Only PUNKS do marital rape (Sex and the Muslims Part 1)

After thinking about this issue, I have decided to write a little something on it.

The first thing is that – as Amad alluded – this is a major problem. Many many Muslim marriages are shams and/or unhappy for many reasons. The first reason I think that this is the case is because of a lack of a tradition of a love marriage. Marriage is a business contract. In fact, in some cultures a love marriage is something shameful and considered illicit and many Muslims are married to people they may not even like and may even find physically repulsive or at least unattractive and this creates some problems in the area of intimacy. Many are married to their cousins and there is no romantic tradition. It is just something you do when nature calls…kinda like going to the bathroom. And many Muslims give it about as much thought as they do their choice of a toilet.

The main thing that many Muslim men (convert or otherwise) unfortunately do not realize is that a woman – any woman – needs three things in a relationship:

1 – Security – She wants to know that she (and any children) will be taken care of. She wants to know that her family will be able to eat and have a secure home. She wants to know that the utilities will be paid. This is why when things go wrong in this area, many women tend to nag. And when you get a bunch of brothers that can’t hold a job that can take care of a family trying to get married, you are going to have some problems. Many marriages are doomed before they start

2 – Emotional– A woman wants someone to talk to and hear her out when she wants to vent. If the man is not providing this, then she will find someone else to talk to. She wants to feel important and needed. She wants to feel beautiful. She wants to be romanced. She wants to be courted. She wants to feel special. She wants to do things that she likes to do with her husband. This is a major problem for Muslims because so many brothers just don’t believe in romance. Many don’t make the woman feel like a human being much less a WOMAN. You can just listen to the way brothers talk about women.

Go to Muslim gatherings or mosques and women are shoved in a tiny smelly section of the building, they eat last as if they were pets being given leftovers. Go to a Muslim country, or even to a Muslim neighborhood here, and you will see women carrying a baby and a bag of groceries, and the husband walking down the street chillin a few yards ahead yapping on his cell phone. This is from dysfunctional culture in Muslim countries that has produced. And here in the US, they are treated basically like little more than children.

3 – Sexual satisfaction – if one of the previous two are not present, you can forget about this one. If she doesn’t feel secure, then she is too stressed out to even think about this. If she has no emotional attachment to the man, then it is the same thing. Because so many men, just want to come in and ram for two minutes, (on top of no emotional attachment) this makes for an awful marriage for many Muslim women. This is why there is talk to “marital rape”. These men don’t know how to romance a woman, develop an emotional attachment and make her want to do it. No, they just TAKE IT because the hadith says that this is their right to do so as if the woman is a piece of property. Any man that has to resort to “marital rape” IS A PUNK and I feel sorry for any Muslim sister who is married to a chump like this. There is nothing more sorry than a man who feels he has to take sex from a woman or beg for sex from a woman. If you are doing your job as a man she will be throwing it at you and you will have to fight her off at night and if this is not the case you are either not meeting the previous two conditions properly, are someone she finds to be physically repugnant, or you cant get the job done in bed and sex with you is about as enjoyable as cutting grass. So even when she does give it to you she is probably closing here eyes and thinking of someone else.

The major problem is that Muslim men do not understand this. They don’t understand that a marriage REQUIRES romance and not just the kitchen and bedroom (i.e., “my rights”).

As for converts, many of them were men who had no concept of romance and came into Islam with Eazy-E’s understanding of women. They feel that they have to over assert themselves in the home like a PIMP because of their insecurities and resort to beating and marital rape. They had ZERO game before Islam and could not get women, but now in Islam, they have access to women where they did not before and have NO CLUE of what to do. They just read all about “their rights” and think that this is all a marriage is.

Unfortunately, for many of these brothers, including converts, the understanding of “rights” does not extend to their responsibilities to take care of their wives and children (even after divorce) and not leaving a trail of “halal baby mamma’s”.

With the Muslim men from overseas, they grew up without a concept of romance as it is seen as something that is frowned upon hence many of them also do not know what to do with a woman other than have her to cook his food and for her to be accessible for 2 minutes of sex with no foreplay (and I am sure many of these men do not mind of their wives wants to give them a little foreplay but do not want to reciprocate).
These women often have no venue to express themselves. NOT EVEN TO THEIR OWN HUSBANDS. They have to keep their opinions to themselves. In many cases, if they express an opinion to any extent to their husbands, they are slapped. I am totally amazed that in light of this many women stick it out and know enough not to blame Islam for this non-sense (and I am also amazed by some of the meek little wimpy white-collar Muslim men who I have found out beat their wives in addition to the usual suspects).

The only time that the family goes out together is at the masjid or some community functions and you will spend that time totally separate (she in the women’s section and he in the men’s). They don’t spend that time TOGETHER. They never have time to make an emotional attachment.

With all of this being the case, this is why I cringe when we hear khutbahs about and the superior moral virtue of Muslim lands and deny the many sexual hangups.

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213 thoughts on “Only PUNKS do marital rape (Sex and the Muslims Part 1)

  1. Salaamu alaikum —

    It’s great to see a man expressing these opinions. Too often, if a woman desires anything beyond the fulfillment of the most basic material needs (a few scraps of clothing; a roof over her head; some food) she is portrayed as “selfish” or “Westernized”.

    Granted, life is not a romance novel. But a lot of men are missing out on the best aspects of marriage by ignoring romance, tenderness and empathy.

  2. Salams,

    In your unflattering description of Eazy-E types, were you somehow adding to their negative portrayal, by highlighting their “lack of game” before Islam?

    It comes off with the implication, that a slick ability to seduce women into bed is somehow praiseworthy. Clarify your intentions here, if you don’t mind. Thanks.

  3. Men are Qawwaamoon over women by what Allah has given one over the other and what they spend from their wealth. (Qur’aan 4:34)

    Narrated Ibn Umar, I heard Allah’s Messenger saying, ‘A man is the guardian of his family and is responsible for them.’ (saheeh of bukhari)

    We hear how men quickly refer to the verse of Qawwaamoon to justify their position and rank in the home with regards to providing leadership, maintenance and protection, but this attribute also involves taking responsibility with regards to earning an income through work. Sure, women can work if there’s a need but the responsibility lies primarily, first and foremost on the man.

    Yet what are we increasingly seeing today- unemployed Muslim men. Some argue that the reason for this is increasing prejudice but this is far from being the main cause of the problem. Others argue that many Muslims do not have the necessary education- as if manual labour is no longer a legitimate job. If we seriously want to understand this problem, then let us simply listen to what we hear from fellow Muslim Sisters who observe the reality of the situation with these ‘chronically unemployed’ men.

    They will tell you that the men do not seek after work properly and in fact are lazy. Others will tell you that their men are unemployed but still choosey, refusing to work in manual labour or jobs which they consider beneath them. Others from UK and Australia will tell you that their husbands, sons and brothers are content with the practice of taking handouts from the welfare system- year after year. It is one thing to use this system for a while until one finds a job, but here we have scores of individuals who are thriving of it- having neither a sharia’ excuse for not working nor any self respect and dignity for taking out handouts while Allah has preserved their health. Some sisters have heard their men even saying ‘why should we work when we can get more money through welfare.’ This is the reality with many Muslim men today. I wonder- do they not realise the worth of Muslim honour and the substance of being men?

    And (We) made the day for livelihood (Qur’aan 78:11)

    Work is part of Islam and a part of life on Earth. One of the reasons why Allah created daytime is to allow for us to work and seek our sustenance. This is how closely work is linked with creation. For men, abandoning work during the day is like abandoning sleep during the night- A clear departure from the Fitrah of creation.

    As for the kind of work then everything is acceptable as long as it is Halaal and the person has the skills and knowledge to properly perform it. If we must look at Job types and compare them to each other then know that Allah has informed us in the Qur’aan that one of the reasons why He diversified Jobs was so that we could benefit from one another and make us of one another and divide the various tasks. Thus working in one profession or trade is Fard Kifaayah in the sense that the burden is removed from a community or society if some of the people take the responsibility. We can all imagine the disastrous effects of everyone working in one kind of job. Yet instead many Muslims are imitating the disbelievers and forming a hierarchy and cast system with regards to jobs, while neglecting the reason why Allah created jobs in the first place.

    Al-Miqdam narrated that the Prophet said, ‘Nobody has ever ate a better meal than that which one has earned by working with one’s own hands.’ (saheeh of bukhaari)

    Narrated A’eyshah, ‘The companions of Allah’s Messenger used to practise manual labour so their sweat used to smell, and they were advised to take a bath.’ (saheeh of bukhaari)

    If a hierarchy has to be stressed then let it be in accordance with the teachings from the Sunna of Allah’s Messenger, Muhammad, peace and blessings be upon him, who clearly informed us of the most elite and prestigious of jobs- one where we use our own hands. Those who work with their own hands and feel their own sweat have more right to boast about the excellence of their work than professionals or administrators. Yet the Sunna has been ignored and the hierarchy rearranged to suite the whims of the heart and the love for wealth, power and position in the fleeting life of this world.

    The best of jobs with Allah also include agriculture and trade. We have an excellent example in the companions where the Muhaajiroon worked in trade and the Ansaar worked on the land. However any Halaal job can be sought after if the person is qualified by having the required skills and knowledge.

    Abu Mas’ood narrated, ‘When we were ordered to give Sadaqah, we worked as porters.’ (saheeh of bukhaari; saheeh of muslim)

    Abu Hurairah narrated that Allah’s Messenger said, ‘One would rather cut and carry a bundle of wood on his back than ask somebody who may or may not give him.’ (saheeh of bukhaari; saheeh of muslim)

    It is not from Islam to criticise any kind of Halaal Job, refusing to do it because it is something beneath the person or something the person feels he is too good to do. If this is the attitude of today’s Muslims then what would they say about the companions who worked as labourers and porters, carrying other peoples baggage to secure a Halaal income? Would the Muslims of today look down upon these companions for performing such tasks? And what would they say about our Prophet’s words where he instructed his Ummah to cut and carry wood than to ask money from others? This is the way of the believers who strive to seek independence from creation while placing full reliance in The Creator.

    Ubaydullah narrated, ‘Two men informed us that they went to Allah’s Messenger asking for Sadaqah. He looked at them up and down, and seeking they were strong, said ‘If you wish I will give you something but there is no share in it for a rich man or a man who is strong and able to earn a living.’ (musnad of ahmad; sunan of abu dawood; sunan of nasaa’ee)

    The practice of neglecting work and taking welfare by healthy Muslim men is rejected on several counts including the fact that they are not deserving of charitable donations by virtue of their health and ability to seek work. They may be recipients of charity ‘while they are searching for work’ and ‘until they secure it’ but this practice of receiving charity while sitting idly, refusing to work or delaying finding work is something quite strange, bizarre, foreign and alien to Islam.

    Narrated Haakim that the Prophet said, ‘Whoever abstains from asking others for financial help, Allah will give him and save him from asking others.’ (saheeh of bukhaari; saheeh of muslim)

    Rather the Muslim men should seek work and place their trust in Allah. If they strive in looking for work and desire independence from others, Allah will most surely give them work and make them independent from others. This is a promise binding from Him if only the men return to correct intentions and actions.

    As Muslim Women- Mothers, Wives, Sisters and Daughters- we must help and advise our family memebers, directing them to the teachings and practices of our religion and what it means to be Men. When we look at those who have abandoned work through no legitimate excuse and those who take out welfare chronically we need to ask an important question. Are our Muslim Men- really Men?

  4. I think you should refer to these Muslim men as ‘some Muslim men’ – please dont generalise, as to an outsider this would paint us all with the same brush.

    Also not all converts come from romance-less lives, please dont generalise here either. In fact many of them go through extensive long term full-on relationships.

    Just adjust some bits to not claim ‘most’ men so and so… since there are no figures presented to back up numbers.

    But otherwise excellent article.

  5. @ abd al hakim

    By “game” I mean the ability to romance, treat a woman right and make her feel good. There is nothing wrong with “game” if it is used correctly.

    By the “Eazy-E” types I mean the ones that only think a woman is good for sex and beating her. This is what is brought into Islam

    Unfortunately, this is not understood and some think that “game” (i.e., romance) has no place in islam

  6. That is an outstanding piece, Umar, it really is. You touched the vital points very well. Many Muslim men do in fact abuse their marital rights in an alarmingly dictatorial manner. They believe that the only rights are theirs and totally ignore the God given rights of their wives, not to mention the sickening abuse of certain Koranic verses and the seemingly deliberate disregard for numerous Islamic injunctions stressing compassion, love and mercy. This shouldn’t be THAT surprising, after all, when socities are run by authoritarian and chaotic means (I’m referring to the Middle East here I can’t speak about the US), this will ultimately be reflected in the very basic unit of society.

  7. Umar,

    your choice of photos for this post is very appropriate. if these types of problems are allowed to fester, we will ALL go down with the ship.

    some say you can judge a culture based on the standing and honor given to women.

    where would we stack up?

  8. Agreed excellent post and defending of Bint Will

    In this regards, I think the non-western segment of the Ummah has a lot to learn from Western segment.

    Sister Margari Aziza Hill, look brothers too can be supportive too. It’s the child issue that was a sticking point.

  9. “I think the non-western segment of the Ummah has a lot to learn from Western segment”

    What you actually intend by this statement is, ‘the Muslims have a lot to learn from the non-Muslims’. This is because the ‘Western Muslims’ only differ from their ‘eastern’ cohorts in that they have imbibed values antithetical to Islam from day one.

    Umar, your understanding of marriage is poor; it is a relationship of power i.e. as Imam at-Tabari said, men are ‘princes’ over their wives. Note the use of absolutism- that should give you an indication of the level of power that a man has over his wife. She cannot leave the house without his permission, and she must obey him in what is permissible.

    Islam and the values that some of you seem to propagate disagree profoundly and cannot be reconciled- and the danger is that some amongst us are influenced by these pernicious ideas without realising it.

  10. My words are outer and are fair game,
    but in this instance you judge my unseen intent, which only I and Allah know or do you also have knowledge of the unseen.

    Secondly, now to clarify my intent and Allah knows best

    In this instance brother, we are NOT talking about women leaving the home and disobedience.

    We are talking about marital rape, (which my comments were directed to) or do you profess this, to be from the Qur’an and Sunnah, as well.

    The poor treatment of women in Middle East prior to Islam has been well documented. There are gaps in current Middle Eastern culture and practices that are not reconcilable in Islam, such as racism and treatment of women, many Arabs will tell you. Unfortunately, If you have an African or African-American with a dark complexion and have been to the middle east this is clear. However, sticking to the issue, in particular marital rape in the ummah is most prevalent in the Ummah amongst non-western Muslim and Allah knows best. Yes, Muslims in the west have benefited from the not having that history of cultural baggage, and have benefited from the non-muslim who have fought for equality of people.

    Often times when brother quote an Imam or Sheikh, it’s because they don’t have proof from the Qur’an and Sunnah.

    Brother, I don’t understand are you saying Marital Rape is from the Qur’an and Sunnah. Did the Prophet engage in this behavior? Brother, I don’t know, so since you’re so knowledgeable, teach me:

    Please give me the evidence for the permissibility of Marital Rape and I will correct my opinion tonight.

  11. Also in certain Muslim countries and in Turkey, women can wear hijab in public buildings.

    In America, Muslim don’t have to worry about that.

    Hence, the non-western segment of the ummah could learn from the western segment, no insult included.

  12. “you judge my unseen intent, which only I and Allah know or do you also have knowledge of the unseen?”

    Nope. The implications of what you say, based upon what you’re calling to, are clear.


    “We are talking about marital rape, (which my comments were directed to) or do you profess this, to be from the Qur’an and Sunnah, as well.”

    They are from the Qur’an and sunnah, insofar as it is possible for inadvisable (but not impermissible) deeds not practiced by the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) to be so.


    “Yes, Muslims in the west have benefited…from the non-muslim who have fought for equality of people.”

    Note the humanist shibboleth; ‘equality of people’. Snakes cannot conceal themselves for long. Fact is, brother, people are by no means ‘equal’- or perhaps we could say that they are, with the proviso that some are more equal than others.


    “Often times when brother quote an Imam or Sheikh, it’s because they don’t have proof from the Qur’an and Sunnah.”

    The words of scholars are proof in and of themselves in issues such as this.


    “Did the Prophet engage in this behavior? Brother, I don’t know, so since you’re so knowledgeable, teach me:”

    What a humbug! The Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) also never divorced, yet we know that divorce is permissible. The problem with you is that you can’t understand that while the way of the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) is better (i.e. acts such as not shouting), following all of it is far from obligatory. Actually- you do understand this fact (because you probably do shout- etc- in your daily life), but only act in contravention to it when it suits you.


    “Please give me the evidence for the permissibility of Marital Rape and I will correct my opinion tonight.”

    The fact that a wife has no right to refuse her husband’s demands for sexual congress in the vast majority of situations- and that, therefore, if she does so, he has the right to act accordingly. This is the husband’s prerogative.

  13. Everyone,

    Please ignore that wahabi guy commenting on here.

    We all know that wahabism propogated by the Saudi Arabians and the Islam preached by the Prophet are as distant from each other as are the east and west.

    Wahabi, your comments dont even count. You may quote as many Hadiths, and Ayas and Sheikhs you want, they’re all useless the moment it comes out of your mouth.

  14. “You may quote as many Hadiths, and Ayas and Sheikhs you want, they’re all useless…”

    In other words, our friend rejects aspects of the Shari’a, even when justified by evidences such as ayat, ahadith and the words of shuyukh- because he finds some aspects of the shari’ah repellent.

    Thanks for being candid, if nothing else.

  15. What he effectively tells us is:

    ‘People, don’t listen to this person! He is a wahhabi [as if these beliefs are solely those of wahhabis, which they are not], and I don’t like what he has to say- even if he has proof for it!’

    And you know what? He’ll succeed, because people reject beliefs they find repugnant, and don’t care about whether they are true or not.

  16. And the insecure amongst us, such as Umar, will not doubt reserve the choicest obscenities for me. Of course, from him I have come to expect ad hominem attacks and a sustained failure to address the contents of the arguments themselves. In fact, I could probably set my watch by him, so predictable is his reaction.

  17. As Salaamu Alaikum Everyone:

    At my masjid, they also try that business of feeding the men first. The women and children always outnumber the men. Many times, the men go through the line and take HUGE plates of food, leaving little leftover for the women and children. This is despite that we cook plenty of food for everyone. Many of us American women take our plate as soon as the food is ready. After all, we have worked hard to prepare it and the children are cranky and want to eat. The foreign sisters look at us in shock initially, but they soon follow with their children. We tell them that in America there’s a saying that goes “Ladies first” lol.

    Some of the sisters send their children through the line with the father, but what about the kids of single and divorced Muslimahs? Children don’t understand.

    If there is daleel that men are supposed to eat first, especially at the expense of women and children, I will repent and let them eat first in the future.

    I just refuse to submit to cultural practices from other countries in an American masjid that appear to have no basis in Islam.

    I have read articles about food aid to African countries where the aid workers marvel at how the men eat most of the food, leaving the women and children to practically starve.

    As to some of the unemployed brothers who are lazy or otherwise – it is amazing how some of them go around saying “kuffar this” or “kuffar that” but have no problem accepting kuffar welfare money.

    Allah commanded that our husbands are supposed to maintain us, not the government. Sometimes there is a valid reason for a family to be in the system. That of course is different.

    Great post Brother Umar.

  18. No. I’m not rejecting faith. Islam supports consensual sex in the legal fold it provides. It is not in the nature of Islam to allow forcing ones self onto their wife.

    But obviously for you, raping is fine. And i dont blame you, because you’re location happens to be the UK. Muslims in other Western countries know the maniacness of british Muslims, and how they tend to drive vehicles into airports, and how they attempt to leave bomb laden cars in civilian areas and their extreme desire to blow themselves in Tubes.

    I assume that you’re a paki. Paki culture is notorious for believing rape brings justice. Desis have a habit of raping their daughters and sisters when she doesn’t want to marry her 50 year old cousin.

    You’re attempt to justify rape is a product of your unfortunate fabric. You’re twisting Islam so it accomodates the barbaric elements of your heritage. And that is why the sub continent will never achieve the civil structure we enjoy in the West.

  19. The Wahhabi Misanthrope,

    “The fact that a wife has no right to refuse her husband’s demands for sexual congress in the vast majority of situations- and that, therefore, if she does so, he has the right to act accordingly. This is the husband’s prerogative.”

    Well there isnt any proof in that statement at all, now is there. There is a hadeeth that states that when women refure their husbands for no go reason and he goes to bed angry at her, than the Angels will curse her. If the woman refuses her husband, and he is angry about it, she will be cursed. Is there a hadeeth, that states very clearly, because as Muslims we are to leave off doubtful matters, that states a man can than force himself on his wife. Youre drawing your own conclusions about the remedies of such situations without any proof save your own “logical” deduction.

  20. I’ll give you a bit of advice Wahabi.

    If you’re wife happens to be in a non sexual mood, rather than raping her, just use your hand to jack off.

    Your hand will be the obedient slave you want women to be.

  21. Misanthrope – “One who hates or mistrusts humankind”
    http://www.thefreedictionary.com/misanthrope

    What is the value of Words/Deeds of a person who hate Allah (swt)’s creation.

    It is for a reason Muslims have been advised to take up “Nice” names (which includes your web-identity also).

    Now I don’t have to put up a list of Quran verses / Hadith or Sheikh quotes. Its so common sense.

  22. Brother Wahhabi,
    AsSalaamu Alaikum

    You still haven’t given any Qu’ranic proof or proof from Hadith that forcing yourself on a woman as her husband is legal by Islam. You still haven’t proven it. Now many have gotten on you for your so disrespectful commetns to the sister and what you seem to believe in, but where is it’s status with Islam?
    You Quote Shaykhs and what their ruling is, Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) ‘s character is the character that the Qu’ran says muslims should follow.

    You said what Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) would have done is irrelevant.
    Who was the Qu’ran revealed to?
    Allahu Allum
    Its seems as if:
    You have interpreted what man has told you Hadiths and Ayats mean.
    Doesn’t Allah know best?
    Do men who force themselves on their women fear Allah?
    Allahu Allum
    You and all of should remember brother Allah is watching.

    Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w) said in a hadith (i’m paraphrasing) you should worship Allah as if you can see Him, and if you can’t attain that level or worship then you should worship Him as if He can see you.

    Would you forcibly make your wife have sex with you and feel that Allah is watching you or that you can see Allah?

    Allahu Allum

    Allah knows and we know not.
    Do you think causing another muslim pain to please your lower desires, even when married would please Allah?

    Allahu Allum
    Allah knows best and we know not
    Alah knows best and we know not

    Allah is watching
    Allah is watching
    Allah is watching

  23. Wahhabi Misanthrope

    Giving Salaams are the right of a Muslim, if you don’t give me Salaam, can I forcibly make you, no that between a slave and Allah (ta ala) be patient and you will be given your right in the Akirah and Allah know best.
    If you work one day for me and I don’t pay you, your wages, can you then physically hurt me and take it. No, be patient, you will paid your reward in the Akirah and Allah (ta ala) knows best.
    Here’s another right, “A muslim supposed to be safe from his brother’s hand and tongue.” Hand meaning physical, if that exist between between Muslims you don’t know then what about a Muslim’s spouse. If a husband rapes his wife there is liable to be abrasions, tears, and blood. So now you violated her right and Allah knows best.
    The lesson is Wahhabi, there is a Day Judgement, where there will be total justice implemented. We can’t forcible take our rights because by doing so, you violate someone else’s right.
    Its for this reason, that the Prophet (pbuh) spoke specifically about a women, not wanting to engage in sexual relations with her husband and advised women against taking that stance but not in ONE SINGLE INSTANCE DID HE SAY FORCIBLY TAKE IT.

    BROTHER DO YOU ENGAGE IN MARITAL RAPE, IF NOT THEN WHY NOT ?

    Brother your arrogance is exceedingly high, as you change my words and then say those words you changed are clear and and you actually know the unseen intent behind them. AMAZING. At the very least, can you please says Allah knows best, when you speak to qualify what you say, for this allows for the possibly that you don’t know the unseen..

    In the previous post when asked if you could see the Propher (pbuh) engage in such behavior (marital rape) you stated,

    “No- we can’t. But that’s “irrelevant”. As long as a man acts within the law, nothing can be done about him.”

    Brother you called the Prophet’s example “IRRELEVANT” in one breath, then in the next breath you say
    “The words of scholars are proof in and of themselves in issues such as this”
    You belittle the living example of the Prophet (pbuh) and then invoke the supremency of the words of scholars as ‘PROOF IN AND OF THEMSELVES” and this is absent of the Qur’an and Hadith. Brother Allah (ta ala) has criticise the Yahudi for taking their Rabbi as Lords, with these words you wrote, how are you any different.

    “Brother this is nonsensical, scholars take their cues from the Qur’an and the Prophet (pbuh), its not what scholars say that are proofs in themselves, its the proofs they cite from the Qur’an and Sunnah.” For every scholar that chooses A as the answer there are another set that chooses B and some C and D for that matter.

    In reality what Allah (ta ala) and his messenger (pbuh) say is knowledge everything other that is conjecture. The best of the scholar are those who best understands, adhere and judge according to the words of Allah (ta ala) and his Messenger (pbuh).
    Then you say
    “What a humbug! The Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) also never divorced, yet we know that divorce is permissible.”
    This is not thought out. Of course the Prophet (pbuh) never divorced, but how do we know it is permissible, yes that right directly from the words of the Prophet (pbuh). Sunnah is both the words and deeds of the Prophet (pbuh).

    Lastly, the problem is when we memorize and regurgitate the words of scholar but fail to even look at their proofs and even if looked at, fail to understand them. The fact that we have a mountain of knowledge left from those who preceeded us does not relieve us from the responsibility of thinking.
    Brother, please think

    And not limited in just terms of the Dunya, as I agree that there is no specifically prescribed Qur’anic or sunnah based punishment in this world for marital rape. But real and total justice will be administered by Allah (ta ala) on the day of Judgement, who knows the hearts of men and the unseen.

  24. Hakim now,
    I got the sense that the brothers were trying to support the sister. But the whole flood of men telling the sister how she should feel about the child who came out of an abusive marriage and sexual violation really struck me.

    Women can also be other women’s worse oppressors. I have heard Muslim women argue that a woman could not refuse her husband. That was the Islam I was taught when I was a new convert. Then I learned more and more about women’s rights in Islam and more about Usul al-Fiqh. I am not a scholar on Islamic law, but it doesn’t seem to be sound evidence that allows a man to force his wife to have sex. Also, it is women in the ME and Africa who perform FGM, they promote the idea that women should not enjoy sex with their husband. I’m not one to blame men for all the messed up cultural practices. Women play a huge part in setting standards and norms.

  25. As-Salaamu ‘alaikum,

    In response to the idiotic and racist comment by “LDU”, none of those who were involved in the car bomb attempts last month were British. They came from Iraq, Jordan and India. Get your facts right before you spout off, jackass.

  26. Hey umar marital rape? Look bro i am somalian and i know that our women are crazy, they would kill us or cut off our sexual apparatus if we force them to have sex without them wanting to have it in the first place. I think its more of an bedioun-Arab thing to beat, smash,rape and honour kill their wives and daugthers. Ps check out on youtube to what happened to that saudi woman broadcaster[Rania Al baz -no relation to shekih ibn baz so dont get it twisted] who got beat the crap out of by her husband.

  27. Well a guy can basically find anything in the Hadith. The Wahhabi Misanthrope reminds me of previous posters who kept dishing out loads of ‘Arab Superiority’ hadiths and the opinions of the scholars who supported them. I’m sure you will probably find some bizarre hadiths making women utterly subservient to their husbands, and many mysoginist scholars who support them. I suppose some people will define ‘disobedience’ as absoloutely any act that defies any wish of the husband. As far as I know, in the farewell sermon the Prophet defined a husband’s rights over his wife as not allowing another man into the bedroom with her, and not allowing people the husband dislikes into his household when he is not around.

  28. Assalamu Alaykum
    I liked what you wrote. It was nice. Someone wrote that marriage was about Power or words to that effect. thats the problem. Men walking around thinking all you have to do is be able your wife and beat her with a stick.I was fortunate enough to never endure being forced upon while married…and thats because i believed that I couldnt refuse my husband…so if i woke up to find myself in a situation…well that was his right? Right?
    I dont believe this anymore. I feel a considerate man will be considerate with me. I do feel for the sisters who had to suffer at obnoxious thugs who took from them what they believed was their right.
    How can it be considered mercy when the woman is screaming and spitting?
    Allahu Musta’an.

  29. Well, the reactions of our friends were as predictable as I thought they would be. Firstly, I’m not a ‘paki’- and it’s quite disconcerting to see racism married to your ignorance. Although, I should add, it’s not surprising.

    Nor do I agree at all with terrorism.

    Nor do I agree with rape- which is a criminal offence with a hadd punishment, whereas (as we have established), marital ‘rape’ has no temporal punishment.

    Furthermore, I am probably the least culturally conditioned of everyone here- since I don’t affiliate myself with any culture.

  30. “Women play a huge part in setting standards and norms.”

    Bingo- and this is why, in patriarchal cultures, women are so revered (as mothers). After all, it’s a trans-historical reality- that mothers raise and teach children, and therefore inculcate certain values in them.

  31. And some of you rush to categorise me: what can he be? Culturally conditioned misogynist? Divorcee?

    Suffice to say, I’m none of the things you think I am. In fact, you all assume that I would commit marital ‘rape’- which I wouldn’t ever think of. But, if I don’t do a thing, does that mean I should forbid others from doing it?

  32. “Giving Salaams are the right of a Muslim, if you don’t give me Salaam, can I forcibly make you”

    No- but marriage is a relationship of power. Islam legitimates the power of a husband over his wife, just as it legitimates the power of a parent of his child, the power of a ruler over his people and the power of the Law above all. As at-Tabari said, men are princes over their wives. And the Law must be revered.


    “If you work one day for me and I don’t pay you, your wages, can you then physically hurt me and take it.”

    No- but that is a poor analogy. Islam gives the husband executive power over his wife- not over other men or women (within reason).


    “If a husband rapes his wife there is liable to be abrasions, tears, and blood. So now you violated her right”

    Actually, ‘rape’ in the context of our discussion means ‘coercion’, not violence. There are plenty of forms of coercion that are not violent. And by suggesting the opposite, you’re implying that a wife will resist- which she might, though it isn’t within her right to do so, just as it is not the right of a wayward child being beaten for not praying to strike his father.


    “We can’t forcible take our rights because by doing so, you violate someone else’s right.”

    No, my friend. The point is, that in most cases, taking one’s rights from another individual is the prerogative of the state- i.e. if a woman commits adultery, her punishment is the obligation of the state, not the husband (for example). However, executive power is delegated to certain individuals, as I’ve mentioned- and I see no need to repeat my argument.


    “…advised women against taking that stance”

    Actually, he (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) was far more emphatic than you suggest. He told us that the angels curse her, suggesting that it is a very heinous sin ro refuse one’s husband without valid reasons.


    “but not in ONE SINGLE INSTANCE DID HE SAY FORCIBLY TAKE IT.”

    And how do we derive the shari’ah from ahadith? Do we do so solely on the basis of what he (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) commanded? No! If he (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) explicitly ordered something, that would make it obligatory- this is usul al-fiqh. But marital ‘rape’ is not obligatory.


    “BROTHER DO YOU ENGAGE IN MARITAL RAPE, IF NOT THEN WHY NOT ?”

    No, I don’t, and never would. Your problem, and it is a common one, is that you judge me without knowing me. I was hoping for a calm, platonic discussion on a legal issue- and I knew it would never be possible.

    Marital ‘rape’ is bad because it is inimical to marital bliss. Being raped must be a very harrowing experience. In case you’re wondering, I’m not schizophrenic. Simply put, it’s perfectly possible for one to be a complete bastard without being criminally so. One can be utterly unreasonable, and still live comfortably within the boundaries of the Law. One could marry another wife without telling his previous one- and it would be perfectly legal. My point is, there is no temporal punishment for such a person- but acting in that way would make him a complete bastard, albeit a law-abiding one. The only temporal punishment for acts such as marital ‘rape’ are, amongst other things, the emotional or marital consequences- and these punishments are sufficient enough to keep most people from acting improperly. Most men are reasonable. All this time I’ve been trying to make a subtle argument, one that most people just won’t bother to follow closely enough to understand.


    Now, when the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) did not do something, does that mean it is impermissible for us to do it? When we read that he (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) never struck anyone except in Jihad- are we obliged to be the same? No- whilst emulating him is excellent, it is not obligatory in subsidiary issues such as this. Yes, we do aspire to his conduct, sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam- in the same way we hope we will never have to divorce our wives. But, does that mean that it is impermissible to, for example, divorce our wives? Of course not.

    Now, when a alim says that something is obligatory, what he is really saying is that the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) made it so, in some way or another, which is why it has more worthy of being followed than some supergatory thing.


    “This is not thought out. Of course the Prophet (pbuh) never divorced, but how do we know it is permissible, yes that right directly from the words of the Prophet (pbuh).”

    Well, here’s a newsflash for you, brother. Shari’ah is mostly derived from sources other than the literal yes/no commandments of the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam). It can be derived from his tacit approval etc, and in our case, it can be derived from the implications of his words i.e. the ‘spirit of the law’.

    Now, I hope everyone will read what I’ve said carefully, and avoid drawing hasty conclusions…

  33. I may be the only female that feels this way but unless a woman is physically ill, there shouldn’t be any reason for her to refuse her husband (unless they’re in the process of separating). When I was married to my ex-husband, both of us worked different shifts so we rarely saw each other except on the weekends. When he would get home from work, it could’ve been 4 am and if he felt like having sex, even though I was fast asleep, I was there to oblige. He never forced himself on me and even though I was asleep he never hurt me. If he had to, he would use some type of lubrication so that I wouldn’t get hurt.

    When I would get home from work, he could’ve been fast asleep, but if I wanted it I could have sex with him and even though he was half asleep he didn’t have any problems with it. Sometimes he would jokingly say that I took advantage of him but both of us understood that we may not always be in the mood to have sex at the same time but we respected each others wishes and we were there for each other when either of us had that urge. I never felt used or degraded.

    I was angry at my ex-husband once and wanted to get my point across by refusing him when he wanted to have sex and he became very angry and divorced me. He kept saying “I shouldn’t have to beg my own wife for sex” and at that time I was like screw you. But here I am now, single and raising two kids and realizing how stupid I was…

  34. Server,

    I think you hit on the head, it could be the same person speaking about Arab Superiority and Allah knows best.

    If not, he has the same M.O., by trying to give particularly distasteful cultural tendencies, an Islamic Legitimacy.

    The brother’s logic is Allah (ta ala) did not forbid it or give it a punishment, and although the Prophet (pbuh) advised women not to refuse their husband sex, the Prophet (pbuh) never stated you can’t rape your wife and he did not give a punishment so therefore its all allowable although it violates principals laid down by Allah (ta ala) and his Messenger (pbuh).

    Allah (ta) has described the Messenger (pbuh) as a MERCY TO THE ALL THE WORLD and our EXAMPLE. Allah (ta) specifically mentioned the Prophet character of making things easy. The Prophet (pbuh) warned us not make people hate good deeds. The Prophet (pbuh) is the master of etiquette. Wahabi you are a poor example of his sunnah.

    WAHABI, AT THE VERY LEAST CALL MARTIAL RAPE REPREHENSIBLE AND NOT CONSISTENT WITH THE CHARACTER OF THE PROPHET (PBUH), AS NOT TO GIVE NON-MUSLIMS VIEWING THIS SITE A WRONG IMPRESSION, OR PERHAPS YOUR TOO ARROGANT TO DO THAT AS WELL.

    DO YOU NEED A HADITH TO TELL YOU TO HAVE ETTIQUETTE ?

    DO WE NEED AN AYAT OR HADITH TO TELL US, MEN SHOULDN’T DRESS IN DRAG, DO WE NEED AND AYAT OR HADITH TO TELL US NOT ABUSE OR NEGLECT OUR CHILDREN ?

    This basically promotes lawlessness because it opens up a pandora’s box, as there are innumerable disgusting issues not specifically addressed, but violates principals of the Deen.

  35. “He never forced himself on me and even though I was asleep he never hurt me. If he had to, he would use some type of lubrication so that I wouldn’t get hurt.

    WOW… then again folks are known ot have sex with corpses SMH.

    How in the hell does one have and enjoy sex with a sleeping person?! Never mind, I see why you are single.

  36. You ignored everything I said, as I was sure you would.

    “AT THE VERY LEAST CALL MARTIAL RAPE REPREHENSIBLE AND NOT CONSISTENT WITH THE CHARACTER OF THE PROPHET (PBUH)”

    Which is exactly what I’ve been saying, had you cared to read through my argument carefully.

    My point is, an act can be reprehensible (not in the legal sense) and not consistent with the character of the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam)- but can still be permissible.

  37. “This basically promotes lawlessness”

    I’m not promoting lawlessness- I’m only stating what a person might do and still remain within the boundaries of the law. As for my personal opinion, marital ‘rape is horrible, and I don’t encourage it at all.

  38. The comment wasn’t meant to be taken literally you asshole. Tell me, how does one sleep with a person on top of them who weighs over 200 pounds???

    The point was that sometimes you may not be in the mood to do it but that shouldn’t be a reason to turn your spouse away.

  39. “I’m not schizophrenic”

    Brother the fact that you have to give this disclaimer when making your argument speaks volumes about your logic.

    “Simply put, it’s perfectly possible for one to be a complete bastard without being criminally so”

    Brother say this from the start, to add balance to your argument and to put things in their proper perspective. You were initially more defensive of the Rapist rather than the victim.

    I leave you in the best As Salaamu Alaikum.

  40. Brother I understand what your position is, you put everything in their proper perspective and now that you finished your thoughts, its more acceptable, but I am more concerned about a possible punishment in the Akirah when I meet Allah, then a temporal punishment, in which I go unpunished.

    As people went to Prophet (pbuh) admitted adultery and wanted the Hadd punishment as not to meet Allah (ta ala) with that on their back.

    So give preference to the Akirah before the wordly debate-able technical issues of Fiqh

    Lastly, I think its a violation of a women’s right, so I can’t call it within the law

  41. Your argument did not change but it was not complete, as you waited pretty late in the game to speak unfavorably of the Marital Rapist.

  42. “but I am more concerned about a possible punishment in the Akirah when I meet Allah”

    Yes, but I’m talking about what our attitude should be as humans who don’t commit this act, and can’t arrogate Allah’s judgement seat in the next world.

    And, I would never hurt my wife in that way.

  43. “you waited pretty late in the game to speak unfavorably of the Marital Rapist.”

    No. It’s just not a subject that I decided to address till later- because the discussion was about the legality of marital ‘rape’, not the status of the one who commits it.

  44. Actually the topic started in a last post, in which the sister described a specific incident of Marital rape which has left her life shattered to the point that she has no love for a child, who was product of it. It was not about legality.

    The sister needed support at that point, as she was brutually honest and has been through trauma. Its with that breath you came off as so what, the Shariah does not forbid it. Brother the sister needed counseling not engage in a debate-able fiqhi-issue. you came off as arrogant and self-righteous.

  45. Wahabi

    Are you too big to apologize to the sister Umm Will and give her sincere advice to assist her ? In the same way your have comforted the Marital rapist, by telling him, he is within the law ?

    Do you disengage now ?

    So let me see, with the debate-able technical gray-area-fiqhi issues, you speak, quote, theorize, rationalize, and justify.

    However in one single moment, to show, humility, character, etiquette and sincerity, you say nothing ?

  46. People should read the etiquettes of marriage in Islam, but how many actually do? Our Prophet told us to have foreplays and not to “fall on your wife like beasts do” and to “le there be a messenger between you and her”, when asked he said: “kisses and sweet words”, meaning before actually having intercourse. Many idiotic men just “get to the point” and ignore the woman’s feelings and wants due to their extreme ignorance. Most think (Muslim and not) that women were created for the sexual gratification of man, while that is untrue in Islam. Our Prophet said that women are men’s “twin halves”, so whatever men like in women, women would like in men. That includes being physically attractive (and not weight a friging truck-load) and smelling nice. Ibn Umar ibn al-Khattab (the son of Omar ibn al-Khattab) would be seeing cutting from his beard, the sides, grooming it and all (and he was known for following the Sunnah strictly), he was asked: why do you do that? He answered (literally I translate): I beautify myself for my wife just like she does for me!

    Without fiqh, Muslims will be no different than non-Muslims. I am sure Allah will avenge those women whose feelings arent’ taking into consideration even in bed. That description by the Prophet (pbuh) sums it all up: “women are men’s twin halves”. But women can be even ‘nicer’ to men than vice versa: a woman would fall for a bald guy, a man wouldn’t fall for a bald girl (in most cases at least). Women would sometimes end up with very unattractive men (at least men would think that such a man would not have the looks to ‘qualify’, but the man eventually does..’somehow’), and that’s because women would fall for those who are good to them, and then the man’s looks would come second, it seems. A woman would fall for a poor guy, or one from a nonprominent family or lineage, more often than a man would. But all that matters to her in the end is how he will actually treat her.

    It is true that the Prophet warned the woman from refusing the man’s wish to take her to bed, but before that….is that man who wants his wife in bed…is he like the man Islam sought to cultivate? If not, then take this fatwa from me: if the man isn’t an ideal Muslim, telling him “no” should be the least she should do and she shouldn’t worry about the angels cursing her through the night!!! With rights come duties, not only toward one’s Creator but also toward His creatures!!! The Prophet also did teach us that we shouldn’t force a woman who’s not physically or psychologically able to engage in intercourse with her husband!!! A loving husband would rarely hear the word ‘no’ from his wife, because to be together would be something ‘longed for’ by the two, the feelings will be mutual.

    The manual to it all exists, but it’s an education one has to acquire, but most people are always in a hurry for everything, including sex! That’s a human being on the other side, and the Prophet told us that “whoever doesn’t deal with mercy, he will not be dealt with mercy (by Allah).”

    Why will it take so incredibly long on the Account in the Hereafter? Because people will have messed up so much between each other, to the point that Allah will make the one who greeted another but wasn’t greeted back..Allah will make him come to Him and complain about the other person who didn’t return his greeting, so won’t men be asked for the emotional hurt they caused on their wives for having approached them sexually at the wrong time (of the month) or when she was in a bad mood? Yes, when the wife is in a bad mood for ‘it’, don’t be friging selfish and make it the end of the world that you can’t ‘get some’! Remember the many years before your marriage (if you kept chaste, especially), or remember Ramadan!!! Do something, imagine being in prision for years, anything, just anything to pass those moments, hours, days, until ‘she’ is then prepared, so what?

    I don’t know what triggered the debate in the comment’s section, I can only wonder for now. I may be simplifying the matters as I usually do, but I think it’s all in Islam: we should treat others like we want to be treated, and we should be thoughtful and be able to console ourselves if we don’t get something we want. The Arab poet said: not everything man desires for he’ll acquire, for the wind blows with that which the ships don’t want.

    No reason not to be cool in the head, even when it comes to sexual urges. True Muslims who benefit from Ramadan have in the month a real practice for controlling all kinds of urges, but it seems no body absorbs the real meaning of these acts of worship, among which sexual intercourse can be one if the pure intention was invoked. How can ‘marital rape’ be viewed by Allah who made consentual sex an act of worshipping Him???

    Muslims, learn your beautiful religion!

  47. I see ‘power of the husband’ in marriage (quwaamah, maybe, is what’s meant) mentioned here. Well, a shaikh shed a light on the true meaning of this ‘quwaamah’. His article is in Arabic, I’ll re-read it, absorb it, then paste it here, summarized maybe.

    I remember feelign that the article would make women delight and men mourn ‘their loss of what they wrongly perceived as special status and power they had over women’. No, that isn’t the case. Most people misunderstood the real meaning of this quwaamah. And it’s actually disgusting the way people (culture) has been spreading it. Some women today can do better ‘bread-winning’ than their husbands, so how can such men have ‘quwaamah’ then?

    More later. God, I don’t know where to write in this blog. I suggest Umar turns it into a discussion board where him only can start new ‘threads’ -thereby keeping the idea of a personal blog!

  48. Wahabi

    That’s the problem, when Islam is seen as a mere list of Dos and Don’t, without understanding of the principles behind the law, you may rectify your actions but not necessarily your heart and Allah knows best.

    However, rectification of the heart involves acts of humility and character like feeding the poor, helping the sick and those in need and Allah knows best. That’s why with the Law of the Qur’an Allah (ta ala) also sent the MERCY TO ALL THE WORLDS to adhere to, teach and implement the law with mercy. This is why the Prophet made things easy in, even when people who committed adultery came to him, he would turn his back to them, ask if they are crazy, drunk, telling a women to have a baby, when she returned, telling her to wean the baby. For the same reason, when a person was being stoned to death in a pit and then ran, but the people still followed him stoning him, the Prophet asked why did they do that. (paraphrasing)

    I guess that why it’s so easy to say, well that the Prophet (pbuh)’s sunnah but it’s not obligatory that we do that, again hiding behind a list of Dos and Don’t. Should we also discard sunnah prayers, tahajjud, dikhr, kindness, making things easy and, fasting on Monday and Thursday, as well.

    The point is brother if you aspire to the highest level of character and action and fall short, you still have by far exceeded that which is only requisite, whether it’s the heart or the body.

  49. <>

    No offense, but a person who is willing to tear their family apart on the spot because they can’t get a little lovin’ strikes me as the stupid one. Divorce not only hurts the adults, but more importantly, it wreaks havoc on the kids. We all understand that people have urges, but to have that little regard for ones wife and kids frankly strikes me as selfish and immature. And unfortunately we have too much of this floating around in our communities masquerading as marriage.

    These types of attitudes are repugnant. A woman who marries a man is not a prostitute to whom one has purchased the “rights”. An Islamic marriage contract is not a simple barter of provisions for sex. Unfortunately a whole bunch of us approach it that way, and even more unfortunately, a lot of our sisters are convinced that selling themselves in this manner is what our religion advocates. It is no better than prostitution, and it is not befitting of the best deen in the world.

    There are many reasons other than physical ones that one might not want to have sex at a given moment. Maybe one has emotional trauma, maybe one is simply tired, maybe a person is depressed. If we can’t have patience and tenderness, and understanding of the (non-physical) needs of our spouses, then good Lord. Are we animals? Yes, people have emotional needs too, and they are just as important as the physical. Here’s a radical idea: the next time you find your spouse unresponsive to your advances, talk to him/her and see if you can offer comfort. It will develop intimacy (of another kind) in your relationship and almost always will pay off in the physical intimacy department (maybe not right away, mind you, but it’s worth it nevertheless).

    To the sister whose situation started this thread, my heart goes out to you. I pray that you and your children find healing, and solace in the Lord of the Worlds. You will be in my du’a. No matter what people may say, our religion is not a religion of animals–may Allah guide us all aright.

  50. Others have made some good points here. Marital rape would certainly violate core Islamic principles of mercy and compassion. And it would be very difficult to imagine marital rape’without violence occuring. Even the psychological harm that is inflicted can be devastating for a woman. I don’t suppose there is any direct punishment in the Koran for marital rape, but given the established ‘Urf in many countries where it is a criminal offence if proven, I suppose there’s nothing against applying such laws in Islamic countries now is there? Rape is a form of abuse at the very least, and there are Islamic checks and balances against abusive husbands.

  51. Wahhabi Misanthrope,

    “Actually, ‘rape’ in the context of our discussion means ‘coercion’, not violence. There are plenty of forms of coercion that are not violent. And by suggesting the opposite, you’re implying that a wife will resist- which she might, though it isn’t within her right to do so, just as it is not the right of a wayward child being beaten for not praying to strike his father.”

    Except you can find a proof for beating a child who doesnt pray by a certain age, you have yet to provide a proof for forcing a wife to have sex. The hadith about the child and praying isnt a proof. That hadith was very explicit. Again you keep using your own speech and intellect which should be subservient to the Quran and hadith.

  52. “Brother the sister needed counseling not engage in a debate-able fiqhi-issue. you came off as arrogant and self-righteous.”

    We should imbibe from our birth the lesson that the Law must be revered, above the individual- the Law is all we have! Don’t you understand? Without it, we’re damned- no better than cattle. When some careless individual picks away at its strictures, the very fabric of our Religion is undermined!


    “I think Umm Will deserve an apology”

    From who? I, who have never seen her or smelled her? Tell me; was it me who had her ravaged?


    “Are you too big to apologize to the sister Umm Will and give her sincere advice to assist her ? In the same way your have comforted the Marital rapist, by telling him, he is within the law ?”

    The Law, blackened by your unscrupulous and forked tongues, is a fair maiden more worthy of being comforted than those who vainly seek to pollute her. She too would have acted within the Law if she had had recourse to a judge to procure an annulment to the marriage.

    And her grief is sufficient temporal punishment for her husband, if he has a heart.

    What use is it? These words won’t reach her- and they weren’t addressed to her in the first place.


    “However in one single moment, to show, humility, character, etiquette and sincerity, you say nothing ?”

    I’m sorry if I have transgressed the bounds of the Law.


    “Without fiqh, Muslims will be no different than non-Muslims.”

    Exactly!


    “But women can be even ‘nicer’ to men than vice versa: a woman would fall for a bald guy, a man wouldn’t fall for a bald girl”

    Humbug! Baldness is a male attribute, as is facial hair. How many women would marry a man with breasts?


    “A woman would fall for a poor guy, or one from a nonprominent family or lineage, more often than a man would.”

    Absolute rubbish. In fact, the opposite is true.


    “With rights come duties, not only toward one’s Creator but also toward His creatures!”

    Yes, but having one’s rights taken away don’t make our duties any less obligatory! A child severely beaten by his father still has no right to curse him, or refuse him any reasonable request.


    “A loving husband would rarely hear the word ‘no’ from his wife, because to be together would be something ‘longed for’ by the two, the feelings will be mutual.”

    Rubbish. Your mind is filled with non-Muslim conceptualisations of marriage, such as ‘romantic love’ (look it up in a dictionary if you’re ignorant).


    “whoever doesn’t deal with mercy, he will not be dealt with mercy.”

    Save your irrelevant platitudes for another audience. We’re discussing a very specific legal issue here, as you seem to have failed to notice.


    “having approached them sexually at the wrong time (of the month) or when she was in a bad mood?”

    Actually, according to the understanding of the ulema, a menstruating wife can only refuse her husband the pleasure of her vagina- he may fondle her above that orifice as he pleases.


    “Yes, when the wife is in a bad mood for ‘it’, don’t be friging selfish and make it the end of the world that you can’t ‘get some’!”

    Rather, since a ‘bad mood’ is far from sufficient as an excuse, the aforementioned selfishness would be entirely on the part of the wife.


    “Remember the many years before your marriage (if you kept chaste, especially), or remember Ramadan!!! Do something, imagine being in prision for years, anything, just anything to pass those moments, hours, days, until ’she’ is then prepared, so what?”

    Why wait, when sex is not only the husband’s inviolable right, but a means of satiating one’s desire that has been consecrated by the Law?


    “we should treat others like we want to be treated”

    With the proviso that the Law allows it under said circumstances.


    “and we should be thoughtful and be able to console ourselves if we don’t get something we want. The Arab poet said: not everything man desires for he’ll acquire, for the wind blows with that which the ships don’t want.”

    What man desires to, or aspires to is utterly irrelevant;
    With his rights denied, his mind will seethe and boil and writhe at its torment;
    Analogy to wind is folly when
    His heart’s desire lies servile,
    And grunts and moans cacophonous
    As though she were a devil.


    “How can ‘marital rape’ be viewed by Allah who made consensual sex an act of worshipping Him???”

    Tell me, did the sahabah (radiyy Allahu anhuma) ask their newly-captured concubines’ permission to ravage them?


    “That’s the problem, when Islam is seen as a mere list of Dos and Don’t, without understanding of the principles behind the law, you may rectify your actions but not necessarily your heart and Allah knows best.”

    I’ll tell you something, ignorant soul: the spirit of the law and its letter will never be in contradiction! The principles of the Law are merely extrapolated from the ‘Dos and Dont’s’. Hearts are the province of God alone- limbs, however, are the responsibility of the state.


    “I guess that why it’s so easy to say, well that the Prophet (pbuh)’s sunnah but it’s not obligatory that we do that”

    No, you ignorant troll! My point has ever been, one cannot be prosecuted if he does not do those supergatory deeds.


    “but to have that little regard for ones wife and kids frankly strikes me as selfish and immature.”

    What, monsieur? And your reviling of sacred Law is less profane, you think? Rather, it is far more odious. Give God His rights before you give man that which he doesn’t deserve.


    “A woman who marries a man is not a prostitute to whom one has purchased the “rights”.”

    No, she is not a prostitute by any definition of the word; and a man does not purchase her rights, as he is given them by contractual agreement between himself and the Wali of the wife.


    “It is no better than prostitution”

    Thank you for being candid, oh feminist and reviler of the Law par excellence!


    “emotional trauma”
    “tired”
    “depressed”

    None of which are even close to valid excuses when it comes to refusing one’s husband his rights. According to our legislatress besides God, there is no sin upon a woman if she refuses her husband for no reason but mere whim!


    “given the established ‘Urf in many countries where it is a criminal offence if proven, I suppose there’s nothing against applying such laws in Islamic countries now is there?”

    ‘Urf- hmmm- that’s an interesting way of following the kuffar.

  53. Being raped must be a very harrowing experience.

    I’ve never wished rape or sexual assault or molestation upon anyone.

    But sometimes, when a person goes a little too far whilst spouting off on a subject he or she knows nothing about, I’d like for them to grow an imagination.

    An imagination that does not merely pay lip-service to the notion that “rape is bad.” No. An imagination that allows you, in some part, to be there and feel the shame, and the horror.

    This horror can easily exist in a marriage – because marriage between human beings is just as imperfect as the people who are in it. Marriage does not cancel out the horror of rape, and it doesn’t make it go away, or make it into something more fluffy and benign or even, *gasp*, permissible. Marriage doesn’t make God smile down onto a bed where a wife is being brutalized by her husband, and anyone who believes that it does should really ask himself or herself what they are actually worshiping and who they serve.

    Because very definition of marriage eschews the possibility of “halal” (or however you want to call it) rape.

    And the horror may teach you how to prioritize law and Law, as in Divine Law – and the distinction between them. What you are operating through is the former, rather than the latter, no matter how you may use capitalization yourself.

    Oh, and good post, Umar. D’oh. Now I personally not only want a secure meal and roof over my head – I also want a TARDIS, but hey, in this day and age, who can be picky, right? ;)

  54. tsk tsk.. this is only out of your prejudice.
    although true is some aspects.

    No matter what you think, Arabs and those “Easterners” will have a favor upon you and the Muslims of your people.

    you lack decency in this post.

  55. Some Things are just spelt between lines, this post is only part of a pattern where you shun upon Muslims of Eastern Cultures..

    I do Like your many of your posts,, however you do lack decency in your choice of words and you hide behind courage to display it.

    betwafeeq inshaAllah.

  56. We always had a sneaking feeling that what the Wahabbi is saying is what ‘the greatest religion’ advocates.

    It is reassuring to know that there are Moslems proud enough of it to engage with the same.

    Also – it is quite amusing to see that he has in fact slayed all the regular Muslims here. None has bested the Man. My sincere congratulations to him.

  57. @ The Wahabi Misanthrope

    Do you realize the “BRUTALITY” and “FORCE” required to RAPE a woman?

    I’m talking about:

    > Physically restraining and imprisoning a woman against her will.

    > Capital Punishment.

    > Punching, kicking, body slamming, throwing, and pinning down.

    > Damaging reproductive organs, by bypassing the normal requirements the female body needs to protect it’s self from ripping, tearing, and damage.

    > Damaging the ovaries becuase the female body wasn’t given a chance to lift the uterus?

    > Emotional, Mental,and PHYSICAL TERROR.

    Are YOU trying to tell THE WORLD that ALLAH, Yal-Quddus, Yal-Malik, Yal-Raheem, Yal-Rahman, Yal- Wadood, Yal-Noor, is the G-d who authorizes this behaviour in the HIS Holy Name?

    Are YOU try to tell the WORLD that ALLAH, Yal-Hakim, Yal-Haq, Yal-Sabur, is the G-d who authorizes this behaviour in order to preserve a law as if Allah, his Emminence, is in need of a set of laws or our worship?

    Allah, Yal-Malik, said ” I am the Greatest” ” I am Greater than all that exist in the seen or the unseen”

    Allah is GREATER than what you have reduced ALLAH to.

    Allah is GREATER than a set of laws and your version of the law is beyond extreme, it’s pathological, and people who harbor such views produce dysfunctional families who continue this madness.

    HOW DARE YOU.

  58. In the Name of Allâh, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful.

    1. Say (O Muhammad to these Mushrikûn and Kâfirûn): “O Al-Kâfirûn (disbelievers in Allâh, in His Oneness, in His Angels, in His Books, in His Messengers, in the Day of Resurrection, and in Al-Qadar, etc.)!

    2. “I worship not that which you worship,

    3. “Nor will you worship that which I worship.

    4. “And I shall not worship that which you are worshipping.

    5. “Nor will you worship that which I worship.

    6. “To you be your religion, and to me my religion (Islâmic Monotheism).”

  59. I think the idiot advocating marital rape here is anti-“Wahhabi” and may not even be Muslims at all, just one well-versed with some Islamic texts and took this opportunity to try to give our religion (the greatest and the only REAL religion out there) a bad name.

    I haven’t read one full post of his, but I skimmed through others’ comments addressing him. All I can say to him is: would you want to hear your household’s women were exposed to such a treatment from their husbands? Your dear daughters one day? Your aunts? Would you have loved to know that your mother conceived you as a result of ‘marital rape’, you stupid moron????

    Islam is “baree’ minnak”, disowns you and your likes. God’s curse be on you (and by cursing you I ask Allah to exclude you from His mercy, you heartless sub-animal creature)!!!

  60. “may not even be Muslims at”
    Oh- believe me- I’m a Muslim, all right.

    “I haven’t read one full post of his”
    Thanks for following my argument closely.

    “All I can say to him is: would you want to hear your household’s women were exposed to such a treatment from their husbands? Your dear daughters one day? Your aunts? Would you have loved to know that your mother conceived you as a result of ‘marital rape’, you stupid moron????”

    No: which is why, you idiot, I repeatedly said I would never commit it myself.

    “God’s curse be on you (and by cursing you I ask Allah to exclude you from His mercy, you heartless sub-animal creature)!”

    Well, thankfully you can’t arrogate God’s right to dispense mercy as He sees fit. I’m no heartless creature; but, then again, if I was, I wouldn’t be subject to any kind of temporal punishment for it.

  61. @ Umm Amina:

    ‘Capital punishment’ is required to rape a woman? Wow- but wouldn’t that make the wanton husband a necrophiliac, not a rapist, since the dead can’t consent to anything? Or, are you just being characteristically illiterate?

    I never mentioned the use of violence- which I said was wrong, in fact. But I have to tolerate dolts like you not paying any attention to what I say…oh well.

    Since the rest of what you say is mostly prattle, I don’t think it deserves any serious treatment.

    “Allah is GREATER than a set of laws and your version of the law is beyond extreme, it’s pathological”

    Well, the problem is not so much the Law as it is humanity (which I don’t exclude myself from, obviously). If you find the Law repellent, that’s because it governs repugnant creatures such as us.

  62. Maximus

    Damn right, we would, and don’t you forget it. I for one wouldn’t think twice about chopping it off.

    And another thing, Walalo, it’s ‘Somali’ not ‘Somalian’.

    Ciao.

  63. I think that “Mass” is trying to say that Arabs (and their culture) is superior no matter how dysfunctional and that we should all emulate it

  64. I don’t know about this treatment of women that you mentioned being something to do with religion. i think its culture, not religion.
    get a peep into life in asia and you will know what I mean. The traditional people like to bully women, no matter what their religion.

  65. Nita- Not only traditional but secular minded people also bully women everyday, ask the Rappers and Hollywood studios execs
    Face it most women are born to be oppressed.

  66. No: which is why, you idiot, I repeatedly said I would never commit it myself.

    Earlier in the thread, you said that you could not tell another man what he should or shouldn’t do wherein this matter is concerned.

    So don’t be surprised then if people assume that if your daughter were being raped by her husband, you would do nothing. In fact, it would appear to be pretty obvious that you would do nothing, considering your earlier comments to Bint Will.

  67. Hey Wahabi

    Look its you number one fan. He loves you dawah, and your civil rights movement for Marital Rapist everywhere. Wow Just the example the Prophet intended for this deen ! Good Job Brother.

    Look he raves about you, you guys have so much in common !

    “Infidel
    August 6th, 2007 at 10:57 am
    We always had a sneaking feeling that what the Wahabbi is saying is what ‘the greatest religion’ advocates.

    It is reassuring to know that there are Moslems proud enough of it to engage with the same.

    Also – it is quite amusing to see that he has in fact slayed all the regular Muslims here. None has bested the Man. My sincere congratulations to him.”

    Astagfirullah
    Khalas

  68. @ Hakim: We have little in common. You two should meet up, however, since you both revile the Law that I love.

    @ Natalia: I’m not responsible for the actions of others, and neither are you.

  69. OK. You know what? Don’t listen to anything I have to say. I’m absolutely depraved, and I have severe problems. The farts of shuyukh are more worthy of being followed than my words- and that flatulation is more insightful than I could ever be anyway.

  70. As for marital rape- I don’t even know. Most of what I said came from me, but I’m so fucking screwed up, I don’t know what to do. Suffice to say, my problems are worse than 1000 bint Wills, with all due respect to the sister.

  71. And I know you’ll all itch to say ‘I told you so’. Well, my problems are so severe I don’t know what to do. Maybe I’ll commit suicide. I don’t know.

  72. This is despicable,

    What does it mean, when all the Muslim on this site reached a consensus, censoring a disgusting behavior.

    and yet one Muslim’s unrelenting advocacy to keep this despicable, Un-Islamically sanctioned behavior open for continued practice. It’s no wonder the sole supporter is Infidel!

  73. The Misanthrope,

    All these time you had talked so much about The Law and still you use foul word in your comments. Maybe it is common part of language where you live in but is not that a problem and something which The Law had prohibited?

    You so proudly use “Misanthrope” as your identity and but still strongly wants people to align with your thinking.

    Dude, “Islamic fiqh” is not a subject of debate and one-up over others. It is definitely not for the one who sign-in as a hater. A person who hate all others because he sees the world as Anti to his version of The Law.

    You have full rights to express your opinions and live by it. But please don’t use the fiqh/hadith as your arguments. Cause if you had understood them you would have used it for self-corrections rather than correcting others.

    Now, please don’t come up with that “no one is perfect”. If you think you are not perfect in deen, then its better for you not to talk about Fiqh. Just speak plain English.

  74. Wahhabi- Why are you wasting your time with these fools are you dumb enough not to figure out by now most of these bloggers are either secularists or post modernist muslims.

    They[possessing a screwed up aqeedah and methodology] believing that a proper islamic marriage should function like a doctor’s office where the husband should set up a appointment with his wife to have sexual relations.

    And even he forces her without the use of physical violence or tries to speak to her in kind words, as the Quran and sunnah states. she is somewhat all the sudden threatened and entitled to call her lawyer for a subpoena or call the police on him.

    I would like to ask a question to everyone, if your wives or husbands didnt want to have sex at all would you guys still have the same love and affection for them? i guess not.

    So what Omar and rest are stating that we should all be Kofi Annans when we deal wth our women., and our homes and sex lives should run like the United Nations.
    P.S@-SEXUAL DEMOCRACY

  75. Maximus,
    so you think that if Muslims have dialogue on any subject and doesn’t quote a Hadith or verse they become secularists?

    And foul speaking rampants who had created their own opinions about Hadiths & Fiqh issues are the only Muslims.

    No wonder you had made every other guy with long beard and turban your Shuyukh.

  76. “No, they just TAKE IT because the hadith says that this is their right to do so as if the woman is a piece of property”- hey umar if these women dont like their situation they can leave.Allah [swt] has allowed divorce for the muslim women, you know that.

    Sorry to say this but i am pretty sure there are women out there who enjoy this kind of treatment. its a known fact that some women ESPECIALLY IN THE WEST get a turn on when they are physically or emotionally abused.

    You should also ask a another question.

    Why the hell didnt they ask thier peers or the local imam or scholars, on how is the charactor of the brother they are about get married to?

    Because just like men, women are horny or even more, and everyone rushes to get married to have halal sex without looking at one single aspect, what happens after the sex is done.

    I think women who are fed with their husbands or dont have any more affection and love in their hearts. Because of whatever reason tend to believe that every time their husbands think that they are making love to them. they[ women] get this mindset of thinking that they are basically getting raped.

    And they will never stand up for their rights or leave opperssive parnters,because they dont wantt to, and the billion dollar questions why should they? Most of them would rather get marital raped than leave their comfort zone. really when you put in perspective its a matter of Priorities rather themselves.

    And as Umar said “Marriage is a business contract”

  77. Subhan @- first of all i dont have a long bread or a turban nor am i a shekih nor did i pronouce takir on everyone in this forum. i am onlying stating the fact that most of you all, dont want to take the quran and hadith literally.

    Nor do want to accept the ijma of sahabah or ulamaa on this issue. Most of you have taken your intellects[aql] over the texts[naql], with is harram period.

    And yes i am a follower of the literallist mathab of abu dawud and ibn hazm and now you wonder why i express my views like this.

  78. Maximus,

    Your all these opinion about Women may be true, but only to the extent of those women with whom you had any association or came to know of.

    It is definitely not true for other & majority of the Women.

    In our region where Women had been suppressed for ages, it is no surprise to come across unapologetic morons who blame women for every martial disputes (women are blame for even if a baby girl is born or no child is born) .

    But I guess now, such species exists everywhere in the world.

  79. Subhan @- i too dont quote from quran and hadith, by the way many of the bloggers in here have this secular thinking. Are good in cut and pasting hadiths and quranic verses of their own chossing in only to advance their corrupted desires and illogically arguments.

  80. Subhan @- May i ask which region do you come from? and most of women i refer to are about 100 million of them in arab nations who love money over their lord and themselves, That includes their useless husbands.

  81. Maximus Dude, You got that wrong.

    I won’t say “We” and speak for others, but I am not a follower of “a literallist” and I am definitely not oblige to accept hadith/fiqh from such a person on forums whose character is not impeccable.

    For me, Internet Ghosts are no Shuyukhs and their constant Volleys of Hadiths / Fiqh is definitely a nuisance.

    Alhamduillah, I always pray that Allah(swt) guide me in every matter, and I would definitely check with a person whom I personally know & trust, then a Web user of whom we are not even sure whether he is standing firm on his daily prayers.

  82. Subhan@-
    ”User of whom we are not even sure whether he is standing firm on his daily prayers”. good then you dont blind follow, which nobody is asking you to put your trust on anyone in the internet.

    a-But the question in hand is is why is that many muslim marriages are failing?

    b-And if its the husband’s fault why are these women still clinging and producing children to increase their husband’s bloodline rather than to cut it off and leave[divorce]?

    Unless they cant because of reasons, they have no power over and never will.

  83. Maximus,

    Why are you getting involved in all this? Walal, this is not our culture so just leave well alone.

    Somali women are certainly no victims of domestic abuse. It used to be that if a Somali man physically, or emotionally abused his wife he’d be made to pay a hefty fine (hal?) -that is if he was lucky enough not to be clubbed to death by the wife’s brothers, cousins, clansmen and others.

    To just see how different our culture is from that of South Asian Muslims, did you know that their women pay dowry to their men? LOL. That is unheard of in the Somali community -it’d be too alien to even contemplate for a Somali man and anyway, he would become the laughing-stock of the village.

  84. they[ women] get this mindset of thinking that they are basically getting raped.

    Wow, man. Nice strawman there. Now please get your definition of rape straight.

    Bint Will can’t have a relationship with her daughter because of what happened. That’s what real trauma does. Real trauma is not the product of a silly little “mindest” you have substituted for real abuse so that you can sleep better at night.

    There are women who make up shit (Duke Lacrosse case – perfect example), but you are out of your mind if you think that the majority of them come forward with their stories, publicly exposing their humiliation, and getting scorn from “nice” guys like you because they are spoiled little bitches who “think” that they’re getting raped.

    Maybe that TV personality in Saudi, whose husband went to jail for nearly destroying her, “thought” she was being abused as well, huh?

    Guess some people will do anything to deny the facts. I suppose it does help, in a way. If you don’t deny the facts, you may face the unpleasant reality that this could happen to your daughter, your sister, or just a woman at your house of worship.

  85. Saggal,
    Not sure why u r attacking other Muslims and the culture of their land.
    Every place/culture has pros/cons, and if I had to dig-up Somali culture then you can be pretty sure to find “many a jokes”.

    But I won’t take you up as my teacher and neither do I have a “Cultural Pride” which is most often based on false notions or unjust practices.

    I care more about the present circumstances and maybe it would do good for you too to look at Somalia’s present “state-of-affairs”.

  86. Saggal-Iunderstand but we [somalis] must fight these arabs invaders because everyday especially in the south of somalia. there is creeping arabization ocurring among our people.

    The sad part is that most of ulama and common folk, are falling into believing that somalis are part of this so called great part of the Arab nation.

    While our culture is losing its ground among the youth because all they see is tribal trash talk that dont help in either repeling interior and exterior enemies of our Nation.

  87. yeah and then u can get back to the golden age of “clubbing men to death” for emotionally hurting a women and take pride in such a culture too …. amazing.

  88. “…just want to come in and ram for two minutes…”

    Help:if this kind of behaviour DOES include emotional attachment, is this still considered “marital rape”?

    Assalaamu alaykum,

    The quote above describes our encounters. I have never refused my husband his marital rights – even if I didn’t want to/feel like it, I would comply. This is only fisabeelAllah. I do not think that ‘not in the mood’, ‘tired’, or ‘depressed’ are reasonable excuses either, sorry, though love, mercy, compassion and understanding, I believe, should exist between spouses. In fact, if he wants his ‘rights’ and I have a headache or am really tired etc he offers help and leaves it for another time. He loves me, his (other) behaviour tells me this (e.g. jewelry, holidays, chocolates and flowers-his surprises, not my asking), however when it comes to sexual relations, it is forceful although I have always consented-even if I am on the back of a camel or at the oven, so to speak. Meaning, his force is not because of my refusal. I am really confused. To do ‘it’ the ‘romantic’ way, he cannot achieve an erection. I (a Western woman & a convert) do not enjoy his forceful way (contrary to Maximus’ opinion that many women in the west enjoy/prefer this:”its a known fact that some women ESPECIALLY IN THE WEST get a turn on when they are physically or emotionally abused.”). Sorry but no, akh, I just get vaginitus.

    I automatically struggle in protest to the forcefulness (i.e. he’s hurting me by holding my wrists or my ‘nonpreparation’) not to the act of sex itself. Recently I have learned to stop struggling in able to (hopefully) lessen the force (which it does a slightly).

    I used to think that this way of his was related to his jahil days when he would watch porn however, upon discussion, he told me that culturally (he is Syrian) and it is considered shameful to ‘love’ a wife and it is not known to have foreplay-though he often tells me he does love me. Men in his family are often called “shamey” if they are “caught” being romantic with their wife (they all love their wives but they would never admit it) and will make public displays of machoness (to show they are the boss around the house). I think a kind of “madonna/whore” complex exists as he is often unable to have intercourse face to face with me. Women in Syria (from what I’ve heard) are generally respected and not treated like second-class citizens (i.e. in the above example of husband walking ahead while woman struggles with heavy bags-this would NOT happen between Syrian men & women). I have explained that his way is not from Islam (in Islam we are told men should not come to their wives like animals) and he agrees but says he can’t do it any other way. So this is a psychological problem on his part; he is not ‘just’ taking his rights.

    I don’t know why I need a label for this-is it ‘rape’ or not? Would my husband be considered a punk? Thus far, I’ve been patient, should I continue to be so…? How patient should I be with his ‘problem’ as it leaves bruises on my flesh? Or am I the one with the problem-not being patient enough?

  89. Maximus,

    I hear you brother, unfortunately, I long a go gave up on Somalia. Too much sickening stuff has happened in that part of the world. Let’s pray they never find oil there.

    The loyalty given to the “Clan” is of course a curse on all Somalis -but what to do?

    Although vehemently opposed to Clan politics myself, I am nevertheless a proud Northern Is-Haqi girl and I hope the Southerners will one day get their house in order, just like we have done in the North.

    “The sad part is that most of ulama and common folk, are falling into believing that somalis are part of this so called great part of the Arab nation.”

    What tosh. It’s nasty propaganda. The Somali are ancient people who have lived in the Horn for about 10,000 years BC, older than even the oldest civilization of ancient Egypt which developed only about 5,000 years BC .

  90. Subhan

    Are you talking to me? You are so incoherent it’s hard to follow you. But I’ll say this:

    1. Somalis are the first to tell you they have nothing to be proud off.

    2. We are Not trying to be anybody’s teacher -your words, my mouth.

    Do you take everything so literally and are always so uptight?

    Finally, what have I said that you disagree with?

  91. THis is the last response for the next few hours as i am only human i need to sleep.

    Natalia @- No offence but i think you are living in fantasy world, to think that in this day of age people dont make shit up is totally unreal. You know the lengths women and men would do create and recreate such emotionally tales about one’s suffering and loss similar to poets of the middle ages who would recite poetry of great praises to kings and princes’s to recieve their bounty. Even if they were sincrere or not.

    Now questions will arise how is it that, i Maximus can be so cold hearted? the answer is very simple, no one would write in a open blog about her daughter getting raped by whoever. And unless it is to wave the sympathy card or to make this blog much more exciting to participate.

    i dont know and maybe if it happened to Bin Will daughter . No disrespect its still a rare case and anything that is rare doesnt cut it according to my rational principles.

    As for the martial rape thing- honestly i have never met anyone who express these views about this type of rape nor i ever will because it doesnt exist therefore it isnt considered rape just spousel abuse or domestic voleince

    First of all any marital rape case would be thrown out of court, unless the judge is one of those liberal or left over leftist trash of the 60’s-70’s era hippe LSD days.

    Maybe the wife might have chance in this aspect. But if you must know that victims of rape cases must present evidence that are beyond reasonable doubt and that means it must be based on solid grounds not on emotional trauma which can be easily dealt with by the couple meeting up with a marriage Counselor or get divorced it is easy as that.

    And the last point i make is who are the witnessess to such a rape,the kids, family dog or maybe the milkman. because in reality there is no witness. Its the husband’s word against the wife’s

    Come on people give it a rest let rape be defined according to the laws that are enshrined in both traditional legal systems such islamic law or secular laws that are based on constituitons of nations and not based on our desires, whims or politically leanings .

  92. Saggal: Finally, what have I said that you disagree with?

    Not sure. Maybe on a public blog which is discussing a common issue among Muslims, two people getting into the “us & them” arguments.

    To re-qoute:
    “Why are you getting involved in all this? Walal, this is not our culture so just leave well alone.”
    “I understand but we [somalis] must fight these arabs invaders…”

    Whats the point of these for this post?

  93. Subhan- i think you are islamist may have islamist leaning as you are against all sorts of expressions of national pride for one’s land not government.

    Because to much government’s is really more of a health hazard in today’s age. Maybe government’s should act as more of a night watchmen than anything else.

    And beside scultural laws are greater than laws of states and kings.
    And Subhan makes somalia diffrent than other failing states is our culture it is our cloak to success than a protective shield of the state. That how will we were able survive all this time.

  94. If you call a person who is against cultural pride a Islamist, than I am a very much that and I don’t see anything wrong to be one.

    Today you may be against an Arabic speaking Government tomorrow it would be North v/s South. And Nations built on the base of Culture can keep on disintegrating till every village & province is fighting with the other.

    Look at Iraq to see Somalia’s (or Sudan’s) political future, now when there is no ruler (even an unjust one) the regional Cultures are used to divide the nation. Where has their National pride gone? Why now Iraq is not one but 3 nations (or possibly more).

  95. Sorry to burst your bubble Maximus, the Muslim community(those who needed to know, as I am not seeking pity so those who have come into my life afterwards will never know unles they know me by this name, yet I will not entertain them any further details because it’s not for them to discuss being they can’t do anything) has the proof, the police has the proof, the hospital has the proof, my former employer as well co-workers, and had you read my previous post you would have known this man was removed from the home several times.

    He REFUSED to divorce me and DENIED my right ot a khul, as did the Muslim men in the community at the time. Islam gives us the right to divorce, I had brusies on my body – perhaps I’ll post them in order to satify your doubt, still the imam refused to grant my divorce.

    Yes, I did ask about him, I was told, “MASHA ALLAH HE IS A GOOD BROTHER!” If I told you his name, I bet 90 percent of you here would know him and say the same thing. He is a good brother, business man, wealthy family, behind closed doors he’s a monster (as are a lot of our brothers. I’ve consoled my sisters married to “pious” Mashallah good men.

    I will not argue with you, as I know the reality of my situation, more importantly Allah knows, Being that you are a somalian (of the people who still practice FGM), your words are like ashes…worthless. The harsh truth is Africans are very misogynist. I deal with them a lot at the masjid, they stay away from because they say I have a bad mouth and they don’t like my tone.

    A sister mentioned earlier, her husband had to use lubricants. If a woman is in the mood for sex, her vagina will naturally act as a lubricant. Being mad with your husband and being abused are two different things.

  96. “Being that you are a somalian (of the people who still practice FGM), your words are like ashes…worthless”

    Bint Will,

    What has FGM in Somalia, or any other parts of Africa got to do with your problems? People in Somalia have worked very hard to eradicate this barbaric practice. The way you brought it up here is really illogical, it would be like me saying to you that, well, you are the descendant of slaves after all and so perhaps deserve no better than you got. Illogical, isn’t it?

  97. The Wahhabi Misanthrope, there is no need to be sorry. You are entitled to your thoughts.

    Saggal, he mentioned he is Somali as if they are known for kind treatment of women. If they are, they brothers in the DC metro area must be the minority, they are the most vile I’ve ever met. FGM is still praticed by those people, so how can they be kind to women while mutilating them?

  98. As-Salaamu ‘alaikum,

    Bint Will: it is usually Somali women who practise FGM. This is well-known; the people who usually do it to little girls are elderly women. And the practice is dying out, both in Africa and in the west.

  99. Good point Yusuf. I read a poll somewhere that showed a large majority of Egyptian mothers want their daughters to have FGM.

    It is a cultural thing, and it isnt just Muslims, Christians in Africa do it as well.

  100. Bint Will,

    What Yusuf Smith says is unfortunately all very true, elderly women are to blame for this most unIslamic of practices, not men. I know a countless number of women working day and night to stop this practice and as I understand, only elderly ladies seem keen for their little grand-daughters to go through it. Somali men, in the past tended not to have an opinion on the matter and are now opposed to it. The biggest problem is that it’s kept so hash hash that most men would not even know if it happened to their kids. But it’s a practice that’s dying out with the older generations.

  101. Wa alaikum as salaam wa ramatu Allah

    I’m pleased to hear the practice is dying out… Where are the women learning this from? Why aren’t the men speaking out against this and allowing their daughters and sisters to be butchered. THis is no different than a sister who covers referring to a sister who doesn’t cover as a piece of open candy. It’s no secret women are our own worst enemies… we dehumanize ourselves to a such a level words cannot describe. A few months back a sister was happy she was a virgin on her wedding night. She sickenling wrote her husband recieved an uponed can of soda (that disgusted me, but I guess I am not used to be equated with animals and objects, so while I get the point she is attempting to make, I can’t hi-five her. We are humans PERIOD. Once our men recognize us as such, we’ll get treated better…. If our husband comes to us, and we are dry, he won’t break out the lubricant which is not good for our sensitive vagina, he’ll back off because the lack of wetness means, “baby I am not ready for you.” Our men wouldn’t fall on us like savage beasts, they’d be gentle and more attentive to our needs, etc…

    Unfortunately, the US had it first case of FGM. An Ethiopian man mutilated his 2 year old daughter….I will be happy when this barbaric practice no longer exists.

  102. Yeah well if one insists on treating the wife like a pleasure hole and the marriage as a medium for sex, then its no wonder marriages are seen as death traps by women and would rather stay single than get caught up in something as dire as that

  103. Some of the responses to this post and the Professor Habeeb post were just incredibly disgusting not to mention depressing. Depressing that there are probably large numbers of people that still think like Maximus in the 21st century.

    And I’d just like to add that the excuse I’ve read from some of the commentators here that “romantic marriages” are western, unislamic practices really seems to be rather lacking. I’ve read for myself Islamic stuff and in blogs from muslims themselves that Muhamad treated his wives with respect and did fun romantic things with them. So really what you mean when you say “romantic/love marriages” are unislamic and western is that Muhamad was conducting himself in an unislamic manner and should have been reprimanded for his disgraceful, western behavior. Nice to see you that you apparently know more than him

  104. My mentor recently told me that the struggle against gender oppression is long and hard. Insha’Allah we can work in some capacity to correct wrongs in our communities:

    New Book on Domestic Violence & Muslim Families
    CHANGE FROM WITHIN
    Diverse Perspectives on Domestic Violence in Muslim Communities

    Edited by Maha B. Alkhateeb and Salma Elkadi Abugideiri

    Peaceful Families Project. 259 pages. 2007.

    Visit http://www.peacefulfamilies.org to purchase ($39.95).

  105. @a.m.: You’re a fool. I used the phrase ‘romantic love’, and emphasised that anyone who didn’t understand this concept should try to look it up.

    And, since it can be inferred from your post that you’re a Muslim- can you show some respect? Our Prophet is not just called ‘Muhammad’ like some Tom, Dick or Harry you meet on the street- he is Muhammad (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam).

    And, since you seem to think that morality advances with the march of time- go stick your head in a toilet. You lack the moral paradigm of a religious believer, let alone a Muslim.

  106. Blah blah blah Wahhabi. You’re posts and your blog have demonstrated that you’re kind of crazy, suffer from some kind of mental break with reality and are incredibly rude so please get a grip and get some psychological help for all our sakes. You have major issues

    Why exactly do you think everything is all about you btw? I write one comment and from that you somehow infer that a. I’m muslim (and from the way I wrote my comment I think its pretty clear to anyone with half a brain that I’m not) b. my comment was responding to your “romantic love” term (which it wasn’t) c. my comment was somehow aimed at you (which it also wasn’t).

    FYI, my comment was directed at those who referred to an Islamic marriage as being a mere business transaction and anything else (whether it be love, romance, fun) being unislamic. And now that I’m thinking about it that also goes for your “romantic love” idea which I really don’t remember reading until you mentioned it just now.

    And yes, I do think certain moral concepts do advance with the ages. Not all, but definitely some and that includes the role of women in marriage. Its why slavery and concubinage (which is essentially sex slavery and sanctioned rape of women) are now considered morally reprehensible actions. Its why men are no longer allowed to marry young girls in developed countries, men cannot have sex with boys (which was quite common in all major ancient civilizations including the Islamic Ottoman empire might I add), and FGM and honor killings are all recognized by normal human beings as morally barbaric practices just to name a few whereas in the past these were all perfectly acceptable actions. All these things still go on, but at least they are recognized for what they are.
    And your and some of the other commentors antiquated views of marriage and sex are also what people might have believed 1000 years ago but these ideas have also advanced (in a good way might I add and for the betterment of women everywhere imo)

    Great post Umar btw.

  107. Bin will @-”Being that you are a somalian (of the people who still practice FGM), your words are like ashes…worthless.

    How dare you insult and belittle this ancient custom of the people of the horn.

    This tradition has been alive for thousands of years and nobody complained about nor criticised it, so why now?

    Before you start pushing this vile western propoganda to make me feel bad or back away from delivering my devastating critiques on you and Omar post i’ll offer one timely advice on debating with someone.

    You should instead of attacking one’s own culture, try to investigate and bring up logical arguments instead of using emotion to lay a case.

    And besides before you turn on a AYAN HIRSI on me, remember if the somali women felt that this tradition was harmful to them why didnt they protest about this issue a long time ago.

    “your words are like ashes…worthless.” One’s words or opinions are not worthless and you Bin Will should respect yourself in dealing with others in this blog. if you feel that i insulted you fine… but try next time in focusing on producing critiques on my responses rather than insulting a whole society.

  108. Its sad to see that most commentators have fallen into the abyss of stupidity fr rather than speak through attributes of sanity and logic.

    Listen up fools there is no such thing as marital rape. and i challege anyone to bring evidence of if such a rape actually occurs in muslim societies today.

    Its the right of the man to have sexual relations with his wife, what else is she there for, besides the companionship offcourse. And if she refuses she is trangressing against her lord and her husband, so tell me umar and the rest of you why do you declare war on the quran and sunnah in such light.

    As for the so called FGM its called female circumcision you mumbling fools and i am not from the one’s who blind follow the western media classification of this practice.
    And its a known prophetic sunnah to both circumcise Men and women.

    Now the medical affects of using unhygenic standards in performing the circumcision can be questioned, but dont undermine the tradition

  109. “As for the so called FGM its called female circumcision you mumbling fools and i am not from the one’s who blind follow the western media classification of this practice.
    And its a known prophetic sunnah to both circumcise Men and women.”

    Based on what I’ve read and heard virtually all credible and reputable Islamic scholars have voiced the opposite of what you stated above. But that’s okay, I’ll take your word for it. They are probably following western media classifications blindly and have no idea what they are talking about. All those years in islamic universities will do that to you I guess.

  110. “As for the so called FGM its called female circumcision you mumbling fools and i am not from the one’s who blind follow the western media classification of this practice.”

    Maximus, please tell me the above comment is a malicious joke -the sort that only Horn people (and those that run the British Public Transport system) seem capable of.

    It is exactly that -FGM. I hope you are not confusing the lesser form of mutilation (so called sunnah) that takes place in some parts of Yemen and Egypt with the horrendous practice that used to be common in rural Somalia, Ethiopia and other parts of sub-Saharan Africa where 99 year old uneducated ladies with cataracts in their eyes thought it was a brilliant idea to drive 12 six-inch long thorns into six year old girls private parts without even anaesthesia.

    Who in Somalia still refers to this as their culture? Certainly not anyone in the North (Somaliland) where I come from -if the Southerners are still doing this to their children why am I not surprised? 17 years after we helped you lot topple Siad Barre you are still at each others throat.

  111. I must confess this gets better as it gets bigger.

    The number of people who are duped by this cult is truly a wonder.

    To Maximus – You my friend are on a winning wicket here. Slain indeed!

  112. Salaams Sidi Umar,

    I’ve observed 3 generations of Muslim marriages in India and here in the UK at first hand; with the greatest respect, I really don’t recognise this picture of Muslim marriages as a loveless sham.
    As for Muslims being unromantic it’s just not correct. Have you considered the whole corpus of Muslim literature on love and emotion in Muslim poetry in Urdu, Persian and Arabic? This is not a good thing but I cite this evidence to show how far off the mark this depiction of Muslims is: in India, if you want to be a male heartthrob in Bollywood you pretty much have to be a Muslim. Being Muslim and being considered romantic are closely associated in India.

    In Western societies there is a disproportionate emphasis on the male-female sexual relationship -sometimes to the exclusion of other relationships, such as with ones parents, siblings and friends. I hope we don’t replicate this among Muslims.

    Let me end with a poem from Mevlana Jalaludeen Rumi on Marriage:

    This Marriage – Ode 2667

    May these vows and this marriage be blessed.
    May it be sweet milk,
    this marriage, like wine and halvah.
    May this marriage offer fruit and shade
    like the date palm.
    May this marriage be full of laughter,
    our every day a day in paradise.
    May this marriage be a sign of compassion,
    a seal of happiness here and hereafter.
    May this marriage have a fair face and a good name,
    an omen as welcome
    as the moon in a clear blue sky.
    I am out of words to describe
    how spirit mingles in this marriage.

    Kabir Helminski “Love is a Stranger” Threshold Books, 1993

  113. The scorn that some Muslims have towards love is clearly weird because in Islam love and beauty are not repulsive. Arabic poetry and literature are bursting at the reams with odes to love, affection, and compassion to name but a few.

    But whats happened now is there’s a morality clampdown on “love” and anything resembling that by some Muslims in an attempt to deflect it away from the young ‘uns. For fear of should the impressionable youth become “enticed in its lure and indulge in sin” That says a lot more of the ideology and understanding of sex in this day and age rather than Islam’s POV on it.

    Most see marriage as a medium for sex, since thats how its advocated and presented. Someone says “im having improper thoughts” the usual response is “brother/sister, you should marry asap and make thigns halal” instead of “you should address your nafs”. When you begin to focus on sex at the mention of marriage rather than companionship the worth of marriage is nothing more than a one night stand.

  114. LOL. I was going to actually reply to Maximus, until I saw the defense of the custom of mutilating female genitals.

    Well hey, the U.S. has a few “ancient” customs of its own – slavery of black Africans among them, but you don’t see many people, aside from the KKK, protesting the demolition of that “‘venerable” institution.

    No point in carrying on a conversation about rape with people who think that mutilation’s awesome. This is just hilarious now. You ought to be on FOX News.

  115. Maximous writes:

    “And its a known prophetic sunnah to both circumcise Men and women. ”

    Care to share the hadith with us?

  116. @Maximus:

    “Listen up fools there is no such thing as marital rape. and i challege anyone to bring evidence of if such a rape actually occurs in muslim societies today.”

    I’m with Natalia that responding to you, someone who thinks mutilation is Islamic and there’s no such thing as marital rape, is beneath the dignity of sane people. Regardless, since you proposed a challenge that’s not all that difficult to meet, I’ll tell you of one particular case (of the many I know), where the lady’s “Muslim” husband beat her savagely while she was 7 months pregnant (his excuse: she was late with the dinner) and then as she tried to flee, threw her on the ground, held her down, and savagely raped her. She had the medical report and the gashes to prove it. Oh and he was also 50 years her senior.

    You’re telling me this is Islamic b/c it was his “right” to have sex with her? Or maybe because she liked it and wanted it and later made it up? Please. You’re a disgrace.

    By the way, I’m talking about an African couple, living in Africa, not Arab or Desi, if that makes any difference. Nor is their story all that uncommon; we only know of the ones from those women who had the courage to flee.

    I’m hoping for your sake that you are young so you have time left in your life to see a few things before you spout off. Grow up.

  117. Salamu’alaikum

    As a Somali, it saddens and embarrasses me, to know that we still have some muslims that condone this barbaric act (FGM). As Br. Yusuf pointed out often times it is in fact the women, that continue this practice. A proper and sound Islamic and Secular education is the only key to eradicating this practice.

    Sr. Saggal….after reading your last post, it saddened me to read your comment about Southerners. In and earlier post you made a comment that you “gave up on Somalia a long time ago”……although vehemently opposed to Clan politics myself…”

    Shortly after Saggal you basically insinuated that it’s them ie. the “Southerners” that are continuing the practice of FGM…., and not us the North. By stating that it’s the “Southerners that are still at each other’s throat.” You’ve clearly stated your “true” stance on Clan politics

    It’s sad because sister all the goodness the Dawah you were doing to muslims, and non-muslims on this blog about FGM….completely went out the window…with your own bias.

    All Somali’s irrespective of tribal affiliation, must stand up with one collective stance…against FGM…but more importantly against this despicable war in Somlia.

    It’s been stated that that one of the Signs of the Day of Judgement….is when a group of people from the same country, speak the same language, have the same culture and same religion…..are at war. And sadly Somalia is one of the ONLY countries in the world that fit’s all of these criterias.

    I pray that Allah can rid the ignorance within ourselves……so that we can call ourselves muslims first, and follow the true teachings of this Deen.

    Wasalaam

  118. Some people here clearly need to take al-Maghrib’s “Fiqh of Love” courses… and listen to alllll the lectures on how the Prophet (SAW) was a romantic man… Hisham al-Awadi’s “Marital Arts” is excellent.

    BTW, for the sake of everyone’s sanity, I say ignore Wahhabi Misanthrobe.

  119. Dudette, I’m sure childbirth or something like that must have addled your brains. Ask Yasir Birjas about marital ‘rape’, and I’ll be sincerely surprised if he doesn’t give the same answer as me, albeit in a different manner.

    Last time I checked, insanity wasn’t contagious. And so what if I’m just a little insane? There’s nothing wrong with being insane. It doesn’t mean my arguments don’t have substance to them. It just means, in an effort to refute my arguments, you resort to ad hominem attacks.

    And Sh Walid Basyouni’s talk on the Prophet (sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam) having a loving relationship with his wives and being romantic has no relevance whatsoever to a discussion on the legality of marital ‘rape’.

  120. from your post it seems like every other muslim family from back home should be dysfunctional. thank god that’s not the case and quite a bit of the muslim world when it comes to family life is quite stable. UNLIKE in the US. as we can see, family and marriage life is basically eroding.

  121. I shall respond with short refuations on all this idiots out there.

    Natalia@-“the U.S. has a few “ancient” customs of its own – slavery of black Africans.” this type of analogy of equating between FGM and slavery is highy pathetic.

    Slavery is to make humans subservant to other humans based on race., circumcision is traditional custom just like baptisim on child by a priest, its cultural and it has somewhat of a religous ruling to back it up.

    So please educate yourself on the subject before you make up lousy conclusions,if you have trouble just google islamic circumcision it might just help.

    “You ought to be on FOX News”- its Faux news do a spelling check, and yes they would never hire me because i am a Libertarian. and besides they[faux news] are boring to watch.

    JA@-”this marriage, like wine and halvah’-why are you quoting -Rumi anyway this so-called great sufi poet wasnt even a muslim at all and his poems are full of Invitations to grave worship, union with creator and outright praises of homosexual lifestyles.

    So please consider reading the Imam Ibn Hazm book The ring of the dove. on his excellent analysis on the different types of love and its conditions on society.

    Saggal@- Are you playing Clan poltics in this blog, first all its your people in the the north of somalia that supports and pratices this so called- FGM not the south. We are more civilized people we let our women do what ever they wish as long as they dont get in our way.

    Abu sinan@- I dont have the hadith on me right now but when i do get the proof and send to you ASAP

  122. I shall respond with short refuations on all of you out there.

    Natalia@-“the U.S. has a few “ancient” customs of its own – slavery of black Africans.” this type of analogy of equating between FGM and slavery is highy pathetic.

    Slavery is to make humans subservant to other humans based on race., circumcision is traditional custom just like baptisim on child by a priest, its cultural and it has somewhat of a religous ruling to back it up.

    So please educate yourself on the subject before you make up lousy conclusions,if you have trouble just google islamic circumcision it might just help.

    “You ought to be on FOX News”- its Faux news do a spelling check, and yes they would never hire me because i am a Libertarian. and besides they[faux news] are boring to watch.

    JA@-”this marriage, like wine and halvah’-why are you quoting -Rumi anyway this so-called great sufi poet wasnt even a muslim at all and his poems are full of Invitations to grave worship, union with creator and outright praises of homosexual lifestyles.

    So please consider reading the Imam Ibn Hazm book The ring of the dove. on his excellent analysis on the different types of love and its conditions on society.

    Saggal@- Are you playing Clan poltics in this blog, first all its your people in the the north of somalia that supports and pratices this so called- FGM not the south. We are more civilized people we let our women do what ever they wish as long as they dont get in our way.

    Abu sinan@- I dont have the hadith on me right now but when i do get the proof and send to you ASAP

  123. Maximus,

    Please do not tie the mutilation of a woman’s genitalia to Islam. FGM not only limits the extent to which a woman can enjoy sex (her God-given right) but it also leaves many women unable to give birth to children. It is a violation of the body so beautifully given to us by our Creator.

    Neither men nor women should look at the awrah of a young woman. FGM violates a women’s right to her privacy and her own body. Please be careful- Allah tells us to not put lies against Allah. Please be careful.

  124. @Sumera-

    You are dead on…when you approach marriage as a one night-stand you are sure to be dissappointed. When you are committed to being served like a king or a queen rather than loving your spouse with respect and compassion you are sure to be disappointed.

    Anyway-most HAPPILY MARRIED FOLKS know that it’s not about the sex. Sex is important, sex is beautiful but the best parts of marriage are spent doing the simple things-praying together, talking, advising each other, laughing, sharing a warm embrace, reading Qur’an together, exercising, being content in silence…

  125. @Maximus – If a “Libertarian” can be a Muslim why can’t the author of Mathnavi? Or maybe I am confused – you never said you are a believer.

    We are living in a world where misanthropos is a virtue and idiota maximus are judging fidelis

  126. Maximus,

    “We are more civilized people we let our women do what ever they wish as long as they dont get in our way. ”

    Clearly I’m being the fool to ignore the good advice that responding to you is beneath the dignity of sane people. But you shouldn’t have made above comment without thinking first -if the people of Mogadishu and its environs (the South) are so civilized, why are they, 17 years after the dictator Siad Barre was ousted, still fighting?

    True, we face crippling poverty in Somaliland, and the international community does not recognise us but we didn’t turn on each other and start fighting like the South the moment Barre was out of our hair, we broke away following disillusionment and anger with the Southerners when turned on each other. We have had 4/5 democratically elected presidents and governments since, we have a functioning infrastructure, hospitals, universities and schools -one of the primary schools there was founded and is still fully funded by my family.

    Do you want to know why the former British Somaliland (now Re of Somaliland) is a functioning state while the former Italian Somalia (South Somalia) is a failed state?
    You don’t have to take my word for it, b/c unlike you I can provide facts to support my statements, you will find the reasons for the differences in this article from Le Monde. It was written in 1997 but is still very valid as nothing has changed. Blame the Italians for the mess you are in:

    Skip to paragraph 5, the one that starts:
    “It was against this background that the fourth, most northerly, part of the former Somalia developed: the Republic of Somaliland”

    http://mondediplo.com/1997/10/somali

    Btw, by day, I toil for an American IT behemoth – my earnings go into maintenance work of the school -repair of leaking roofs, replacing broken desks, purchasing books etc. Although I’m a higher tax payer in the U.K, I have not ever owned a bed to sleep in -b/c the money is needed more urgently elsewhere. Kids from this school have gone on to Ivy League unis. in the U.S, including Yale and that makes me far happier than owning a bed ever could.

    Tell me Maximus, what have you ever done for your people in the South?

  127. Muslimah123,

    Wa alaikum as salaam sister,

    Really sorry my comments saddened you and I take back what I said about the Southerners and FGM.

    By giving up on Somalia, I meant Somalia as a whole, as one country, North and South united like before. I’m fully committed, and Insha’Allah will remain so for a long time, to the rebuilding of Somaliland.

    It saddens me that the War in the South is still raging and the South has now been invaded by the Ethiopians together with Uncle Sam and others -I stand by my words that I’m anti-Clan politics, but at the same time I reject the notion of lump
    ing together the North with the South when talking about fighting and War. It’s misleading to do so as we (Northerners) are Not fighting amongst ourselves, nor are we at war against the South.

    Was I giving Dawah? Strange as I’m in need of Dawah myself, and yes, I’m one of those that need to go on the Al-Maghrib courses but everytime I remember to check, they are always fully booked…

    Salams,
    S.

  128. Natalia @- what the hell do mean by the statement-
    “Some men you just can’t reach.”

    where you stating about me?

  129. Assalaamu alaikum,

    I’m sorry; I didn’t read all the comments, so I’m just reacting to the article. There are some good points and you mention problems that occur and should be addressed, but I’m amazed at the generalizations you make about Muslims. Just to choose one: “Go to a Muslim country, or even to a Muslim neighborhood here, and you will see women carrying a baby and a bag of groceries, and the husband walking down the street chillin a few yards ahead yapping on his cell phone. ”

    Speak for yourself, or for your community. You might see this in your neighborhoods, but I don’t see it. My husband is very traditional, and he does the grocery shopping, first of all. And if I happen to be with him and we have a lot of bags, he carries as many as he can; if he can’t carry them all, then I carry some. (Actually, now that my sons are older, they’ll carry them, too, before I have to.) How can you claim that all Muslim countries are like that?

    I am American, but every time I read these blogs by Muslims in America, I say Alhamdulillah I became Muslim in a Muslim country and I’ve never lived as a Muslim in the U.S. (and alhamdulillah my children don’t have to live there). Maybe these blogs aren’t representative, but they sure make it look like a messed-up environment. I know some Muslims like to claim that the U.S. is the best place to practice Islam, and that makes me laugh.

  130. “Some Muslims like to claim that the U.S. is the best place to practice Islam, and that makes me laugh.”

    A lot of immigrant Muslims make this claim. I have been told more than once that in America one is truly free to practice Islam versus in Kuwait, Jordan, UAE, or Egypt.

    I seriously doubt your living a good life Ann, I’ve heard far too many times, even from nonMuslims in other countries that the misogyny is out of control in those countries.

  131. Ann,

    If you things in Muslim countries arent messed up, you dont get out much.

    From Cairo to Riyadh young men and women are dating, having sex outside of marriage. People are drinking and doing drugs, Saudi courts give custody of children to men who show up in court high on hash, young girls at university in Jeddah Saudi Arabia wearing certain bits of clothing to identify who is lesbian, hundreds of litres of alcohol found outside of Mecca.

    In places like Amman and Jordan the young girls are wearing tight jeans, short shirts. Young guys in Riyadh think they are 50 Cent with their Escalades and the rap music.

    You certainly need to get out more. Sure the West is messed up, but at least people here are open about it. In “Muslim” countries hypocrisy reigns supreme where the leaders, as a whole, live very sinful lives yet “Allah” roles off their tongues with no effort.

    “Yes, Insha’Allah, I will be fornicating, drinking and eating this year in Europe for Ramadan” is the battle cry of the Arab establishment.

  132. Abu Sinan

    “Young girls at university in Jeddah Saudi Arabia wearing certain bits of clothing to identify who is lesbian, hundreds of litres of alcohol found outside of Mecca”

    I thought most saudi women were bisexual or lesbians and its a well known fact that about 30% of saudi males are homosexual and the religous police refused to enforce the law upon them because there is so many of them or they dont care.

    Besides its much easier to be gay than straight in the middle east because their women are hard to get and cost to much to keep.

    As the finding alcohol in large quanties outside mecca you are dead wrong man…. if you have the right connections you could find it inside mecca with a 2 for 1 deal. A bottle of black label and a block of hash.

  133. Assalaamu alaikum,

    Of course, bad things happen in the Middle East; it’s not perfect. But it’s not as if EVERY Arab is drinking and fornicating. Even in Madinah at the time of the Prophet (pbuh), there were Muslims people doing those things. You all just stay where you are, though… and believe the things you hear.

    I need to get out more, Abu Sinan? I live in the Middle East, and have for many years. I see your negative comments about Saudi Arabia and every Saudi on blogs all over the place, so tell me – how much time have you actually spent there?

  134. Assalaamu alaikum,

    I have read that blog, too. And if things are really that bad over there, than Allah help you all. And I hate to think what non-Muslims think of Muslims and Islam after reading these blogs.

  135. Assalaamu alaikum,

    WS, explain to me how it’s easier to practice Islam in the U.S. than in Kuwait. Let’s just take praying as an example. We know when the adhan is, because we hear it from at least five masjids; if we don’t hear it, we can turn on the TV, where it’s broadcast. Or we can look at a prayer calendar in any home, or in the newspaper. Or just ask someone.

    There are masjids everywhere, and they all have areas for women, which are just as well-maintained as the men’s areas. If I’m at the mall, the zoo, or the park, I’ll find a masjid or musalla (prayer room). If I’m out somewhere and want to just pray outside, I can do that without someone thinking I’m a terrorist.

    It’s accepted that employees will stop to pray, so I don’t have to file a court case to get that right. In school, my sons have a prayer break, when all the students pray together.

    If I’m making wudhu – even washing my feet in the sink, no one will think anything of that.

    If I’m travelling, my hotel room will usually have a prayer rug and Quran, and it always has an arrow pointing towards Makkah.

    So tell me how praying (or any other Islamic practice) is easier in the U.S.

  136. Ann,

    Who are you trying to convince… me or you?

    Why are you concerned about others perception of you? I could care less what one thinks of me. Then again you give the appearance of an honory… whatever your husband is <— don’t know who you are ROFL SMH…khalASS

  137. Salaams,

    WS,

    I’m an immigrant to your “fragrant” West and you, my friend, are dead wrong, it’s not easier to practice Islam in the West.

    I was in a Muslim country recently and experienced pure unadulterated joy everytime I heard the call to prayer (Adhan) – it meant I could pray pretty much anywhere, at least five times a day.

    I prayed in a lawyer’s office -excusing myself from an important meeting. On a restaurant roof terrace where I just happened to have lunch but knew no one -the cashier took her jilbab off for me to use. In a former President’s office, walking off from an interesting discussion with him. And the best part of the experience for me was being able “to take part” in fajr jamaah without leaving my bedroom -I could hear everything the Imam in the local mosque said.

    If you can tell me of a place in the West where I can do any of the above, then I might be persuaded to agree with you.

  138. I don’t know how this conversation got to talking about where it is easier to practice Islam. Of course it would be easier to pray and do those things in a Muslim country. It is a Muslim majority country.

    But to try to use that as a proof that we should do EVERYTHING according to the cultural mores of Muslim countries is mistaken

    The point I saw in the original post was that we here in the West have tried to adopt other cultures’ traditions in marriage when we have our own tradition which includes romance. Nothing is WRONG with either one as long as it does not contradict Islam. There is nothing wrong with a traditional Muslim marriage and there is nothing wrong with a marriage with romance in it.

    Umar’s point is that there is nothing wrong with romance as is in our tradition. I don’t think he was attacking the Muslim world for the lack of this tradition. He was just stating a fact. Again: there is nothing wrong with either. Their way can and does work for them and our way can work for us if we do it while NOT contradicting Islam.

    I’ll have many of you know that there IS a tradition of courting in America that does NOT include fornication

  139. Saggal,

    As a Muslimah have done those very things since converting close to 10 years ago. I’ve even applied and accepted positions in corporate America as a Fundraiser, Events Planner, Executive Secretary… while in HIJAB and ABAYA. Also I have a “muslim” name.

    Often the trouble many of us as Muslims find ourselves in is due to our arrogance. WE feel the world revolves around us…. it doesn’t. No owes us anything. WE are hypocrites at best….

    anyway I digress. I will say to you what I say to my husband… if you don’t like it here, since you aren’t giving dawah… take your ass back home

    How wonderful…
    http://www.startribune.com/484/story/1356665.html

    In Maine they are known for milking the welfare system…. in the DC metro area, they are known for the same acts committed by the brother in the article.

  140. Farooq said, “I’ll have many of you know that there IS a tradition of courting in America that does NOT include fornication”

    Thank you Farooq… As an American I did marry as a virgin, as did my sister and most of my brothers. Courtship is a beautiful thing – you get to the knwo the person. My current husband and I did this… Some Middle Easterners do it as well (they get married and do not consumate the marriage immediately…).

    Americans have many strong values – my mother never touched alcohol, many americans don’t drink. My parents were married, as were my grandparents and greatgrandparents, etc… Looking from the outside it’s hard to tell but the black community is very family oriented. Many youth are raised by relatives, including grandparents. Many black men step in where others slack.

  141. “But to try to use that as a proof that we should do EVERYTHING according to the cultural mores of Muslim countries is mistaken”

    Farooq,

    I hope you didn’t have me in mind when you wrote above statement, b/c, if you read my earlier posts on this thread, you’ll see that I agree with you 100%. It’s just that I wasn’t amused when somebody claimed immigrant Muslims reckon it’s easier to practice Islam in the West.

  142. “… take your ass back home”

    How very charming of you.

    I will have you know that my paternal grandfather fought, and died for, the British. I am very happy here in the U.K and have no plans to go anywhere else.

    Fi Aman Allah.

  143. Saggal,

    At my workplace here in the DC area we have Friday prayers, every Friday, and have done so for years. Sometimes almost 100 people show up for them. The Imam is rotated between three brothers with a lot of knowledge, Masha’Allah. We are given our own large meeting room for an hour to do so.

    We have a Muslim American group here and many brothers get together to pray Fajr, Dhuhr, Asr and Maghrib every day. During Ramadan we have iftar every night for the brothers who do not go home early.

    This year our employer is doing a series of events and educational get togethers to educate the workforce about Ramadan, Eid and fasting.

    Muslims were given permission to have their own refrigerators to accommodate the storage of halal foods and Muslims are allowed to pick their own office mates so as to not be forced to be in a room with people of the opposite sex.

    Once a year we have a cultural day where our Muslim association hands out educational and dawah materials. Last year we gave away, free, almost 500 Qur’ans in four different languages along with several thousand pamphlets concerning the religion.

    So when you said “If you can tell me of a place in the West where I can do any of the above, then I might be persuaded to agree with you” I am glad to know that you now agree with myself and the others.

    Thanks.

  144. Ann “I see your negative comments about Saudi Arabia and every Saudi on blogs all over the place, so tell me – how much time have you actually spent there?”

    Every Saudi? Hardly, I am married to a Saudi. Not all Saudis are bad, but like all other Arab establishments, the system is corrupt to the core.

    As to how much time I have spent in the Middle East? A lot, months, from Morroco to Yemen. No time in Saudi as the government has decided, unIslamically, that my wife and I must seek THEIR permission to marry. Hence we are not allowed in the country together.

    Nevermind that according to The Qur’an, Hadith and almost every other country in the world we are married. They set their own laws and customs above that of God’s.

    It would seem you are one of those who travel to the Middle East, marry an Arab, and are now really infatuated by Arab culture and the like. I like Arab culture, but it doesnt keep me from being realistic about the whle situation.

    Sure, you hear Adhan from mosques five times a day, but are you free to speak your mind about the authorities in the area? I can sit here and say anything I want about our leaders, even the President. Do you dare insult or question the leaders there? What happens to those who question their leaders in the Middle East? They end up dead, in jail, or with their wives and sisters raped.

    Sure, you can hear the Adhan, but then you have well known religious leaders in the area who “drive” the jinn out of women using their “manhood” and it is okay. Maids, domestic servents are raped and killed on a regular basis and no one is held to account for it. You have leaders who spend millions on gambling sprees, prostitutes and drug and alcohol benders in Dubai, Beirut, Las Vegas, New Jersey and Europe.

    If that is what you call a Muslim land, you can keep it. Kuwait, Saudi, UAE, none of them are any different than the USA accept we dont have the hypocrisy that these countries do.

    We have AIDS here, we dont deny it like Saudi who are suffering a epidemic of the disease. Kids here have pre-marital sex, girls in Saudi and the Middle East do as well, then pay thousands to get their hymen fix before marriage. Those, that is, who dont have intercourse in other ways.

    It ALL happens there Ann, just as much as it does here. At least here people dont claim to be “holier than thou” because of their proximity to Mekkah.

  145. Ann “If I’m making wudhu – even washing my feet in the sink, no one will think anything of that.”

    Sad that in a “Muslim” country you dont have specific places meant to just wash the feet like they are starting here in the USA. Imagine that, in a “Muslim” country you are still having to lift your feet and wash them in the same place people wash their face or brush their teeth.

    Maybe someday the “Muslim” countries will catch up with the Americans in their accomodation of the Muslim faith. No foot basins for Muslims to wash their feet in a Muslim country……….amazing.

  146. Salaams Abu Sinan,

    I wouldn’t say that I now agree with you:-)

    I wasn’t talking about designated places of prayer and/or organised prayers but more about being able to pray when you are out and about town.

    Also, at work, for every Abu Sinan (and others) that are able to do as you say, there are thousands that are not. But on a more serious note, I think we should give thanks and praise to Allah for making it easy for some of our brothers and sisters…for the rest of us, every salaah, except Fajr and Ishaa, are a near mission impossible.

    At my work, people will look at you as if you have three heads if you as much as let on that you are interested in religion-any religion-never mind being provided with a place to pray. But I think other centres of this firm have prayer rooms.

    And then, the nature of my work means I am more often than not working at a client site or travelling. And I can’t very well walk out of meetings, it’s already hard enough with time difference and teleconferencing…yeah, excuses, excuses, but we do try, honest.

    I actually like you Abu Sinan, so please don’t pick on me:-)

  147. Saggal,

    yes very charming indeed…. Yes, whenever my husband attempts to insult America, I politely tell him to go back home and remind him, what’s happening in his country makes the blood and crips look like child’s play, what’s happening in his beloved land makes the ghettoes and slums of America look like paradise…
    my grandfathers fought as well…my parents were part of the civil rights movement in america; my uncles headed local chapters of the NAACP, so don’t tell me about fighting the good fight… my grandparents were UPROOTED from their land…stripped of our identity…
    yes take your ass back to wherever if you feel the need to insult our traditions. If back home is so dayum good… why the hell did you ever leave.. .truly how many are giving dawah? HOw many have left Muslim lands to give dawah?

  148. Saggal,

    Sorry if you dont think I was being nice to you. I apologise, as the people who actually do like me are small in numbers, I cannot afford to offend anyone! LOL!

    Look, the societies in the Middle East and other places in the “Muslim” world are rife with corruption and have many cultural practices which make them very bad places to live at times.

    Try speaking your mind in Pakistan, Yemen, Saudi Arabia or almost any other “Muslim” country and you might end up in jail, dead, or watching your wife, mother and sister being gang raped by the local police.

    Social justice, in the West, is far more in line with Islamic practices than in any Muslim country. We can speak our minds here, we can worship in a more free manner here.

    People might look at you strange if you are religious here or want to pray, but they will let you with no harm. Try being a Shi’a or Sufi in Saudi Arabia and see what happens. Shi’a and Sufi religious practices and pamphlets will get you put into prison, beaten, or worse.

    What is the use of having a mosque on every corner if your manner of worship might endanger your life? I am not a Shi’a, nor am I Sufi. I have many issues with certain aspects of their beliefs, however I dont think they should die or be locked up for it.

    In much of the Middle East and wider “Muslim” world who you know is much more important that what you know. It doesnt matter that you might be more qualified for a position than somebody else, if they are married to the cousin to a friend of someone who is important, they will get the job before you.

    Need something from the government in 99% of places in the Muslim world? No problem, the standard bribe is what you’ll have to pay. No money? No service……..sorry.

    So yes, you might be able to pray when you want in a “Muslim” country. You might be able to attend more religion classes, although what you are taught will vary often being more culture than religion, but at the end of the day that is ONLY thing that makes these countries “Muslim”.

    In their character they are not Muslim at all, they are the farthest from it. It is just like The Qur’anic verses I posted here a few days ago with Hadith. There will reach a time in this world where the people who claim Islam will actually be the farthest from it.

    The words of God said this, not me. The Prophet made it clear, not me.

    Yes, the people who claim Islam will be the farthest from it. The people who recite The Qur’an will not act as Muslims because the verses reach no further in their body than their throat.

    It is the word of God. God and His Prophet predicted what we are saying.

    Socially, there is no difference in Muslim countries than the West. Head to any major city in the Muslim world and you will see the same exact things that you see here in the West.

    Yes, you can pray on any street corner, but you must keep your mouth shut, you must adhere to other people’s view of the religion, and you must accept bribery and corruption as the rule of the land.

    That is not Islam.

  149. Wounded Soul,

    I am sorry your ancestors were uprooted. I don’t know if moving back to Africa is something you’d be interested in but if ever you are, I’d be more than happy to support/sponsor your application (for the countries I have connections with).

    And if you must know really, I haven’t left my home, it’s just that I’m blessed enough to call more than one country ‘my home’ and I love them all. Not all immigrants are refugees you know -from the age of about 7 to 12 I was in school in Scotland. I have not at any time claimed welfare benefits and, just like a lot of the commentators here, I do pay taxes to fund these benefits and other public resource.

    Finally, I’m puzzled as to which traditions you refer -you are not offended b/c I said it’s easier to make 5 salats in a Muslim majority country than it’s in the West, are you? But that seems irrational, as br. Farooq already pointed out, it can only be so.

  150. Abu Sinan,

    No, you didn’t offend me at all, I was trying to preempt a scenario where you’d come down on me like a ton of bricks -am but small and feeble.

    All that you say above I agree with, 100%.

    If you read my comment on another post, I think it’s called ‘A Few Umarisms’ , you’ll see what I mean.

  151. I agree that it is easier for a lot of people to make their 5 salats because there are constant reminders. But when I was in Morocco I found it hard to find accomodations for women. Plus, I was in class all day at a university, so I had to ask permission to leave class to pray dhuhr in someone’s office. Many of the restrooms were downright scary to make wudhu. Some were impossible, and there was no foot business in the basin. On top of that, when we were travelling from city to city, it was unheard of for women to make salat outdoors or in public spaces.

    As far as who has earned the right to criticize America, I think anyone does as long as it is thoughtful and not based on some wacked out generalizations. There are so many American Muslims living and studying in the Middle East with negative things to say about their government and social systems over there. If we instituted a policy of kicking out people for having critical opinions of America, we’d be just as repressive as the regimes we criticize. Then what happens next? We start relinquishing citizenship to those who are critical?

  152. Assalaamu alaikum,

    There’s no point giving facts when people are convinced of something else. And this has nothing to do with how people think of me; in fact, most of the responses have nothing to do with what I said. If you want to believe that I’m an Arab wannabe, and that I can’t open my mouth without being dragged to the police station to be tortured, then that’s up to you. Like I said, those of you who are happy there, stay where you are… I’m just sorry that other people are put off living in Muslim countries because they actually believe all the garbage they hear from people who have no clue.

    There’s nowhere that’s perfect, and you’ll never hear me claim that. But it’s simply not true that those things go on at the same rate here that they do here, Abu Sinan. The idea that 1/3 of Saudi men are homosexual – I know it wasn’t you who said that – or that virtually everybody is drinking and fornicating, is just ridiculous. If I go out looking for it, though, or I hang out only in those places where those things happen, then I’m going to find it.

    Making sweeping generalizations about “Arabs” or – even better – “immigrants” serves no good purpose. Does anyone really think that all Arabs, all Arab countries, or all immigrants are the same? That every immigrant wife would coldly give her hsuband the message that, by the way, his father died, and then ignore his reaction? C’mon…

  153. I suggest people do not listen to me or Ann, or anyone else for that matter. Take a trip to the areas yourself. Talk to the people who live there. When you have done this then you can make up your mind.

    Some people will have you believe that the Middle East is a fairy tale land where all people are pious and the governments have nothing but the best wishes of their citizens at heart.

    Spend a few months there, talk to people who live there, and people who used to live there and make up your own mind.

    Ann wants people to believe that somehow things are better in the Middle East than they are in the West. As a person who has traveled all over the Middle East and lived in the USA and Europe I can tell you that just isnt true.

    In the Middle East the same things happen in basically the same numbers. The difference is that in the West it is open in the Middle East it is covered up.

    She talks about going to places to find people drinking, but all one has to do is head to the Kabbah and they will find it. I guess Ann didnt hear about the drunk driver who lead police for a chase around the Grand Mosque recently?

    You dont have to look for it Ann, it is all over the place. If you choose to ignore it in hopes that it will make you feel better and help you to deny the way things really are then there isnt much one can do.

    If you go to University in the Middle East you will find it. Head to any town or city and you will find it. The leaders are drinking and hitting the prostitues. Places like Beirut and Damascus are KNOWN places for drinking and prostitution, but you dont have to go there. It is in the heart of Saudi, places in Riyadh where the young meet and have sex.

    I dont make this stuff up, this comes from some of the young who are actually living there. You can read about it on-line even if you cannot see it first hand. Wild parties in Jeddah Saudi Arabia, drink, drugs, sex, you name it.

    The Middle East is not much better than the US and it is getting worse. If people like Ann choose not to admit it, then that is her fault.

    There are those converts who flee to the Middle East thinking it will help them lead a better, more Islamic life. For those seeking a religious life, they can find it, but they soon realise that the bad things are there as well.

    Those fleeing because they find it hard to avoid sin often come back to where they came disheartened to find that the types of things they were fleeing from in their original countries are there in the Middle East as well.

    This isnt in small dark corners of the Middle East, there are people smoking hash right now feet from the Kabbah. There are “Islamic” judges right now giving children to fathers who show up high in court on hash.

    Ann, The Qur’an makes it clear that there will come a time when people who call themselves Muslim are not. We are in those times.

    Do you deny that there will come such a time? Go hang out with the royals in the country you live in and then tell me with a straight face if you could call these people leaders of a Muslim country?

    Go and accompany them on their million dollar buying sprees, hit the clubs with them in London, Paris and DC, see if these are the leaders of the Muslim nations.

    From top to bottom they are corrupt. Wasta (connections) resha (bribes), they control these countries from top to bottom.

  154. I don’t think Ann is trying to say that Muslim countries are perfect. Only that it is easier to practice Islam..which generally IS the case.

    It is great if you are from those countries or (if you are a woman) marry a man from there and can do your thing, but it is not an option for a person like me. I don’t think that it should be forced down my throat.

    On the other hand, I think a lot of people are put off because THEY HAVE BEEN THERE – like I have – and were sorely disappointed in what they found.

  155. I’d have to agree with Farooq,
    Technically, it would be easier to practice aspects of your faith. But many of us Westerners are only valuable in the Middle East because we can teach English or have some technical skill. I’m not trying to bash Ann, but I found it actually harder to find accomodations for prayer in Morocco than in the States. It was dissapointing to me. I also know that women who wear hijab may be discriminated against. Or in numerous Muslim countries, if you’re Black, the only thing that keeps you from getting treated like dirt is that good ole American passport.

    I think it is important to weigh the pros and cons of living in the West or in a Muslim country. There are numerous westerners living in the Muslim world, but a lot of Muslims migrate to the West looking for opportunity. I have no strong attachments to either idea. I just find it annoying that we paint a utopian image of either place. As for me the idea of living as an ex-pat, teaching at an American University, able to support my family, keep my kids out of gangs, and retire, is not so bad. On the other hand, there are a number of things in the Old World that will test my patience. Sigh, make du’a for me, I’m headed out for a year.

  156. Salaam

    Br. Sinan I couldn’t agree with you more. Often times we muslims have this romantic notion, of moving to an Islamic country. Raising our children there, where we can practice Islam freely. But sadly that is not the reality. Yes it’s beautiful to hear the Adhan 5 times a day, yes it’s amazing to have mosques at every corner, yes it’s wonderful to be able to experience Ramadan in a “muslim country”…..but honestly that’s about it “FOR ME”.

    I think the question that needs to be asked is, where in the world can a muslim practice Islam more freely? Right now…

    Second question that needs to be asked is, what do we mean by “practice”?

    A country like Tunisia….women will literally vanish for wearing hijabs, actually the only way a women can wear hijab over there, is if it’s tied in the back, exposing the neck and ears. Turkey….we all know the situation there….it’s either your hijab or your education.

    A friend of mine was studying Arabic in Damacus Syria….and one day she was walking towards her Tajweed teacher’s house, her teacher hurried her inside her home, and told her to please not carry the Quran in her hand, but rather in her bag. The teacher was so scared that she would be caught teacher Quran to the foreign students.

    Places like Cairo…it’s almost impossible to have some kinda of a Halaqa, without the secret police knocking at your door. I was in Cairo last year with my cousin, walking the streets trying to find the nearest masjid to make it for Salatul Jumuah. As we were walking I realized that the police had been following us for almost 20 mins. For no apparent reason…I was scared, my cousin turned around and slipped the officer some money, and then the officer left us alone.

    The next day my cousin and I decided to spend the day in Alexandria, Egypt. We were waiting in line to purchase tickets to enter the National Library. Within seconds, I realize both sides of the street and been completely closed off by at least 200 military police, the streets suddenly became a ghost town, every single shop was told to close up. My cousin and I just ran and followed the people in front of us. Later on we realized that some of the students at the University, located directly behind the library, were protesting the unfair elections. Those that protested were arrested (and only Allah knows what ever happened to them). I can honestly say I have never been that scared in my life. It was at that point that I realized that, no matter what you say about the West, I know I can vote ( unlike Saudi), but at least we have so many freedoms that we take for granted. The right to peaceful protest, freedom of expression, the right to vote etc.

    Sr. Ann I would totally back Br. Sinan’s comment that indeed homosexuality, fornication, drinking, child molestion etc is definetly at the same rate in the muslim world as the West. The problem is that this all happens BEHIND closed doors especially in Saudi. A muslim sister I know that decided to make Hijra with her family, so that her children could learn the Arabic language. She took her 3 children in for a check up with the doctor, can you believe what the doctor said “Sister please watch and guard your son like a hawk, especially when he moves to the school with the older boys”. Sadly many young boys are molested and raped in the school bathroom.

    One last story….a few muslim sister’s and I were just relaxing having a girl’s night at friend’s house. Laughing, cooking etc….well all of us didn’t have our hijabs on, and some of the girls we wearing tank tops. One of the girl’s visiting from Saudi said……”this would never happen in Saudi” ie. meaning over there something innocent like that would have led to girl’s making out…..and ultimately having sex. Let’s just say all of our mouths just dropped.

    You see Sr. Ann this does happen in the Muslim world….it’s just hush hush. In my opinion I would much rather raise a family here in the West, where I know what is really happening, then in a country were everyone lives in a constant state of Denial.

    And sadly a small statistic. Do you know what country down loads the most amount of GAY PORN…….? Saudi Arabia

  157. “Do you know what country down loads the most amount of GAY PORN…….? Saudi Arabia”

    Do you have any evidence to back this up?

    Saudi bashing has reached staggering proportions.

    Margari,

    All the best. Will make du’aa for you.

  158. Saggal

    Why are you pro saudi?
    Like these sand monkeys care about you anyway. besides its a well known fact the 30% of the saudi male population are homosexuals, and i am sure that download Gay porn

    If you dont believe me check out Youtube there is videos showing saudi women behind close doors stripping for free in front of computer screens for all the young saudi boys.

    Saudi arabia is a arab backward racist state, which spends 10 billion $ a year on Royal expenses!!! and pampers its citizens from the cradle to the grave. Maybe that why the saudi society can think for themselves.

    Saudi arabia needs to be invaded as soon as possible,maybe Isreal can do the job for us.

  159. Boondocks…Lol! I’m not pro anyone. But my sense of justice is affronted by all the spurious claims going on here about Saudi Arabia.

    Btw, Boondocks, does your monicker mean what I think it means? lol…I’m intrigued. Are we from the same country/countries/region?

  160. Assalaamu alaikum,

    OK, this is my last post. Let me just say that I know what goes on; when I first came here I wasn’t Muslim, so I’m aware of the drinking and the parties.

    My original point was that you can’t generalize. Someone says that in Tunisia, a woman can’t wear hijab, so they decide that every Arab or Muslim country is like that? It’s a “well-known” statistic that 1/3 of Saudi men are homosexual? You’ve just slandered millions of your Muslim brothers in one go.

    I don’t see any Muslim country as a utopia. I’m often contacted by people who want to come here, and I try to be honest about the good and the bad. But the point is that you choose who you want to be around; you have all of the good available, and it’s much easier not to see the bad, because it’s mostly done behind closed doors, when it’s done – and it’s done by a small group. (And usually there are certain places where those people congrgate, and it’s easy to avoid them. Unfortunately, some people purposely go there to find this small group, and then they come back and say that everyone there is like that – like the repotrer who went to Jeddah to write about the homosexual scene there.) Some of you call that hypocrisy, but you might look into the Islamic teachings and find that sins are supposed to be covered up. We’re not supposed to broadcast our sins or the sins of others, because then you get people seeing things all out of proportion and claiming that “everyone” is doing these things. And when people think that everyone else is doing it, they start thinking they should do it, too. When I first read the Islamic attitude towards this, I thought it was hypocrisy, too, but since then I’ve seen the wisdom of it.

    I am no fan of the Saudi royal family, but there are millions of Saudis; some of them are very good people and some aren’t – just like anywhere else. How is it OK to say the things that people say about Saudis? One post above calls them “sandmonkeys” and “backwards” and then calls THEM racist. (Not to mention claiming that 30% of the men are homosexuals and then proving it by saying there’s a video on Youtube of a Saudi women stripping for boys. Duh… does that make sense to anyone?)

    News coverage of Saudi (and Muslims or Arabs in general) is almost always inaccurate. And even if it’s accurate, it’s distorted. Most of you are probably younger than me, but it used to be that the Soviet Union showed their people documentaries about American life that only included the negative aspects. Everything might have been factual, but we know that all Americans aren’t homeless and living on the streets, or in slums or whatever. And the U.S. used to do the same thing. The Soviet Union was this miserable, dark place where no one ever smiled. As soon as the Soviet Union fell, we saw beautiful, young Russian women that looked a lot like Americans, and there was actually green scenery in the country; it was as if all this magically appeared from nowhere.

    As Muslims, especially, we should be more careful about what we say and what we believe about other Muslims. And if we don’t actually know something, we shouldn’t go acting like we do and slandering our brothers and sisters. And we might consider whether there’s some benefit to broadcasting every negative experience we’ve ever had with other Muslims.

  161. Ann
    “(Not to mention claiming that 30% of the men are homosexuals and then proving it by saying there’s a video on Youtube of a Saudi women stripping for boys. Duh… does that make sense to anyone?)”

    When i wrote that 30% of saudi males are homosexuals and i meant it literally and the next line about the video in youtube of the saudi women stripping online to large audience of saudi boys in chat rooms.

    Was something totally different i wasnt trying to link the 2 because it would defeat the purpose of stating that fact that not only saudi arabia, has a large sizeable popluation of gays but indecency is widely spread across the Kingdom.

    I see that you are pro saudi maybe because you ascribe to their mode of thinking or you are a salafi that believes Saudi arabia is the Caliphate and king Adullah is the Amir al Mumineen.

    As for calling them Sand monkeys thats what they are as long as they call me a Nigger or degrade other Muslims, that are either not SAUDI OR WHITE i wont stop insulting them period!!!!

    Hey remember the movie Stars Wars, do you recall the part when Luke Skywalker was attacked by the sand people, thats the image that comes in my mind of the saudis before Oil was discovered in their land in the early 20th century.

  162. Saggal
    Btw i do come from the same country nice guess…. although my mother is originally North African Berber.

    As for the Boondocks comic strip i think you know there is cartoon series based on the popular comic strip, on Adult Swim channel and its out now on dvd [season 1].

    Maybe you should watch it, its really i think the best Animated series out there besides Family Guy.

    p.s- My favorite character is Huey Freeman in Boondocks series

  163. Saggal
    Btw I do come from the same country nice guess…. although my mother is originally North African Berber.

    As for the Boondocks comic strip I think you know there is cartoon series based on the popular comic strip, on Adult Swim channel and its out now on DVD [season 1].

    Maybe you should watch it, its really I think the best Animated series out there besides Family Guy.

  164. Aah, Boondocks means something else in one of the languages I speak – so I wondered if perhaps we come from the same village :-)

    I know about the cartoon series but it’s not something I’d watch, thanks all the same.

    Out of curiosity, which country do you mean when you same ‘I do come from the same country nice guess’

  165. I meant somali i know because i read your reponses earlier at this blog.
    I am sorry my english is not up to standard so diidnt know what you meant by boondocks.

  166. You are Somali? I had no idea, or half Somali anyway, I think? I’m not 100% Somali myself.

    And I don’t think Boondocks has any meaning at all in the Somali language -was thinking of another African language.

    If you don’t mind me asking, have you had bad experience in ME, specifically SA? Surely you don’t really believe all those things you say about the Saudis. I know they can be racist and without compassion towards Muslims from the developing world, and for that reason, I don’t like them much either -it’s the other things I have issue with, the other things that I can’t bring myself to spell out here b/c they are such heinous sins in Islam and not something we should say about fellow Muslims.

  167. Saggal
    Yes I had hell on earth when I was there[Middle east] .I wasn’t treated like a normal human being they are harsh towards people of color especially if come from East Africa. And that’s why I hate their guts…

    Some writers in this blog spdefend the actions of Saudis or the other Gulf Arabs, but they don’t know the real experience of living there as Non Arab of African or Asian descent.

    Btw you said that you were half Somali my mum is the north of Somalia someplace I cant pronounce but originally her ancestors were Berbers.

    I dont want people to think that i am here to bash all arabs not all of them are bad but they need to understand that a good 70% of the muslim ummah isnt Arab and we as Ajam[Non Arab speaking person] deserves more rights and respect than Non Muslims.

  168. What an excellent, excellent post- thanks for inspiring this much-needed discussion. it really resonates. distribute far and wide! no point talking about islam’s liberal and sensual attitude towards sex, ‘the perfumed garden’ etc, when the REALITY of loveless marriages and unequal power relations between men and women is so starkly apparent.
    How can one not assume that social and cultural inequality would not manifest itself in the sexual sphere?
    When women get leftover food, walk three steps behind their husband, go to the marital beds completely unknowing- how are they in a position to demand satisfaction- in the bed, in their relationships, in their careers, in anything?

  169. Sarah,

    I don’t think we can totally wave away talking about the sensual side of sex in Islam because this is also very much a REALITY for many Muslims.

    There is gender work that needs to be done across the various cultures that Muslims inhabit. The conversations and the actions most happen on various levels. As Umar shows in many of his posts teaching a spiritually-based sexual ethics is one step in changing the conditions of Muslim women.

  170. wow what a post
    This discussion is probably dead but the hadith for proving female circumcision is part of the sunnah is weak.
    And a woman can divorce her husband in Sharia if she’s not sexually satisfied.
    Also, in the hadith where the Prophet May Allah bless him and give him peace says not to fall upon your wives like beasts, that sounds like an order to me.

  171. Umarlee, you hit the nail on the head!

    In order for a woman to have sexual intercourse without pain or discomfort she has to be lubricated, wet. In order for that to happen she has to be “turned on”. Different women are turned on by different things and turn on at different speeds, some slow, some fast, some medium, but we all need “something” to get us going.

    So if a husband is in the mood for sex and his wife is not, rather than “rape” her, which the Wahhabi dude up above thinks is his “right”, why doesn’t such husband simply try to turn her on with hot talks, kissing, touching, or doing a sexy lap dance for her like a male stripper? Then once she is lightened up by love and humor he can give her oral sex to get her wet. Or is that “haram”???

    Come on guys! If you have to “take” your wife, you are not doing something right.

    Far more than men complaining that their wives don’t give them enough sex, I hear far more complaints from wives that their husbands lack both the quality and quantity to please them.

    I think there are far more sexually unsatisfied muslim wives than there are muslim husbands.

    So, what do you men plan to do about THAT????

  172. Romantic love is very prevalent in Muslim cultures, and has been through most of Muslim history. In Turkey, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran it is quite common. May I remind you that Taj Mahal in India was built by a Muslim mourning for his beloved wife?

    Saudi Arabia, Afghanistan, Pakistan, North Africa on the other hand are another matter, as they are heavily influenced by the strict Salafi doctrine as well as ( ironically ) custom traditional laws that are not Islamic.

  173. Assalamu’alaikum wa rahmatullah

    I’m dissapointed to someone giving commentaries here. Misanthrope means human being’s hater. I would like to correct you to become people who read hadits,Rasululullah maa qaal(said) “By dzat which my soul is in His hand,Allah does not put His rahmat(compassion love and mercy)but to rahiimin(compassionate ones)” Qaaluu(the companions said) “All of us are yarhamu(compassionate). Qaala(Rasulullah said) “The compassionate feelings of one of you towards your friend will not be accepted,until you ‘re being compassionate to every human being”. This to mean disregard whether they are human being from alienated tribes or Muslim from the west like Umar Lee or from the middle east like syaikh Muhammad Nashiruddin Al Albani who had takhrij this hadits in Silsilah Hadits Adh dha’ifah 1″.

    So ofcourse rahiimin feel compassion to ummat dakwah and more loving the ummat ijabah,and we still regard people as ummat dakwah until they fully understand totally about Tauhid,until finally they’re able to decide whether to embrace Tauhid or to neglect it.

    Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab was known as one of Salafiyyin,while Jamaluddin al Afghani are like Khawarij or Takfiri people. Muhammad Abduh was not known as one of Salafiyyin. Wahhab means the All Giving,the name should be Abdul Wahhabis(the servant of the All Giving). It’s longer,so better put the shorter as “terminologycal name”.

    Rasulullah had said about the condition of a wife which is on the camels hump does not hinder her from coming down and to have jima’ with her husband when at that time the husband needs that. In another hadits even though she’s in front of place to burn woods.

    I hope that you read hadits more dilligent with awareness now,I found hadits telling to make better the jima’ to wife,and hadits forbid a husband to slap his wife(the end of the hadits). A hit in the body is what is allowed,infact,a wife could hit her husband on the body.

    I would happy to send this advice “Don’t be shy to acknowledge every Shahih and Hasan hadits about marriage as such also about sexual intercourses(jima’).”

    In my opinion,about junub bath,why hadits told muslims to have a bath after jima’,eventhough there is no sperm come out at all. My words to this is this “During intercourse,the water of the husband called madzi coming inside the wife’s genital,while madzi is najis. The water inside wife’s genital when doing jima’ is actually being absorbed by the skin of husband’s penis.

    I had been thinking about the reason why we wudhu after something happen. I can’t find a significant answer beside wallahu a’lam. Probably because we’re preparing our self for the condition in heaven which are there aren’t any type of things such as farting,pee and so on.

  174. The hadits about rahiimin there was from Silsilah Hadits Ash shahihah 1 number 167,I write it wrong,not on S.H.Adh dhai’fah

  175. you are right i am living this situation as a woman convert and i am trapped. muslims have a problem with romance and respecting the woman and furfilling her sexual needs. i am western and am astonished i did not know this ugly hidden aspect of muslims not Islam. they have a problem that has become my problem evry day like a martyr, i had a free and happy life as a woman but i chose this beautiful faith, however it comes with all the stupid culture and taboos, of these uneducated men. sorry ! you need to learn from us and not us from you! but i will still stick to my shahada no matter what with a thorn in my heart

  176. i am also a convert…. i am a domestic violence victim from a jewish family, half of whom were from an arab culture— the side of my family which was very sick was ashkenazi and western— i wanted to cover at 14 and couldnt wait to be married, but my dad was a western jingoist abuser from a long line of them… i wanted to move to morrocco or something, he wanted me to parade around half naked for the zionists at the country club, it was hell, and i was hasesi(sensitive) i manuevered into a boarding school for internationals and found muslims friends, and had peace to study and see the koran, then i was dumped into the street after being kicked out of college for being “eastern” again! and had to hide behind lesbians to protect myself and i was struggling to get an education, it was so hard, i worked 18 hours a day 6 days a week… i longed to be married and protected and be able to convert, while remaining a feminist, i wanted to be an islamic scholar– it was so hard to keep a roof over my head– and to rmeain celibate in the states while pretending NOT to be muslim— this went on for 7 years (18-25) I started to get scared because i knew that war was coming, i could feel it, i knew that all the pent up rage i felt was going to explode out of the lunatic fringe of islam and smash america, and i wanted to get my BA, arabic books and practically stick up my dad ( he had quarter million inmy name and i had no control of my taxes–it was sick– i had to work for 5 years before being allowed tuition for school —any game to make sure i couldnt marry for an arab–not safely–meaning that as a feminist i wanted my own education, and money enuf for private property so as never to be a domestic violence victim–like kick him out if he is shit you know?) and i had one big terrible problem i was born looking “exotic”
    and i had an auto immune system disease so i was thin (this mysterious illness disappered whenever i was around religious arabs, of any faith, muslims or sikhs who had good food and clean spaces–spiritually and when i traveled to mideast i got fat like 140 pounds and when in the states i would shrink down to 90 pounds, it was so painful)
    when i traveled on oplanes as a young woman i was always stripped searched because i looked like eurotrash heroin addict if i wasn’t covering my hair which was really big curly and black and my nose was totally messed up–way to big for my face— i tried to fix it at 19 by myslef and my mom had me beaten—she knew i was way to scared to cover my head publically if i didnt fix it!!! because i am an outsider and from jews, i get picked apart, its been really terrible, but the truth is any muslim mother would have fixed it especially since i earned the money myself—
    i didnt want to marry and have the guy dump me for not being pretty enuf
    and you know what– it happened twice, to marriages to dumpd… mainly cause i needed to fix my stupid nose and make sure i had nice clothes
    because my heart was white, and i couldnt stay amongst those with a black heart and i needed a home badly–abroad
    i was so evilly treated by both my husbands, they were born into islam and total brats and just didnt kniow how hard western women have to work and what so many of us go through compared to their sisters who typically are taken care of , not thrown into dangerous streets tosuffer in confusion, i hate americans so much and i have sio much greif regarding ajnabias who marry who are not from ajewish background sometimes who i met abroad— half my family was orthodox– i made a Neccessary leap to islam, not only to escape zionism, but to maintain easrtern feminism which to me is next to the divine, zeinab alghazali was my favorite writers
    a muslims man’s job is to fight for our natural creativity (not just childbirth) but our skills as homemakers, cooks, nuturers, to make us secure enuf to help our neighbors, our children our elderly, to to allow us to not just subsists but to feel like beautiful quuens, really
    the man’s job is to provide our security, to bring us things, to help us maintain our dignity vis-a vis the outside world, thats his job
    sex is important but a man has to more than romance a woman, he has to allow her to take care of her body, mind and spirit so that her glow and love for god basically fills his home, good sex is the highhest pleasure but men , not just muslim men,often have problems realizing that they have to make sure that she is the head of the home space, he is the ambassador to the world of external affairs basically.. whe i lived in the arab world i felt sad to see how much my generation is bullshit even there, the old people had it going on, the old folks in knew in the place i was were farmers– they were strong, they came from really strong people, they worked their land, they always ate well, even if they were poor, always made exquisite clothes, wore beautiful perfumes and just lived in a context where its hard not to want sex, if a home is having a good balance, and two msuims are togetherwho have brains and some level of attraction, there shouldnt be a problembut lets use my nose problem as an exmaple–
    i REALLY needed to fix that (even though its expensive ) so that i could interface better with my mandela and hold my grace better at work without feeling weird( i literraly used alarge jew kinky afro to hide behind which made me look too sexy in public because it looked trashy and if i covered i looked like wowlook at those soulful green eyes and WHOAH that nose what kind of sharmuta asshole parents did this otherwise really nice girl have poor thing
    and then at home in the sex department it made me cry because it made me not feel confident and it was screwing up my own desire towards y husband and he went psycho and then i like ran away before he would leave me, and then he married a new wife who was younger and prettier but not having my soul. my struggle to try to live as amuslim in the muslim world nearly cost me my life about 8 times ( i had to keep running for it) and i always worked involved with social justice, i mean i fought hard all my life even woth cancer, i was a dancer, a teacher, a writer, an activist, and most people i met along the way who were anti-racist said your parents really made your life rotten, they didnt know what a person they were destroying, just because i was anti-zionist and also wanted a the dignity of an eastern life in modern times, i loved my grandparents generation, and their counterparts– they old farmers with ten kids, they were so cute together, so many old couples, they loved their babies and realized that life wasnt about only youth and sex but about like building up a home together providing continuity, dignity for the elderly, joy for the babies, good food for everyone, and they got used to each other— and yeas–LOVE marriages are better than these cousin marriages ( because mens minds are developing) MEN are monketys with tools that need to pray 5 times a day so that they rememeber to have direction basically ( hard workers dont have to ive noticed if they are farmers all the time ) but women are flowers…
    we should be covered, protected and if our parents failed with us women to make us ready for marriage and comfort in our bodies or our educations or whatever, a man, a muslim tenderly without humilation
    gives to his wifwe so that she feels sexy ( st least between like 18-45 or something) he has to make sure shes in herfulfillment first) ive noticed that muslims are MORE able to do this than non muslims — compared to the sicko westerners anyway
    western guys and non muslims men are SOOOOOOOOOOOO disgusting
    i just have to say that.. i hate all of them a man shouldnt touch a woman without a ring and some sort of house or apartment or something, she should always feel secure, and you know from my experience so far the ONE THING that WOULD SOLVE domestic violence in ISlam is that men shouldnt own any private property ever, a woman should stay with her parents , prepare for marraige well and then marry in the years that she is wanting sex without a struggle the choices should be hers and discussed with muslim parents then when the suiter comes he needs to give her a home and it should belong to her ( inmy utopia islam) you know if they set an worldwide islamic precedent it would be so cool EVERYONE would want to become muslim.. where i lived the guys in the villages built their brides their loveley cute houses often by themselves with their own hands, thay were so nice but if the women held the keys to them then the domestic violence would decrease
    because then awoman can say, uh look im too tired, or likewe need to rearrange our day to day lives or like, dont throw something at the wall, you should go to your moms house and break something, or like ive lived in a ghetto nearly geting killed for like eight years after high school, ewas beaten nearly to death at home, was chsed across a continet by nazi punks as a jew and nearly killed by my own family over and over and like,its a big challnge to be an outsider, and like i take care of over a hundrred inviduals compassionately at work because i love god
    and like, why dont you take me on a walk since were broke and live in war because the trees are so pretty here?
    a marraige is more than the sex, its about a vision ultimately and a man should help the woman develop her spirituality not just bang her
    i think its sadthat in islam men dont get excited more draw it out of a woman, sexuality that is….by just realizing her soul– my husband was great temporarily, but then it was like wow, even though id look like frickin demi moore if he stuck by me to grow with me a twenty year o9ld ass is more interesting, oh well.. im so tired lately
    i came back before my heart broke and said, wow it doesnt amtter that i just left a job i loved and a place i loved, i worked so hard all my life, book worthy i think and fought so hard, i thought okay ill just take a year for myself and maybe remarry to a muslim not in war somewhere else, ill change countries, ill fix the damn nose and spend at least six months where i GIVE to myself THIS was three years ago now and was 34, and really hot Minus the nose– i was like JLO, because i ate such good food and i had a cute muslim husband who bought food in teh market everyday and we cooked all arabic food together and my skin was like deep olive and i was healthy and my skin was so soft and my eyes so clear like thre guys that year were fighting to get with me and break up the marraige, and i thought well if this dummy wont just take my ass to teh dcotor and realize that i would also be hot fir ANOTHERTEN YEARS, minus this hokk ass thing in the middle of my face, not just the nose but i was unable to take care of myself ever, i fought for my life because my existence was political, i grew up in extreme political and domestic violence and war and constant discrimination and fought as an anti-racist, and didnt have the priveledge to do what i needed to love myself and be that wife person because of war overarching a murderous family, and because i had to giive up my own wants a needs to fight for justice and my life over and over,
    my point being that men just need to figure out what their wife fucking needs and give her that or help her get it herself, then the sex works, if he doesnt do that its just rape period
    nuf said

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