“Ugly Black Women”, Perfect Arab Wives, and Matters of Race

Sister Umm Adam over in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia, the same kingdom where you can get 200 lashes for talking to the media about being gang-raped and blamed for the crime, has an interesting piece on her experience with Saudi and other non-black women in Saudi Arabia who openly and matter-of-factly told her she was “black and ugly” and basically “how could a white man marry you”.

Despite what some Muslims may tell you, or to those who say I try and insert American notions of race in the Muslim World where they do not belong, race is very real in the Muslim World and particularly in the Arab World where black skin is seen as a sign of inferiority and this is something that predates colonialism.

Tawoos, a student of Abdullah Ibn Abbas (R.A.) and a Tabieen, believed to father children with black women was haram because it was “changing the creation”. Ibn Kaldun and Ibn Batutta, two men a lot of more liberal-minded Muslims like to quote, writings were full of statements demeaning to blacks.

I encourage all to read the the post by Umm Adam and to then check out the sister over at Southern Muslimah who has a heart-felt post about the number of heart-broken white women she knows who have suffered trying to be the “perfect Arab wife” and both posts speak to the fact that no matter how much you try to sweep these issues under the rug they are as real in Mecca as they are in Montgomery, AL.


94 thoughts on ““Ugly Black Women”, Perfect Arab Wives, and Matters of Race

  1. I often wonder how disillusioned Malcolm X would have been by Muslims’ attitudes towards race had he lived longer and had a chance to experience more of the Muslim world.

  2. I read the full post at Sister Umm Adam’s blog, and she doesn’t nearly display the sense of forced outrage you do, Umar. She laughs it off. A heinous crime takes place in Saudi Arabia and you tie it in to the ignorant rantings of a Saudi house wife to claim how rampant racism throughout the Islamic world. Not exactly the most scientific way to compile and analyze data :) Amazing how some are pedantically obsessed with the uninformed views of fools. In fact you’ve done the same thing numerous times against Arabs and Desis and their “lack of physique.”
    Who cares about a cyclone in Bangladesh killing thousands when you can just keep beating a dead horse? Give it a rest already.

  3. Muse
    I think Malcolm probably saw a lot of problems but was invested in downplaying or at least ignoring them. I simply see no way he could have travelled through parts of the Muslim world where open or de facto slavery of black people still was occurring and not noticed it. Malcolm was a huge influence on me, and I still respect him a lot, but there’s some extent to which I feel he was less than honest with himself and others about the realities of the Muslim world after he left the NOI.

  4. I still think you find more extreme forms of racism and hatred in the USA than you would ever find in the Muslim World. For instance, I couldn’t ever conceive of a crime the likes of what happened to James Byrd (the Texas man who was beat, tied to the back of a pickup truck, and dragged for 3 miles by some KKK members back in 1998) happening in Pakistan or here in Egypt. Dark-skinned people definitely encounter discrimination, but it’s not the malevolent, downright malicious kind that the US has a history of. In the Muslim World, the worst kind of racism might make it difficult for a dark-skinned person to get married or find a job. In the US, the worst kind of racism might get a black person killed simply because of who he is.

  5. I don’t know, DA. I tend to think that nuclear armed, mass murdering jewish terrorists are a bit of a concern then some unnamed ignorant Saudi housewife.
    But thats just me.

  6. I think Malcolm knew about the problems even from his NOI days. The Hajj is the ideal, the highest sacrament and it showed something that was impossible in America at the time. He was smart enough to distinguish between ISlam and Muslims.

  7. You know what, I’m very happy I wasn’t raised as a religious Muslim or socialized in the American Islamic community at a young age. What kind of naive fools are running around thinking that Arabs are perfect Muslims? Arabs were the first people to oppose Islam as much as they were the first to embrace it and spread it.

    Umar, Arab racism is not akin to American white racism. It is more akin to Latino racism. There are black Arabs that can be heads of state with no problem. Definitely dark skin and features that are considered “African” are not considered attractive generally in the Arab world. You also tend to overlook that Arabs are incredibly racist towards desi Muslims as well in the Gulf states.

    Race has always been a humongous issue in the Muslim world since the beginning. The Prophet (saws) in his last speech had to emphasize that there is no difference between the black and the white, Arab and non-Arab, because he knew that’s how people thought. The Arabs treated the Persians as inferior subjects even after they converted to Islam.

    As far as Ibn Khaldun and ibn Battutta, they said disparaging things about “Negroes” but they also said disparaging things about whites like Russians, who they thought were ugly and uncivilized as well. Who did Ibn Khaldun think was beautiful? Of course other Arabs! Ibn Battutta to his credit said that the women of Mali or Mauritania were exceedingly beautiful and that the men were noble of character.

    The Muslim invasion of India, as much as Indian Muslims would like to think that it was a liberator for our low caste Hindu ancestors, downtrodden by the caste system, didn’t do much for the vast majority of them even after converting to Islam. One reason is that the Muslim elite(“elite” because they had weapons and horses to kill people mind you, not in matters of the deen) from places like Persia, Afghanistan, and Central Asia completely looked down upon the new “low born” converts. Wazirs even twisted Quranic verses to justify discriminating against other Muslims!It was only through Allah’s Blessing that Islam spread amongst the Indians despite this racism from their own brothers!

    Islam tells us to be faithful, but to be realistic. Racism is real, therefore it should not be seen as some faith breaking epiphany that some of you seem to make it to be. And really there’s nothing we can do as AMERICAN MUSLIMS about what’s going in Saudi Arabia or Pakistan or Sudan or Nigeria or wherever. All we can do is try to establish our community much stronger so that it prospers and grows. Inshallah this will happen. The younger desi and Arab Muslims are Americanised. They have been humbled. We learn from our black American Muslims brothers and sisters. And vice versa. They can teach us how to be more vocal and better organized for our community and how we can integrate American culture and Islam, we could teach them how to keep the family unit stronger, how to prosper in business, how to succeed in education. Muslims in this country should be the helpers of each other. The black Muslim community’s problems are the entire Muslim community’s problems and vice versa. Cyclones in Bangladesh, Israel Palestine, getting our brothers and sisters coming out of jails jobs and a decent livelihood so that they don’t go back, these are all Muslim problems insofar as there are Muslims suffering through these. Really, Islamically, even if they weren’t affecting Muslims, these would still be our concerns, it is our duty to fight injustice wherever we live. Fighting injustice is a sure path to Jannah….it is more important than the length of your beard. Muslims need to understand the spirit of Islam, they stuck on the costumes, the outer forms.

    Anyway, before I start going off on some stream of consciousness type , Imma cut it. But Muslims stop the beefing and focus on here in front of you right now where your effort can help somewhere.

  8. as salaamu alaykum,

    The people who whine about “too much race talk” are usually the ones who are effected least by the racism. Please, if you want to live in a cave be my guest, but those of us who have to shoulder this burden have a right to discuss it until we hit on some solutions or at least can share the burden and lighten the load for a while.

    Keep up the talk Umar, people need to hear it whether they like to or not…and no one forces any0ne to read a blog.

  9. Good point Umar, although many Muslims would rather see this discussion focused on non-Muslims against Muslims as a racial bigotry, which we all know is a misnomer, since Islam is not a race.

    It does however touch on another important variable. Is there internal racial bigotry in the Islamic community and more specifically, do Arab Muslims view black Muslims as inferior on certain levels?

    I think you already know the answer to that question, based on this post. Also, does anyone view the atrocities currently taking place in Darfur as racially motivated, internal bigotry?

    I am quite interested in this topic.

  10. ‘the same kingdom where you can get 200 lashes for talking to the media about being gang-raped and blamed for the crime’

    Wasn’t she given this punishment because she was out with non-mahram men? I don’t think they punished her because she was raped.

  11. I agree that there are negative conceptions regarding race that pre-date colonialism. Imam Ash-Shafi’i (RH) also made a demeaning statement regarding blacks.

    When I was in Al-Madinah 3 years ago, I was called a “slave.” I heard the term abeed everyday for 6 days straight.

    In saying all of that, I still think that race relations over there are better than here. For every ignorant Saudi or Kuwayti that I met or saw, I met multiple Saudis that were very kind and generous.

    I met a jet black brother named Abu Talib in fact that was from Ahl Sa’ud, who had lighter skinned Arabs at his beck and call. The tribal patronage system along with the color issue makes that area much different than here in regards to race relations.

    I’ve met Iraqis also that have told me that they prefer darker women. “A single mole is beautiful, and a woman whose entire skin resembles a mole is even more beautiful” was a quote that I heard from more than one brother.

    Let us work on our `asabiyyah issues in the States.

  12. Subhannallah,

    Why are Muslims so afraid to talk about issues that affect the Muslim community? Race, Sex, Drugs, Fornication are real issues and talking about it will start a healing process. I don’t believe talking about our issues will ‘help” fuel the non-Muslim hatred towards us—because they (of course not all of them) will always hate Muslims until they see us converting to their religion.

    I grew up with neighbors who were supporters of whites only (N. Virginia) urbanization, they spat on us, called us jungles monkeys, Sub-humans and many more names—(just like Unlissted calls people names) anyway. We lived next to them for 20 years—when it snowed we would clean they sidewalk and so on but instead of a Thank You—they called us more names. But one day the Mother (who was the most hateful of them) applied at the school district and the school send questioners to her neighbors as references—I was so pissed that I started to write all the terrible things they did to us—but I was new Muslim and I felt bad—so I wrote great stuff about them. She got the job and months passed by and she finally came to our house to apologize for her 20 years of hate.

    A year later I went for Umarah and my experience with Saudis was not that great. I remember we had a group of mix brothers, white, black and latinos—one day while were at the Haram; a Salafi brother who happened to be African American student from the “great” Umm Al Qura came to us all pissed off. We asked him what was wrong, he said “these (Suadis) are a bunch a racist/ arrogant hypocrites” and we also saw how they treated the Pakis and Africans.

    At least Americans are willing to change unlike (some) Arabs who called blacks Abdi because they are from “the Kingdom”- same goes for other Muslims—such as the Pashtoons (the use the Punjabi word instead the “N”), racism is real—don’t hide it; let the healing start- isn’t that what Al Walaa wal Baraa’ means?

  13. you know its funny that racism against dark people is always mentioned…but when i was growing up in the inner cities of Amerikkka it was the darkskinned people that i had to knockout…my point black Americans can be just as racists and cultural and disrespectful as the next man…

  14. Assalaamu alaikum.

    “the same kingdom where you can get 200 lashes for talking to the media about being gang-raped and blamed for the crime”.

    If i understand your tone correctly, which i think i do, Allah knows best though, i find this comment extremely insulting. Although i dont expect you to care about how i feel since you dont know me, i feel strongly about this since it implies an insult to the ministry of justice here in the kingdom, at the head of which is shaikh Saalih Al-Luhaydaan, the noble esteemed scholar and other noble scholars of ahlus sunnah. If you dont know already the ministry has endorsed this ruling according to the papers here in the kingdom.

    Its really beyond me how a person like yourself, who is respected amongst many of the muslims in the usa, i said many not most nor all, can make such an insinuating comment, actually its a cheap shot, about this ruling when you probably dont know much more than what was reported in the press.

    Ajeeb really.

    oh Allah take this person to task for what he said if he insulted this country, the judges, the scholars. aameen. I complain to Allah of your horrible manners and insulting comments.

    Also akhi, in the past you see (and even now), people were encouraged to remain quiet if they did not have anything good to say. Ulama themselves would refrain from commenting on issues of the deen which they thought they didnt understand and were generally afraid of being questioned regarding what they said in front of Allah.

    I am sure you know the hadeeth about it from rasoolullah regarding the one who believes in Allah and the last day. to remain quiet….

    why is it that all of this has gone over your head? If you want to coemment on issues in ur local community which you are aware of and fully understand, ok fine it is understandable.

    But are you a scholar? or some type of a leader amongst the muslims that you see yourself fit write as you please?

    Where is your adherence to the sunnah? did you forget about the hadeeth? I dont think you forgot, personally, maybe you just dont understand its importance. Another indication that you should maybe restrict your blogging endeavors to more local issues.

    Frustrating brother Umar, i wish you were here in saudi so that we could both go to the ulama and present your blanket statement quoted above to see how just and fair it was.

    I am salafi, i also take offense to what you write regarding the salafis and what you say about them, but that is just a side note.

    Finally i am writing this to inshaallah establish for myself if you are really as irresponsible and ignorant as i have thought. it would be some type of hujjah for myself, that this person berated the ministry of justice in this country, and how foolish would that be.

    alhumdulillahi rabbil aalameen.

  15. Fortunately, there’s no such thing as an ugly black woman.

    I wish brother Malcolm was here, we need more Muslim men like Malcolm, and more black men like Malcolm.

    There was a time I’d give dawah on black forums. They used to laugh when I’d post articles about islam being free of racism. As Muslims we have a long way to go, 95 percent of our hearts are diseased and blackened.

  16. DrM I think everyone has a right to discuss or talk about whatever they feel its important to them, ESPECIALLY on their blog lol. Yes the cyclone in Bangladesh happened and so are many other tragic and happy things .. all around the world.

  17. Shariq,

    If the Prophet(pbuh) were here, would he condemn a woman who has been gang raped by criminals to 200 lashes for being with a non-mahram?! A victim being victimized all over again?

    If you feel there is miscoverage going on then please do explain the real situation. It is not just western media covering this but also independent media outlets such as Aljazeera.
    “O ye who believe stand up firmly for justice. Even if it be against yourself”

  18. DrM, don’t you think the way you’re talking about UmmAdam (“ignorant Saudi housewife”) is something that neither Allah nor His Messenger (sallallaahu ‘alaihi wa sallam) would approve of?
    You may disagree with her opinions, but to insult her like that is shocking!

    What has happened to adab and akhlaaq, in both the real world and the cyber-dunya? :(

  19. This is a complex topic, but it should not be swept under the rug–or dismissed with platitudes about how there is “no racism” among the Muslims. I’ve lived in Arab countries, and quite frankly, i don’t understand the rationale behind Arab racism (of which there is no shortage).

    Let it be said that Arab racism is different from white (American) racism (WAR). WAR is based upon the notion of racial purity and the concept of “whiteness.” And white men have sought to preserve their “whiteness” at all costs. This is what fed into the various genocidal policies/apartheid systems that were established in the name of “whiteness.” The same can’t be said of Arab racism, for we find “Arabs” all different shades and “races.”

    Personally, i don’t understand the psychology of Arab racism, and i find that it is too difficult and sensitive for many Arabs to deal with (the same can be said of most African-Americans (AA)–but i am open and frank in discussing these matters, so i don’t get offended by generalizations). I believe a lot of Arab racism is tied into their tribal system, which i don’t understand, and don’t have much interest in. The other source of Arab racism is not so much race, but class.

    When i was overseas, i received my share of donkey brays from driver-bys. And i would be snubbed in public places (and i ain’t the kind of guy who takes every snubbing as a racial one–but in some countries, it was just open and a fact of life). However, when it was found out that i was an AMERICAN, almost without exception, the attitude almost immediately changed (and usually followed up with a question about how can one get a green card. Given that to be the case of the people i generally dealt in the streets, i went out of my way to speak VERY CLEAR ENGLISH and make it a point to inform folks what passport i was carrying.

    The other aspect of class, that people have to keep in mind is the reality of what has been the status of blacks in the Arab world. In many cases, blacks were slaves, and as a rule, people don’t look up to slaves. And likewise, today, when we look at “black” Africa, we find that it is a MESS. Countries with little infrastructure that have mass starvations or with 1/3 of the population is infected with HIV/AIDS just don’t garner the respect of people.

    This problem is further compounded when Arabs come to the States and see the conditions of neighborhoods with black majorities. Many AA Muslims have this idealism that people will respect them and honor them, while failing to take into consideration human nature. Everyone loves a winner, and the condition of black Africa/black America don’t reflect a culture of winners. (Now the reasons WHY black folks are in their condition altogether, but most people don’t care about the “whys” of things–they care about what they can see.)


  20. DrM
    Riiiiiight, and some dumb messed up Jewish girl drawing a swastika on her own door is part of the Judeofascist global conspiracy right? Much more important than anything we could turn a blind eye to in the Muslim world. The only difference between you and Robert Spencer is that he can afford a better brand of coffee.

    You raise some very good points. However, I still believe American Muslims need to be willing to look at problems occurring both here and abroad critically and intelligently, as we are still linked to them.

    Well, esteemed legal scholar Alberto Gonzales has my trust, so GITMO is okay.

  21. I have mixed feelings about the post and some of the comments above. I don’t think we should sweep race under the rug but I really don’t think that the racism displayed by some Arabs comes even remotely close to the racism of the US. The racism of the US is extremely systematic and involves way more than thinking of black women as ugly. Some Arabs have very racist ideas about blacks and do consider blacks inferior but at the end of the day, a black could probably get much further in an Arab society than most blacks get in the US.

    That being said, I get tired of some Muslims complaining when race is discussed and then comparing the plight of say, African American Muslims to Muslims in Palestine. There is no such thing as the “oppression Olympics” (as one professor of mine put it) but we act as if there is. Is the plight of Muslims in Palestine or Bangladesh more holy than the plight of Muslims in American ghettos or Darfur?

  22. With the above said, i don’t feel utterly pessimisitic about the situation. I think that black Americans offer a unique perspective on the situation of race throughout the world. For one, African-Americans have thought this race thing out better than just about any other people of color. In spite of all the issues AA culture may have in regards to race, ultimately, it is seen as good to be cool with the skin one’s in.” And to say otherwise gets you immediately excommunicated from most circles of “blackness.”

    Also, you have had the various black nationalist/quasi-Islamic groups who have ripped this race thing apart. (And this is a point that many immigrant Muslims, who while wrongly thinking themselves to be “white,” fail to realize that Islamophobia is based on racism as much as it is on religious bigotry.) You have numerous black American writers who have examined that white supremacy is largely based upon a sense of racial/sexual inadequacy amongst whites (Americans).

    What AA need to understand is that they will never have respect until they produce (prominent) high caliber leadership. To date this has not happened. African-Americans have not yet produced a hero who can speak not only to the needs and aspirations of black America–but to the world. The closest person we have produced was Malcolm X. However, he did not live very long (after converting to Islam), and he was not adequately equipped with Religious knowledge.

    Since the time of Malcolm, folks did the apologist W.D. Mohammed thing, and the Saudi thing (in large numbers). Whereas, WD did attempt to address the plight of AA, he and his group suffered from a dearth of Religious knowledge. And the case for the people on the Saudi program, they did not provide black America with a vaster vision, and they, too, were inadequately equipped in regards to traditional Religious knowledge/sciences.

    What Islam affords AA that they could never have found in negro (or European) Christianity or the various black nationalist/Pan-African ideologies that have evolved over the decades, is first and foremost the means of earning Paradise. In the immediate sense, Islam (and learning and applying traditional knowledge) connects AA’s with an intellectual heritage/legacy that goes beyond Europe–this legacy includes black Africa, wherein, black people played a dynamic role. And by learning the orthodox Islamic Creed, he/she is equipped with the intellectual confidence to dismantle the various batil (invalid) European philosophies/ideologies.

    By way of learning orthodox fiqh, AA’s can establish a clear set of guidelines for what is acceptable and unacceptable behavior, as well as, a system for social organization. And by learning traditional Islamic spirituality, one has the means by which to begin to cope with the pathologies stemming from the legacy of slavery and with the rijis (filth/corruption) that infects so hearts of black Americans.

    Another boon of Islam to AA’s is that Islam expands the horizons of black America–and its notions of race. Many AA’s are trapped in a psychological labyrinth of race/color. (That’s not to say that many Muslims aren’t racist, but they have different notions of race/identity.) Many of us feel that “race” as it is currently (or at least for the past century and a half or so) understood in the USA is a static and unchanging matter. Black folks need to understand that “race” itself is flexible–and it would not be wise to invest all of one’s sense of being into the complexion of your skin. And lastly, as one poster said, other Muslims (from different countries) can help AA’s learn how to resolve their problems. We (AA’s) can learn about the importance of family values and education, which is stressed among some of the immigrant cultures, and we can also learn how NOT to do certain things, just as the immigrant Muslims can learn much from the African-Americans.

  23. I must be missing something, but what is the relation between the Arab Shi’i sister in Saudi Arabia, who was sentenced to 200 lashes with the “Ugly Black Women” topic? Pardon me for my ignorance if I missed the connection.

    In regards to some of the previous comments, the reality is that there is racism among Muslims. However, the way in which we address this topic could do more harm and alienate people from working towards a viable solution. We all know the stories of even Sahabah having racial issues such as when Abu Dharr (RA) referred to Bilal (RA) as “Ibn Sawdaa” or when Suhayl ibn Amr referred to Bilal (RA) as “Ghuraab Aswad.” Race issues among Muslims have and will always exist until the Last Days.

    The question is how are we going to create a constructive environment here in AMERICA to discuss this issue by bringing out issues and solutions based upon Qur’an and Sunnah without attacking whole groups of people?

    We care for Muslims all over the globe, but my responsibility is to make things better here, not in Saudi Arabia, Kuwayt, Pakistan, Turkey etc. There are centuries of dysfunction there, which we have no socio-political influence over. Why even get bogged down with those matters? Discuss them to draw parallels for here, AMERICA.

    Let us establish a WORKING model here in regards to economic ties, spousal relations and a shared input in regards to Muslim public relations among the various ethnic and idealogical groups in America. If we establish the model here, people in Saudi Arabia and Pakistan will come here to study the model, insha’ALLAH. We have to accept firstly that there is NO WORKING MODEL that exist today.

    WALLAHU `Alim.

  24. I live in Saudi and even though I am American I’ve had to hide the fact that I’m part Paki. It’s a sad fact but everyone here gets treated by their color and the color of their passport. Everyone falls into a caste system; Non-Muslims/Europeans/Americans are all at the top of the cast, followed by Muslims from Western Countries, followed by Arab Nationals, Filipinos, then Pakistanis & Afghanis and the Bangladeshis, Indians, and Indonesians are at the bottom of the pyramid.
    Had I mentioned to my employers that I was part Paki i would have been given a lousy salary.

  25. This reminds me of when a friend and I were in Jubail a few years back.

    We were invited to a village, and upon entering went to the masjid as it was maghreb. After the prayer, the guy that had invited us to the village introduced us to one of his uncles. Now this uncle was very friendly, spoke reasonably good English, and seemed to be pretty pious. We got talking and he asked if we were both married. Upon affirming this, he asked where our wives were from, and this is how the rest of the dialogue went:

    Us: Yeah, they’re from England.

    Him: Are they British?

    Us: Yeah.

    Him: White, ya’nee?

    Us: erm.. no, they’re both Somali.

    Him: Somali?! You mean….. black woman ya’nee?!

    Us (looking at each other, quite bemused): Yeah…

    Him: Lot’s of people in the west marry black woman…. but WHY?!

    Shit man… astaghfirullah. I thought ‘My dad’s friggin black you racist bastard… why the hell wouldn’t I wanna marry a black woman?’

    It has affected me, as whenever I’m asked where my wife’s from I always keep it to, ‘England’ and she’s ‘British’. Not because I’m ashamed of her, but because I don’t want to have to smack the crap out of another Muslim if they respond in a worse way than that guy did.

  26. Modern Muslimah,

    I think that a distinction needs to be made between racism historically speaking in the US, and what is happening today in the US because of multiculturalism and the so-called Politically Correct Culture. I am no apologist for American racism, but things are rapidly changing in the US (simply consider the popularity of Barak Obama). I say that the reduction of racism not necessarily completely positive and wholesome sense, however, because much of what is taking place is obviously nothing other than social engineering by the folks up top. (All one needs to do is look how public opinion has been flipped in little more than a decade regarding homosexuality.) I believe that the PC attack on racism is more about effacing local and ethnic identity to supplant it with a global consumer culture identity, than it is about mending and reconciling the hearts in a sound and just framework for people to conduct their lives.

    With that said, i can concede that a “black” person in (many) of the Arab countries can rise to prominence easier than a black person in the US. But i would have to ask: “At what costs?” or “In what way?” Could a black person in the Middle East gain a leadership position while speaking specifically about racism in the Middle East?

    In America, on the other hand, speaking about racial matters has historically been about the only way (barring a few exceptions) that Black leaders could rise to prominence in America. This is an interesting nuance to the discussion. And i think race/racism needs to be discussed, because the racist, or at least culturally insensitive behavior of immigrant Muslims, has repelled an untold number of black Americans from Islam. Racism, point blank, is bad for the da`wah.

  27. Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) married his HASHEMITE cousin to a freed Ethiopian slave!!! Current Saudi crown prince has had children from a Black Saudi woman, the long-time Saudi ambassador in the US was one of them, Bandar bin Sultan >>> http://www.watan.com/upload/Bandar_Main.jpg

    Kuwait’s emir who abdicated (or forced to) about a year ago, due to health reasons, after being for so many years the crown prince, his name was Saad and he was Black >>> http://www.aljazeera.net/mritems/images/2006/1/15/1_590509_1_34.jpg
    his father (a former Kuwaiti amir) was as white as the snow, but that didn’t stop him from having kids from a Black Kuwaiti woman >>> http://kuwait777.com/kuwait/images/shekh-1-05.jpg

    I bet those stupid, ignorant Arab women can’t be looked at without makeup, and most non-Gulf Arabs wouldn’t marry them except if they had money AND while most likely cheating on them or having another wife in secret!!! Many stupid Arab women from the Gulf region view themselves with tremendous inferiority due to their own dark skin. Just look at the TV series and see the tonnes of makeup they wear to make themselves as white this UmarLee blog’s background, while the Arab men in those ‘soap operas’ maintain the original dark skin of Arabs from that region!!!

    A hilarious example is what this Bahraini Black singer >>> http://a7lam.8m.com/a7lam.pic10.jpg

    did to herself to make herself more appealing / fairer >>> http://www.sayidaty.net/SiteImages/News/1693.jpg

    These are the women our sister Margari saw in Kuwait and praised so much!!!

    Makeup and money can do wonder, but it won’t change your genes. We saw Oprah Winfrey without makeup, we also saw White woemn who are entertainment and movie stars without makeup!! Those stupid Arab women think that Whites are inherently beautiful without makeup???

    I personally saw more beautiful Black girls / women than I ever did Arab girls / women!! I know quite a number of Palestinians who married Black Sudanese Arabs.

    Blacks don’t differ much from Arabs, even in the Arab’s whitest regions, the Levant, as we Arabs would have kinky, rug-like hair, big noses (Blacks have wide ones), and I’d say that half of Arabs are dark and 1/3 are probably Black.

    I dare those women to leave the house the way Allah created them.

  28. The people who whine about “too much race talk” are usually the ones who are effected least by the racism.

    soo truee

    i think the reference to the saudi woman that got sentenced to being lashed after she was gang raped was a reminder that it is one messed up society over there
    I heard it’s an incredibly racist society.

  29. “Tawoos, a student of Abdullah Ibn Abbas (R.A.) and a Tabieen, believed to father children with black women was haram because it was “changing the creation”. Ibn Kaldun and Ibn Batutta, two men a lot of more liberal-minded Muslims like to quote, writings were full of statements demeaning to blacks.”

    You are correct about Ibn Khaldun and Ibn Batutta; but I think you should attribute their attitudes exactly to their “rationalism”, and “free-thinking” (sunnah-free in this case).

    As far as Tawoos is concerned, his comment does not seem to be racist in the sense that he considered black people inferior; he obviously believed that “mixing colors” equals changing Allah’s s.w.t. creation, since Allah s.w.t. is the One who created different races and colors in the first place. I too have heard this for the first time, and I don’t know of any other authority who held/holds such an opinion.

  30. “Despite what some Muslims may tell you, or to those who say I try and insert American notions of race in the Muslim World where they do not belong, race is very real in the Muslim World and particularly in the Arab World where black skin is seen as a sign of inferiority and this is something that predates colonialism.”

    This is something that predates islam; it is called jahiliyyah. Zayd bin Haritha (RA), Bilal (RA), Usama bin Zayd (RA), and many others, all were black (to my knowledge); and the Prophet (pbuh) had nothing but love for them. The Comment from Umar (RA) comes to mind as well (about “our Master freeing our Master”, i.e. Abu Bakr (RA) buying Bilal’s (RA) freedom).
    My point is that we have a solution to this problem because of the simple fact that Islam, unlike Christianity (slave-holders in the South used certain Biblical verses to justify the enslavement of black people), was never uncertain about people being different only with regards to religion and piety, and nothing else, including race, nation and tribe; but it seems that some people prefer to live in jahl.

    This post seems very strange considering the one about Morocco (not) being the solution; if black brothers are considered “inferior” by some know-nothings, how do they get to marry Arab women? (this is actually a question, not a critique, since I am not aware of all the details on both questions).

  31. Gomez….No one called you a name …….You stuck on nationalism and affirmative action…dude get a life!!!!!!!! ..Talk to me when you leave your corner-store bodayga mentality…….The Prophet said: Whoever calls with the class of Jahileeyah Then let him bite the head of his father’s penis(Adab mufrad bukhari) Unlissted2007

  32. RandomDudette, I did NOT call UmmAdam an ignorant housewife. I was referring to the ignorant Saudi woman she was talking to. Reread my post.

    Dave, you’re the idiot who brought Israel into the discussion, not me. Spare me your failed attempts at wit and distractions.

    UmmAli and rest who think that those some of us don’t care about racism..you could not be more mistaken. I’ve dealt with all types. Theres a big difference between an ignorant harmless Saudi housewife and a hooded criminal who burns a cross on your front lawn. Its people like you who have trivialized charges of racism into an everyday joke by invoking it right, left and center.

  33. alSalaam alaykom

    What would give anyone the idea that us Saudis are Not racists? We never hide it, or cover it up – there is no need – for we are also tought from birth that Racisim will take us straight to hell if we do not fight it. We do have great Imams telling us how bad it is, and we know it is a true sin. It’s used among us as a sing for who is to lead prayers, for the ability to fight racisim is highly emphasisezed in Islam – it’s always a major sin – and we are to pity racisist, and parents are to punish there kids for it to. Raceisim will lead many Saudis to hell, that I learned from many a Saudi Imam, no excuses at all for it, but it exists and no one would dare cover it up for we would them share in it’s sin.

    As for the rape case, I’ll be glad when the Saud family stops firing and jailing good judges and promoting bad ones that support their rule – this is just one example – and the whole of Saudi society is going down a bad road these days – not for long I hope. The lawyer in this case is often jailed for standing up for human rights, one of the good ones that I know annoy the powerful here.

    I am salafi to, by birth and still have no theological reason to leave it – but love seeing it get bad press for it honestly does need lots of improving. The thing to mind is that the angery young Saudi Salafi men would be angry whatever their religon or sect – they can chose to calm down and drop anger if they read it correctly, but have no one else to blame if they do not.

    I love Saudi, not much I need to tell anyone here about Islam – but we can be just as nasty even if we know what is right – no need to apoligize for it, for we will pay in hell to the full satisfaction of all vicitms our raceists acts and remarks – same as all raceisits. The Black women in the example will have full justice as stated Many times in the Quran, nothing in Islam gives anyone the right to insult her or her race. Arabs say stupid things untill they become Muslim enough to fear God enough to mind their tounges (Taqwa) – same as all other races, we all have to learn, or keep on being stupid.

    Raceisim is one thing I always look for Imams to avoide like the plague, anti-Semitiesim to – for Mohamed’s (pbuh) Jewish wife (raa) faced it during his life and after his death to. It does exist, but is always a bad dark sin – “Tholom” – not something any Muslims would want to be accused of even a little bit.


  34. I may be generalizing but it seems that in the US – one feels a lot of pressure not to say anything critical or incisive about anything- if you criticize AIPAC you’re an anti-semite, if you bring up tribalism in Arab cultures- you’re an a bigot or anti-Muslim, if you criticize a woman- you’re a sexist, bla bla bla. I’d say that PC is actually exacerbating extremism because nothing angers a person so much as being pressured to shut up or spit out platitudes under duress. In Europe- as PC as it might seem- you can still discuss just about anything without getting attacked personally- perhaps they are more used to holding sustained conversations.

  35. Baltasar – I think Europe has more PC laws controlling public speech. A German pastor was arrested recently for comparing abortion to the WWII holocaust in a sermon.

    When I look at the teasing going on in old US TV sit coms, I realize how constrained we have become.

  36. bismillah
    as salaamu alaikum
    umar – i really dont believe tawoos said this ahkhee but since u said just bring the proof.

    mustafa i agree with u if the state did have any authentic basis then that was his opinion about changing the creation of Allah, and everyone’s statement if subject to rejection except the Prophet. however that would constitute that he thought blacks were inferior 1 reason being this would mean he thought many companions as inferior. and i think u may have just typed the word ”inferior”ccidently barakalaahu feekum.
    but like i said i dont believe this is from tawoos I WANNA SEE THAT PROOF UMAR IF YOU HAVE ANY.

  37. As salaamu alaykum,

    Br. Dr M. I respect you and I appreciate a lot of your opinions. In fact, it’s rare that I disagree with you from what I read of your blog posts and comments. But I think you are missing out on something very key here. Racism does not have to be physically threatening or violent to be hurtful, in fact to be traumatizing.

    You may think that the comments of an ignorant woman are meaningless, but they become downright oppressive when you hear them your ENTIRE life. This is even more hurtful for those of us and our little black children (even those of us with mixed-race children btw who could “pass”) who hate going to the masjid because of the racism they face there. This is very significant to their Islamic identity when the only space they have to fully express their spirituality and Muslim identity is filled with racist rejection. This becomes downright oppressive when parents move from one Muslim space to the next and keep finding the same problems. You are trivializing the issue and I believe it’s because you haven’t taken the time to try and relate. It’s not about “crying” racism or even being a victim. In fact that’s one thing I find attractive and refreshing about discussion of race on this blog and a few others, no one is waddling in victimhood. That doesn’t mean we can’t or shouldn’t have honest discussions about this social and spiritual illness and those who suffer less *need* to listen to those of us who have years of direct experience and stop trying to silence us which only deepens the divide.

    Tariq Nelson has some old posts on the nasty racism he’s dealt with from children in the masjid. Ignorant people and their attitudes are very significant.

  38. “philly salafi”

    Of course Tawus (radiallahu anhu) said it, it’s one of his recorded fiqh opinions. The Salaf differed with one another on fiqh issues and we have to respect their ijtihad.

  39. bismilllah
    as salaamu alaikum
    tawheedullh – if he said it all im asking u to do is to PROVIDE THE PROOF. thats all barakalaahu feekum.

  40. I think people who athink it is far better in America for Blacks, people of color, and minorities in general, are happily patting themselves on the back with their heads up their butts.

    Interestingly, similar “colorblind” language is taught in the country where I live (in the GCC) within the Islamic studies segment of primary school curriculum. As in, racism is bad, racism ended long ago, and people are all people, don’t see race, look at all of the hadeeths against racism, look at the roles of these three historically important Black people, yadda yadda. The students are taught that and can parrot it all just like many Americans. But at the same time they say and do other things that reflect deeply ingrained racist attitudes. Hmmm, sounds familiar. Just like the US.

    I sometimes ponder which is sadder, that the US had a huge social movement in which people fought for equal treatment and left us with a legacy of struggling for (but certainly not fully achieving) racial equality, or that Islam is supposed to uplift us above these racist attitudes and practices. But ideals don’t work on the ground in either case. Sad indeed.

  41. I feel that when Black American woman becomes Muslim she gets a big gigantic social demotion. And it is okay to sling lots of mud her way. It is especially the case for any educated, working class, or middle class woman. It is sad, but true. Some of the crap I read in blogistan really reinforce that. As a Black woman you’re just supposed to get crumbs on the table. And you’re just supposed to be happy that Muslims tolerate you, aren’t burning crosses on your lawn or pushing you in the back of the bus. You’re just supposed to be swallow people telling you that your people are ugly and stupid. But that’s okay, cause you’re the exception. Sheesh…

    My Lebanese friend said that it must be hard to get married because I’m Black AND Muslim. She said, especially as a Black woman. I corrected her and said no, it has been much harder finding a suitable match because I’m Muslim. Now 98% of eligible males in my social environment are no longer available because they are not Muslim. The 2% of Muslims are either immigrants or your rare sprinkling of African American men. The immigrant men are too conservative to even dream of marrying a Black woman cause their mother wouldn’t approve of it. Black Muslim men who are giving dawah to their girlfriends or looking to marrying an Arab or Asian woman. Don’t get me started on the slim pickings and complications with African American men. I’m not into some epic-like battles with all the women clamoring for the few decent and many not so decent men.

    As for Black women being considered ugly. I’m not sure if those views are universal. Not everybody assumes I’m some foreigner, as all three places I’ve travelled to have significant Afro-Arab populations. I know that fair and lovely trumps all in the beauty department. But it still surprises me when someone finds me attractive or even a woman in some random Middle East country comments that I’m pretty.

    I don’t know, but Black American Muslims to recover a sense of themselves on two fronts. One, the Eurocentricism and then they get a global dose of anti-African bias by joining the Ummah. Marhaba!!

    Lucky Fatima,
    ” I think people who athink it is far better in America for Blacks, people of color, and minorities in general, are happily patting themselves on the back with their heads up their butts”
    I suppose your argument depends on whether or not that African American has travelled abroad.

    Right now the jury’s out. I’ll let you know how I feel about whether life is grander in America or in the Middle East by next September. And bet, I won’t have my head up my butt nor will I be patting myself on the back.

  42. Swarth Moor, I love what you’ve written. (((((APPLAUSE))))

    Question: Why do we (blacks) feel the need for validation from outside forces when we don’t validate ourselves?

    Frankly, I could care less about what some Arab (except my DH), Desi, or European thinks or feels about me; at the same time I will make correct any misperceptions they have about blacks and native americans. I know all blacks are from the inner cities, I’ve been fortunate enough to live amongst all classes of blacks and whites, and others and learned people are people. The disenfranchised and dehumanized in the inner cities are no different than those in rural america or the middle east.

    What hurts me (and I’m certain many black women) is when black men (muslim and non Muslim) sit back and allow others (regardless of color, ethnicity, gender, or religion) to disrespect us (black women) by keeping quiet or jumping on the bandwagon. Or when a black man who doesn’t want to marry or date within his race, makes sweeping negative generalizations about black women.

    We will gain respect when the world sees the black man protecting, respecting, and uplifting his black women. You (black men) don’t have to marry us and vice versa, but don’t sit back and allow ANYONE to insult or disrespect us even if it’s another black/brown person. The children your nonblack wife/girlfriend (or husband/boyfriend)give birth to are still black (Metisé), and there is a ALOT of beauty, honor, and greatness in being black.

  43. Bint Will,

    It is about dealing with people with wisdom, and taking advantage of your circumstances. First and foremost, one need to keep in mind the matters of obedience. If some one is racist towards me, well, i am not sinful for his racism; however if i am patient with his racism, i get thawaab (reward); likewise, if i can somehow, perhaps indirectly, give my Brother or Sister a lesson about why racism is deleterious to their spiritual (and social) health, i can even further my reward. Ultimately, if i handle myself correctly, it’s a win-win situation dealing with racists. This has nothing to do with shuckin’ and jivin’, but it is about making the most of one’s situation.

    Regarding AA’s we need to be honest about how we are seen by others. And we need to work to eradicate those things in black culture which give A WHOLE LOT OF CREDENCE to the black stereotypes. Almost without exception, where there is a high concentration of AA’s, there is a high concentration of social dysfunction and crime. And unlike the poor dysfunctional whites who are located for the most part in regions distant from urban areas, the blighted black neighborhoods are usually a stone’s throw from the central business district of most cities. Few see the jacked up areas of white America; whereas, black American ghettos are available for all to see.

    Black men and black women also need to examine themselves, and the negative behaviors that prevail amongst their genders. This requires maturity, and it requires confidence. When we look at and within ourselves, we are going to find a whole lot of scat that we cannot be happy with. But nobody can change our condition. It is on us. And that transformation can only change with learning and applying what Allah has revealed unto the Prophet.

  44. Keeping with the latest theme of Bint Will and Swarth Moor of “black introspection,” one of the biggest problems, I see of African-Americans is the disintegration of the traditional family. We seem to have become a Matriarchal race, with the Grandmother and the Mother having the most prominent positions. Bint Will, we do not allow our grandmothers and mothers to be disrespected, but I do agree this has to also be extended to non-related black females as well.

    We have become Matriarchal in a sense because men have not played their traditional roles in the family, by and large they are not the maintainers or supporters of women rather it is the reverse. This appears to be the case due to the number of dysfunctions that plague black males. We are the least likely to get married and the most likely to have children with different women, most of which are not supported. So who’s teaching the young black males to men, its only so much our mothers and grandmothers can teach us in that regard, so this is why we are foremost in calling black women hoes and Bit@#$. Due to the lack of any paternal guidance, the young black males are out of control.

    In my estimation, black people are in desperate need of Islam to remedy this. I recently had a conversation with a strict black Christian women, and told her that the Polygamy aspect of Islam will heal a lot of ills in the black family, because black men rather then having random sex, and becoming baby daddies with no responsibilities, they would marry, be fathers, and maintainers of women, I was surprise to hear her agree.

    Perhaps the biggest loser, is the more educated and financially well off sisters, because they are less likely to put up with ignorance and the black males may feel like a subordinate rather than a husband, thereby reducing further the already slim pickings.

    Well that my two-cents anyway.

  45. Actionable,

    One of the most devastating consequences of habitual fornication is that it keeps the “men” in a state of arrested development. This is where the black male is. Why would a man get married and take on all the responsibilities (and often hassles) that go along with marriage, when he can get what he wants without taking on the duties of a real man? Why buy the cow when you can steal the milk for free?!?

    Fornication emotionally wrecks women and renders men childlike. In the long term, you end up with bitter hardened women with illegit kids and a bunch of males who are preoccupied with playing with their “ding-a-lings” and “pimpin’ things.”

    On the whole, African-Americans are through. You have a MASSIVE underclass whose pathological behaviors have become increasingly mainstreamed in black society (just consider the subject matter of an “Ebony” magazine today and that of 25 years ago). The problem isn’t merely the breakdown of the black family, it is the disintegration of almost all notions of morality in black America. It’s one thing to be doing bad, and recognizing you’re doing bad. It is another thing altogether when you don’t even know what bad is!!! I used to go on a black cultural site message board, and discuss these kinds of issues, and when i would lay it down that fornication and black sexual habits are at the root of black America’s problems (besides their general disobedience to Allah), they simply would not want to hear it. If black folks can’t deal with this relatively obvious and elementary matter, then HOW IN THE WORLD ARE THEY GOING TO COPE WHEN THE RULES ARE CHANGED WITH GLOBALISM?!?

    The fact of the matter is that NOBODY (but a fool) respects a people who lack self-control. Why was it that the “Nation of NOT Islam” used to get “props” back in the day? They had discipline, and even the white racists, as much as they hated Little Eli and the crew, still could not make the degrading and humiliating statements about them, as they could about the black masses.

    Regarding educated black women (the freshmen class at the better colleges had a 2:1 ratio of black females to black males), they are going to find themselves in a quandary. For one, they need to be critical of what constitutes “education.” For most people, going to college isn’t meant to produce intellectuals and thinkers. College is largely high priced job corp, wherein people often become (further) morally corrupted. Two thirds of the folks graduating (those that do graduate) could learn what they learn in no more than two years.

    For AA Muslim women, they too, need to understand that college is not a benign place. It is part of an indoctrination process, wherein it is very difficult to avoid getting contaminated by various deviant/anti-Islamic forms of feminism/social engineering. Often these indoctrination centers inculcate ideas that are anti-family and anti-traditional. And too often Muslim women naively adopt some of these ideologies failing to recognize the agenda that is behind them.

    Ultimately, it is upon the black men (Muslim) to learn the Religion correctly, practice what they learn with sincerity, and set a standard for the other people in the society and help all of us navigate through this morass that is America. Everyone loves a winner, and when black men start acting like winners, they will be respected by others, and most importantly, their deeds will be accepted by the Creator.

  46. Swarthmore:
    I agree with a lot of what you have to say, but…

    I find it interesting, college eduction is toxic for Black Muslim women, but not so for the daughters of immigrants? I know hundreds of Muslim women from Arab and South Asian backgrounds who have went to college, even discovered their Islam on college campuses from MSA activities. Many of them engaged by their junior year, but most were married shortly after their senior year. Almost all of them are married off. They don’t have anti-family stances. In fact, most of these women work in Islam schools as educators and teachers and volunteer in community centers. They are not about to put career first. I just want to know what evidence do you have for the argument that college education has a negative impact on family life.

    I know many African American women who have college degrees, they do step up and hold it down for their families and provide better lives for their children when their less than stable spouses bounce out.

  47. Aziza,

    I appreciate your question. Let it be said that i am obviously making generalizations about cultures, and i am not talking any specific individuals. Also, in offering this critique of black women, that doesn’t mean that i don’t have one for black men. Lastly, i am not discussing the CAUSES for these problems, but the consequences. People need to anticipate where this thing is going.

    The degreed immigrant Muslim woman is coming from a traditional background, wherein it is assumed that she will marry a man who will be the head of the household. Also, as you pointed out, her family assists he in getting married–i.e., her family situation is relatively stable.

    Now juxtapose that with the African-American Muslimah. In many cases, her identity is still entwined with the black kaafir culture. That is a culture of immorality and social pathologies–that are taken as the norm AND DEFENDED (as opposed to the Muslim culture wherein folks do jacked up stuff, but they have at least some notion of right and wrong). Also the motivation for education is different for immigrant women and AA women. You summed it up in saying: “…when their less than stable spouses bounce.” That is the assumption of many AA Muslimahs (and it is not unfounded)–is that their marriages will not last, because their men are irresponsible. Immigrant women get educated to enhance the family’s dunya lifestyle and to grant the woman, who is so inclined, some sort of intellectual fulfillment. Black women get “educations” as a survival mechanism.

    A couple of other points need to be made. As i’ve said, much of what goes on in the colleges/universities is little more than brain washing, social conditioning/engineering, and training folks to fit in seamlessly with the growing global consumer culture–which at its core is the antithesis of what Islam stands for (and this is what this “War on Terror” is ultimately all about). It’s not about “education,” as Muslims have traditionally thought of education. It’s about indoctrination–into a materialistic paradigm.

    Comparatively few immigrant Muslims study social sciences. They tend to do the medical/engineering/IT thing–in order to get jobs. And there is little in the American social sciences that the average immigrant Muslim could relate to. On the other hand, AA women often “find their voice” in the books of lesbian writers, such as, bell hooks, Alice, Walker, or Angela Davis. These writers (and often lesbian professors) are going to have a significant influence on a young black Muslimah–especially, when she has little in the way of training in the traditional Islamic Sciences to counter such ideologies.

    Please hear me out, i am not saying that AA Muslimahs getting degreed is in itself a bad choice. But it fails to address the issue at hand: why would she, for example, marry a “less than stable partner?” This would indicate that in spite of her “education,” she is not getting trained to recognize good character and what makes a man a good husband. Furthermore, the real problem does not get addressed: why are there sooooooo many “less than stable black males” out there? Also, given the relatively dominant position that black females have in black America (and will increasingly gain given the current educational trends), will it not be a conflict of interests for her to attempt to empower the black male (someone whom sees in less than favorable light)? As she has learned in college at the feet of her lesbian instructors, the black man is her opponent, and he needs to be kept in his place (and the powers-that-be instigate and encourage this attitude). So is it not clear that the university system is about setting a “Clash of Genders” between black men and women?

    As i said, ultimately, it behooves black males to get themselves together. Unlike in the past, black men were groping n darkness without a clear system to solve their problems. Praise Allah, that has changed, for traditional Islamic knowledge and spirituality is now available. All folks (of whatever ethnicity) need to do is seek it and ask the right questions regarding who is who and what is what, and work on being obedient to the ONE Who created us all.

  48. I could not agree more with your diagnosis, “the disintegration of almost all notions of morality in black America.”

    However, I was more getting at the treatment. If the rectification can be administered at the most basic group structure we have, namely the family, it would be far better and more effective as a whole rather than, one individual after a life-time of habitual promiscuous activities, suddenly becomes enlightened about his dysfunction and then tries to rectify his state and endeavors to reach an ideal that he has never known. Attempting to gain discipline at that stage is a truly monumental task, in which there will probably be many a relapse. This is seen in not only the undercover criminal activities of the NOI but the moral crimes as well as best illustrated by the liar Elijah Muhammad and his illegitimate children.

    However, if a child is born, nurtured, and taught in these principles as well as seeing it actualized in the behaviors of his father and his mother, rather than an mere ideal it is status quo and the basis in which he judges. That’s not to say he would be completely free of indiscretions, but he will feel the heavy weight of such discretion on his psyche, and far more motivated to rectify his condition to its former state and the most important thing, teach his children and give him the moral compass as well.

    In regards to your diagnosis of colleges and un-Islamic indoctrination, I agree as well. However, your statement “wherein people often become (further) morally corrupted”
    I think most black men and women and Muslims especially take college for what it is a systematic indoctrination in contemporary western thought and pseudo-sciences, however we learn it, get a degree essentially for employment opportunities. Yea we learn it but we are no believers in it. I think the problem is more of black women getting an over-inflated sense of self and accomplishment combined that with their under-achieving, undisciplined, unworthy male counterparts, it further bolster their sense of grandeur. To the women without deen they began measuring men according to their educational and financial accomplishments. The become more susceptible to white men or messing with a less comparable black male on the low but will never bring him home to Mama. To the women with deen, they couple the worldly accomplishment with sincerity of application of the Deen, but either way only a few may measure up, so in their mind they have to SETTLE. Either way, they are the most likely to be lonely.

    Sis Margi,

    Of the immigrant Muslim women you mentioned, have you ever questioned them about how their husbands feel about this. I would imagine that an immigrant husband, especially with the back-home perspective and family pressure feels apprehensive about their wife imitating a contemporary western woman. I’m sure there is a tug or war, especially about the kids.

  49. (I should really be enjoying my vacation, as opposed to commenting on blogs. Sigh…)
    Yes, I do talk to my friends about their marital lives. And many of these brothers really wanted a woman who had some accomplishments outside of the home. When their children reach school age, many of my friends do amazing work in the community. Their husbands have no problem that they go on to be teachers in Islamic schools and work in Islamic charities. Some women start businesses, providing important services to other sisters like health care, holistic health advice, hair care, modest clothing design, catering, hijabs, child care, midwifery, etc. My friend’s mother, Allah yarhumha left a legacy by helping build a major Islamic school in our area.

    The brothers who are inclined to find wives from the old world who will cook and clean and take care of kids do so. People go for what’s suitable to them. That is, until the dominant guy culture in the masjid starts circulating certain ideas of what model of a woman will work for everyone. Then new trends develop, kind of like how people talk about maids in Kuwait. This year, Ethiopian maids are in. They are great, yadda yadda. A few years ago, Filipino. This year, Moroccan women, next year Malaysian, etc.

    As for stable immigrant Muslim families. Do you know what the divorce rate is in Egypt??? 40%, how’s that for stable families. Also, what does that say about gigantic dowries? Not much. What is the divorce rate of Muslims in America? It is rising. One of the major differences is that Black women can’t depend on their families to support them.

    I find it sad that you think that going to college makes us women have an over inflated sense of self or sense of grandeur. I know for me, I was a non-traditional student and went back to get my bachelors at 27. I wonder where does that come from. That is not my experience, nor does it reflect the many women I know.

    Divorce is becoming easier in the modern world. But it is really easy for Black American Muslims. Why face the challenges of marriage? They don’t have the same social censure as immigrants have when they get a divorce. People will treat them relatively the same, their business ties are disrupted, nor are complex social networks. Instead, brothers shake off their wives like its nobody’s business. That’s the case even if she is a complete dependent and lived as an obedient subordinate wife.

    Black Muslim men know they have either their mothers or dozens of desperate women who will take care of them. Why grow up? It leads to an extended adolescence for many. The real men then stand out so much that this causes them fitnah. Women come at them in all sorts of directions. It is a sad cycle.

    I personally don’t think that anyone should settle. But the choices for Black American Muslim women are limited in the Muslim world because it is rife with discrimination.

  50. Actionable,

    I am glad that we agree on most of the points mentioned above. I was going to get around to the pride that many degreed black women have. I think that covers both classes of women in college: those who are in college merely to get job certification, as well as, black female intellectuals. I also agree that black males and females in college know that college is very much an indoctrination process and tend to be critical of matters of race, ethnicity, and class. And in many ways, the college critique of these matters does not inherently conflict with the Religion. (Although the ultimate objective this deconstructionalism is not to unite people but to balkanize people and fragment them into identity politics.)

    However, there is the matter of gender that is also put into the mix. Probably outside of Malcolm X, there is probably very little that a black man, and Muslim, in particular, is going to read in college that is really going to speak to his experiences. Nonetheless, there are numerous novels and other writings that intended to stir up black feminist sentiments in the women. To my knowledge there is not a single black “masculinist” writer on the campuses–and if there were, i am sure he’d be devoured alive by the (so-called) PC Police.

    The ultimate danger in campus feminism is that it ultimately is an attack on the very institutions of the Religion. That’s not to say that Muslim men don’t have a long way to go in regards to their treatment of their Sisters, but everyone should be clear that feminism is not being taught to women in the villages of Iraq and Afghanistan (or on campus of Mount Holyoke, Bryn Mawr, or Vassar) out of a love for Muslim women, but it is part and parcel of an attack against the Religion itself. And sadly you will find such indoctrinated women with Muslim names attacking Islam because Islam doesn’t match the feminist template their Western overlords have given them. In summary, we need to be VERY CRITICAL of this Western educational system and not take anything from it for granted.

  51. Swath Moore,

    The analysis, brother, is deep and penetrating and perhaps the most articulate post I have read on Umar Lee’s blog.
    Connection between the globalised imperatives and modern institutions of education appears precise.

    Education plays only a fragment of the time spent in those institutions and a thoughtful person senses quickly that they concern the transference of values more directed to a re-orientation of character, identity, cultural and religious values.

    They are uneasy places to be in. And they constitute a ‘danger’ to communities and individuals which do not have the counterbalances of alternative communal and civic structures.

    Consumer ethos is imbibed by many Afro-Caribbean women here in Uk and many of them leave University with degrees in social sciences and/or Humanities. But, in a way, this opting for ‘consumerism’, is not so much a failure of those women on a personal level.

    It is a confused protest against the primarly feminist-Euro-centric-orientated ideology they are fed in the educational institutions.

    It is a pathologie but one which tries to avoid the greater pathology of hating black men or any man, and embracing a current Euro-centric dynamic which has no place for their communal identities.

    The subjects themselves do not liberate or free let alone enlighten. They compound confusion over issues of self, of religion, of direction. They lead to a very disconcerting world view.

    I appreciate your diagnosis and agree with your ‘cure’.

  52. Swarth Moor,

    We have the dissected the ills of the black man and the black women, namely the marginalization of the male and the propping up of the women.

    But what are the implications of this for us western Muslims, I mean we have to find a balance. To those of us with young daughters we want to fully educate them in the principles and application of the Deen, no question. However, we also want to educate them about the ills of the collegian life, its underlying agenda but we also want them to have some educational accomplishments as well right? Me personally, I’m not with the whole Morocco is the solution crowd, or better yet, seeking a women to basically be a day laborer (nights as well) to over inflate my sense of control, but at the same time avoid our daughters from that whole Oprah-syndrome, especially as a Wali when you may find that the potential suitors are lame and not comparable, to not only what she expects but not even to what the Wali expects.

    I think the only answer may be DUAS.

  53. Jami,

    Here is about the best and most germane quote i have ever heard about today’s education system:

    “The schools no longer produce men [with the pretense] of virtue; they do not even make that claim–because they do not know what virtue is. All they can claim is to produce people who are not socially destabilizing. But frequently they fail at that.”

    Honestly, what is the purpose of an “education,” if it does not make you a better human being–but only makes you more marketable (an arguably a bit more informed marketable entity–albeit, not necessarily better person as a result)? That is the state of the educational system. For the most part, it is little more than high end high cost Job Corps. For the “intellectuals,” they are almost inevitably swept away by the legacy of the neo-communist/PC culture that prevails in the humanities. We gotta see it for what it is and give an Islamic perspective on things

  54. Philly Salafi,
    Perhaps what you mean by your statement ‘show me your proof’ is: please provide a reference for the statement of Tawoos so that we may ascertain it’s authenticity. I am curious as well…

  55. Swath Moor,

    Good quote.

    A Muslim academic here, from the privilige end of things (he lectures at Cambridge and in Islamic studies ) but with an insight gained from people who had choice to select their education, has observed how modern ‘state’ education here in the UK has gone in for substitute ‘Parenting’.

    It is a wise but accurate statement, perhaps complementing the quote you provided. Further, it is doubtful if a system caught up in parenting (i.e,. read preventing boys from crime) is able to provide values about masculininty (and the PC turn means in fact ‘Masculinity’ is feared if not despised).

    I went to University for a ‘job’. I came from a background of struggle and was doing quite well reading about Fannon and the self taught (Malcolm, George Jackson et al) before arriving in the ‘institutions’. But interpretations are subversive and it is interesting that Fannon books are taught now as primarily as Post-Modernist Feminist texts.

    Yes. We need an Islamic perspective and this may eventually mean from (dynamic) Islamic institutions, at least as guide to the ‘secular’ encounters.

  56. Actionable/Jami,

    I’ve been involved in education for quite a while. It wasn’t something i had planned on, but praise Allah, circumstances forced me to. Over the years, i sensed something was deeply awry with the standard government engineered curricula that i was teaching from (in an Islamic school that was true to traditional Islamic learning but lacking in a relevant academic curriculum).

    That led me on a sort of journey trying to fix. With that said, let me say when we look into teaching/training our youth, we see that folks generally fall into three categories (i am not talking about the criminally inclined or those with learning/emotional issues). We have lay people, who are not academically inclined, and truly have no desire or inclination to go to college. This is not an inherent fault on their part. Spending years with one’s nose in books simply is not for everyone.

    People like such–males in particular–need to have the type of job training necessary to enable to earn money (didn’t say anything about “finding a ‘job'”), so they can afford to GET MARRIED. Such young men need to be trained with technical/trade skills which will be relevant in a global economy. For the Sisters, what needs to be done (for all of them) is to have a basic academic education (so they can impart it to their children). Also, we could learn A LOT from the old Nation of NOT Islam. They used to have what was called Muslim Girl Training, wherein, the females learned various skills that would make them good wives, such as, cooking (holisitic/healthy meals), cleaning, sewing, and other domestic skills. They also learned how to take care of their husbands and behave in the appropriate way with their husbands (this isn’t only for the lay folk, but Sisters of all classes).

    The second class could be your “professional/academic class.” Such people will need to be prepared for the onslaught they are going to face in the colleges. From a Religious perspective, one can critique the academic system. This strengthens and protects the Iman of young people. This is particularly important for the college-bound female students, for we know that they are a primary target of the folks doing the social engineering.

    Beyond the doctors and engineers, we need an American Muslim intelligentsia. I am not talking about those academics who currently dominate the university systems, that is, Muslims who are usually more influenced by Orientalists than they are by teachers of traditional classical Religious sciences. More often that this, this current class fits the role of the “Uncle Tom” negroes and are irrelevant to the needs of the Ummah.

    The third (and highest) class are those who be like our Religious scholars–or at least Religious references. Those students who have the best of character and the intellectual capacity to memorize and process the vast material required for Islamic scholarship, should be encouraged to do so. Ship them out so they can be immersed in classical Islamic scholarship. Such students will later act as reservoirs of knowledge, and those in Academia/political-social realm will be able to refer to these “scholars” for some of the more abstruse cases they may encounter.


  57. Let me be clear here that when i talk about “lay students,” i am not talking about dumbing down the students. In the curriculum i have been working on, it would be required (in the Religious Studies program) to:

    Memorize a very short text of `Aqidah, as well as, later on a longer text (e.g., the text of At-Tahawiyy)

    Memorize a basic book on Fard `Ayn (Personally Mandatory) Knowledge (like, Al-Maqaasid of An-Nawawiyy)

    A detailed study of the explanation of a classical text of Islamic doctrine, like that of At-Tahawiyy or An-Nasafiyy.

    A study of a introductory book on Islamic Fiqh.

    Along with an introductory study of Hadith Science and a good understanding of Islamic history.

    In the right environment, there is no reason why the lay student cannot complete this material by the time he/she finishes 9th-10th grade (approximately 16 years of age).

    Academically, what can be done is eliminate all the fluff that is in the “day care centers.” Essentially, a young person needs to have:

    1. Good vocabulary/reading skills (which can be gained by reading GOOD English–and not public school pablum–including plenty of traditional English verse). Fill the students up with quality English–have them memorize literary quotes of wisdom and similarly with verse. In essence, you can burn any reading books that were published before 1930. Give the kids the old school books, for the language therein is faaaaaar superior.

    2. Good reasoning skills. When the students reach about 11 or so, start giving them plenty of logic puzzles, and then teach logic as a formal course in 7th grade BEFORE (or along with) algebra and (then) geometry (which would be a study of Euclid and its proofs).

    3. Good self-expression skills. In 9th and 10th grade, they can study Rhetoric (English “Balaghah”)–again as a formal study, and not the kind of hit or miss method used today in “English Composition.” By the time the students have finished 10th grade, they will be better than most college grads nowadays. For the lay students, they can concentrate their last year of study in an area where they can earn money. (A book that would be useful for ALL the students to read (with supervision) would be “Rich Dad, Poor Dad.”)

    The above would be the least required–and it is within the ability of an average young person, when given the proper course of study, motivation, and environment. That is a summary of the program i have put together, and i don’t have the time to talk about various languages that should be learned–Arabic (of course), Spanish, French, Latin, and at least an introduction to Chinese. Among other things, being multi-lingual is going to be a critical survival skill in this era of growing globalism.

  58. Mr. Swarth Moor

    I am so sick and tired of you and other people trying to analyze the African-American community and what we need. You all praise Malcolm X, a wonderful man and leader but fail to credit his teacher the Hon. Elijah Muhammad. If you knew anything about Imam Mohammed you would KNOW that he is anything but an apologist.

    You have no idea of whom you speak. This man’s brilliance illuminated the world by teaching pure Al-Islam, so pure in fact that most so-called Muslims don’t recognize it. Were it not for Imam Mohammed all of us would be in detainment camps for following some crazy “jihadist” to our demise. Imam Mohammed established Al-Islam in the US not only for African-Americans but also for all Muslims.

    Who are you to say we African-Americans have not produced any leaders since Malcolm X. That is truly insulting.

  59. Swath Moor,

    Suggestive reading, interesting curricula, and offering a path foward.

    The time wasting on pre-30s lit, seems essential, but it raises another thought. Few in the Classical periods (wheather Greco-Roman or in the Vedic or major Oral Culturesof the World) read much.

    They focussed on a few useful texts, and the mind was set to work in retaining them and passing their truth(s) on to students and later generations.

    Hadith tradition functioned on same level; and its known that Ahmad Hanbal (alaihi salam), did not believe a man should give fataawa until he had remembered at least 500, 000 ahadith. A tradition that still has Hafiz as a word is has not ended the possibilities of this tradition.

    A mind trained along these lines works incredibly fast and must be described as not only as retentive but also profound. Compare the waste, the rubbish, the trash cooked up to be remembered in mainstream education.

    Clearly, it is failure and its manipulative aspect is indicated by the simple fact that revision is required to answer three questions at the end of the yearly process. Most of it forgotten after a year out of school or University.

    Thereby, again, testifying to its shallowness and time-wasting.

    I think it was a Azhari Shaikh who used say once graduating he read nothing except the Qur’an. He graduated from the Al Azhar in 1944.

    His statement was meant both a boast and a form of Islamic Rhetoric.
    But, sincerly, I am beginning to understand what the brother was getting at.

    Your point on the Nation …. and the women teaching is more relevant now than before. Women under 30 struggle with the basics of home life which would have come natural to a generation before. Many can’t cook or won’t cook. It is regarded as sophisticated to confess inadequacy in the ‘Home’.

    Since this essential quality is central when people live together and married, it follows it has a educative force of major significance among Muslim women in the West. I might even place it above ‘academic’ education.

    Things are that serious, broth; and in any case, it would fit logically into the views I have expressed above.

  60. personally I dont think arab women are pretty at all I think black indian,and spanish are the most beautiful women in the world.I knew an arab women who hated black women because a black woman took her man!

  61. @Ashley,

    Good Lord Boyet, my beauty, though but mean,
    Needs not the painted flourish of your praise:
    Beauty is bought by judgement of the eye,
    Not utter’d by base sale of chapmen’s tongues

    Shakespeare, in Love’s Labours Lost, 1588.

  62. “we could teach them how to keep the family unit stronger, how to prosper in business, how to succeed in education” – An Arab I believe put this up above….
    The West and Arabs have worked for centuries to ‘dehumanise’ blacks and disseminate the family infastructure that worked well to produce blacks that were education, law abiding citizens.

  63. Racism is very seriouse thing in the arab world , frankly speaking I am sick to death of it ! , I wish people would just go to the higher self and make themselves better then this .

  64. Shariq, It is not for you to call Allah’s wrath against a muslim or even a fellow human if you have any Knowledge of what Allah’s wrath means you would reply him with the words may Allah forgive you for your Ignorance…. It is not right to call the wrath of Allah on anybody, what If Allah take you yourself to book and saves your sins for a destined day as you have requested for him or do you think you are Pious? Anwer me! are you thinking you pious? verily the best sign of piety is forgiveness for the sake of Allah. Verily the most pious person is not him who does sallah the most or read quran the most or him who they call sheik or eemam, but him who is best to his neighbours his wife, children, the umma, the christians to everybody he is the real Gem and there is a full reward for every action. So be kind beware of shaitan when he inspires the heart. May Allah forgive you.

  65. Racism is new to Islam, as Arabs have mixed with Africans for centuries, and Africans owned Arab slaves. ( Read Ibn Khaldun ) It is only with the fall of the Ottoman empire that ugly nationalist ideas began to pervade some Muslim cultures.

  66. Culture and Islam are two DIFFERENT things. Although they are linked, they are not one in the same. I admit some Arab cultures do view beauty differently with respect to color of skin, as do other non-Arab cultures. However, I don’t understand how you can generalize a whole religion based on some cultural situations. It is ignorant as it is wrong to say Islam promotes racism and Arabs are racist. It pisses me of. How can people be so close minded. And as for Umar-“There is no hiding that Arabs are more racist than any other society in the world.” Is it me or does that sound a bit stereotypical. It saddens of how hypothetical people can be

  67. In the interest of inquiry and intellectual blossom, the University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign (herein referred to as UIUC) has arranged a speech titled “Defending the Prophet: Understanding Muslim Reactions to the Danish Cartoon Controversy”. Here is the program outline:
    In 2005-06 cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad led to protests by Muslims worldwide. The controversy became local when the Daily Illini published several of the cartoons. Professor Rosen will discuss why Muslims feel so intensely that they must protect the Prophet, and why the Prophet, seen not just as a messenger, war leader, and arbiter, but also in a master-disciple relationship proves the rule of necessary deference by being the most exceptional social tie of all.”

    Let’s go through the outline presented above. In the interest of free inquiry. Which explains why there’s another seminar around the same time titled “Defending Principles of the Enlightenment: Understanding The Motives for Publishing Offensive Things Simply Because I Can, BITCH”. Oh wait.

    1. “In 2005-06 cartoons depicting the Prophet Muhammad led to protests by Muslims worldwide.” I don’t recall one major protest in the US. Not even in Dearborn, Michigan. Muslims in western China did not protest either. I can’t imagine any of the two camps approving of the cartoons in and of themselves, but they didn’t protest. Worldwide? I don’t think so. Moving on.
    2. “The controversy became local when the Daily Illini published several of the cartoons” And it ended with the author of those cartoons being dismissed from the Daili Illini (DI), teaching the rest of the school papers and the student body in general a very valuable lesson: that UIUC deserves not a penny of donations from it’s alumni until it sufficiently repents for circumventing the 1st amendment. But in all fairness, “UIUC” is more students than anyone else. A few people cared when this cartoon shit hit the fan in the Daily Illini. However, there were major uproars throughout campus when the Chief, a Native-American-stereotype school mascot was removed due to… well, you know. It was offensive. While of the same vein as the DI firings, I think it is fair to say that, simply speaking, the Chief and all that surrounds him is the most irrelevant bullshit non-issue since Bush ran on “moral values” in 2004. Because if anything affects my personal morality, it is the public face of some asshole sitting in D.C. But I digress. Point being, there was a bigger protest over the Chief issue than over the Cartoon issue. Lesson number two: in UIUC, students get their priorities straight.
    3. “Professor Rosen will discuss why Muslims feel so intensely that they must protect the Prophet” Two points of interest here. One, Muslims feel that they must protect the MEMORY of the prophet, jackass. Your prophet has been dead. Though I wouldn’t put it beyond the academia and the Muslim community to insist to the contrary. Secondly, let’s ask Muslims themselves why. After all, if in doubt, go to the source. Seeing as how Rosen is not a Muslim (so I’m assuming), taking his word is like taking Robert Spencer’s word on Islam. And the message out there is that you can’t because he’s not a Muslim, and therefore wouldn’t know the “proper” interpretation. Basically, he’s not in the “in-club” and therefore doesn’t know what he’s talking about. Doctorate in Islamic Studies non-withstanding. I strongly doubt that the same objection of an “outsider” judging Islam and it’s constituents will surface with this seminar. Why? Well because it will all but certainly be friendly and “understanding” of Islam. Consistency is the name of the game in this shindig, huh.
    Moving on to why Muslims feel that shooting a nun in Somalia, attacking embassies in Jordan, and burning churches (more than usual) in “Palestine” is okay.
    Just kidding. It is not worth my time to even present the arguments of Muslims in light of the fact that after countless bombings, beheadings of infidels, unanimous anti-semitism, hatred, and consideration of religiosity as a virtue… Cartoons made the list. Just as Fitna made the list. Salman Rushdie made the list. Actual crimes of Muslims in the name of Islam did not make the list. Well, maybe I’m mistaken. I mean, the Council of American-Islamic Relations took time out from it’s soft-jihad and did put out a condemnation of the 9.11 attacks. In 2004.
    4. “and why the Prophet, seen not just as a messenger, war leader”. WAR LEADER? You gotta be shitting me. See, I thought that “the prophet” was a peaceful man. An arab jesus, of sorts. Well whatever the case, I am aware of the Islamic commandment to follow the Sunnah – the quest to imitate the prophet as much as possible. Combined with his lifelong illiteracy, I’d say that most of the Muslim Ummah has succeeded in that respect since war and illiteracy are in fact the defining characteristic of any region where Islam reigns supreme. A singular anti-accomplishment, unmatched by even the Communist pits of Russia and China. On a totally unrelated note, let’s give Islam the same respect that we give other faiths. After all, it’s a religion. Who says? Well Muslims do. There’s god and rituals in there. It must be a religion. Which, for some unknown reason, MUST by default, be peaceful and lead to a spiritual (and perhaps material) progression in the regions where it has influence. For instance, look at any Islamic country. Any. Or look up Islamberg, NY for an example of how Islam does the world a world of good.
    The rest of the outline is pandering to the claim that Mohammed and the Ummah’s relationship to it is somehow justified. And when you obey a war-leader, you are, by necessity, a soldier, and therefore, fair game.
    Muslims have got to where they are (shit) mainly by intimidation. Non-muslim apologists have given in to that intimidation. When confronted with civility and reason and playing by the rules of discourse, they are ran over by the Overmind of Hurt Feelings, which manifests itself in legal actions that serve to set a precedent for shredding the Constitution. But hey, the Constitution is man-made. The Quran is god-made. Therefore, the latter has something over the former. And I challenge you to find out how many “moderate Muslims” disagree.
    I wonder, what if the Islamic threats to non-muslims were matched not only by harsh actions towards Muslims, but also to those who cater to the Islamic juggernaut of bullshit. Is it civil disobedience to forego civility in order to protect civilization? Perhaps NetworkSolutions will find out. Perhaps your local mosque should. Perhaps a crusade of sorts isn’t such a bad idea. Perhaps violence can be justified.
    Ask Muslims. They would know better than most since their Dear Leader is, in fact, a warrior. And nobody cries “injustice!” when a warrior or his comrades-in-arms are killed in battle.

  68. Assalamu Alaikum,

    No doubt that there is Racism in the Arab world and that many of these Arabs want white women as has been expressed to me. Thing is a brother who I love for the sake of Allah found it strange when I said I want a dark wife and others were a bit shocked at that also. Strange enough I got who I wanted Alhamdu Lillah.
    I am from the West Indies and fortunately Blacks in the West Indies have a certain image of themselves. The largest black nationalist movement in the world which was the UNIA came from Marcus Garvey. A lot of West Indians were involved in the Black Power movements in the states in the 1970s. So when I went to Saudi Arabia and people made one racist remark they got responses which they were not able to reply to. I remember a brother asked me why Africans and anyone else would take these comments and not West Indians or who grew up among West Indians. I put my fist in the air and said “Because we grew up like this”. So not taking it in Trinidad and going to a largely White ‘prestiege’ school means that there was no way I was taking it in Saudi Arabia.
    However, in Saudi Arabia, although there is Racism, many Africans are in top positions and the divide between rich and poor is not based upon race. And I never saw from Saudis the kind of malice I have witnessed from East Indians who in my opinion are probobly more racist than Arabs themselves. In fact someone told my wife that she should drink magnesia when having our child so he/she would come out with light skin! And trust me there is an extremely big racial divide between blacks and East Indians except in the case of the Salafis.
    In any case, the crocs of the matter is that those who have a natural sun-tan should never see themselves inferior to others. Black is also beauty and is the creation os Allah. It is not the result of the Hemetic curse which many Bible Thumpers refuse to narrate to their congregations. Rather dark skin is a sign from Allah for those who reflect.

    Assalamu Alaikum

  69. The sad thing is this “black is ugly” crap is common in virtually all non African peoples. May they be Europeans, Arabs, Jews, Chinese and Japanese, East Indians and Pakistanis, Malays everybody. Even South Indians who look much darker than many African Americans believe black=ugly, inferior, stupid and white/fair=beautiful, competent, superior. Many have had these opinions before European rule. Sad. Truly Sad.

  70. As Salaam Alaykum

    I’ve been living in Saudi for about 6 years. I noticed some racism amongst the Saudis but I learned that it was mostly due to their own low self esteem mainly because they idolize the Europeans and Americans. In another observation, I’ve learned that the more educated and religious Saudis tend to avoid racism. Also, those who have traveled and spent more time studying abroad in Western countries also seemed to be more open mined and less racist. I’ve also learned that Saudis tend to be more receptive to those who speak Arabic and know the Arab culture–regardless of race differences. Also, please keep in mind many of the Saudis–particulary the Royal families- have been corrupted by the oil wealth they receive, which makes them think they r more superior than the average Saudi. Finally, keep in mind that slavery was only abolished in the 1960s or 70s. Regardless of some of the backward mindedness which some exhibit, do not allow this ignorance to forget about the 2 Holy Harams where one receive numerous blessings and is a place for all worshippers to come togethers to worship ALLAH regardless of ones natioanlity or color.

  71. Salam aleikum to the Muslims.
    You all know what? I gotta to admit, I like what SwarthMoor has been saying, he has been quite objective in his writings and has been realistic, pointing the finger at all where it is due and giving credit where it is due. Props to you, bro.
    “This problem is further compounded when Arabs come to the States and see the conditions of neighborhoods with black majorities. Many AA Muslims have this idealism that people will respect them and honor them, while failing to take into consideration human nature. Everyone loves a winner, and the condition of black Africa/black America don’t reflect a culture of winners. (Now the reasons WHY black folks are in their condition altogether, but most people don’t care about the “whys” of things–they care about what they can see.)” This is exactly the problem here. My father, still a kafir, asked me why I had issues with Arabs and Desi Muslims, even though he has issues with Arabs and Desis, regardless of religion, with whom he works as a physician. I told him it was because when they came to this country, they carried their pagan, white supremacist notions with them, which they had before Islam or colonization, and that if they were Muslim they were not supposed to be racist, especially against other victims of racial oppression! If they’re Muslim, I do not care why they prefer the pillagers and plunderers (Romans) to the victims. My dad said that it’s only human nature, no one wants to be oppressed. But the fact we as Muslims are supposed to view things through a moral lens, not colored with anything except tawheed and fear of Allah. We are not to address the issues of oppression of anyone, be it racial or otherwise, by selling out to the oppressors or even those who benefit from the oppression. We are supposed to confront it and condemn it, period! Which is what we’re doing in this blog right now. We’re right for being angry with Arabs and Desis who adopt racism for themselves, even if it is less than WARaciam, because they act like they’re the best of Muslims. Come on! Haven’t we all seen Arabs who act as if Allah Himself is an Arab with a thobe and a gutrah?! (I seek refuge from ever acting like this myself or ascribing human limits to Allah Almighty) Muslims who fail to confront it should at least keep quiet and admit to themselves that they are neglecting something of this religion in terms of enjoining the right and forbidding the wrong! Granted, none of us want to be losers and SwarthMoor is right like my dad was about human nature. But that is what weapons are for, self-defense from oppression!
    SwarthMoor, I like what you said, and I will be saying your words in a recorded speech soon. Take it as the highest of compliments. I love you for Allah’s sake. Salam aleikum.

  72. For those of you who are claiming that Tawoos and ibn Battootah were racists, I have not seen any proofs and even if so, who are they to us really, with all due respect of course….?

    As we are ordered to follow the messenger SAW of Allaah only anyway! He is the best of men! Yes! Even the sahabas/tabi;een were not quite perfect they are still our muslim brothers and I ask Allaah to expand their graves and have mercy on them while He guide us who are living and talking about the dead as if we are never going to be brought to account for our ignorant statements!

    Subhaan Allaah! Not everyone is a racist and if they are, that is their problem though we ask Allaah to guide them and we seek refuge in Him!

    This is not our goal in life…to find out who is racist and who is not…if you can rid al munkar, well maasha Allaah do it the right way! where is the mar;oof though??? subhaan Allaah!!!!!

  73. C’mon man! stop apologizing for the faults of a significant amount of Arabs. I’ve experienced personally this racism coming from Arabs in Saudi Arabia and Egypt.

    @ swarthmoor
    Stop sugar coating racism, because their is no such thing as “white american racism” and “arab racism”, nobody isn’t fooled by this apologetic response. RACISM is RACISM no matter how deep the premise seems to be. Their are racists among all ethnic groups. and when you engage in racism you are following the foot steps of shaytan ya’udhubillah.

  74. Some Dark skin people like light skin people or slightly lighter than them. Some light skin people like dark skin people, some feel physically attracted to people not to dark or too light skin. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and there is nothing wrong with that. Most people I know are are attracted to people who have good adab (etiquette, courtesy).

  75. What is “Race”?

    Race is a socio-linguistic construct with no scientific legitimacy. Genetically, it is difficult to separate people by skin colour or other physical characteristics as we all come originally from Africa, and our ancestors diffuses across the planet following certain migratory routes … but we are all so genetically mixed with other species as well as within our own species, that “race” is absurd from a biological-scientific perspective.

    that said, ethnocentricism is real and universal. when we talk about visible minorities, it is almost genetically encoded to favour like over non-like individuals … as in the evolution of social groupings ..

    but “race” as it is commonly (& mistakenly) known, has to include culture and socio-economic status when involved in societal discrimination …

    Africans make such socio-economic and cultural discriminations among clans & extended families living within various tribal and linguistic groups ..

    Sudanese, for example, are very colour conscious, and discriminate against my wife for her dark chocolate colour even though she is mixed with Spanish and Native American …

    We live as a mixed-race family within the Arab-Muslim world and face discrimination every day … such discrimination has deeply rooted pre-modern history among Semitic language groups — which defines Arabs who derive from a wide range of ethno-genetic mixtures …

  76. swarth moor …. brother, you are weaving wide on many issues, especially in labeling individuals or groups in a perjorative manner … as Malcolm once said, “one struggle, many fronts”

    Throughout history, Muslims have always made alliances with non-Muslims, many times even against other Muslims .. so try to find the mizan, the middle path and respect difference among ourselves … and AA Muslimas finding common cause with non-Muslim AA sisters is not a bad thing … let’s face it, we men, all men, are opportunists, no matter how much we do good, or deny our opportunism, which means male chauvinism is structurally embedded and biases our whole lives in relation to other men and toward women, this tragic propensity never was purged from Islam even though Prophet Mohammed, tried to clean up the community practices left over from Jahaliah, and subsequently, Muslim rulers and leaders of all kinds, were often laying down their own male biases when they made commentary of Islamic practices & beliefs about gender …

  77. Racism is not allowed in Islam.Islam is against racism and there is no racism in Islam . If at all it prevails anywhere that is the fault of people who does not know the basic principle of Islam and they are not the true followers of Islam but it is the fault of those people and they have to face the punishment of ALLAH for the wrong way of following.

  78. No Racism in Islam.

    “An Arab has no superiority over non Arabs and a white man has no superiority over a black man, nor a black man over a white man except by piety and good actions“
    – Prophet Muhammad(peace be upon him)

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