is not ‘analysis’. It is ‘prejudice’.

    Finally, I’m not sure if the analysis of Usman Dan Fodia is entirely correct. It is true, as you correctly noted, that he made ‘jihad’ against the ‘mushrik’. But his identity was tied-up with a Hausa-Fulani State-Structures and, if not with the Hausa, certainly with the ‘fulani’, that identity would have been distinct from modern terms of ‘black’ West African identity. It is also clear that muscic was central to sufi Qadariyy traditions in West Africa and I’m not one to suppose, as it has been argued, that a ‘jihad’ is a ‘jihad’. They must be contextually understood.

    Once understood, we can draw better analogises with the past and future and before assuming the urban black Western diaspora is responsible for replicating the issues of 18th century West Africa.

  82. Abu Sinan,
    Maybe its me, but I do sense a bit of defensiveness. I missed the part where Abdul Jabbar called you white boy. This is not me jumping to anyone’s side. I’m just perplexed by your reaction. Abdul Jabbar wrote, “So lets talk about the degenerate scum bag low life white boys selling this filth like the sleezy high priced white trash that they are, aye?”You called him a racist because of that statement, or was it something else.

    I didn’t get the tone that he was calling record executives boys in the racist way that white supremacists used to call grown black men. The roots of calling Black men boys is based upon notions that Black people were infantile. It just doesn’t hold the same stigma or punch. While you may feel like he personally affronted you, I don’t think you have to take it that way. I guess I should call 1/2 the world racist for calling me a black girl at one time or other. I’m a grown ass woman. Anybody calling me a black girl to my face should get checked. And I should have punched out that Egyptian waiter for calling me the “Black one,” he could have used “tan one” as a politically correct euphemism.

  83. Also folks, since when has radical feminism penetrated the hood and broke down marriages? Ask any sister strolling down Martin Luther King Blvd. in any hood in America if she heard of Audre Lorde, the answer is likely to be “Who the %$&@ is that?”

  84. And a note on Uthman Dan Fodio’s jihad. He waged jihad against other Muslims, nominal Muslims who allied with non-Muslims and enslaved Muslims. These nominal Muslims forbade other Muslims from wearing turbans and veils, from being able to give dawa. The enslaving other Muslims was the final straw. Uthman Dan Fodio’s leaders were largely Fulbe. The Hausa peasants joined because they were tired of the oppression of the Hausa rulers. These rulers did mix practices, but they people who professed Islam and the majority of the people didn’t understand Islam until Dan Fodio and his descendants created education compaigns. Uthman Dan Fodio looked at to al Maghili, a 15th century scholar who advised Muhammad Askia (founder of the Songhay) that he could wage jihad against other Muslims who didn’t practice their faith correctly, to justify his wars against the Hausa rulers and the sultanate of Bornu. You will see two traditions dating back from the Songhay period, the Suwarian tradition which tolerated lax and syncretic Muslims, and the Umarian tradition which waged jihad against other Muslim states, pagan societies and European colonists.

  85. Don’t ask them about the person, ask them about the context. someone doesn’t have to know or even hear a femenist, to know about femenism.

    Its not that a person has to know about the Klan, to know there is racism.

    Maby its just the regions, but, here, in memphis and the south, it doesn’t matter wether some of these women have seen or heard of a femenist, they still express the same mentality these femensists do. Not to mention its subliminaly projected through almost all major forms of media.
    This anti-male mentality is there. Read any common news article, that talks about the female victim, and the villianous man.

    There isn’t a comercial, tv show, radio show, left out in popular media that even remotely supports the male postion in the family. Look at the general view of marrige people have in this age…its astounding…ask any man and he will likely spew something to the likes of ‘The wife wins all the arguements” or “She runs the house”, “or Her house Her rules”, that is the general mentality of men in todays society. if a man even once tries to go against any of that stuff, he is labeled as oppressive to the woman. Oh, and of course, don’t ask your wife to wear hijab, or you will catch a criminal charge.

  86. Abu Sinan,

    You have some nerve to claim to be “annoyed” when you no doubt due to your ignorance of other cultures stated.

    “The FACT is that the rap music is all about low life, drug dealing, often murderous scum.”

    Oh really, so have you listened to “all” rap music to draw this conclusion? Or maybe you’ve listened to rap music from the course of the 30 yrs it’s been in existance?

    Perhaps if you bothered to turn off the “radio” and sought other avenues of obtaining rap music then you wouldn’t make such “biased and bigoted lies” remarks no you don’t have to like the music, but don’t make lies to build your case.

    rap is/was just one fascet of an urban culturual expression called hip-hop.

    hip-Hop originally actually brought mostly black and latino (and a few white) youth together to express themselves artistically and to compete without gangs and violence. And they often used this as a vehicle to express social commentary on the plight of those in the inner city as well.

    Again I could careless about the garbage that’s being promoted on the radio.

    But the REAL FACT of the matter is that was more balanced in its content and subject matter and the majority of rap was not the filth it is today until the big record companies ran by white men began to market it to white youth in the surburbs.

    Yes, many of the images that are pushed now are low class. Again just like with crack addicts most shown are black (new jack city comes to mind) but the truth is the real crack money comes from the surburbs.

    also Abu Sinan, I don’t see how your thinking is much different from rappers that exploit women when in a another post you basically said that a muslim sister who was raped will know better next time or something to that effect.

    That sounds like the same logic of some rappers who say “we are not talking about all women just the ones who put themselves out there”.

    I object to their argument and I object to yours we are muslim men and we should up hold the dignity of women even when they don’t

    swarthmoor do you post using unlisted?

    “White folks have a more diversified interests than young black males–and whites read more and are generally better educated. They also don’t suffer from debilitating inferiority complexes, like young black males do. ”

    where are you gathering this data? what are you basing this on? man you are lost.

    look I don’t care to which race you belong, in America if you are poor you are going to have problems with insecurity or one of the many other complexes

    why do you think that so often white males snap and go binge killing, if they are so well adjusted?

    at the end of the day the blame game will get us know where, what we have to do is come up with alternatives which is what i thought the Umar’s blog was about in the first place.

  87. Ok Jami,

    I am with you. I went over the top and gotta keep in mind the audience. I gotta admit, i am taken a little aback by folks feeling the need to defend the obviously PERNICIOUS effects of this rap/hip-hop culture. And i just have a hard time connecting the dignity of this Deen and how folks are living in the “hood.”

    Jami, i am not trying to put you on the spot; i am simply curious: have you spent any extended time in the Northeast American ghettos? “Savage” is an appropriate term to describe life there. There is a considerable difference even here in the South where there are PLENTY of black folks, but their behavior isn’t as jacked up as the folks in the Northern slums.

    These ghettos are jacked up through and through, and sadly, the Muslims living therein have a difficult time distinguishing themselves from the non-Muslims. I can give you a list of the number of young Muslims that i know who are locked up or buried because of ghetto life. It’s a dead end–literally. And we need to put it in the minds of our youth to look down and denigrate those who choose to live such lives. Belittling unacceptable behavior can go a long way in preventing others from doing it.

    Regarding the music thing, i have said several times that i am talking about mainstream rap music. And from the music i hear from people when they are driving down the street, it isn’t anything REMOTELY positive. Nonetheless, i do firmly believe there is TREMENDOUS potential with the “spoken word” and halal instruments as a means to call people to Islam. I have my own thoughts on this–but, again, that isn’t what folks are defending here.

    Regarding Uthman Dan Fodio, he was dealing with people in a tribal structure. African-Americans don’t have a tribal structure–often, they don’t even know who their fathers are. That being the case, AA Muslims need to set Islam as their identity first and foremost. AA Muslims need to make it clear that they have little in common with the predominate ghetto culture. By setting an example–through obedience to Allah–this can act as the greatest form of da`wah to both black and white and other Americans.

  88. Aziza,

    “Radical” feminism penetrated the hood by way of those black women who went off to college, took their “Women’s Studies” courses, and now are involved in community activism or setting policy for black America. Furthermore, just go to the “Urban Literature” section of any bookstore, and you’ll see all kinds of books targeting black women with titles like: “How to Get a Man to have Your Chile” or “Loquacious Don’t Need No Man,” on the shelves. These books (whether the books of feminist or the Harlequin Hood Romance books), like the rap stuff, simply further contribute to the moral decay of the society.

  89. Swarthmoor

    I respect your perspective and I think highly of your analytical skills, however based on your extremely exaggerate posts its seems if we take Rap Music out of the world everyone would become Muslim and live happily ever after.

    With all the major problems, we have in the WORLD rap music does not even make the ranking.

    With all the problems in the Black Community, does rap music even make the top ten?

    I have contempt for rap music as well but brother how about we treat the disease and not the symptom ! Its not about defending it, it about prioritizing, I mean did our beloved Prophet (SAS)wage war on Jahliyah Poetry (which was filled with idolic talk) before the actual idols, themselves. How ironic it is the Islamic Arabic Grammarians, study Jahli poetry to determine the classical meaning of words.




    Main points from ‘POST’

    * number of Muslim youth from broken homes who are angry and teetering on the edge of disaster
    * practical things we can do to help
    * Muslim youth especially those whose parents were a part of “movements” that gave them false hopes of an Islamic Utopia
    * a generation of Muslims in America who have either grown-up in Muslim schools, been home schooled by Muslim parents, have grown up in the masjid and went to public schools, or are the products of parents who made “hijrah”.
    * they are children of converts, children of immigrant Muslims
    * disillusionment and anger of many of these youth comes from:
    1 do not share the same idealism and fervor that their parents have.
    2 never been able to settle into a regular life for kids
    3 have only known poverty while additional siblings were being added every year
    4 parents may have been married and divorced multiple times
    5 they have seen no tangible benefits to being Muslim or shunning the dunya
    6 they feel as if they are captives of their family’s vision of Islam which forbids enjoying life
    7 kids come from two parent families, many of these kids have fathers who have no relationship with them and do not support them while they are out buying new thobes and the latest “must have” CD of Islamic lectures (or even giving the lectures)
    8 kids that have known 3, 5, and even 10 or 15 Muslim stepfathers in their lives
    9 watched their mothers being treated poorly by the Muslim men
    10 girls can develop a negative attitude towards Muslim men and boys see the hypocrisy in the talk and action at the masjid

    * This is leading to an angry young generation and some will be:
    1 isolated Muslims
    2 more balanced
    3 develop emotional problems and personality disorders
    4 leave the deen
    5 in prison
    6 mentally ill
    7 selling drugs or in gangs

  91. Margari,

    I never said he called me a “white boy”. I said he resorted to racial name calling, which “white boy” certainly is. When someone insults my race or uses demeaning words to describe my race I would certainly take it personal.

    If I had responded with talking about adult black men as “black boys” would you have not rightly taken offense to that? The description of men as “boys” is insulting, and knowingly said so. When you add a racial adjective to it, it becomes a racial insult.

    Do you know any man who wouldnt take offense at being called a boy? I dont, not the men I choose to associate with.

    If you look at the post he threw out the first charges of racism, never minding the fact that he was using racial epithets himself. That fact was pointed out to him by myself.

    What I find a bit worrying is the fact that the term “white boys” only brought rebuke from myself, whereas the term “black boy” in reference to an adult black male would have brought universal condemnation.

    Any insulting language, coupled with a racial adjective, should be rejected by everyone.

    Racism is wrong, and the colour of the person being racist doesnt matter. All racism should be denounced equally.

    Margari writes “I don’t think you have to take it that way.”

    I choose to take it the way I want and the way I feel it was meant. After he indirectly pointed at me for being a racist, it is clear exactly what he meant!

    I hate the hypocrisy of allowing one person to get away with racism because of the colour of their skin, then trying to call others on it.

    Either racism is wrong, or it is right. It cannot be right for one person or one group and wrong for another.

    The men you know might have been okay with having their race demeaned and being called a boy, but I certainly am not.

    For a guy who claims to be a lawyer, he sure doesnt know how to choose his wording very well. Such a mistake in a legal case would probably have lost the case for him.

    I hope he takes better care of his clients if he really is a lawyer as he claims. Such shoddy wording would see them in a world of trouble in court.

  92. ASA

    This article has weighed heavily upon my heart, and even made me cry.
    This article has made me take a step back, and examine my self as wife and mother. This is a warning of what happens when parents don’t have it together, and a sure encouragement to take preventive measures.
    I’ve come to the conclusion that I’m going to strive to the best of my skills and abilities to support the infrastructure with WD Muhammad community. I also think that we need to create fatherhood and motherhood organizations or support groups. For any Muslim ladies who aren’t aware, Mocha Moms may be a nice place to start if you’re looking for support.
    May Allah, The Greatest, guide us all…?

  93. Abu Usmah writes:

    “also Abu Sinan, I don’t see how your thinking is much different from rappers that exploit women when in a another post you basically said that a muslim sister who was raped will know better next time or something to that effect.”

    I made no such statement. All I did was to point out the facts in the case. No one deserves to be raped. I suggest if you think I said something like that you cut and paste my own words next time.

    Never, ever, would I say what you have accused me of, nor do I believe it. What you have done is called “Zolm”, but that is okay, keep it coming, I need the hasanat.

    Abu Usamah also posts:

    “look I don’t care to which race you belong, in America if you are poor you are going to have problems with insecurity or one of the many other complexes

    why do you think that so often white males snap and go binge killing, if they are so well adjusted?”

    Sorry, but this is where I ask where you get your numbers? Most white men who go on shooting sprees come from a middle class lifestyle, so that one cannot be pinned on being poor.

    He then writes:

    “what we have to do is come up with alternatives ”

    I agree with that. That is why I took issue when this thread has hijacked and became a tool to bash “white boys” instead of dealing with the subject at hand.

  94. Actionable,

    Okay, okay… i went over the top… just a little bit. The bull can’t go thru a small crack, but that’s life. Rap is not the problem in an of itself. However, what rap has done is LEGITIMATE all sorts of deviant behavior (in the minds of its listeners). Rap is used as a gateway to introduce or normalize all sorts of vices.

    Having come into rap in its relatively early stage–and not being from a major city (but in the NYC corridor), i know that i and the knuckleheads i hung with derived our values thru rap music–and i know that i wasn’t the most impressionable idiot in the neighborhood. When Schooly D. started talking his cheeba and carrying a gun, and the Beastie Boys said: “Got a .22 automatic on my person” (i literally remembered that lyric and haven’t heard it in 15 years or more), i felt the need to “graduate” from a blade to firepower (for protection). This was still, in essence, in the B.C. era (Before Crack), at least in my city, guns were simply not a part of our lives back then (i hadn’t known anyone in high school who had been murdered). If i had gotten caught with a pistol in a place with EXTREMELY tight gun laws, that would have been my life… because i wanted to act out what i heard in a rap song. This is the case with literally THOUSANDS OF YOUNG PEOPLE TODAY. Praise Allah, things happened in my life that i left that dark world altogether.

    The difference between now and then is that the rap gutter culture is now universal. Whereas we had to wait for someone to go to NY–or get the latest 12 inch–to find out what were the latest styles, slang, cons, and drugs were… and we were always a little “late” and “slow,” now the ghetto culture is exported universally and instantly–not just around the country but the world.

    The point is that rap music (i am talking about the mainstream of it) opens the door to ALL SORTS OF EVILS, and most people don’t even recognize it, for as they say, the last thing a fish would discover is water, and that is why it is so dangerous. Few people can honestly see the malevolent nature of rap, for they can’t remember a world in which it did not exist.

    In regards to solving the problems in black America, nothing can be solved until people are willing to wrestle with the rap problem. Why? Because opposing rap–i.e., resisting its vise/vice grip is all part of the discipline and self-control that are so sorely lacking in the black community. Furthermore, resisting rap is part of resisting the evident brainwashing and social engineering projects that are beaming that mess into folks’ minds. The powers-that-be know that as long as black folks are addicted to music, then they know that black folks ain’t serious about fixing their problems, and that they (the PTB) clearly have black people under their control and can manipulate them at will.

    As far as Muslims go, well there is the general Religious judgment regarding music. Second of all, even if a person wishes to argue about how the musical sounds are produced, the rule (of being haraam) applies having to hate disobedience, and having to hate the glorification of sinning. It is DEFINITELY HARAAM to enjoy listening to people bragging about murder, drug/alcohol use, and fornication (besides all the various sins of the heart)–not to mention the outright kufr in many raps.

    Thirdly, and i know this from Brothers (and myself) who have converted or began learning traditional Islamic knowledge in the past few years: when you stop listening to black/rap music, you are largely cut off from black kaafir culture. When you gain sufficient distance from that culture, and one is learning the Deen, then it becomes glaring evident what the problems/causes/solutions are.

    And lastly, the first stage of the struggle against kufr that the Prophet waged was the war of words. That’s all i am doing here. The wicked, vile, and foul need to be dressed as such. Now if you want to talk about poetry/the spoken word, the English language, and African-American identity, well, i have my own “rap” about that. God-willing, perhaps, i will get around to that.

  95. It amazes me people still get offended at precived racism…and it amazes me, at what people consider racism.

    “white boy” and “black boy” is so far from racist that i can’t even reach it.

    Like it or not, you live in a world with many people, who are a different color, and ontop of that, MOST of them can be read as humans, based off thier skin color. I get tired of people who try to erase the lines and claim there is no difference. when there certainly is. Screw you as they say…i prefer to point out someones skin color, it helps to explain the kind of person you are talking about. And nope, that doesn’t make you racist, because being a racist means you hate a certain skin color…a person can say “nigger jew, chinkskin, jugabu honky” and that doesn’t make them racist. If someone gets into a fight with someone from the opposite race…that doesn’t make it racist.

    If someone says ‘most black men like chicken’…that isn’t racist, and you know why?….BECAUSE most black men like chicken! Black men will tell you most black men like chicken. Chinese people are good at math…you know how i know? Because i know a bunch of Chinese people, not related to each other, and from diffrent backgrounds…all of them…good at math.

    No wonder people throw out the race card, they don’t even know what racism is. Alas, thats another effect of the people in charge trying to supress people by sending them on guilt trips…”oh man, i just said ‘black boy’ does that make me a racist? i racist?”

    You know your lost when you have to ask yourself if you are a certain thing, wether it be racist, gay, confused, wrong etc etc….

    And now back to your morning programming.

  96. Abu Sinan,

    To begin I ask that Allah aza wa jal forgive both you and me if I have slandered you in anyway.

    You are correct with regards to asking for quotes of your statments to be posted and I will do so. However you have a bit of a strawman arguement in that I did not indicate you wrote she “deserved” anything.

    above Abu Sinan wrote:

    “All I did was to point out the facts in the case.”

    in posting in question Abu Sinan wrote:

    “I am not a fan of the Saudis, yet it is hard to point out that had see not been out with her boyfriend (even though she was married) in a remote location with another female friend and her boyfriend, this would not have happened to her.”

    This is not a FACT for both the Sister and her Husban (who is still standing by her) still deny that she a had relationship with the guy and your choice of “boyfriend” is a loaded word.

    in posting in question Abu Sinan wrote:
    “…Either way, the girl handle it wrong, and hopefully she has learned a lesson.”

    While I did not quote you verbetim how in the world is your statment above substantially different from my statement “will know better next time or something to that effect.” as to create slander or oppression?

    Now back to the topic one idea I’ve for a while is to create havens outside of the Masjid where young people can congregate. You I work with children as I coach Muslim youth sports teams that compete against non-Muslims also perform dawah services in county jails.

    And in my opinion what many need is a halal structured environmet away from the hair-splitters at the Masjid where they can have fun without someone beating them over-the-head with deen. Activities could range from sports to poetry.

    Or how about sister only hair salons where they can get and relax without feeling they are doing something haram.

    These are not to be seen as cure alls but as little steps to release some of the pressure they are under in this society.

  97. These comments really caught my eye this morning.

    Let me chime in on a couple of things real quick:

    1)”white boy” and or “white girl” can carry a negative connotation depending on who it is said by and in what context. But “Cracker”, “Guinny” (it is used derogatorily in my town) , etc, come off much, much worse.

    2) There is a serious problem that exists with sectors of ALL genres of popular music today. With certain rap music there is an overglorification
    of sex, money and violence. And I did say SOME rap, not all. When I was in High School some people were listening to Poor Righteous Teachers and some had the 2 Live Crew thing going on. Everyone can agree that they both carry completely different messages. But we do find the same problems with all modern music. Country music these days can often carry racist and jingoistic messages, which are harmful when taken to heart by country fans. Modern alternative rock often times carries a rabid nihilistic and atheistic tone (Anyone remember Columbine?). The problem covers the whole spectrum, not just one. I think it behooves everyone, that when they listen to music, they need to analyze the feeling that arise within them during and after listening to it. If you are a Muslim, you should be able to feel the Shaytaanic influence right away, if the music is bad for your soul. We need to be honest with ourselves. Every time I hear Toby Keith, Trent Reznor or Slim Thug, they all have the same effect on me (for different reasons).

    And lastly, Br. Musa, LOL! That reminded me of this line from Malcolm X: “I must plant my seed in
    FER-TI-LE soil…” That was THE line, wasn’t it?

  98. Salaam alaikum Abu Sinan,
    I’m not trying to attack you at all, but I find one thing troubling. I have seen you say little about toxic maintstream white American culture, but you do spend a lot of energy writing about Black American culture. And one time, I remember us getting into a spat because I did write about Black people’s perceptions of whites.

    I just wonder if you’d be so defensive if we started talking about the white american cultural production, especially working class and rural poor. What about punk music? metal? What about meth? Designer drugs? Binge drinking? Experimental switch hitting? I’ve seen graffiti in Morocco and Egypt with bands’ names such as Korn and Red Hot Chili peppers, as well as Tu-Pac.

    I know it is so 1980s to talk about satanic worship in rock music, but materialistic, atheistic, and hedonistic ideas are spread through those forms of music. And they are pretty ubiquitous on college campuses, I wonder what influence does that have on the Arab and Desi youth? I think the exportation of American culture as a whole has a lot of negative influences worldwide, not just commercial rap.

  99. Swarthmoor, some peoples hearts are closed.

    Like i said in my first post, before you all go off making programs and clubs to ‘help the youth’ you really, really need to know how to help them..sheltering a child from this problem is not helping them. And forcing them out, aggressivly or not going to help. you need to show them what ‘harm’ is..and then show them why its bad…and then show them why they are in the same situation. And in the case of the muslim, you need to explaine to them that these people and thier culture is a kafir one…Allah revealed that the kafir is the worst, the worst, the worst, WORST thing in existance. Dog salavia have a genuinly higher status than a non-muslim.

    You need to teach your children who these kafirs are, and why it is not good to imitate them. These kafirs are damned people, people that Allah has deemed the worst of the creations, and they are nothing more than fuel for the fires of hell. That is the true reality…this is a very big deal when muslim youth imitate them…because your allowing your youth to imitate something that you know is cursed and damned.

    That is the issue. Sure, they may have a messed up menality or they may gain bad mannerism from this ghetto culture..but the MAIN point is..they are immitating what Allah has deemed the worst creation.

    Alhamdulilahi Rabbil’alamin. I am glad i do not have children and have to go through this. :X :S :/

  100. AbuSinan:
    It is taking me a great deal of composure to hold back from really expressing my feelings about you. Please do not tempt me.

    I’ve refrained from commenting on this thread because I’ve realized the degree of I anger I would exhibit would be counterproductive and enter into the realm of ad hominem attacks.

    Abu Sinan:
    Are you a guy who applied to law school and got rejected or something? Why do feel the need to address my profession when discussing posts in which it was not even mentioned nor relevant?

    Why are you so defensive as to assume that any of my posts were directed at you personally?

    Do you suffer from some White male fear of persecution or something? Does having Black people question your professed racial “tolerance” disturb your White revert delusion of having finally “transcended” race?

    Trust me; I dislike you enough that if I wanted to address any of the drivel that flows from your keyboard, I would have mentioned you personally.

  101. “Dog salavia have a genuinly higher status than a non-muslim. ”

    You’re sick, don’t pretend your sickness comes from Islam.

  102. Margari writes:

    “I have seen you say little about toxic maintstream white American culture, but you do spend a lot of energy writing about Black American culture.”

    Well, as soon as Umar starts writing posts about “toxic mainstream white American culture” I’ll be sure to comment about it.

    That, however, is not what this post was about. Should I hijack the post and make it about a subject that is different than what the blog owner intended? Trust me, I have about as much time for tasteless, low class white culture as I do for the same things in African American culture.

    This is not my blog so I fail to see how you can attack me for posting on the subjects created by it’s owner. If this were my blog you’d have a point. In this case you do not.

    You have a blog, if you want to write about the subjects you mentioned, feel free and I will most certainly comment.

    It almost seems as if you are inviting a visitor to a blog to take over a thread and change the subject. As a former blogger myself, it is not something that most bloggers appreciate out of their guests.

    Umar, even as a white man, grew up in and around the African American community and seems to have a better grasp on it’s issues. I am not sure if Umar could comment on the heavy metal or punk music scene as I dont believe he was ever a part of it.

    When I grew up I was a punker, I knew the punk/metal/skinhead scene inside and out. Knock yourself out, start a thread on your blog about it if you have enough knowledge of the history and situation and I’ll put my two cents worth in.

    Until then I’ll stick with the subject as outlined by the person who owns the blog. Umar had in the past offered to me and some others to write posts for his blog, maybe I can take him up on it and cover this subject.

    However, as it has little or no impact on the Muslim community in American, let alone world wide, I dont see the relevence on a Muslim level.

  103. As salaamu alaykum,

    Abu Sinan, the fact that you spent a good deal of time when you had your own blog and now here criticising Arabs (on your blog) and Black people (here) has not gone unnoticed.

    If you admit that you know considerably less about Black American culture than another white male who only grew up with us, then how much less would you know than several people who actually grew up as Black people in America! It would behoove you –and give us some ease I’m sure– if you’d be a bit more humble about the criticism coming your way.

    Sis. Margari has exhibited significantly more patience and kindness than I (and apparently others) had the …patience to and your defensiveness, as natural as it may be, is counterproductive. No, you don’t have to “take over” the conversation. You can simply refrain from commenting if your words are doing more harm than good. But, I think what might benefit everyone bests is if you simply take a different tone. Allah (swt) knows.

  104. Mainstream Hip Hop has a set of problems associated with it that I simply see nowhere else on any wide scale, and I say this as someone who’s been a Hip Hop Head for over a decade. Are Talib Kweli, Zion I, The Roots, Jeru The Damaja, Brother Ali, Lupe Fiasco, Gangstarr, and Dilated putting out a different message? Yeah, but to be honest I don’t know a lot of 14 year olds of any race listening to them. The kids I work with are not even necessarily that into Hip Hop, or reggaeton, which a lot of them also listen to, they’re into this mass-media idea of realness that tells them acting like a jackass is the most laudable thing a person can do and the more trouble they get in, the more authentic it all is. I see no other trend in American society that tells kids that aping ruthless criminals is the way to go; yes, yes, there’s Mob movies and all that but it’s acknowledged that it’s fake; Viggo Mortgenson isn’t going to throw a chair at Joe Pesci at the next Oscars, causing their respective posses to riot. A lot of punk rockers are scumbags, but being a scumbag alone doesn’t get them record sales; meanwhile, Shyne, a mediocre rapper at best, got big pretty much just by going to jail, so he seems real. The kids notice this! I try to get them out of the wanksta lifestyles they’re needlessly getting messed up by and they point at some big rapper like The Game and say “nah, he got heart; he still got love for the hood, still live in the hood, still hustles, even though he rich; why I gotta quit? I still gotta make paper.” Besides the odd spectacle of small town Navajo and Mexican kids imitating Big City Black (and sometimes Island Latino) slang they hear on 98.3, I think it shows an influence we simply don’t see anywhere else. Yeah, I’ve known dumb, self-and-other destructive punk rockers but that lifestyle isn’t being pimped 24/7 to a huge segment of the population, and there’s no punk rock equivalent to 50 Cent; once I see a large number of kids hurling their feces at cops like GG Allin, I’ll be worried. That’s something I love pointing out to kids….50 Cent plays Bat Mitvahs if you pay him enough. Is that real? No, he’s selling an image, the closest he gets to the street is when he walks out of his mansion to grab the Wall Street Journal in the driveway, and good for him; to be involved in criminal activity at this point would just make him an idiot. Are there vastly entrenched problems in all working class communities in America today, regardless of race? Sure. Are there many factors at work? Yeah. Is there institutionalized racism and a knee jerk reaction to point to the “rap music” as some kind of paramount social ill while ignoring many other factors? No question. But mainstream rap culture is a problem.

  105. Umm Ali,

    I commented here on the subjecs brought up by Umar, the owner of the blog. Do you suggest I respond to other issues and start hijacking the thread to make my own points? It is amazing how some here are attacking me because I am talking about the subject of the post! I am being attacked for not changing the subject? That is really amazing!

    As for my own blog, I wasn’t critical of Arabs in general, rather of Arab regimes, and sometimes Arab culture. Do you want to stand and defend Arab regimes? If so, feel free, but certainly do not expect me to do it.

    I have no idea where you live, but the actions of one Arab government effect my life on almost a daily basis. I have a right to address that and other issues. If you do not like it, sorry, but freedom of speech is like that.

    Honestly I don’t really care if you feel you are being “patient” with me or not. Look at the rubbish you are passing out and then go rethink the nonsense you are talking about.

    You are attacking me for not changing the subject of the blog owner’s post and then you wonder why I respond the way I do? Are you really serious?

    Wow, I guess I could have responded to a post about issues in the African American Muslim community by talking about white punk rockers, metal heads and other aspects of white culture, but then I would have been attacked for changing the subject of the thread. I would have been accused of being racist for making an African American issue into a white issue. Either way, I loose.

    Sorry, I don’t care how much you and others whinge, I will continue to talk about the subject at hand. I refuse to change the subject.

    It is sad/funny, but it seems that maybe your attempt to get me to move the subject away from what it original was is more about deflection from the original post than anything else.

    You say “You can simply refrain from commenting if your words are doing more harm than good.”

    So basically if my opinion differs from someone else’s there is no room for it? Funny, other than my skin colour, there is very little difference between what I said here and some other African American posters have said here.

    I think the problem is not my opinion, it is my opinion coupled with the fact that I am white.

    I have a suggestion for you, if you do not like diversity of opinion, if certain opinions from certain people with certain skin colours bothers you, don’t read them.

    I am sitting here shaking my head. More disappointments in a line of disappointments from those who call themselves Muslim.

    Racism is wrong, FULL STOP, and some of you here are VERY guilty of this sin!

    It is sad to note that the only time I have ever been treated in a racist manner has been from those who call themselves Muslim.

    Honestly, I don’t care if you think I should take a different tone. It really means very little to me. I will ALWAYS react to racism directed towards me with defiance, and I could care less if others do not like it.

    If you don’t like it, I suggest you address the racism displayed by others, not act out against the person it was directed at. I wont sit down and take it and if you don’t like it………tough.

    No apologies here at all.

    May Allah forgive you for demanding of me inequities and may He open your eyes to the Zolm being done. In the meanwhile may He continue to bestow your hasanat upon me.


  106. Abdul Jabbar,

    I could care less what you think about me. Why would the words of a racist bother me? You are not the first racist in the Muslim community I have had to deal with, I am certain you wont be the last.

    Honestly, I dont even know why you post here when you have even accused the owner of this blog of being a racist? That is your choice I guess.

    As to lawyers, I work with them on almost a daily basis and easily recognise the careful and composed way they conduct themselves, whether in writting or in person. You exhibit none of that.

    When you use racial epithets I do take that personal. I know you would do the same, so why question me about it?

    Having a racist dislike me? I must confess it just doesnt bother me.

    So continue with your talk about “white boys” and I will continue to call you on it and your other racist statements.

    No justice, no peace, INDEED!

    May Allah cure your heart of the sickness of racism. There is no room for it in Islam!

  107. Abu Sinan,
    “there is very little difference between what I said here and some other African American posters have said here.”

    Check it, I was just reading Sherman Jackson and he pointed out that that many blacks and other non-whites support white supremacy. Some of the comments that some of the AFrican American posters have made are down right repugnant and could basically come out the mouths of klan members. I have had several people write me out of disbelief that their comments are flying about.

    There is room for a difference of opinion. I’m not one to use such charged language such as accusing someone of being a hypocrite or a racist if someone doesn’t agree with me. But I will call something out for being offensive or hurtful.

    Umar Lee has written entries about white culture and western materialism. I have not really seen the same force in your writing on critiques of western culture as your critiques of African Americans. I would be more intersted in what you have to say about the effects of mainstream American culture on Muslims.

    I’m sorry if you feel as if you’re being racially oppressed in this discussion. I knew you wouldn’t take the issues that I raised in the constructive manner in which they were intended. Unlike some of the other posters, I addressed you because I feel that you are a reasonable person. I think that everyone needs to chill out on the drama and exagerrated offenses.

  108. White May Be Might, But It’s Not Always Right

    Please read the whole article…

    By Khalil G. Muhammad
    Washington Post

    Sunday, December 9, 2007; B03

    Recently I showed my college students a YouTube clip of Bill Cosby’s
    and Alvin Poussaint’s appearance on “The Oprah Winfrey Show.” After
    hearing Cosby plead for poor blacks to embrace their parenting
    responsibilities, many of the students said they wished their parents
    had followed his advice. They regretted that some of their peers had
    done poorly in school, abused drugs and alcohol, and run afoul of the
    law. These problems, they agreed, might have been avoided with more
    supervision at home.

    They might have been the perfect audience for a Cosby town-hall lecture
    on the dangers of self-destructive values in black America. They might
    also have been perfect illustrations of the growing “values gap”
    between poor and middle-class blacks described in a widely cited recent
    Pew Research Center poll.

    Except almost all my students are white.

    Cosby and the recent Pew study are the latest in a long finger-wagging
    tradition of instructing poor blacks to lift themselves up by their
    bootstraps and reject pathologically “black” values. Today, rap culture
    is usually presented as Exhibit A, but strains of the same argument
    have cropped up for more than a century. If blacks would just get their
    act together, this old story goes, all the social inequalities between
    them and the rest of society would disappear.

    In its coverage of the Pew report findings, National Public Radio asked
    whether some blacks were lagging behind because they were choosing not
    to become “closer to whites in their values.” Unfortunately, this line
    of questioning reinforces one of the most persistent myths in America,
    that white is always right. The myth reflects an enduring double
    standard based on “white” and “black” explanations for social problems.
    And it assumes that “white” culture is the gold standard for judging
    everyone, despite its competing ideologies, its contradictions and its
    flaws, including racism.

    The masquerade began over a hundred years ago. Shortly after the end of
    slavery, sociologists and demographers began presenting research on
    black failure and struggle as “indisputable” proof of black
    inferiority. One of the first studies was released in 1896, when the
    leading race-relations demographer of the period, Frederick L. Hoffman,
    analyzed census data showing that blacks were doing worse than whites
    in mortality, health, employment, education and crime. The problem was
    not racism, he argued, but “race traits and tendencies.”

    To him, the civil rights acts of the 1860s and 1870s had leveled the
    playing field. Blacks should be left to compete against whites on their
    own and face the inevitable. The black man, he wrote, “has usually but
    one avenue out of his dilemma — the road to prison or to an early

    At the same time, when explaining rising rates of crime, suicide and
    mental-health problems among whites, Hoffman blamed industrialization
    and the strains of “modern life.” He called for a reordering of the
    nation’s economic priorities. Hoffman’s study coincided with — and
    provided justification for — the Supreme Court’s notorious Plessy v.
    Ferguson decision, which legalized segregation.

    As segregation took hold, there was a powerful need to minimize the
    role of racism as a factor in explaining racial disparities. The
    “Cosby” role at the start of Jim Crow was first played by Booker T.
    Washington. Counseling blacks to conquer their inferiority, he
    repudiated civil rights activism in favor of self-help and moral

    Many whites loved Washington, and his ideas were echoed by liberal
    social scientists such as the psychologist G. Stanley Hall, who
    instructed black people to stop sympathizing “with their own criminals”
    and “accept without whining patheticism and corroding self-pity [their]
    present situation, prejudice and all.”

    But when Hall turned his focus on whites, his research on adolescent
    psychology directly influenced national efforts to protect them from
    the ravages of industrial capitalism. Drawing on his work, the
    child-welfare activist Jane Addams established Hull House in Chicago at
    first to help immigrant families adjust to American life, and later to
    save thousands of Chicago’s white youth from lives of crime, violence
    and drug abuse attributed to “modern city conditions.” But black
    children were not generally welcome at Hull House. Addams claimed that
    similar problems among black youth were due to the race’s “belated”
    moral development, manifested in poor parenting and a lack of “social

    The pioneering black social scientist W.E.B. Du Bois challenged this
    first generation of white liberals and social scientists, including
    Hoffman, on the flawed assumptions and racial double standards in their
    studies and in their practices. But when Du Bois tried to argue that
    pathology knows no color, he was ignored, criticized and dismissed by
    his white peers as an angry black man with, as one sociologist put it,
    a “chip on his shoulder.”

    Du Bois’s frustrations led him to leave academia for a life of
    anti-racist activism. In 1910, the year he became director of research
    and publicity for the NAACP, he warned that “whiteness” was becoming
    the new basis of the nation’s consciousness. “Are we not coming more
    and more day by day to making the statement, ‘I am white,’ the one
    fundamental tenet of our practical morality?” he asked.

    In today’s era of hip-hop, Du Bois’s warning still goes unheeded. If
    rap music is so bad, why are white kids its major consumers? And by
    what value system should we judge the large media companies that
    publish and distribute hip-hop — or, really, gangsta rap, its most
    popular and sinister cousin?

    Were “white values” on display two years ago when the federal
    government failed to adequately respond to one of the greatest natural
    disasters in American history?

    If lower-class “black” values are so distinct from those of the rest of
    America, particularly the “white values” supposedly now embraced by
    middle- and upper-class blacks, why, according to the Pew report, do
    less than a third of white Americans graduate from college? Are legions
    of whites similarly devaluing higher education? Are they “acting black”?

    If lower-class black values are so peculiar, why do whites report the
    same or higher levels of illegal drug use as blacks, as numerous
    studies show?

    What of underperforming white schoolchildren in rural America, the
    Great Plains, Appalachia or the Deep South? Are they “acting black”
    because they can’t compete with their upwardly mobile suburban

    Today’s liberals still empathize with America’s invisible white working
    poor, who they warn are being “nickel and dimed” to the point of near
    homelessness. But why the empathy? Isn’t their poverty really a
    function of their choosing to embrace their hidden blackness?

    Du Bois’s scholarship and activism helped pave the way for the modern
    civil rights movement, which helped exorcize the ghost of America’s Jim
    Crow past. That he was right about racism but that we still continue to
    accept the same flawed thinking about race and social problems suggests
    a powerful and enduring paradox.

    If we insist on explaining racial disparities in terms of black vs.
    white values, then we need to explain what exactly white values are.
    When we do, we’ll find that whiteness is an inadequate standard by
    which to judge good black people vs. bad ones.

    As my students would tell you, the real white world is as pathological,
    as respectable and as diverse as the black one.

    kgmuhamm@indiana. edu

    Khalil G. Muhammad is an assistant professor of history at Indiana
    University and the author of the forthcoming “The Condemnation of
    Blackness: Ideas about Race and Crime in the Making of Modern Urban
    America. “

  109. Kufr [Blasphemy], is infact worse than dog salavia…

    Blasphemy is what it is for a reason. There is nothing worse than that – and the ones who are attributed with it.

    Dogs do not comit kufr, they are better than those who do.

  110. JafrBinNuh,

    You said:

    Look at Rwanda…a lead put out propaganda about a tribe of people, and another tribe wiped them out, killed every single one of them, because of a few lies that a leader told them. Hell, not to sound cliche…but hitler, one guy, used propaganda to get an antier nation of people to hate the jews. There is a guy in North Korea..a short fellow with a crazy hair style…named Kimberly. Who has brainwashed an entier nation of people into thinking that the world is out to get them, and that thier ‘dear leader’ will protect them.

    The “few lies” that you refer to were woven into society over a LONG period of time and were not the misguided instructions of an African leader but was a tactic used by BELGIAN COLONIZERS to DIVIDE AND CONQUER a group of people. I feel that African Americans need to learn African history and Africans need to learn African American history and then will we realize that we are being played, and our problems are not genetic manifestations. That said, that does not mean black communities do not need to WAKE UP and develop a way to face these unique problems ONCE AND FOR ALL. I’ve noticed African Americans talk about events in Africa like they are not deep rooted and Africans talking about “Black Americans” like they werent all being screwed at the same time. Lets read, understand and MAKE CHANGE.

  111. Abu Sinan, you changed the subject again, this isn’t about you, and how you’re telling us you’re going to react to what you think in you’re own mind is racism.

    To be honest, i think the only racism that exists really is the kind of racism that people precive to have thrown at them. because said persons do not know what really racism is, all they know is what the general sway of western society as subliminaly deemed as racist.

    The way you feel about a certain phrase directed at you..does not define what that phrase was. That goes for everyone. If someone says somethign to another person that was not racist, but the person he said it to got offended because he thought it was racism, the person who got offended is wrong and confused. Thinks are what they are, they arn’t not defined by your own interpertation of it.

    Abu Sinan, i think your confused and wrong for getting offended. Because nothing racist happened. And even if it did, racism is, in my eyes, such a minor and petty issue that it doesn’t even warrent acknowlagement.

  112. From AbuSinan:

    “As to lawyers, I work with them on almost a daily basis and easily recognise the careful and composed way they conduct themselves, whether in writting or in person. You exhibit none of that.”

    AbuSinan, If I wasn’t composed you have no idea the things I’d be writing right now.

    You have the nerve to try to tell me how I should compose myself as an attorney, ON A BLOG?? The obnoxious sense of entitlement you exhibit is almost comical.

    Do us “colored” folk a favor and just keep quiet on these types of subjects. Too many people are starting to reckognize you for what your are.

    I don’t want that cool Black friend you have that makes you feel so racially progressive to read your posts and cut you off because he finally understands your gimmic.

  113. Abdul Jabbar,

    This blog is being highjacked just look back over the previous posts and you will see that some posters haven’t contributed a single postive comment yet have many posts.

    Brother I know it’s difficult not to respond to some these people but for the sake of getting conversation back on topic ignor them please. May Allah grant you and I and everyone else the strenght to do so.

    While I agree with Umar we going to have some problems when these children grow up but, not to the degree that he thinks, it won’t be the end of the world.

    In Detroit the innercity we’ve had to deal with all types of ills from intergration, goverment sanctioned drug trade and failed welfare programs, all of which systematically underminded the Black family and community, and when you add the outright “coldwar” type attacks on muslims all this combined created a siege mentality, that was used to exploit the parents of these children.

    Islam it was hoped would cure that, however we’ve learned now that Islam will not be the cure if not practiced in a balanced and sober manner.

    And the first thing that is a must is that to truely help and teach someone you have to have compassion, understanding and love for them.

    [S/J/A enter attack\counter arguement here LOL LOL ]

    Also few posts mentioned the FOI/MGT of the NOI but sunni muslims also had training for men such the Rad created by the Dar-ul-Islam Movement, they established Jawwala Scouts (Muslim Rover Scouts) to train boys and young men and Janatul-Muminaat was established (no doubt in reference to paradise being at the foot of mothers) to train young women.

    Not mention the annual Riyaadah that held for sports competition and learning.

    However, the same psych-ops that are now being employed over the internet to distract and confuse were used back then but instead of anonymous posts it was mailed letters. Classic text book FUD!!!

    These children (as all children) will need to understand and shown examples that you can still enjoy life while being morally upright.

    And whoever wants to help will have to rollup their sleaves and be amongst the children internet “banging” isn’t going to cut it. calling them or their families names isn’t going to cut it.

  114. Aziza,

    I think you are confusing “racist” comments with critical comments about a deviant and dangerous culture. Regarding the use of the term “n!gga,” well, the n!ggas refer to themselves as “n!ggas.” You have a subculture of deviance that flourishes in the black ghettos. It is not the same deviant culture that you find in white trash trailer parks. White folks, generally speaking, call their trash, “trash.” (Many) black folks bend over backwards defending their trash. When black people speak critically of this ghetto culture, which poses a great threat to the African-American Muslim community and the country as a whole, they, too, are skewered. Just ask Bill Cosby.

  115. …Back to the topic at hand:

    There is nothing wrong with being a “Movement Muslim,” especially, here in the West. Without a clear sense of community/identity, there is little chance that the parents, much less the children, would be able to survive with their identity intact. The problem with many of the MM was that they lacked genuinely traditional Islamic knowledge, so without that, there really is little long term progress they could make.

    The other problem is that many of the youths have not been given a “balanced education” in which they are thoroughly rooted in the Religious sciences, while at the same time have the tools to critique the society. Instead of just learning “Haraam! Haraam!” The students need to understand the Religious Judgments in a larger context. In doing so, they would feel all the more confident that Islam is the True Religion; they would have the ability to criticize the society; they can call others to Islam with their sophisticated analysis of the America’s problems; and because they are rooted in the Traditional Sciences, they can offer the American public a genuine alternative between this cornball clearly orchestrated “liberal”/”conservative” dichotomy.

    I can give an example from an experience last summer wherein i attended a week long camp, wherein the shaykh gave about 20 lessons (approx. 35 hours) on the rules pertaining to contracts (in the Shafi`iyy madhhab). It’s great knowledge, and i had taken much of it before. However, this knowledge needs to be made relevant to the time and place in which we live. It occurred to me at the camp that it would be great to a seminar for a few days with the teens on riba and insurance and the movie “Sicko.” After seeing “Sicko” (i saw part of it on Google Vid, but they took it down before i finished), one cannot help but see how horrible the health care system is in the country–and how wicked riba is.

    Now after seeing the film, the youth (teenagers) could discuss it in light of what they had learned from the camp. Furthermore, they could do group projects on the devastating effects of the riba system and health care. They could then propose solutions–from an Islamic perspective.

    Projects like this would engage the youth: they could see the profound wisdom in some of the Religious judgments–and reinforce their understandings of those judgments, and they would be empowered with a new outlook on the society–and be given the tools to make a difference. In this way, they aren’t doin’ the shuckin’ and jivin’ head down, tail between the legs, beggin’ thing, and at the same time, they are not withdrawing themselves from the society. Instead, they are going forth into the society confident that they can make a difference.

    The same kinds of critiques could be done with a whole array of Religious judgments, for example: loans and Third World countries–or Americans being crushed by debt; waste and the environment; the effects of eating pork–or the treatment of animals on factory farms; the personal/social consequences of promiscuity; the manipulation of the mainstream media and advertising; the influence of music on behavior, and so on. In this way, the kids are learning their Religion and seeing what is wrong with the society–and why it is CRITICAL not to allow oneself to get sucked up and absorbed into a society that is clearly on the descent.

  116. Just for whomever is interested, i started putting up audio lessons from the Creed of At-Tahawiyy over on my blog. If folks have any questions or comments contact me over there, please.

  117. Assalam alaikum Swath Moor,

    Brother I know a bit about New York and have relatives who have lived there since the 1920s. But my experience is mainly Euoropean based and on that score I’m aware I lack the day to day experience of what is happening there.

    Brother, I’m grateful for your thoughts and do not hold anything against you for your over- reaction. I dig where its coming from, but we must be careful with those type of generalisations here.

    There are people here that who need just a little excuse to hate what they do not understand.

    Freedom of Speech is a beautiful right but it is not an ‘absolute right’ and may be restircted if it causes a certain degree of offence and certaily if it causes ‘Public Disorder’.

    I apologise if I have offended any of my brothers and sisters here.

  118. Margari,

    You seem to have lost track of the chain of event here. We were discussing issues within the African American Muslim scene. One poster came out and accused people here of being racists, including “white converts”.

    This was the first charge of racism on this thread and it was knowingly directed at at least a couple of the white converts here, including myself.

    Who do you think he was talking about? This same poster then started throwing around terms like “white boys”. This was BEFORE I had come out and said anything about people being racist, I was just talking about the subject that the blog onwer had started.

    Why didnt you take that poster to task for making accusations? Why didnt you take that poster to task for using racial epithets? Why was my RESPONSE to the accusations and the racist words from this poster attacked and not the original accusation and taunts themselves?

    You say you will call something out for being offensive or hurtful, yet the only thing you said was against my RESPONSE to accusations and racial epithets. You gave NO response for the original accusations of racism leveled against white converts here. Your silence was DEAFENING!

    Umar seldom writes about white culture and the like. Why? Because he comes from a background that is a bit different from that. That is fine, his blog, his subject matter.

    As to my responses, I guess they are a bit different because on those threads, as infrequent as they are, I am not called a racist and have not seen racist epithets used. Trust me, if in one of those threads someone accused me of being a racist and then posted racial insults, I certainly would respond in the very same way.

    I think many of you here have an issue with the fact that the African American culture, and it’s Muslim subculture, is discussed so much here. Sorry, it isnt my blog, so I cannot do anything about it. Do not attack me because I choose to respond to the subjects brought up here.

    Margari writes:

    ” I think that everyone needs to chill out on the drama and exagerrated offenses.”

    Really? Hah, so now you are going to tell me how I am supposed to feel? Really? Would you be saying the same thing if it was me who used the term “black boy” instead of an African American racist using the term “white boy”? Somehow I doubt it. I dont think you’d be talking about “exagerrated offenses” then.

    I dont think so. There are some serious double standards at play here. You ought to check those as they render moot any other point you might try to make about white racism in the future.

    Either racism is wrong, or it isnt. The pathos that some have in ignoring racism against whites whilst going out of their way to point out white racism is nothing more than hypocrisy.

    To paraphrase a line from one of my favourite movies:

    “If the milk is sour, I am not the sort of pussy to be licking it”.

  119. I never expected to heard the “Blame it on hip hop & black people” argument from my brothers (Akhi’s ?). Racial slurs and worse, arguments that’ll make the good people @ fox proud. And what happened to Adab ? I’ve read some very infuriating things on the comments, I’m glad sister Margari, brother Abdul Jabar, Abu Usama and co are bringing some balance to this topic. I’ll keep quiet now.

  120. @Muslim First

    Oh, don’t worry, i am with you on the same page when you mentioned that the way things are, is on purpose. Most [believe it or not] of the problems in the world were placed there…they did not accedently happen.

    Esp in America the black community is the way it is..because a few select people purposely pulled the strings and made it that way, in all honesty,it has nothing to do with the people involved, or ‘white people’.

    White people, are sometimes the reason things are the way they are within the black community, but it is not meant to work in thier favor.

    White people are the majority, and they don’t like people to control them, thats what happened in WW2 germany…germans were looseing the control of thier own country and money, and a guy named hitler came along and wanted to change that. So the people who run the west, want to keep white people in check, and they do that by useing black people as a buffer to keep the white people in check, by constantly keeping whites on a guiltrip and convinceing them that everything they do is either racist, homphobic, anti-woman, etc etc…This is why the modernist movement is amoung the worst plauges that has been set free in this dunya.

    White people, today, are so stupified, they are scared of the words they say, it might offened, they are scared to speak thier thoughts and to displine thier children.

    You know the people i refer to when i say ‘those in power’…i think many of us do.. [i hope].

  121. The issue we are talking about, about the impact of this destructive culture, on our youth, and the fact that it sometimes leads people into Kufr…is alot worse than any form of racism you can muster.

    So, why not just drop this petty and useless issue of racism, and talk about the safty of our childrens iman?

    Alot of the ‘racism’ that is around today, is made up in the minds of confused and guilt-felt white people, who feel sorry about thier ancestry, in reguards to ameircans and the uniquely ameircan slave era this country had.

    I know not any black/latino/asian/arab racists or racist apologizers….

  122. Jami,

    You guys are right. But folks are trying to pretend here about the PERNICIOUS EFFECT this ghetto culture. The reality is that black America (kaafir black America) has lost its culture war. And Muslims are taking HIGH casualties from this war–because we (Muslims) have not taken an adequate stand on this issue–and distinguished us from them.

    I see that i am not the only one fed up with what is going on–only he is not as polite about it as i am:

    [Warning contains (very) foul language]:

  123. “Umar seldom writes about white culture and the like. ”
    Umar does have a series about white converts. And when he has written things about white converts and identity, I haven’t seen many comments talking about what negative things about white culture converts must shed. I have actually made it a policy to allow white converts to have their inner dialog without imposing my views. There are many things I don’t know about their struggle or their experience of things. I didn’t want to side track the discussion with my own critiques of the assumptions and cultural patterns they may bring into the Deen. But Black culture is seen as pathological with posters from all walks of life having a strong opinion about the problems int he Black community with zero commitment to fixing any of them because they are not linked in any way to these problems.

    I am aware of the old beef between you and Abdul Jabbar going way back. But I don’t know if his views were limited to you and Umar Lee, but just a general statement. Also, I find it odd to talk about double standards. No one seems to have a problem if posters like Abdul Jabbar state that many immigrant Muslims are racist (using some sweeping terms), but you feel like he has made a personal attack because he said that both immigrant Muslims and white Muslims have racist views of Black Muslims.

    I would like to clarify, most people are prejudiced and hold to some extent racist views. Without deep analysis some critiques can be offensive to the groups they are talking about. I am not saying how to feel, but some things that you call racial epithets may be subject to question. That’s why I was a little confused about the reaction. I am sure we could pull in all sorts of experts to do a comparative analysis of racial epithets. But the truth is, that anti-Black terms have a lot more sting in them because at one point in time we were reduced to sub-human conditions as chattel slaves, considered 3/5 of human beings, and denied basic human rights for over a 100 years. This is not to say that Blacks are incapable of racist views or that they don’t have racial slurs for white people or any other group.

    Abu Sinan, the main problem is that you see my comments as an attack, as if I’m trying to personally affront you. I was trying to understand why something was offensive to you, because that was really news to me. Then you come back with swinging words like hypocrite, double standard, etc. I’m not trying to attack you, but get some real dialog going. So chill, okay.

  124. “Really? Hah, so now you are going to tell me how I am supposed to feel? Really? Would you be saying the same thing if it was me who used the term “black boy” instead of an African American racist using the term “white boy”? Somehow I doubt it. I dont think you’d be talking about “exagerrated offenses” then.” – Abu Sinan

    No, i wouldn’t be offended. Because i’m a big boy, i don’t wear diapers, i am above petty shit like that. You could call me every name in the book and it wouldn’t effect me one bit…because racism is stupid, and those who get offended by it are stupid. Sorry Abu Sinan, but your just going to far into something that isn’t even relevant.

    Your mommy is not around anymore to protect you…so stop whining like an idiot and contribute to the real discussion, or leave. your not proving a point or being heroic by ‘taking a stand agaisnt what you think is wrong’ that is a western idea. What YOU personally think is right or wrong is illrelevant. Racism is a petty thing people get involved in.

    And besides all of that, there is not one instance where Allah revealed that discrimination is harram. If someone opened a store, it is halal for them to say “no black people may enter this store” A person can charge an amount for an arab, but charge twice as much for a european. And a person can refuse service to whom ever they like..if a person doesn’t like chinese people, he can refuse to serve them. And it is not harram.

  125. @my previous post.

    Though, if you refuse to server a muslim, and it harms him [his feeling, etc etc], then this becomes harram. Because your hurting a muslim.

  126. jafrbinnuh – Are you serious?

    I suggest you dust down your Quran and look into the story of Prophet Shuayb (as). Allah swt destroyed the Midanites for being unjust traders, amongst other things. Allah swt loves those who are fair and just in their dealings.

    There are many hadith and rulings derived both from them and of course the Quran concerning fair trade. Brother, please think before you make such statements about halal and haram.

  127. Jafrbinnuh,

    Would it not be cheating, lying, and simply wrong to charge one group a certain price and another group a higher one? You are certainly entitled to your opinion but I feel that when discussing whether a matter is haraam or halaal, a hadith or ayah from the Quran would be most appropriate.

    Discrimination and stereotypes are a few of the base mentalities Islam encourages us to rise above.

  128. Injustice is telling a merchant what price he is allowed to sell something it not?

    If i own something, you, nor anyone can specify the price i may sell it at. And there is no rule stating that the price i offer to one person, is the price i must offer to all people. If i sell 5 apples to someone for 1 dollar each, i am allowed to charge the next person 2 dollars each for 3 apples….etc etc.

    If i own a property, i have the right to say who is and who is not allowed on it. And there is nothing that says i must allow the rights i give to one person, to be attributed to all people. Say for instance someone is not a muslim [or even if they are] they do not have any binding right on me that says i have to allow them onto my property.

    If say, i drive a taxi, and the taxi is my property, and i am offering a service, there is nothing that says i MUST offer that service to everyone. For instance, if someone insults me, i don’t have to serve them. If someone directs insulting words toward Allah, i do not have to serve them.

    i’m not saying thats the best way to deal, but it is certainly not harram.

    Cheating is when you lie and tell someone something is worth more than it really is.

    I do not recall a rule stating a person must be ‘fair’. [what do we define as fair?]

  129. Jafr writes “And besides all of that, there is not one instance where Allah revealed that discrimination is harram. ”

    Wow, justifcation for a KKK branch of Islam. Your comments are insane and do not deserve further comment.

  130. Muslim First,

    The basic rule in trade is that you are free to sell YOUR property to whomever you wish at whatever price you wish. As long as the product is halaal–and you are confident that the halaal product will not be used for the haraam (like selling grapes to a person who will use them to make wine)–and it is clear what one is buying, then no cheating is involved. If i choose to sell you a shirt for $40, and i choose to “hook-up” my close friend with the same shirt for $5, no one is incurring a sin. If you don’t want to pay forty dollars for my shirt–or i prefer to sell it for five dollars to my friend, well we are both exercising our freedom of choice.

    Likewise, no one can force me to serve or sell to a person i don’t want to. At MY business (Islamically speaking), i can hire and fire whomever i want–for whatever reasons. I can pay one person $15 an hour, and hire another person to do the very same job for $6 an hour. If the latter agrees to work for that much (or little), and he is clear what his job entails, then i would not be cheating him. He is free to quit or not take the job. No one can force me to hire a person whom i don’t want to hire. I am not saying that i would advise someone to discriminate on the basis of race-ethnicity, because it could potentially harm the da`wah (and get a person in trouble with the secular law), but i am saying–from an Islamic point of view–such a person is not committing a sin.

    We discriminate and stereotype all the time. Experience (and common sense) teaches us to deal with different types of people differently. If i am out fishing in some hick town somewhere, and i encounter some swamp trash lookin’ kinda guy with ulcers in his mouth, well, i am going to assume he’s a meth-head, and i am going to have to look out for me and mine. Likewise, i know that i am not going to talk to a person with a Master’s from Yale the same way i am going to talk to a high school drop out from the projects. This is discrimination–and it ain’t necessarily a bad thing.

    Even during the time of the Prophet, there were tribes that were considered better than other tribes. It doesn’t mean that each individual of a particular tribe is superior to each individual of another tribe; however, if one group of people has produced more superior people than another group of people, then we can say that group (as a whole) is superior.

    The problem with “discrimination” is when looks down upon (or hates) another JUST BECAUSE the person is from a certain tribe, ethnicity, race, income, class, etc.–while IGNORING the person’s degree of piety. The superiority (or inferiority) of an individual is based upon their level of obedience to Allah. Some groups of people are more obedient to Allah than others–but each individual will be judged on the Day of Rising on his or her own merit (or lack thereof), and not their group’s.

    This is the problem with this so-called PC liberal analysis of the problems in the ghettos. And this disease of liberalism is a great disservice to those people caught up in ghetto life. Whatever evil the powers-that-be may do, EACH INDIVIDUAL will be responsible for his creed and deeds on the Judgment Day. That means that EACH INDIVIDUAL is OBLIGATED to believe in Allah and His Prophet CORRECTLY and reform himself–IN SPITE OF HIS CIRCUMSTANCES. On the Judgment Day, the crack fiend, prostitute, car jacker, con man, murderer, pimp, mugger will be accountable for what he (or she) did. They will not be able to say: “Well, duh MAN (racism/poverty/powers-that-be–or whatever excuse they may cook up in this world) made me this way.”

    Now the difference between the low-life human scum and the elite among the human devils is that the latter will be responsible FOR ALL THE SINS THAT THE LOW-LIVES COMMIT (for the demonic elite largely made and encouraged those circumstances). But at the same time, the low lives remain responsible for what they did. So all the drugs the (demonic) elite people ship in, the haraam they sell, the swine they slaughter (for consumption), the movies, books, videos, TV shows, etc. that encourage people to disobey Allah by way of drinking alcohol, fornication, banking, murder, encouragement to leave out doing Islamic religious duties, the blasphemy and propaganda against Islam, etc. will be on their necks. The powers-that-be will be carrying the sins of hundreds of millions-billions of people on the Judgment Day.

    So in Islam there is perfect justice. The one who commits a sin is responsible for what he did, while at the same time, those who invite others to sin, will be responsible for himself… and all those whom he misguided. If you want to help the poor, first and foremost teach them to fear Allah and how to obey Allah and avoid sins. When that happens, then the other matters will resolve themselves.

  131. Iblis, will carry the sins for all kuffar, because he started and spread the entire concept of kufr. He comited the first kufr amoung the jinn, and he caused the first kufr amoung humnas, he convinced the people of the time of Idris [as] to build statues, and he convinced the next generation to worship those statues. Iblis will have this on his neck, further more, those people that worshiped the statues, taught the next generation to do the same. And that, aswell, will be on the neck of Iblis. All the way till now, if someone worships a statue anywhere in this dunya….iblis will get many bad deeds and punishment for it, because he started it.

    If a John tells Joe that it is Halaal to ask Allah why someone has died. Not only is john going to have to answer for this act of kufr that he did [Questioning Allahs judgement is blasphemy], but he will ALSO have to answer for the kufr that he taught someone else. If Joe then teaches Ashley, John will have to answer for that aswell.

    Imam Muslim related, through the route of Jarir Ibn ^Abdullah, the Prophet said what means:



    I said that the powers that be will be responsible for ALL the sins of the lower class–i meant that, in general, and not categorically. There are some sins that the poor folks initiate on their own. However, the overall vice ridden circumstances in which many of the poor live under are largely made by the elite in order to keep the people oppressed.


    A note to Ibn Nuh:

    Asking Allah why such and such happened is not kufr, IF the person is pondering the wisdom in a matter. The person commits kufr when he OBJECTS to what Allah revealed, or to Allah’s Sacred Law, or OBJECTS to what Allah has willed to happen. This is the essence of submission, without which, a person’s Islam could not be valid.

  133. Of course swarthmoor, i should have stated it more clearly, when i said “Asking Allah why a person dies” as in, you soemtimes have these people, who during funerals, get emotinally distressed, and yell out ‘Why Allah did you take so and so, and not me?” or something to that effect, with the point being that a person would be implying that Allah did something that was incorrect. Or Unjust.

    Also, my last post got messed up, here is the text that was supposed to be printed after “Imam Muslim related, through the route of Jarir Ibn ^Abdullah, the Prophet said what means:”

    The one who innovates a good innovation in Islam has its reward and a reward similar to those who follow him in it–until the Day of Judgment–without lessening their reward. The one who innovates an innovation of misguidance would be sinful for it and has sins similar to those who follow him in it–until the Day of Judgment–without lessening their sins.

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