Sex and the Muslims Part 3: The Taboo

I think by now it has been well established that marriage and the problems that exist within them are probably one of the biggest taboos in the Muslim community.

I think that one of the problems with converts is that too many thought/think that humanity was/is haraam. This crossed over into marriage. Those couples that were willing to break the inhuman taboos behind closed doors were the couples that made it and have happy families.

Those that tried to live by the strict letter of the book were unable to withstand the extreme literalism and lack of being able to show emotion. It is not natural to live life according to literalism and have no interference from emotion at all and to behave as if you are a robot mimicking a set of phrases and rulings from far-away scholars unable to even change the conditions of the people in their own societies..

I am still trying to figure out why we felt the need to suppress all emotional influence by living lives of rigid emotional self-control. The only time we are to display emotion is when there is a protest or a fight in the masjid over who is “on it”. This is why, when a person with character or personality comes along it is so odd. A person that likes to do things and who is human and has feelings and is not always frontin’ for others is seen as odd.

As for marriage, I think that part of the reason that there is no real tradition of romance is because one does not have to compete for the affections of a woman. By this, I don’t necessarily mean with other men. By this I mean that if a woman is already betrothed to you, then why in the heck do I have to try to do things to gain her affection and love? Love is also often associated with fertility – i.e., the ability to expand the tribe. A woman that doesn’t provide children gets no ‘love’. A woman who has been “given “to you by her daddy is your property for life and like a car you buy, you may shine it and wax it and get the oil changed for the first few years but after that you just ride it till it breaks down with very little care.

The taboos of sex and relationships have created an unfortunate culture where it creates an over sensual reaction from people living in the Muslim World who are so sexually frustrated that they turn to, in the case of men, having sex with little boys of lesser tribes and class, man on man sex, lesbianism, and young Muslim couples engaging in anal and oral sex before marriage. Combine this with the fact that you also have a “sex tourism” industry to Lebanon, Morocco, Bahrain, Thailand and other places that is popular with many rich Muslims, gang rape in tribal regions, “honor” killings and you have the results of our taboos.

Then they bring it with them to the West when they think that each and every Western woman is a lose sexual fiend that they can have sex with at will with no problem. I knew a beauty supply owner who paid a girl $300 to feel on her butt. Another was jailed for trading hair gel for oral sex to a minor.

Some of these guys date non-Muslim women strictly for sexual purposes, then go home to marry a good girl from the village. Some of the gas station and beauty supply owners after leading a wild life, no doubt get frustrated with having their sexual urges constrained by the girl from the village who cant throw down in the bedroom like Keisha from East St. Louis or Maria from the South Bronx.

How do those who grew-up under such sexual repression in places where young girls are killed in cold blood by their brothers for alleged sexual crimes and old wenches sniff white sheets to smell vaginal blood behave when they come to America? Some go nuts and if they can they go clubbin and date, others cannot have no game and are reduced to sitting at home and jerking off to Baywatch reruns (or in the case of one guy I know busting a nut in public at the site of a woman), and others run to the masjid to get married to anyone as soon as possible before they get their papers and then go fetch one of their kin to get married with.

For us American brothers and sisters, who grew-up here in America interacting with the opposite sex our whole lives how do we erase all of this and then suddenly behave like we grew-up in rural Pakistan or the suburbs of Riyadh? How do we explain that within months of our shahadah, we suddenly stutter in front of women and begin talking to women like Michael Vick talks to his pets mixed in with a little paternalism? No wonder these same brothers that convert to Islam and marry women they are not attracted to become porn addicts whereas they never had that problem before.

Must we act like a woman is the cause of all sin? Is acting like that actually CAUSING us to become sexual reprobates???

Advertisements

89 thoughts on “Sex and the Muslims Part 3: The Taboo

  1. When I lived in Saudi I was 7 months pregnant when a man offered me 100 riyals to come to the back of the store with him.I was horrified but it opened my eyes to something that I never thought of before.
    That nasty irreligious people lived in Madeenah too(yea I know).

  2. You’re trying too hard to be over the top, Umar. This is tabloid style social “commentary.” You’re relying on “black and white” globo style stereotyping based on a faulty premise.
    If lack of romance and freedom is the problem, why are there so many perverts and degenerates in “free” societies? Sorry bud, but your thesis is deeply flawed and devoid of understanding of different cultural norms. Some people still hold onto the weird notion that 5 minutes at motel 6 isn’t romance.
    And MyopicVision, you should have had your husband punch that degenerate Saudi.

  3. Well done. Good blog and no, you haven’t gone over the top. I’m afraid the other DrM is using the old chestnut of “I know better, because I am”. As for cultural norms, is it a cultural norm to shoot one’s sister because you saw her talking to a man?

  4. I have to agree with Umar and “the real DocM”

    ***THIS STUFF IS NOT NORMAL***

    We’re talking about stuff done in the NAME OF RIGHTEOUSNESS. Yes, there are perverts and reprobates in the West, but very few will claim it in the NAME OF RIGHTEOUSNESS.

    There is no “honor” in killing young women for being SUSPECTED of fornication (while leaving the young men alone btw)

    In what kind of culture IN THE NAME OF RIGHTEOUSNESS do you have people waiting outside the door on “the night of entry”?

    What kind of culture do you have parents running down the street with bloody sheets?

    What about people who go to Hajj so that they can be squeezed against women by the crowd?

    These are PROBLEMS. It irks me when Muslims just write it off and say “well the West has this”

    We need to get off the anti-Western self righteousness and look at ourselves for a change

  5. This post is thought-provoking and I don’t think that your premise is off. There is nothing wrong with looking in the mirror at your community and at your own past.

    I remember as a young girl being terrified of messing up, or making a mistake, around the masjid. There was a restaurant on the bottom floor and one time I broke a glass. I was only five or six but moments later I was running down this Philly block terrified of being yelled at by one of the older brothers or sisters. Alhamdulilah, moments later a younger brother caught up to me and was like “lil sis, lil sis it’s okay”. Haha.

    The point is that I associated being Muslim with being Perfect all the time. You could never slip up in speech or action because someone would always be right there to correct you or make you feel inferior or that you were not a good/real Muslim.

    As an adult Muslim I do stick out because I love to smile, laugh and speak my mind when it’s appropriate. I get it from my mama. One person at my masjid asked my mom “Why do you smile so much?” like it was the worse thing in the world. Dude, it was jumuah, we just got up off the rug and we were surrounded by our brothers and sisters: Isn’t that worthy of a smile?

    The problem I see with some Muslims is this intense desire to control other Muslims through impolite, disgusting and sometimes violent means. This is especially true with the treatment that some sisters receive. There is often correction/judgement with no adab or common sense.

    The gender specific dictates within Islam were made to make women’s lives easier not more brutal. Instead sexist and limited minds latch on to these ideas as ways to limit women and demonize their bodies.

    I know its cliche but people need to worry about their own souls and deeds. Work on yourself!

    I really appreciate this post Umar because it shows that it is possible to work through these issues of unnecessary repression/oppression and still be a committed to our deen.

  6. My question is okay…there are Muslims with problems. I grew up in this country but I’ve been in Bangladesh and Indian culture well enough to know that there were gratuitious rape scenes in local cinema that men basically jerked off to in those countries. The idea that jerking off to rape is disturbing enough but my question is so what…what the hell does this have to with Islam? Like how are we going to stop perverts? Also I think I some of you cats are showing the goold old American impatience again. Good chunks of the immigrant Muslim community are not the cream of the crop of those cummunities. Many of them are conservative in their own cultural sense which does not necessarily mean they are “conservative” in the Islamic sense. These people will eventually pass and their children growing up here will become Americanised. Wait another 10-15 years and you’ll see.

  7. Bro Umar,

    You are again wrong in this post. You are falling into stereotypes.
    Just because one did not grow into the United States or the West does not mean that he can not show emotion or be romantic to his wife.
    You also assume wrongly that people who have not been promiscuous in their life are sexually frustated, which I disagree with.

    Love is NOT associated with fertility in the Muslim World. There is love and affection between muslim couples in the Muslim World.

    You go further and assume that muslim men and women who did not grow up in this country don’t know how to do it or aren’t wild enough in the bedroom. I don’t think that only westernized women have sexual urges. Granted, women who grew up in the West may be more upfront about it but you and I don’t know how foreign sisters behave in the privacy of their own bedroom with their husband. You are making assumptions here and as far as I know, you have not been married to any foreign sister to make to reach this conclusion.

    By the way, no one expects converts/reverts to suddenly behave like that they grew-up in rural Pakistan or the suburbs of Riyadh. However, they are expected to abstain from fornicating (sex outside of marriage) and remain chaste until they marry. That is what Islam calls for.

    Your thinking is flawed with so many stereotypes that it isn’t even funny. This blog piece seems to have come right out of the Fox News “analysis” room. Muslims are robot. Muslims can show no love. Muslims are sexually frustated. Muslims are homosexuals. Muslims do “honor” killings.
    So, should muslims become promiscuous, with no shame and dignity like the people in the West???? Is that your solution to fix our sexual “blockage”???

  8. West Philly,

    Umar uses stereotypes, but as person who has traveled around the world and is married to a “foreign sister” I can tell you there is a lot of truth to these stereotypes.

    Look at the stereotype of Americans, for instance. If you head to Europe you will find some Europeans play “spot the American” as a sort of game.

    What do they look for? Tenns shoes, jeans, t-shirts, baseball hats, people who are fat, and people who are generally loud.

    Is this a stereotype? It sure is, but the funny thing is using that very same stereotype you will spot TONS of Americans.

    I am an American and I am very aware that there is a fair amount of truth to these stereotypes. I remembering being in London and later Dublin with a group of Irish/English friends and the “spot the American” game was played, rather well, using these same stereotypes.

    In most stereotypes there is an element of truth, whether it is comfortable to admit it or not.

    I have met many foreign brothers who think that having a dour, unhappy face makes them more pious. I worked with one Bengali brother with several years before I saw anything but a grimace on his face.

    As to converts, many of them adopt these stereotyped behaviors as a well of fitting in. This is kind of an indictment of “born Muslims” in that converts shouldnt feel left out enough to think they have to go to extremes to fit in.

    Some converts eat only eastern food, wear eastern dress. Others adopt fake Arabic or Urdu accents, some going as far as starting to type in faked Arabic accents, ie one blogger, American, who uses “ya’ani” even though they dont even speak conversational Arabic. “Ya’ani” isnt a religious term so it must be put off on trying to look or sound Arabic.

    It is an attempt to fit in and speaks loads about the converts themselves and the community they are trying, often unsuccesfully, to become a part of.

    As to the sexual stereotypes, there is some truth in them as well. In the Middle East women are taught that to be overly enthusiastic about sex will cause issue. This doesnt mean the sex drive of women from the Middle East is lower than others, it just means that they are taught to repress it, not to show it, even to their own husbands.

    Experience has taught me that Middle Eastern women are just as sexual, or more so, than others, they just realise that to be open in this manner with their husbands could cause major issues. The culture teaches that a woman with a healthy sexual drive is a threat to her husband and those around her.

    Umar is dealing with reality. Most stereotypes have some basis in reality. I agree with Umar 100% in his analysis. Having been to the Middle East and being married to an Arab woman I have seen a lot of what Umar talks about first hand.

    You need to get a dose of reality, some Muslim cultures do in fact teach and reinforce behaviors that would be called “robotic”. Some Muslim cultures indeed teach that showing love is wrong, in many countries, including Saudi Arabia, public displays of affection will get stares, even attention from police and you could be arrested. In India it is illegal to kiss your spouse in a public place.

    There are Muslim homosexuals, it is well known. My wife and I thought about letting her son join the Saudi military because he is having issues here in the USA, that idea was nixed by her mother and her uncle (retired Brig General in Saudi Air Force) because of the numerous instances of rape of young inductees in the Saudi military.

    Muslim do honour killings, it is fact. Look at the Kurdish girl who was set up to be killed by her brother and father. It took almost a half an hour of jumping up and down on her neck for her “soul to get free”.

    I think you misunderstand Umar and I think you do not have a firm grounding with foreign cultural practices if you doubt what Umar says.

  9. No, many of us are well aware…but my point is what is the solution?!?!?!? It’s great that brothers like Umar and Tariq Nelson show us the real side of life…but okay other than making people depressed…can you give us some solutions?!?!?!? I swear the blogosphere is a negative place in general and the Islamic ones are even more so.

    Immigrants are messed up…converts are messed up…great…but can you give us some positive posts?

  10. “…who cant throw down in the bedroom like Keisha from East St. Louis or Maria from the South Bronx.”

    LOL

    Okay, back to serious mode. Like I said before, I’ll say it again the future generation will be better, inshaAllah!

  11. I’ve totally missed the point of this post, but I would like to add that Muslims need to chill.

    We do not have the guilt and shame Catholics have associated with sex….so we need to stop acting like weirdos inside and outside of the bedroom.

  12. To the “fake DocM,”

    Grow up and use a real alias. Show me where I justified “honor killings.” Put up or shut up, punk.
    BangGully and West African are on the money. These idiotic, insecure, white boy stereotypes sound like they were lifted out of “Team America World Police.” Wow, some Muslims aren’t perfect and do stupid things, must be an “eastern” thing while the “western” ones are enlightened and can do no wrong. Zero points to wannabe cultural anthropolists.
    Umar, stop hanging out with Jerry Springer drama types and using their behavior as the standard for the rest of us. I know you dislike Arabs and desis, but get a grip.

  13. The Muslim world is fucked up that all i have to say, besides all these problems lie from imitating Arab nomadic culture.

    Extreme wealth and idle thinking is the reason why Muslim men especially among Arabs in the Gulf region act this way.

    As for the dude busting a nut in the sight of a women,Man that shit dont exist expect if the person just arrived from the PLANET OF APES.

  14. Sex is the most dangerous WMD out there. besides Taxes and Nation states[Governments of all kind]

    Best thing is to do is make money and stop hating one another period…..

    And let our women make money to, so they can stop yaping all the time.

  15. I think we need to distinguish between stereotypes and characteristics. A stereotype is when you take a small portion of a group and believe that that is the way of the rest of the group, whereas characteristics are more typical for the group. I am speaking to Abu Sinan’s post obviously.

    I was born in the West but my family is Syrian. I’ve been many of my cousins, male and female, get married and they can be pretty wishy-washy romantic. A lot of couples celebrate “3ayd al-Hub” (Valentine’s Day).

    I don’t what are the specific reasons for why men behave the way they do, but as DrM (the first one?) rightly pointed out, there degenerates in “free” societies as well. I think that requires more thought and research.

  16. Enough discussion on sex ! Let us focus on something critical.

    Greed or apathy ? Islamic landmarks in Saudi Arabia are under attack !?

    ……………………………………………………………………………………..

    http://makkah.wordpress.com/2007/08/13/makkah-s-historical-islamic-sites-under-attack-by-money-and-extremism/

    http://makkah.wordpress.com/2007/03/08/the-cost-of-progress-commercialization-of-islams-holiest-site/

    http://www.cnsnews.com/news/viewstory.asp?Page=%5CCulture%5Carchive%5C200512%5CCUL20051229b.html

    ……………………………………………………………………………………….

  17. BangGully,

    I agree with you – the blogs I have just started reading over a month ago leave me very depressed. Yes, they are eye-openers but without any hint of a solution or something positive said in general – it seems like Muslims are completed screwed up and there are really no good Muslims anymore. Even the “good ones” are non-emotional or domineering, etc. One truth is these blogs mirror the atmosphere of the numerous masjids I have attended – joyless. I am under the belief that a happy Muslim, if he exists, is either ignorant of the world around him (ignorantly bliss) or committing some haram on the regular. I guess we will all be happy in Jannah, insha’Allah providing Allah has mercy on us and allow our sorry selfs in. Amin.

  18. I agree with Dr. Maxtor, Ibn Abee Omar and others that think that this is over the top. If brazenness and attention is what you’re looking for, then you’re on the right track. Alot of people will definatley search on the web for the word “sex” and come to your blog. But if you want to benefit people, you need stop generalizing alot of stuff and seperate between stereotypes and misconceptions and wrong practices. Wallahu Alam! :)

  19. “Then they bring it with them to the West when they think that each and every Western woman is a lose sexual fiend ”

    this really bothered me.. it doesn’t lend you much credence to make these kinds of comments when you link to half naked pictures of roselyn sanchez in another post……

  20. salam alaikoum
    Allahou alim I think Umar is just keeping it real with these posts, these are topics we usually don’t “talk about” as an Ummah…there are double-standards, stuff that isn’t said, but like Abu Sinan said, unfortunately some stereotypes exist for a reason. Ask any convert girl about being accused of being an over the top sex fiend just because she is American. Or she can’t clean house and raise kids… because she is an over the top American sex fiend who can only do one thing (sex), no make that two (forgot the green card). Sad to generalize but that’s one example where Umar did stereotype and generalize but he was unfortunately right on.

  21. i think “keeping it real” is a lame excuse to justify unnecessary explicitness and some things which could constitute disobedience in the shari’ah.

    besides the ‘sex fiend’ comment is not what was referred to as over the top, it was rather a double standard employed on this very blog by criticizing people for objectifying women while posting to pictures that further entrench that..

  22. Umar Lee @
    Bro stop with this obsession on writing Blogs about sex and women. this brings more fitna than a benefit besides its getting boring dont you think?

    After 3 blogs on this subject on sex, i think its time to close this issue and start a another topic,maybe what Pacific is speaking about the destruction of Mecca by our “lovely” Salafi brothers in Saudi Arabia or some other topic that doesnt involve sex

    salaam

  23. “In India it is illegal to kiss your spouse in a public place.”
    Can anyone tell me whats wrong about this? And how this translate of people in this region as not romantic? Cause ofcourse they kiss their spouse in privacy.

    If cuddling & kissing in Public gives a kick & is an idea of Romance, then its very absurd.

  24. I will stop writing about sex when I get tired off it and these topics need to be discussed because they are not being addressed by the community and without problems being pointed out more and more people will fall into them. Discussing a problem is a form of a solution because it makes people aware of it.

    I also do not believe in the concept of stereotypes, and is such a thing exists, then the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) stereotyped endlessly in many ahadith about any numbers of people. The issue is people are uncomfortable because they do not want to confront the problems that exist with people they know and that may be them or their family.

    On the issues of Mecca I agree with you to an extent that we need to preserve our Islamic history and it should not be destroyed out of greed; but the problem is the masses of the Muslims are so ignorant that they would turn these places into idols and worship them and perform bizarre rituals.

  25. I do think there were a lot of sweeping generalizations made and of course not all Middle Easterners are such sexually frustrated dogs. However, do we have a problem?
    Yes.
    When the countries that download the most porn are Muslim, we have a problem.
    Like Shaykh Hamza said, the Muslim world has taken the worst from the West and it’s left the best. It hasn’t taken our habits of obeying traffic rules and standing online but it has taken porn and senseless MTV , etc…
    Yes there are many horrible degenerates in this country. But in countries like Egypt now you have men jerking off in front of women in public places.
    My cousins who live in a Muslim country say that where I live (NY) is a much more morally cleaner atmosphere than a Muslim land where you see disgusting things like men publicly signalling to women for oral sex.
    Women are publicly humiliated by Muslim men and they don’t get yelled at.
    In Egypt the police will just tell you ma3alesh, it’s ok.

    The more we keep quiet about this, the more these men think it’s ok to act like that. Nobody ever condemns these men so they keep doing it. Not to say that blogging will eradicate it but it’s a start.(shrug)

  26. Come on Umar, you stereotype like hell, and no, thats not a “discussion” or part of the solution. Please don’t compare yourself to the Prophet(pbuh). A “westernized” ummah(no shortage of metrosexual men and shallow drama queens here) which simply fingerpoints at its eastern counterparts probably has more issues then the other. How freaky is that? Some people actually don’t obsess over sex, or constantly need to bring it up.
    As for the destruction of Islamic historic sites, it has nothing to do with “idol” worship but with the big business racket run by local “princes” who are commercializing the place(including a lingerie shop in a mall next to the Grand masjid in Mecca). Its an utter disgrace what the Saudis have turned the Holy cities into. If they were serious about refraining from idol worship they wouldn’t be kissing Uncle Sam’s a**’s so much.

  27. Umar Lee @

    I agree that the community needs to address this issue of sex,love and its nature but which Muslim scholar or leader is brave enough to tackle this sensitive subject.

    I am sure that the Saudi salafi scholars once again have failed this Ummah in not providing knowledge to the masses in many aspects of islam[Sex,love and women issues] expect in theology,Hanbali fiqh and their lousy fatwas calling for the oppression of women, attacking traditional scholars that have a disagreement with them and cementing the thrones of their kings and Princes.

    ”the masses of the Muslims are so ignorant that they would turn these places into idols and worship them and perform bizarre rituals” I have personally heard from my boy that he saw during Hajj, the sufis were crying and hiting their faces over the Prophet’s [sas] grave. And the Shia both men and women were cursing and throwing bird seeds over the Baqir graveyards.[ where the sahabah are buried ] as a sign of disrespect and hatred.

    Now if that isnt some crazy bidah Umar i dont know, so yeah you on the money on that issue.

  28. As for Saudi greed

    Correct if i am wrong but maybe its part of their agenda to wipe out any physical aspects of Islamic history that dont conform to their methodology of thinking.

    Look at what they have done in the Hejaz[western part of Saudi Arabia] not only historic buildings around Mecca but remains of the Othoman architecture whether its homes or forts were demolished to built a new parking lot.

    This is the terrible price that we muslims pay for allowing a bunch of ignorant bediouns to dictate to us what is history and what is not.

  29. @ DrM (and others like him)

    Dude, you accuse Umar of stereotyping then go on to say that Western Muslims “obsess over sex”

    Umar mentions that romance needs to be a part of *Western* marriages and people go ballistic and start crying haraam and blasting the decadent West.

    people in the Muslim lands may be happy without romance in their marriage and that is fine but WE need it and you should STOP TRYING TO TAKE IT AWAY FROM US BECAUSE THERE IS NOTHING WRONG WITH IT. no one said that Muslim lands need to have Western style marriage, but the opposite is being argued. Trying to turn us into “Easterners” is not going to work man. And we can’t turn people in the Muslim lands into Westerners

    my wife and I are both “dreaded Westerners” (Americans) and yes, we laugh, we joke and we play with one another (gasp!). We go out and have dinner AND A MOVIE (!!) without the kids sometimes. We HOLD HANDS. We TALK and we LISTEN to each other. We go on trips together. We dance together. We console one another when one of us is in pain. We do things to try to “spice up” our relationship. All of the things we do may be alien to a marriage in Muslim countries, but that DOES NOT MAKE IT HARAM

    IT REALLY IRKS THE HELL OUT OF ME that people want to squeeze all the joy out of our lives outside, then on top of that want to police my home and try to tell my wife and me that we should have stop what we are doing (that makes us happy) and implement a joyless marriage where she simply cooks, cleans and gives the sex when I demand it and I work and provide money and bark the orders. Full Stop

    That is not for **ME**. The joyless, “for procreation purposes only” marriage is not for **ME**. That may work for a Saudi, or Pakistani, or Egyptian or Somali couple, and that is perfectly fine but that ain’t for **ME** buddy and stop trying to ram it down my throat. And I will not ram my concept down theirs. **I** couldn’t be married to a woman that does not care if a family member of mine dies because that is outside of her “job description”. But that is just ME

  30. @ BangGully,

    I know what you mean about the negativity, but I am happy to say that my marriage is good, but if my wife and I try to live by the constraints of another culture our marriage will fall apart. Like Umar said, the problem with Western Muslim marriages is with people trying to pretend they grew up in a village in Pakistani instead of down the block where they really grew up. All of this is cultural superiority being put upon us. I refuse to accept it

  31. Thats great Farooq, can you explain to me how you’ve come to the conclusion that Muslim marriages elsewhere are loveless? You don’t, so stop assuming you know what goes on in every Muslim household.
    Sounds like you’re the one suffering from the cultural superiority complex.

  32. Some of you people have zero understanding of most “Eastern” cultures. Have you guys ever seen the movies these people watch? Every 5-10 minutes a song breaks out about how much the person loves her man…hwo she cant see him because of the parents…if anything desi chicks in my experience get played easily simply because they want to fall in love with somebody and have it be all romantic.

    What happens is there is a traditional “no frills, no fun ” element from these same communties that when they immigrate here, are the ones who go to the masjid…therefore the American converts encounter these types more than the urbanised educated types from the Eastern countries…who probably have more sophistication but are also secular and softer than Twinkie filling.

    The thing that bothers me is that Umar also understands that America has big time problems with sex too. So even when I suggested that these problems stemming from Eastern culture will be erased…he responds with Americanisation won’t make it better. Okay,so what will?!?!? He seems to try to cut off hope for any large group of people such as Muslims.

    Okay fine…so then in order to be constructive…you have to be specific and find some specific remedies here….the posts on marriage fairs and marriage counseling is good…but I don’t need to hear that some Arab dude takes pictures of women peeing or that some desi chick strips while wearing the hijab…nobody needs to. We know that things like this happen and thats enough. We can’t stop perverts. Theres also a question of adab when we talk to each other too.

    Also sexuality and concern over sexuality…well it just shows how luxurious our standards are. The reason why a lot of villagers from Muslim countries dont care about sex and wont “put it on you” is because they tryin to eat! They got more important things to worry about and having a great sex life is simply low on their list of priorities. Im here speaking about desis coming from poor villages…I cant speak on Arabs cause them dudes have money.

  33. @DrM

    Dude you don’t get it. People tell us all the time that the Western concept of romance is haraam. Care to look up the litany of fatwas that discourage western style romance between a man and wife???
    How many times have I heard you don’t need “love” in a marriage. (You just kinda go through the motions simply for the sake of ibadah, ya know)

    I don’t believe that and people like you need to stop trying to ram YOUR concepts down our throats and I won’t ram ours down yours. Is that fair enough??

    I’m not saying that our way is superior, but it is ours…leave us with it

    There is obviously nothing wrong with being from Pakistan, but I AM NOT FROM PAKISTAN

    I am tired of people like YOU trying to tell me that every single thing I do in my life is wrong and that I need to act like YOU. I need to eat your food and dress in your cultural garbs and sleep like you in order to be a complete Muslim.

    I never said you need to act like me so drop the crap man.

  34. Stop playing victim and imagining flights of fancy, Farooq. Nobody is trying to “ram” anything down your throat, buddy. Really, I don’t care what you wear, what you eat, who you sleep with or how you wash your behind. Stop projecting your self-loathing and stereotypes on us “easterners.” All that romance, sex and freedom and you’ve only a 55% divorce rate to show for it. Boy, us “easterners” are sure missing out!
    Pardon me while I go watch some stolen cable at my Filipino friends house(they all do it).

  35. @DrM

    Do you sir live in the “East” or the depraved West sir????

    If you live in the depraved West, then what are you doing here if you hate it so much?? What is the problem that you don’t go back if you hate us so much and it is so great over there? What is the problem??? Answer that one

    BTW, AMERICAN ***MUSLIMS*** probably has a divorce rate HIGHER than 55% because so many are trying TO BE PAKISTANIS AND ARABS and not who they are!!!!

  36. Well, I have had the experience of people basically telling me that being an american was bad, and that we should change our names, style of dress, etc. etc.
    Ironically, all the people telling me this were American muslims themselves, although I know they got some of that from scholars in “eastern” conuntries.
    On the other hand, sometimes I hear people lodge complaints against “eastern” about the way they treat women, etc., saying things like “They want their wives to just shut up and make the biriyani” and I’m like, jeez was THAT called for?
    We need to acknowledge that there are stereotypes and offensive comments being made on both sides.
    So how about we call truce?

  37. there would be very little islam in the west without ‘easterners’ because the african americans have done hardly anything before we came. there are 2000 mosque in this country with vast majority being from us “easterners”. all of the ISNA, ICNA, CAIR, charity organizations and zakat funds are established by “easterners”. what have you people done? oh that’s right nothing! so Farooq you people would do good to take a page out of our book in learning how to practice islam

  38. Ahmed you make a very good point, so do you Farooq. However, please let’s not all put this into us against them debate. Let’s not pit ourselves against each other. Let’s try to be more constructive.
    You’re right Ahmed The middle easterners have really done so much for Islam in America because they had and have the capital to do so.
    But what does this have to do with the post?

  39. Your descent into complete absurdity and desperation is becoming laughable, Farooq. You’re just repeating yourself. What are you, some sort of right wing idiot telling people to “love it or leave it”? Tough luck sonny, but I pay taxes just like you, and I will criticize what I dislike and find incompatible with Islamic values(either east or west), which is more then I can say for you, relying on flea bitten stereotypes with your elitist house-Muslim pretensions. Did I mention that I’ve lived in both corners of the world? Unlike you who pretends to be an expert on the daily life of people in a Pakistani village while stating you aren’t a Pakistani. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot.
    You self loathing jokers enjoy the fruits of your immigrant parents labor, as Ahmed noted. If American Muslim divorce rates are as high as you claim(got a source?) then, its not because they’re trying to be desi or Arab. Its because their parents raised a generation of cultureless, shallow meterosexual brats who refuse to grow up and believe in the “my way or the high way” line. Chances are you’re going to toss your parents in a retirement home when its time. I told you before, I don’t care what you wear, what you eat, who you sleep with or how you wash your behind, stop playing victim and projecting your insecurities on others.
    Take that and stick it in your ipod.

  40. American Muslim divorce rates are really high for a whole plethora of reasons I could speculate. So I’m sure 2 opinions you guys think are opposing are both right.
    Now I think we all have to be careful, nobody should be alienating immigrant or american muslims and all we’re doing is alienating each other. African americans have their problems, I would say many of them have an ubermasculine complex(don’t yell at me yell at Dr. Jackson for that one) the women are liberation junkies (dr. j again) everyone’s racist and we can’t actually have a civil discussion when someone is racist against black people, then the black people revert into an even worse racism doesn’t make the matter better. I don’t think it’s useful to pinpoint one problem , I really don’t we are all contributing to the problem the question is how are we going to help, not how are we going to insult each other the most?
    What people don’t like is that there is truth in both of the sides that are opposing each other in this comments section.

  41. @Farooq

    “…that ain’t for **ME** buddy and stop trying to ram it down my throat”

    Eh? Are you not taking aim at a straw man you’ve invented all by yourself?

    There hasn’t been a single instance on this blog or anywhere else where DrM has suggested you should adopt someone else’s idea of romance.

  42. DrM wrote:
    You self loathing jokers enjoy the fruits of your immigrant parents labor, as Ahmed noted

    thanks Dr M. these people need to appreciate who brought them islam and see that they have done nothing with islam but complain and set us back while they enjoy the mosques and organizations that we have built. why dont they go fix their broken families and 80% out of wedlock births before they come preach at us while we buiild islam in this country. they would do very well to adopt our culture and values to uplift themselves

    they should take a back seat and enjoy the ride and stop complaining. we don’t need them but they do need us

  43. @Farooq

    “If you live in the depraved West, then what are you doing here if you hate it so much?? What is the problem that you don’t go back if you hate us so much and it is so great over there? What is the problem??? Answer that one”

    I’ll have a go, if I may?

    First of all, nobody hates anyone. As for what some of us are doing in the “West” – well, ever heard of the globalisation of R&D? You see, it has a lot to do with where in the world some of us take up residence at any given time. To you, a specific geographical locality should belong to a specific people, but companies don’t share this view and don’t have a care for geographical boundaries, for them, the talent war is truely global and they plug into wherever they can find it -global teams speed up innovation b/c they can work around the clock.

    One hopes you’ve heard of Bangalore-and the number of talent spotters from the Silicon Valley hovering over it 24/7.

    Anyway, for those of us that were taught to just learn and follow our dreams (and everything else will follow) the world is our oyster.

    Your country is fortunate to have a doctor of the calibre of DrM.

  44. let’s take a look at the good ol’ western values:

    – black out of wedlck birthrate is near 80%!!

    – blacks are seven times as likely as people of other races to commit murder, eight times more likely to commit robbery and three times more likely to use gun in a crime.

    – blacks are 39 times more likely to commit violent crime against a white person than vice versa, and 136 times more likely to commit robbery

    and you poeple think you have good culture?? think about this the next time you people come to beg the “easterners” for money to save your mosque or for zakat money.

    and the blog owner posts pictuers of women and movies and rappers that promote this filth. is this what you want to see in the mosques? is this is values you want to bring? i think you poeple need to look in the mirror a little bit and understand who brought any kind of value to islam in this country

    how many of you peple are hafiz? in Pakistan go to the mosque and you will find first two rows are hafiz. how many of you poeple are hafiz? how many of you are alims and have learned deen? do the names extend to the second hand? then who has the right to talk about who here? show some appreciation of the islam we taught you and the mosques we built that you poeple pray in. you poeople would do much better to be seen and not heard. is there any islam in this country except that “easterners” built it?

  45. Your country is fortunate to have a doctor of the calibre of DrM

    there would be no muslim doctors without the “easterners”. or engineers for that matter. but there would be many high school drop outs

  46. Ahmed….

    Go to pakistan andyou’llhave khutbahs in Arabic which most DONOT understand.

    the DESI doctors in AMerica are mediocre, at least the ones I’ve been to.

    what good is a hafiz who doens’t understand whathe’s saying NOR applies it?otherwise you people wouldn’t be HONOR MURDERS….sniffing bloody sheets…going to Europe to get your hymens repairs.

    Stop being hateful because AMERICAN condoms are toolarge foryou people….

  47. according to Bureau of Justice statistics, between 1976 and 2005, blacks, while just 13 percent of the population, committed over 52 percent of the nation’s homicides and were 46 percent of the homicide victims. ninety-four percent of black homicide victims had a black person as their murderer.

    take that

  48. Ahmed,

    I am an American Muslim electrical engineer and it had nothing to do with “eastern” Muslims. There are three other converts were I work that are electrical engineers as well, again, nothing to do with “eastern Muslims”.

    You have a lot of hate in you Ahmed, time for you to work it out.

  49. He is right, Blacks commit overwhelming amount of crime and its not because only because of past injustices. I really do think its cultural and genetic to an extent. Just like men are more violent than women.

    But a coming from a Pakistani, as someone said, people in glass houses shouldn’t throw stones. Look at the UK. The Black community in America is more educated and wealthier than the Muslim Desis in the UK, look at the Muslim crime rate in UK. Look at the rapes committed by Muslims in Australia and Scandinavia. Everybody needs to take a look in the mirror before always looking down on Blacks in America.

  50. im just bringing the facts and do not even try to compare the pakistani community to the black community. the pakistani community has doctors, engineers and professionals while the black community is filled with pathology of the west. pakistanis do not have out of wedlock births evn close to 80%. where is the pakistani ‘BET’? do pakistanis have rap videos praising violence? pakistanis have solid family structure while the blacks do not have this. why dont we see maruading gangs of pakistani youth in the US killing each other?

    as DrM said you people are suffering from victim complexes and asinine excuses for the horrible horrible problems in this sorry excuse for a society. and you want to call this ‘civilization’? there is no civilization in the west

  51. Anon said, “Everybody needs to take a look in the mirror before always looking down on Blacks in America.”

    Thank you ANON, that’s all I was saying. Now that we’ve gotten that out on the table, what are we doing to restore our communities? As Muslims, we should be looking to better all of humanity, which includes the disenfranchised blacks in inner cities. Michael Jordan wouldn’t have been the great ball player had he given up. Remember he was cut from the high school basketball team<—a lesson to be learned, deeper than dribbling the ball.

    I live in the hood because I feel it’s where I can make the biggest impact. Alhumdulilah I have never seen or heard gunshots or anything else associated with the black community, I do have the displeasure of hearing about these things on the morning news… I interact with the children in my community every single day – asking about their grades, what they are reading, plans for the future, and yes I go as far as addressing them as Dr. and reminding them of the rich legacy they came from. I give them small jobs – taking out my trash and carrying my bags and pay them a dollar or two, so they will feel like they did something grande.

    Ahmed, you are angry. Why? Were you robbed by a black man? Dissed by a black woman? Can you blame her, the last time a black woman dated a desi man, he hacked her and fled the country… watch AMW if you want to know what I mean. The FBI and US Marshalls most wanted are NOT black men, but yes there are black men on the list. Are you the black sheep of your family? I am… my family is stuck up, i’m down to earth and feel at home in the hood surrounded by beautiful black faces…their souls understand my struggles. As Muslim you should too – fitting negative stereotypes, always having to prove yourself because someone else fucked up. It wears me down, i don’t know about you, despite the numerous problems plaguing black america, I wouldn’t trade the glory of being a black woman for anything in this world. One thing we have, which causes us to rank high as single mothers, is a lot of moxie. With all the hurdles through in our path, the world has yet to hold us back.

  52. bint will you poeple are not doing anything except wallowing in victimhood. the pakistani american community is very affluent and is far beyond the black community and their pathologies.

  53. Bint Will,

    Stop trying to reason with people like DrM and Ahmed as they are only showing what they think of us. They come to the West not to improve it but to look down their noses and talk down at us and quote statistics about how bad we are. If they hate us (Muslim and non-Muslim) and the West so much, then why do they come here? You won’t see their likes in a homeless shelter or food bank trying to help, but standing on the side talking about how decadent the people are.

  54. Ahmed, its easy to look at Pakistanis in the US, we only let in the most educated, even that is changing as the relatives who are not so educated are coming over. Even then the Pakistani community has more poverty than the white community. Lets look at Pakistan, yes Eastern cultures have strong family values, something that needs to be reinstated in the American community but Black Americans are more literate and on average more wealthy than Pakistan, if you look at the percentages.

    I think its eye opening to look at the Pakistani community in UK, 40%-60% poverty. Cant say its racism because the Hindus don’t have that same problem.

  55. Farooq,
    Your are right, thank your for reminding me not to stoop to his lowely level.

    KARACHI, Aug 22: A bandit was shot dead while two of his accomplices fled in what police described as an encounter in the Defence Housing Authority on Wednesday night. SO MUCH FOR OUR MODEL CITIZENS…

    KARACHI, Aug 22: The Anti-violent Crime Unit busted a gang involved in the kidnapping of children, DIG Investigation Manzoor Mughal told a press conference here on Wednesday. A kidnapped boy, Sher Dil, was recovered following arrest of Sultan Zeb, Noor Bacha alias Sheena, Isreal and Perveen (Isreal’s wife), all hailing from the NWFP, the DIG said.—Staff Reporter

    NAWABSHAH, Aug 22: Two women, one of them expecting a baby, allegedly tortured by their husbands, were admitted to NMC Hospital on Wednesday.

    According to reports, two sisters, Ms Rukhsana and Ms Gulshan were severely beaten up by their husbands, Tariq Ahmed and Imtiaz Ahmed (both brothers) respectively at their residence in Doctors Colony.

    Ahmed, may Allah clean your heart of the filth covering it…AMEEN. May your sisters, female relatives MARRY BLACK MEN…. AMEEN! May Allah overlook your ignorance and help you overcome the pain and anger AMEEN.

    (((((CRASH)))) that the sound of the glass… flying through your window…

    seems our pakistani cousins are NO just as out of control as us black folks in america… LOL at least we acknowledge the vermin in our community…

  56. Ok now I understand why bintwill got riled up.
    I think there was some very good points.
    1. Most immigrants to the US are educated and the cream of the crop.
    2.The majority of immigrants do not contribute to their homelands by returning and “giving back’. Rather they donate money to dubious organizations that turn out to be on the US terror list and/or support their entire extended family.
    3. The Immigrants who are illegal dupe marry western sisters in order to acquire greencards.
    4.The desi community in Europe are poorer, more disadvantaged than the desis in the USA. Why? (See #1)
    5.The Indo-Pak community wish to be american more than most americans. Who can forget the talkiing heads after 9-11 who attempted to throw suspicion on the Black Muslims because of the jail converts.To this date..how many Black muslims have been arraigned or arrested due to terror charges?
    6.The illustrious medical community are no longer seen as the creme de la creme.They are viewed with suspicion due to the Glasgow attempted bombing.It became clear to the World Governments that the people to fear with relates to Terror were those professionals who had money who operated under the radar as “Good Citizens”…Unless you dont believe the FBI arent going through the immigration records of ALL Indo-Pak physicians in the US.
    Thats just a few randoms

  57. Ahmed- Shut up. Pakis and bengalis come from notoriously corrupt countries. If you pay a police officer in these countries…you can rape a girl or kill somebody right on the street. The poverty in both these countries is so bad its a sign of disbelief. 10 year old girls being sold into prostitution…criminals that cut throw acid at your grill or torture people when they rob them…not only that come to NYC…Pakis and Bengalis are the best credit card fraudsters and tax evaders I’ve ever seen. I’ve mentioned this before…but this most corrupt immoral and basically kufr type people I met have been desis and Arabs so take it easy.

    Anyway…that last couple of threads have been marred by this racial infighting…the Devil is laughing somewhere at all this…This “keep it real” style of grating journalism will only provoke these polarised responses…and before I have to hear this..There is a difference between addressing racial reality and spewing garbage and hate…a lot of these posts seem to be on the latter side…Compared to the rest of the Muslim world we all have been blessed with a requisite level of wealth and stability and we can utilize this to our advantage. Negativity and lack of patience, effort and adab will only derail Islam in this country.

  58. Ahmed, I take strong exception to the comments you’ve made about African Americans. You need to familiarize yourself with their history before going off in a minimalist stormfront style diatribe. Try living in the hood(as I did) before playing the numbers game. These are the same tactics used by the far right in Europe against Muslim minorities.
    And Farooq, I see you snuck back in to make up more bizarre claims. Reread my previous post to you, before repeating the same old refuted stereotypical garbage(btw loser, we do all sorts of charity works, from organizing food drives to collecting funds for the needs, both imigrants, and locals). Get back to me when you’re done feeling sorry for your self. What a pathetic drama queen.

  59. Just after reading this blog entry about sex, I noticed that there were 69 comments. ‘Wow, how very relevant to the topic…’ I thought :P (Don’t ask how a Muslim with a ridiculous screen name knows about 69, let’s just say a non-Muslim friend explained it to me.)

    (OMG, a non-Muslim friend :S )

    Anyways, I’m gonna ruin the little joke and add a comment, because now that I’ve read through the comments, I found out that there was very little discussion about sex, so they are undeserving of stopping at 69 for the inside-joke amusement.

    What did I find? Racism, tribalism, and defence, from both sides. And frankly, problems in dealing with sex among Muslims seems to me a smaller problem than Muslims dividing themselves and fighting each other.

    Below are some statements I found in the comments that I would like to comment on myself:

    “These are PROBLEMS. It irks me when Muslims just write it off and say “well the West has this””
    -I totally agree. Comparing ourselves to the misdeeds of others doesn’t excuse OUR misdeeds.

    “There is often correction/judgement with no adab or common sense.”
    – Spot on. Someone please remind me of the hadiths which highlight manners (way of dealing with people) as being VERY important to Deen (more important than non-compulsory practices/sunnahs). It’s VERY sad when someone goes against the Prophet’s sunnah of being kind, in an attempt to enforce a less significant sunnah such as how long your pants should be, or whatever.

    “…Many of them are conservative in their own cultural sense which does not necessarily mean they are “conservative” in the Islamic sense.”
    – I think we should remember that anti-Islamic cultural practices are what’s to blame in many cases, both in the east and the west.

    “I have met many foreign brothers who think that having a dour, unhappy face makes them more pious.”
    – didn’t these brothers read that smiling is charity? what’s wrong with some ‘pious’ people? (to be fair, I’ve met very religious people who are always smiley, but that’s just me)

    “Extreme wealth and idle thinking is the reason why Muslim men especially among Arabs in the Gulf region act this way.”
    – very true for a chunk of Arab men from the gulf. However, MOST Arabs are nowhere close to stereotypical wealth as most non-Arabs seem to think. Just look at stats on poverty, even in SA.

    “I was born in the West but my family is Syrian. I’ve been many of my cousins, male and female, get married and they can be pretty wishy-washy romantic. A lot of couples celebrate “3ayd al-Hub” (Valentine’s Day).”
    – Anyone who thinks ‘eastern’ Muslims are not romantic has never been to Syria or Lebanon. I have many friends from those parts, and they are soooo romantic/lovey-dovey/sweet/emotional that they can give you diabetes and tooth decay from a mile away :) Much more than Americans! Hah! I said it, my first stereotypes :P
    Granted, there are differences amongst Muslims, even among Arabs, and you also get the much more repressed Arabs specially in the gulf, and that’s why I think you get more perversions there (as far as I know)

    “Like Shaykh Hamza said, the Muslim world has taken the worst from the West and it’s left the best. It hasn’t taken our habits of obeying traffic rules and standing online but it has taken porn and senseless MTV , etc…”
    – spot on! lol, traffic rules :)

    “But in countries like Egypt now you have men jerking off in front of women in public places.”
    – my sis went to Jordan for a while, and it happened to her there. It was quite a shock for a Western Muslim having idealist fantasies of Muslim countries being Islamic. What we have to acknowledge is this: Muslim countries are NOT Islamic nowadays, and though they have good practicing Muslims in them, they also have non-practicing Muslims influenced by anti-Islamic traditions and anti-Islamic global trends (I don’t wanna blame the west only, I’m sure a lotta bollywood films and other things have their role). We shouldn’t condemn ‘eastern’ Muslims as a whole for what some among them do.

    “Umar mentions that romance needs to be a part of *Western* marriages and people go ballistic and start crying haraam and blasting the decadent West.”
    – I can’t find where people claimed romance is haraam, for any marriage, and if they did, they’re wrong. The Prophet saw used to have fun and play with his wives, did he not?

    “people in the Muslim lands may be happy without romance in their marriage and that is fine”
    – bro, I think this is WAY overgeneralized. the rest of the comment seemed unnecessarily accusatory (maybe in response to your experiences that I’m not aware of), but on its own, it don’t look good.

    “Dude you don’t get it. People tell us all the time that the Western concept of romance is haraam. Care to look up the litany of fatwas that discourage western style romance between a man and wife???
    How many times have I heard you don’t need “love” in a marriage. (You just kinda go through the motions simply for the sake of ibadah, ya know)”
    – ooh, here’s my answer. I’m not aware of any of these fatwas, and I’m sure there are stronger opinions regarding love. Qur’anic verse mentioning love and affection between man and woman as a sign from God, anyone?

    “I don’t believe that and people like you need to stop trying to ram YOUR concepts down our throats and I won’t ram ours down yours. Is that fair enough??”
    – unless the specific person you were talking to said otherwise somewhere other than this comment board, I don’t think this is a fair accusation. I haven’t seen anyone on this page say anyting about romance being haram. I just saw some ‘easterners’ protesting that not all easterners are as described by Umar, and protesting that there IS love and romance among arabs and desis. Sure, there are bad things too, but they tend to get in the news and form our perceptions.

    How often do you read a news article about some Muslim doing something bad? Prolly a lot.
    Now how many articles out there report on some Muslim in an ‘eastern’ country doing something good? Not much. It doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen!!!

    “If you live in the depraved West, then what are you doing here if you hate it so much?? What is the problem that you don’t go back if you hate us so much and it is so great over there? What is the problem???”
    – ok, this is uncalled for. we’re all Muslims, not eastern and western Muslims, but MUSLIMS!

    “there would be very little islam in the west without ‘easterners’ because the african americans have done hardly anything before we came”
    – ok bro, that is wrong. Only God is to thank for, not ‘easterners’. Let’s not start self-aggrandizing now. God knows, if ‘easterners’ looked at themselves more instead of comparing themselves with Americans, maybe they might collectively conduct themselves better, and win over more people to Islam through their example. I say it’s by God’s grace that westerners here are Muslim, mashaAllah, DESPITE the many problems they see among ‘eastern’ Muslims.

    “Let’s not pit ourselves against each other. Let’s try to be more constructive.”
    – Ameen.

    “Chances are you’re going to toss your parents in a retirement home when its time”
    – ok bro, that was uncalled for. counter stereotyping does noone any service. have better trust in your Muslim brothers.

    “these people need to appreciate who brought them islam and see that they have done nothing with islam but complain and set us back while they enjoy the mosques and organizations that we have built.”
    – oooh, ‘we’ built. again, Islam came to erase tribalism. only piety is worth competing in. ‘easterners’ ‘brought’ Islam to the West by God’s grace. Did it ever cross anyone’s mind that God may find devoted followers in Westerners once Easterners abandon the deen? Isn’t that the sunnah of the world? All thanks to God for our Islam.

    “they would do very well to adopt our culture and values to uplift themselves”
    – both eastern and western cultures have good points as well as bad points. instead of adopting each others’ cultures, why don’t we keep the good of both, drop the bad, and do it all in accordance with Islam? now who’s acting superior here?

    “is there any islam in this country except that “easterners” built it”
    – and is there any Islam in Pakistan except that Arabs built? and is there any Islam in Medina except that Meccans built? yet Pakistan is now producing hafizs, so is MAlaysia, and so is America. They’re new comers, give them a chance. and let your hafiz implement the deen in the east, inshaAllah.

    “Stop being hateful because AMERICAN condoms are toolarge foryou people….”
    – finally, a comment about sex! (yet another stereotype, no details from me though :P )

    “(about black crime) I really do think its cultural and genetic to an extent.”
    – I could puke. Whatever happened to Islamic responsibility for one’s actions? Or Islamic ANTI-racism?

    “bint will you poeple are not doing anything except wallowing in victimhood. the pakistani american community is very affluent and is far beyond the black community and their pathologies.”
    – and there are poor Pakistani communities elsewhere with problems, and affluent black communities elsewhere without these problems. Again, this is turning tribal instead of Muslims, whatever background, getting to know each other.

  60. And Allah knows best, may HE guide us all.

    Just a point I’d like to make:
    some ‘anti-western’ posters make use of stats to brush the west as all bad, which is wrong! (I’m not denying problems there)

    equally worrying is the reciprocal way some ‘anti-eastern’ posters use anecdotes and aberrations of eastern behaviour to condemn the eastern Muslims as bad, which is equally wrong! (again, I’m not denying that there are problems in eastern Muslim countries)

    But it’s really hurtful for an Arab to be told Arabs are a bunch of honour-killing cavemen, when honour-killing is a rare aberration in Arab societies. Equally hurtful is to claim that Americans are sex fiend good for nothings who go around shooting each other.

    What bugs me is that Muslims seem to be using fuel supplied by the enemies of Islam to attack each other!!!

    Honour killing is so rare that the number documented in the last decades isn’t even in the 10s. Yet anti-Muslim sites, and willingly sloppy mass-media, overblow this issue for sensationalism and political reasons. There have been many cases of ‘honour-killing’ stories promoted in Western media that have turned out to be fabrications and hoaxes. It’s disheartening to see Muslims themselves accept these to defame other Muslims. I mean, not even Christians attack each other the way we seem to be doing in this thread. I’ve never seen an African Christian accuse a Scottish Christians of being sheep-fanciers, because some Scotsmen were caught intimately admiring sheep! Even paedophile priests don’t give enough fuel for us to condemn all CAtholics of the act. So why the double standards when we talk among ourselves? I say ‘we’ and ‘ourselves’ refering to both ‘eastern’ and ‘western’ Muslims, btw, for what I hope are obvious reasons.

    And what’s up with all this sheet sniffing, hymen repairing practices I’ve never heard of? I thought I got enlightened when I found out about sodomy, sex tourism, and other perversions afflicting parts of Arab societies, but some of this stuff is news.

    Anyways, surely we could all rise above over-generalizations?

    Salam alaikum wa rahmatullahu wa Barakatu.

    (and who woulda known talk of sex would split the ummah?)

  61. Salaams Boondocks, how are things?

    “I am sure that the Saudi salafi scholars once again have failed this Ummah in not providing knowledge to the masses in many aspects of islam[Sex,love and women issues] expect in theology,Hanbali fiqh and their lousy fatwas calling for the oppression of women, attacking traditional scholars that have a disagreement with them and cementing the thrones of their kings and Princes.”

    Wow Boondocks, …seems there’s no end to the numerous ways in which the Salafi scholars have failed the Ummah…Lol…everyday, I learn of a new failure that can be placed squarely at the door of those “evil” Salafis. But pls ignore this comment as I meant to ask you something else instead but got sidetracked.

    As someone who has lived in SA, when you talk about the destruction of Islamic historic sites,have you actually been to those places b4 their destruction? Is it not true that they were being turned into the “Sanctuary of Our Lady of Lourdes” of the Muslim world?

    We have to be careful not to fight Stephen Schwartz’s war that’s intended to pit the Salafi wing of Islam against the traditional wing. It’s perfectly plausible the Saudis set out with honourable intentions; namely, to bring an end to the practice of shirk in that region. The fact greedy princes then piggy-backed on this endeavour and are now busy turning the whole place into one humongous Ann Summers shop is just an unfortunate development that’s not tied to the original plans.

  62. Saggal,

    I agree with you to a certain extent about the historical places, but I would wonder how you explain the fact that luxery highrises are to be built that stand over the Kabbah and the Grand Mosque?

    I would argue that these very expensive apartments and timeshares are very materialistic and will turn Mecca and the Grand Mosque into a santuary of materialism! Imagine that, the skyline from the Kabbah will be decorated with a monument to outrageous material expenditure.

  63. Saggal
    salaam
    I know these salafis quite well,Saggal because i used to be a salafi not long ago.
    Now i am Ashari in aqeedah and a Shafi in fiqh but i dont engage in Mawlid celebrations nor in tawwsul.
    These Princes dont give a dam about the Muslims nor do their scholars as long it confines with their nationalistic polices.
    Let me you a question Saggal why do the Saudi regime treats Muslims living in their country like Vermin especially among the Asian people[Pakistan,India etc].

    Arent they suppose to be a islamic state and where are their scholars huh….. sleeping i guess as long as they and their families are paid.

    As the great salafi scholar Ibn Mubarak [2 century Hijra] said I quote “if you see a scholar sitting in front of the rulers gate note that this scholar is a thief in his religon”
    So tell me how many real scholars who defend the truth are in Saudi Arabia today.

  64. @Abu Sinan

    “…but I would wonder how you explain the fact that luxery highrises are to be built that stand over the Kabbah and the Grand Mosque?”

    I think we all find these tall buildings so near to the Grand Mosque very scary.

    The comment below is by Imam S. Webb, I’ve done a copy&paste from another site that was discussing this very topic.

    “Asalamu alaykum,

    That tall building and the soon to be, world’s tallest, Dubai Tower can only remind one of the following:

    “When will be the hour?” “The questioned knows no more than the questioner.” What are some of its signs?” ………….. and you will see the naked barefoot shepherds competing in the construction of tall buildings.” “That was Jibril. He came to teach you your religion.” related by Muslim

    Something to think about…
    SDW”

  65. @Boondocks

    Salaams,

    “Let me you a question Saggal why do the Saudi regime treats Muslims living in their country like Vermin especially among the Asian people[Pakistan,India etc]. ”

    I do not know, Boondocks.

    Although I’d ordinarily not contemplate hiring house help, if ever I got the opportunity I’d be tempted to “employ” a few Saudis and put them to work scrubbing floors from sunrise to sunset, making chapatis 24/7 that nobody eats anyway, have a kennel constructed in the backyard for them to sleep in -but only for 45mins mind -the rest of the time they have to be on their feet working. Oh, and if they were women, I’d make sure to lock them in the bathroom whenever my husband was around so as to preempt any scandal that might arise from his ever meeting them. What sort of a rotten to the core society is that that resorts to hiding house girls in the bathroom whenever their men are in the house? I kid you not, this really does happen in SA, I know people it has happened to.

  66. @Boondocks

    “Now i am Ashari in aqeedah”

    I’m curious to know how this happened. I’m neither Salafi nor Madhhabist though obviously given my origins, I know more about the Shafi’i fiqh than anything else…and for aqeedah, well, let’s just say I subscribe to the framework of aqeedah as taught by al-Maghrib Institute.

  67. Umar,

    Having been born and raised in the West but travelled all over the world and spent a considerable time in South Asia, I can say these are not just Islamic issues, Hindus in India often fall victim to these very same mentalities.

    I don’t think it’s specific to any religion, rather where cultures have extreme segregation between sexes, and so called “traditional values”, you will get these behaviours.

    The sexual frustration between MARRIED people is so high that the men take it out on innocent strangers in the streets by grabbing our tits and asses!!!

    Arranged marriages and the “joint family system” where tons of relatives live under one roof is DEATH for the development of romance and eroticism in a marriage.

    Mother in law pokes nose in everything, due to the fact that she is not “getting any” from her husband and expects her son to take his place, and hence becomes jealous when he marries and brings home a daughter in law. Competition begins as if they are two high school girls with a crush on the same boy.

    Ridiculous!

  68. “Mother in law pokes nose in everything, due to the fact that she is not “getting any” from her husband and expects her son to take his place, and hence becomes jealous when he marries and brings home a daughter in law. Competition begins as if they are two high school girls with a crush on the same boy. ”

    *insert “puking” smiley here*

  69. The gov’ts in the Muslim lands are a major problem. They have a form of thought control over the masses.

    Gov’t agents spread false rumors amongst them and keep them riled up and constantly thinking of the most basic needs in life.

    All that is required of the people is a primitive nationalism which could be appealed to whenever it is necessary. And even when they become discontented, as they sometimes do, their discontent leads nowhere, because, without general ideas other than empty slogans, they could only focus it on petty specific grievances.

    The larger evils invariably escape their notice. In all questions of morals they are allowed to follow their ancestral code.

  70. Winston, lay off the funny cigarettes. Muslim governments are puppet regimes of the west, and the masses there are far more intelligent then the idiots here who are addicted a constant diet of Hannity, Limbaugh, Beck etc.
    So much for “free thinkers.”

  71. Assalamu’alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa baarakatuh

    I appreciate all the infos. I’m thinking to make an argument,but I feel to say things as they are,just as all of you could be that way here in your true selves,to mention facts,to relate to each other,showing pros and contras,while having strong points and weak points,all of you might be the judges,as I see all of you as having a healthy mind,I would try to relate with you rather than to look for a fight.

    It was mentioned about romance before jima’,and I fully agree with you Mr.Lee,so Umar you better check this writing of mine and analyze it wholeheartedly,would you ?. Readings that I’ve got and a few reality I know from hearing people talk is that about that hadits to Abu Dzar Al Ghifari by Aisyah’s Radhiyallahu anha’s husband Shalallahu ‘Alaihi wa Sallam where he said that in the penis there is shadaqah,when we use it in halaal relationship,in HR.Shahih Abu Daud no.1 by Abu Abdurrahman Al Albani)

    To the point where a Muslim would like to do with “love and suppleness” doing 15 minutes of foreplay,20 minutes of dukhul and comforting his wife after the wife feels orgasm. The unfortunate thing is when many Muslims almost never gave his wife this,while he almost always got it when he got ejaculation.

    I appreciated honesty and the truth and all praises is to Allah,good guys are who never done jima’,masturbation(onani),anal or oral sex,so that he marries still in fitrah condition,cause his wife is the only one who has the right to do jima’ with him and deserves the virginity of him. Well if someone doing zina once then don’t expect to marry who never have done it.

    Poliginy is one of the possibility offered so that every rajul could be fully aware of their own potential in life and as a person who does poliginy in a fair way,he must fulfill his obligation as a husband so that way,he suppose to be in shape and to express himself fully to which is Allah loves without being premeditated,superficial and immoral or indecent.

    And no person on earth could feel the sorrow and loneliness of an unmarried person,especially daughters(nisa) and give the solution,except Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala and the way of the prophets.

    Now let me exposes the fact with Christian priests at 1st century to centuries after that. Most of them doing POLIGINY,this is written by historian. Where did the priest get their sources from ?. Poliginy aren’t right only because we live in this era.

    I hope you don’t mind… if we let go our stereotypes,so that all of us have the opportunity to grow. Salafiyyah is a longer way,more flexible and very much alive,so when your superego… cannot cope with the perseverance and versatilities of it,all I can say is… that you’ll experience void in your life.

    I would like to underline the war which Muslimin gonna face between them with imam Mahdi and Almasih ‘Isa ibnu Maryam against Rome,India,Ashbahani Jews,Almasih Dajjal. All the ahli kitab that live at that time will have faith to Almasih ‘Isa ibnu Maryam,before he died. This is inside hadits. In exception to those that are killed and they becoming kafir and not ahli kitab anymore after believing Almasih Dajjal,the name “Jews” are only because in the surface they account themselves as Jews.

    While Ya’juj Ma’juj or Gog Magog,Allah ‘Azza wa Jalla will kill them by a miracle. If you want to know the entire story that gonna happen to us or our descendants,read “Qishahu Addajjal…(The Story of Dajjal and The Upcoming of ‘Almasih ‘Isa ibnu Maryam To Kill Him”) by Muhammad Nashiruddin Al Albani rahimakumullah

  72. To whom porns are made… please download the Natura Sound Therapy. It gives stimulus to your brain by sounds like birds chirping,ocean’s moving to the beach,rain falls etc. To hear that while watching the videos in there like a butterfly sucking a flower,the ocean,moving clouds etc. Its effecting people who wanna have a sound and efficient sleep,for who got Schizoprenia,stress,for healing as well.

    Assalamu’alaikum wa rahmatullah

Leave a Reply

Fill in your details below or click an icon to log in:

WordPress.com Logo

You are commenting using your WordPress.com account. Log Out / Change )

Twitter picture

You are commenting using your Twitter account. Log Out / Change )

Facebook photo

You are commenting using your Facebook account. Log Out / Change )

Google+ photo

You are commenting using your Google+ account. Log Out / Change )

Connecting to %s