Ralph Peters, Mark Steyn, and A Future Muslim Europe?

Ralph Peters, a columnist I have often read in the New York Post, in an interview with Front Page in reposnse to America Alone, a book by Mark Steyn, that has been reposted on the blog The Sophistry, talks about the growing fear of “Eurabia” from many in the West who are feeling threatened by the growth of Islam in Europe and the notion that Europe will turn into a Muslim Continent, which many including myself, have predicted will occur without the emergence of a new form of national socialism or a return to traditional values in Europe which would lead to people having more children thus reducing the need for immigrants and warm bodies to join a future fight whether it be cultural or violent in nature. Peters, who is kind of a conservative pro-war insider, has a different take:

FP: “Eurabia” is a true nightmare scenario, correct?

Peters: No. Malthusian linear projections never fulfill themselves (and hysteria is never productive). But, beyond that, the notion that Europe, the continent that’s exported more death and destruction than any other, is going to just shuffle wimpily to its doom is crazy. The Europeans have been playing pacifist dress-up while we protected them, but, sufficiently threatened, they’ll revert to their historical pattern–which is to over-react. Europe’s Muslims may prove to be the real endangered species; after all, Europe’s history of dealing with rejected minorities veers between genocide and, for the lucky, ethnic cleansing. For me, the question isn’t whether Muslims will take over Europe, but whether Europe will simply expel them or kill any number of them first. Sound far-fetched? How would the Holocaust have sounded to an educated German (or Brit, or American) in 1932? Europe is a killer continent. When the chips are down, it will kill again.

These are historical facts Peters is talking about and we can see this with the history of Jews, Gypsies, Bulgarians, Bosnians, Irish, Russians, any number of groups in Spain and others in the history of Europe. No people, anywhere on Earth, has shown a greater will to use violence to spread their political, religious and social agenda in their own backyard and abroad as we saw in the rape and pillage of Africa, the colonization of Asia, the genocide of Native Americans in the Americas, and the like. The question is, has Europe advanced beyond that stage as most believe? Or, the question I will pose, in a hedonistic and post-Christian Europe, do the people have the energy within them and the courage to confront perceived threats or are they too busy sipping wine on the Riviera and engaging in perverse behaviours to even care about anyone but themselves? Or, on the flip side, will the lack of Christan values, and the prominence of secular rationalization, allow them to crush those they see as a threat without any sense of morality or compassion and how does that play into a scenario Peters described?

The conservative writer Mark Steyn, in an alarmist tone, disagrees with Peters and believes that the process of Europe becoming a Muslim Continent (which I being a Muslim would welcome) is irreversible;

It’s true that there are many European populations reluctant to go happily into the long Eurarabian night.” What I point out, though, is that, even if you’re hot for a new Holocaust, demography tells. There are no Hitlers to hand. When Mr Peters cites the success of Jean Marie Le Pen’s National Front, he overlooks not only Le Pen’s recent overtures to Muslims but also the fact that M Le Pen is pushing 80. As a general rule, when 600 octogenarians are up against 200 teenagers, bet on the teens. In five or ten years’ time, who precisely is going to organize mass deportations from French cities in which the native/Muslim youth-population ratio is already – right now – 55/45?

As I’ve said innumerable times, the native European population is split three ways: some will leave, as the Dutch (and certain French) are already doing; some will shrug and go along with the Islamization of the continent, as the ever-accelerating number of conversions suggests; and so the ones left to embrace Fascism will be a minority of an aging population. It will be bloody and messy, as I write in America Alone, but it will not alter the final outcome. If you don’t breed, you can’t influence the future. And furthermore a disinclination to breed is a good sign you don’t care much about the future. That’s why the Spaniards, who fought a brutal bloody civil war for their country in the 1930s, folded instantly after those Madrid bombings. When you’ve demographically checked out of the future, why fight for it?

If we take the scenario of Steyn, which may not be that far-fetched, and look at his three groups I have another take. His first group, those leaving Europe, have to go somewhere, and the question is where will they go? An America where, due to immigration, whites are becoming a minority? A Black ruled South Africa? The new powers of India, China, and Brazil? Those are hardly destinations I can see conservative minded Europeans heading to. What does that leave them with; Australia, Canada, and New Zealand; all fine places to live, but all with growing Muslim populations themselves.

The second group Steyn speaks of, those shrugging off the growth of Islam and those converting, he sees as those who have capitulated to Muslims; but I, as a Western convert myself, see as a group that have accepted the grace of al-Islam, not through the sword, but through the piety of their Muslim neighbors and the strength of the message of the Quran and Sunnah and far from being a threat to Europe this group is an asset to Europe.

Steyn is right on the third group; if you do not breed you do not care about the future and there will be no one left to fight your battles, so you may see small fascist groups in Europe in the future, but unless they merge within the next 10 or 15 years, it will be too late for them and they will be dwarfed by the tide of Islam and that is a good thing masha’Allah and due to the failed future of the Western Right on racial and religious grounds that is why I tell my Muslim brothers and sisters that in the long run, with their seeking to change the culture and deen of the Muslims based on secular humanist values, the cultural left poses a greater threat.

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119 thoughts on “Ralph Peters, Mark Steyn, and A Future Muslim Europe?

  1. I came across a hadith buried in the books about a massacre befalling Arabs or Muslims in the lands of Kufr near the End Times. I’ll look for it then paste it here translated with the citation.

    The guy who predicted Europe massacring foreigners is amazingly insightful; he digested the history of Europeans’ relations with non-Europeans. For some reason Whites seem to be such a ruthless, vicious race. Colonial France, if you don’t know, killed five million Algerians in the decades preceding the Algerian war of independance (this war alone cost the Algerians 1.5 million martyrs plus the 5 millions). And look what America (a nation dominated by Europeans, thus a European nation like al-Andalus was once an Arabic, Muslim region) look what America has been doing to Iraq: in the current war almost one million deaths (and I won’t talk about the millions of refugees here), and a quarter of a million Iraqis killed to liberate Kuwait in the 1991 war, half a million to one million Iraqis killed during the war with Iran of Khomeini (which the Capitalist West created, after agreeing to topple the Shah, in order for a religous state to stand a bulwark in the face of sprading Communism, then approaching the warm Gulf ports from former republic of southern Yemen and Afghanistan -when the communists overthrew the Afghan Shah), and God knows how many Iraqis from Saddam’s army died before the first battle in Iraq ended 4 years ago (before the Jihadists took over the fight), and half a million (or was it a million and a half) Iraqi babies died during the sanctions? (Forgot the exact figure). And almost 300,000 Palestinians died as a result of the Europeans exporting their ‘Jewish Problem’ overseas (as they usually do) and establishing Israel!!!

    And the millions of Africans who drowned while crossing the Atlantic as slaves of the European “masters”, those many others killed for trying to escape slavery, the 500 MILLION “Amerindians’ who perished as a result of the European expansion into the “New World”, and only Allah, only Allah knows how many others died as a result of coming into contact with the Europeans beasts!!!!!!

  2. It’s mathematically impossible for 50 million Moslems to overrun a continent of 800 million Europeans. Both of these men are paranoid, but the murderous intent of their words is a warning for all minorities.

  3. Umar,

    Before you welcome a Muslim Europe please be aware of the quality of Muslims you have in Europe. There are relatively three major Muslim groups in Europe that you can consider because of their religious, cultural and ethnic commonalities. There are the Turks in Germany, the South Asians in Britain, and the North Africans in France. Now considering the deen, generally of these groups, what kind of Islam will you seen in Europe?

    The irony of describing growing Muslim demographics in Europe as Eurabia (Arab-Europe) has far more to do with Europe’s position with regard to the Isreal/Palestinian than it has to do with its changing population. None of the groups I mentioned before are really Arab save the North Africans in France, though it would be best to describe them as Arabized.

    Europe is Eurabia because it is seen by the right as being too pro- Arab.

  4. @ bikhair,

    North Africans in France are Arabs, be them from Berber (Amazigh) origin or “Arabians” (descended from Arabia and arrived to the region with the Islamic conquests). There are many historians there who will argue with you that the Berbers are originally Arabs. I am in the process of having a book shipped to me from Egypt, titled ‘The Arab Gods of Egypt’, which will clarify the similarities between the ancient Egyptian “language”, Tmazight (the language of Berbers) and Arabic. I’ve already seen articles in Arabic that discuss the similarities between ancient Egyptian and Arabic, but I’m yet to read about the relation between the Berber language and Arabic. I already can detect similarities between modern Tmazight and the language of the people of Thamud in southern Arabia (the destroyed people of Prophet Saleh; their language is still spoken in southern Arabia, and there is resemblance in its sound to the language of Berbers I heard several years ago).

    Any attempts by historians and orientalists to distance away ancient Egyptians, Berbers, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Canaanites and Phoenicians..from their Arabian origin..are futile, and are all sprining from a colonial desite to further divide the vast Arab World. Our history was, sadly, written by our enemies, but we’ve been revising it, slowly but steadily.

  5. “that is why I tell my Muslim brothers and sisters that in the long run, with their seeking to change the culture and deen of the Muslims based on secular humanist values, the cultural left poses a greater threat.”

    Thats why America is so much smarter than Europe, (in seeking their own interests)
    and their promotion of “moderate Islam” as to some what possessed by those who call themselves “progressive” and sponsering
    Muslim Academics which foster such ideas or sympathize with it,, is much more effective than pushing enimity with Muslims..

    I guess preserving the deen is a must in your socitey…g2g

  6. I’ve just noticed something really strange.
    I made a slight typo when typing in my blog address for the comment above and the comment link directed to a Christian website.

    I wonder if this is happening to any other Muslim’s blogs.

  7. That problem happens with all .blogspot blogs I think, not just the muslim ones. Enter in blogpsot.com and it goes to the same site everytime. Sorry to digress :)

    “the prominence of secular rationalization, allow them to crush those they see as a threat without any sense of morality or compassion”

    I don’t particularly understand what secular rationalization has to do with lack of compassion or lack of morality. As if the use of religious rationalization both today and in the past has had such an astounding track record of compassion and morality

  8. Planned Massacre of Muslims in Europe ?!

    #################################################
    The plan :

    http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/article.asp?ID=1086

    “The Third World War must be fomented by taking advantage of the differences caused by the “agentur” of the “Illuminati” between the political Zionists and the leaders of Islamic World. The war must be conducted in such a way that Islam (the Moslem Arabic World) and political Zionism (the State of Israel) mutually destroy each other. Meanwhile the other nations, once more divided on this issue will be constrained to fight to the point of complete physical, moral, spiritual and economical exhaustion…We shall unleash the Nihilists and the atheists, and we shall provoke a formidable social cataclysm which in all its horror will show clearly to the nations the effect of absolute atheism, origin of savagery and of the most bloody turmoil. Then everywhere, the citizens, obliged to defend themselves against the world minority of revolutionaries, will exterminate those destroyers of civilization, and the multitude, disillusioned with Christianity, whose deistic spirits will from that moment be without compass or direction, anxious for an ideal, but without knowing where to render its adoration, will receive the true light through the universal manifestation of the pure doctrine of Lucifer, brought finally out in the public view. This manifestation will result from the general reactionary movement which will follow the destruction of Christianity and atheism, both conquered and exterminated at the same time.”

    —————————————————

    http://who-are-the-illuminati.blogspot.com/

    Since the tactic didn’t include the survival of western societies in the middle run (beyond those 20 years), these were some other tactics used :

    – increase to maximum intensity the brainwash agenda of the masses in the West, so that these could be reduced to zombies (total sheeple), incapble of reacting even at the sight of the doors of the slaugherhouse.
    Examples of how the brainwash agenda “GOOD is BAD and BAD is GOOD” was pushed to the utter limits (4) (7) : homosexual political leaders; gay adoption; pedophile “priests”; child pornography; sex slavery trade; legalised genocide of elder in hospitals and homes for elderly as “euthanasia”; generalised drugs addiction : pills, chemical food, marihuana, ecstasy, cocain, heroine, etc (5); genocide of believers.

    mass immigration of muslims to the West. One of the reasons was to use them as a weapon of terror against the natives, as some of these would start reacting, finally realising they were being transported to the slaughter house. Muslim leaders would keep these masses quiet, with the real prospect that in “a few years we will be the majority and will take the power”. (6)

    ######################################################################

  9. Check this book.
    —————-
    “Final Solutions: Mass Killing and Genocide in the 20th Century ” by Benjamin A. Valentino
    ——————–
    The author finds that ethnic hatreds or discrimination, undemocratic systems of government, and dysfunctions in society play a much smaller role in mass killing and genocide than is commonly assumed. He shows that the impetus for mass killing usually originates from a relatively small group of powerful leaders and is often carried out without the active support of broader society. Mass killing, in his view, is a brutal political or military strategy designed to accomplish leaders’ most important objectives, counter threats to their power, and solve their most difficult problems.

  10. http://who-are-the-illuminati.blogspot.com/

    Since the tactic didn’t include the survival of western societies in the middle run (beyond those 20 years), these were some other tactics used :

    – increase to maximum intensity the brainwash agenda of the masses in the West, so that these could be reduced to zombies (total sheeple), incapble of reacting even at the sight of the doors of the slaugherhouse.
    Examples of how the brainwash agenda “GOOD is BAD and BAD is GOOD” was pushed to the utter limits (4) (7) : homosexual political leaders; gay adoption; pedophile “priests”; child pornography; sex slavery trade; legalised genocide of elder in hospitals and homes for elderly as “euthanasia”; generalised drugs addiction : pills, chemical food, marihuana, ecstasy, cocain, heroine, etc (5); genocide of believers.

    mass immigration of muslims to the West. One of the reasons was to use them as a weapon of terror against the natives, as some of these would start reacting, finally realising they were being transported to the slaughter house. Muslim leaders would keep these masses quiet, with the real prospect that in “a few years we will be the majority and will take the power”. (6)

  11. Mr Lee it seems that you have bought into the hype that Europe is a godless continent filled with shallow materialists and you are making several mistakes in your analysis

    I have to agree with Bikhair, “White Watch” and Safiya

    * First of all, I find it tough to believe that even those making these arguments believe this. There are still hundreds of millions of white Europeans in Europe and the overall population of Muslims in Western Europe is around 2% at best?? (It is around 4-5% INCLUDING the Balkins and and Russia)

    * The Europeans would have to COMPLETELY stop having children for 50 years for the Muslims to be close to EQUAL in population. Do we think that Europeans are not having babies AT ALL?

    Further, as Muslims adopt European values (READ: stop having as many children) fertility rates will begin to fall to the level of the whites.

    If the birth rates in Tunisia have fallen below the levels needed to sustain the population over the long term what makes us think that European Muslim fertility rates will remain so high?

    N African women in France are already beginning to delay child birth until later like their white counterparts and we can expect that many will marry non-Muslims.

    So even if current trends remain (which is highly unlikely) it would take a century to even see the Muslims become a significant minority.

    * Not only are they looking at things regionally -mainly concentrating on France, and the UK and forgeting about countries like Sweden, Switzerland, Finland, Greece, Norway, Portugal, Ireland, Poland, Romania and Italy which all have negligible Muslim populations, but they are looking at certain cities with significant minorities

    When it comes to the UK, people think that when they visit West London that Muslims are “taking over” forgetting that London is not all of the UK and that Muslims are only a fraction of the OVERALL population and even in London just 10% of the population of the metro area (all of the UK is 2.5% Muslim)

    Rotterdam is 50% Muslim (but the entire nation is 4% Muslim). Brussels is 20% Muslim. Yes, Muslims are highly concentrated in particular cities, but this does not represent all of Europe. It is as assinine as saying that the US is going to become Muslim after visiting Brooklyn. Then on top of that, we must remember that the vast majority of these Muslims are pretty secular (70% in France say they do not go to a masjid) Then for Steyn to state that Europeans will suddenly begin to convert to Islam in larger numbers at the hands of these marginal Muslims is a stretch (and Allah knows best). European converts are extremely rare and 99.99% of them are immigrants

    The entire thing is so assinine that I can’t beleive that it is taken seriously.

    The thing I see possible is that the Europeans might feel threatened from hearing this all the time and do mass deportation or genocide at some point in the future

  12. Any attempts by historians and orientalists to distance away ancient Egyptians, Berbers, Assyrians, Chaldeans, Canaanites and Phoenicians..from their Arabian origin..are futile, and are all sprining from a colonial desite to further divide the vast Arab World

    Has gaddafi secured internet connection?

    As a Berber I am extreamly offend by your baseless arabofacist garbage. Was Ibn Kalhdun a Agent of the colonists? Or was it Herodotus? Dide Napolian have tea and crumpet’s with them during his stay Saint Helena?

    Who next? The Chinease Arabs.loool.

    Goodness you semite’s seriosly are mentailly ill. I think I understand why hitler put the jews into the oven because we may very well be doing it in Tamazgha……

  13. Rodan,

    So you are contending that Hispanic immigration to the USA does not make the country less white? Umm………unless you havent noticed, Hispanics are not white, hence any major immigration of Hispanics into the country without an equal or greater influx of white immigrants (or higher white birth rate) means that Hispanic immigrants are making the country less white.

    Hispanic culture is a mix of native American Indian, African and Spanish/Portugese culture. Having spent a lot of time in Spain in the last ten years I can tell you that there are a lot of Hispanic immigrants in Spain and their reception is NOT what you might think. They are having major issues assimilating Hispanics because they DO NOT share the same cultures.

    Linguistically even there is a pretty big difference between the Spanish spoken in Spain and that spoken in Central and South America. They put up with it for the same reasons America does, because they need the cheap labour.

    You said “Oh according to the census 52% of Hispanics consider themselves White!”

    Sure, so does Michael Jackson. Because you think you are white does not make you white. What the number you quoted shows me is that 52 of Hispanics polled have an issue with not being white and are ashamed of being brown.

    http://www.expatica.com/actual/article.asp?subchannel_id=82&story_id=4276

  14. Umar,

    Excellent thread topic – one of your best!

    Both men’s thesis are worth consider, though I’m more with Steyn.

    BILL

  15. Abu Sinan,

    Most Mexicans are mestizo- a mix of Indian and European. Even on a census you have the option of choosing non white hispanic. If you want to see what Central Americans are like I guess you could watch one of those Spanish speaking talk shows. The host is a true white woman and her guests and audience are dark brown. I always trip when I watch those shows.

  16. Bikhair,

    I am aware of the mestizo/mulatto mix in Central and South America. The fact that someone has some small amount of white ancestry 400 years ago really doesnt qualify one to be considered white.

    I have found the Hispanics who self-identify as white are very similar to the Lebanese who refuse to admit they are Arabs, rather they want to claim they are Phoenician because Phoenicians ruled the area around Lebanon some 3,000 years ago.

    It is the very same for these two groups. It is a skewed sense of racial identity, often self-loathing, that causes them to identify with a ethnical/racial groups with which they have little or no ties to.

    Some of these same Lebanese will refuse to speak Arabic and would rather speak French, which is more than a bit ignorant because the Phoenician language itself is a semitic language, although it has been dead for hundreds and hundreds of years.

    I have seen the shows you are talking about, but I dispute your term “true white woman”. Because someone has white skin does not make them white/European. When “white” is on a census form that is usually what it means. It is not so much a colour indicator, rather an ethnicity marker.

    Would an albino African American check off the “white” box because they have white skin colour? The other thing that bothers me is that Middle Easterners are usually told to check the white/caucasion box even though they are not white, certainly not caucasion.

    I have met many Hispanics who could “pass” for white, but it doesnt make them so.

    The one ray of hope I see is that now the box “multi-racial” or something similar is offered.

    Anyway I hope that we, as a society, eventually can move past the stereotypes that would cause someone of colour to want to mark “white” on any form.

  17. Hey Libyan,

    I know about your kind, who’d have an Arabic name, be from North Africa, insist they’re not Arabs and in extreme cases that they’re not Muslims.

    I think you haven’t read the hadith, you ignoramus, that loving Arabs is part of a Muslim’s faith. Be sure that you are on the borders of jahiliyyah with your blind hatred for everything Arab. Don’t dare talk about the religion they brought to your ancestors..if that’s how you’ll talk about them all the time! Go lick a Christian or Jewish shoe, become one of them, convert to one of those inferior religions, because it brings a bad name to Islam and Muslims to count you as one of us!!!

    What have the Arabs done to you, you scumbag???? You claimed once before that they ‘raped our blond girls’, I wonder when was that, fool!!! And what’s up with this ‘blond’ thing??? You really think that all you Berbers are blond because some of you exhibit those traits here or there, so now you’re all, what, descended from the Germanic ancient tribes??? :) What a racist!!!! Stupid, stupid racist!!!! What about the negroe-like Berbers of Mali and Niger, the Touareg, huh??? Will you defend those? What about all those Yemeni-like Berbers I saw all the time in Morocco??? Will you defend them???

    Don’t be so sure about the origin of Berbers, you ignoramus. We’re all descended from one of Noah’s 3 sons like the Quran said. And stop those lies about Arabs or Islamists raping your villages; the Muslim conquerers of North Africa were “history’s most merciful conquerers” according to neutral non-Muslim historians!!! And hey, Ibn Khaldun, whatever he said about the origin of Berbers, he’s not the only authority on the subject!! I have an entire book where Arab historians try to trace back the origin of Berbers to the Arabian peninsula.

    At any rate, there will never be an independent Tmazighia or whatever you call that :) The age of nation-states in the Arab world is coming to an end, and the emergence of the Caliphate is fast approaching. No more jahiliyyah stupidity like yours will be allowed then, and if your likes will exist among the ranks of Muslims then, attempt to spread discord and fitnah, then the punishment of Allah on them will be applied, you germ. This nationalistic type of thinking brought to us by the brainless Europeans will be washed away from our lands, along with all those who carry it.

    Choke to death from vexing, you’ll never see an independent Tmazighia EVER, because like an independent Kurdistan, it cannot happen without Western support, and that we’ll never allow. You sit home, speak your language at home or in schools, you’re welcome to have signs in the roads in it, but not in that script that looks like the language of outer space aliens; write it in the Arabic script, and SHUT THE HELL UP. No further dividing of North Africa will be allowed.

    Many Berbers aren’t proud of their language, the way it sounds and the way it’s written. They’d rather speak Lebanese or Palestinian or Syrian Arabic instead, they imitate it all the time and even call it “the Romantic dialects” because of their softness compared to all other Arabic ones, let alone the Berber ones. Some Berbers themselves claim they are originally from Palestine!! Now I didn’t force anybody to say that, I was surprised myself.

    Now, like I said, die from vexing, you ugly stupid ingrateful racist. No body asked you to bow down to most of today’s Arabs who are as corrupt and stupid as you are. Just show respect to those who brought Islam to your people (and your people are sadi to have renounced it FORTY times) and put your feet in your mouth. Nationalist Arabs or Berbers are the same sh!t. I’m only talking history, history won’t change the present or harm the past.

  18. Hussam, I think you need to relax a bit or something.

    “You sit home, speak your language at home or in schools, you’re welcome to have signs in the roads in it, but not in that script that looks like the language of outer space aliens; write it in the Arabic script, and SHUT THE HELL UP”

    And this statement was just really ridiculous and I’m kind of wondering if you’re actually being serious. Because you don’t like the way a language looks they should write it in yours?!. I happen to think Arabic looks not so very pretty. Maybe you should start writing Arabic which “looks like the language of outer space aliens” in Latin script. I would prefer it.

    “The age of nation-states in the Arab world is coming to an end, and the emergence of the Caliphate is fast approaching”

    I find this quite hard to believe considering the state of basically all muslim government in the world. And since nationalism and nationstates are such a bad thing than why are people so upset that the Palestinians land was taken from them? Why would muslims want the Palestinians to have a state/country of their own? This is clearly nationalism and the building (rebuilding technically) of nation states. As you stated, this is a bad thing and its coming to an end anyhow so why bother resolving the Israel/Pal issue.

    And this is kind of irrelevant to the post at hand but Hussam mentioned that loving Arabs is part of a muslim’s faith. Is that actually true? I of course get that you should love people regardless of race/ethnicity as part of your faith but how and why have arabs been singled out for extra affection when really the only one who’s done anything to deserve being loved as part of your faith would be Muhamad

    About the actual post I like Sameer’s little analysis. Primarily because its based on fact rather than gross generalizations

  19. from isalmfortoday.com:

    It is increasingly common to see Muslims in the United States–women and men–leave Islam in growing numbers because of the treatment of women. They see Muslims as offering no solutions to these problems and they see Muslims denying that these problems exist, and after awhile it simply becomes unbearable. As Muslims it our duty to fight against every form of oppression, whatever form it takes, by whatever means we can, and we cannot fight oppression if we do not acknowledge that it exists.

    This address by Samer Hathout was delivered at a workshop organized by the Muslim Women’s League And Karamah: Muslim Women Lawyers for Human Rights at the NGO Forum, United Nations Fourth World Conference on Women Huairou, China, September 7, 1995

    Wonder if things have changed. Mosques would make good dance halls as well as skating rinks.

  20. Hussam

    Loving Arabs is part of a Muslim’s faith? Can you give proof of that assertion?

    I do NOT hate Arabs nor am I saying that hating them is something good, but you are saying that we are REQUIRED to love Arabs?? On what basis?

    What if I said that love of whites is part of our faith?

    Are you one of those who say that the Arabs are superior?

  21. Interesting post, but I think Europe is far from becoming Muslim. Although, the Muslim minorities are increasing in European cities, the power structure and institutions are still, by far pre-dominantly Anglo-elites.

    Even if you look at the civil rights movements in America and the inroads that African-Americans have made, coupled with the emergence and acceleration of the Hispanic population, which most estimate has exceeded African-Americans, the question is what changed has this introduced to any of the branches of government or the real power structure, which are CEOs of Corporations. In fact, what we see are the Anglo-elite are acting in a defensive manner with the recent Supreme Court decision basically dismantling Brown vs The Board of Ed and or the hottest political topic outside of Iraq, which is immigration.

    Articles like these are merely warning to the Anglo-Elites to tighten their ranks.

    However, they should be scared. The average Anglo look around the world and see Muslims in the Middle East, North Africa, West Africa, East Africa, Southeast Asia, Iran, Afghanistan Indonesia, huge Muslim minorities in southern China, the Balkans, Chechnya, the so-called “sick man of Europe Turkey (who they don’t want to join the EU, because of the fear of more Muslims flooding Europe), the Stans, and the rapidly increasing Muslim minorities in every western city. The birth-rate and the conversations of the Muslims and the declining Anglo population, and the irrelevancy of Christianity in Europe, it does look rather bleak. However, animals are most dangerous when they are cornered, and I think they rather destroy the Muslims and the world rather than to concede power. After all Germany was the most dangerous country in World War II, however the A-bomb was dropped on civilians in Japan, even though the war would have been won without dropping it

  22. Inshallah, please give this alleged hadeeth that “loving Arabs is part of the deen?” There is nothing in Islam that I have EVER heard that encourged “loving” Arabs for the sake of them being Arab. We are encourged to learn the Classical Arabic language to master the understanding of the Book of Allah (SWA), but loving Arabs?? Please present evidence of this.

  23. Umar, I definitely do not see a Muslim Europe, for reasons that many (especially Sameer) have spelled out in detail– the demographics just aren’t there, period. I do see a different, more modest development, in no way a Muslim “takeover” by any stretch but something potentially heartening in regard to our reconciliation with the West– namely, the coalescing of an advanced, wealthy, and socially prestigious “Western Muslim foundation” in England.

    We won’t be the majority there, but England is the one place where we’ve truly become a flourishing, prestigious minority, and *as Muslims* who permanently retain our identity yet are able to dwell in relative harmony with the West.

    This isn’t due to lack of hostility in general, as we all know the BNP has its thugs out throughout London and other English cities (even though they’re weak, dumb and generally despised). And not because things are so peachy– many English cities have just filthy streets, overcrowding and questionable public services in my experience.

    Rather, the unique flourishing of the Muslim Ummah in England, is largely because the Muslim community in England is better organized, better funded and far more productive than in other Western countries, not to mention much more politically effective.

    Another important factor, interestingly as I’ve found in nearly a dozen trips to Europe recently, is that Muslims on the Continent are leaving France, Germany, Belgium, the Netherlands, Sweden, Italy and other Continental EU countries to settle in England. All of these are poor and often terrible places to be a Muslim– in fact, French and German Muslims in particular are rapidly losing their very Muslim identity and forgetting their heritage, which is being retained quite well in England.

    Germany is a nice country overall and most Turks and other Muslims I’ve met speak in praising, respectful terms about the country– clean, modern, efficient and to my surprise, in the main very friendly to Turks and to other non-native born groups. It’s just an awful place to be a Muslim in particular. It’s hard to explain exactly why, it’s certainly not hostility (the German people are kind and generous by and large)– it’s just that, the social, cultural and political fabric in Germany is very non-conducive to being a Muslim. Today at least, it’s not a place that lends itself to devout worship of any kind, and socially and culturally in Germany, you just don’t have the kinds of support networks that we often take for granted elsewhere, which make religious observation possible.

    In contrast to England, where Muslim community life is vigorous and energetic, and where there’s also a significant native-born (Black Caribbean) segment of the Muslim population, I found that Turks and other young Muslims in Germany seemed lost, disconnected and listless, more so with every single trip there. The vast majority of the younger Turks in Germany I met have stopped attending mosque, no longer observe halal, don’t even participate in Friday prayers anymore– you’d weep if you knew how awful the attrition rate is in Germany. Interestingly, I met a number of Christian Turks there who were experiencing a cultural efflorescence, but the outlook for Islam there is dismal to say the very least.

    Thus the movement of many, many German Turks to England (or to Canada or Australia), where they tend to thrive and preserve our heritage better.

    This also goes, especially, for the young Muslims in France and the Netherlands.

    Unlike Germany– which is generally a pleasant place, even if it’s a terrible country to be a Muslim in– France, Belgium and the Netherlands I really did not find pleasant at all, the French people and leaders are outright hostile toward the Muslim people there. Sarkozy is perhaps the most anti-Muslim political figure this side of the Atlantic. Muslim women in France cannot wear the hijab, while fundamental Muslim dietary and holiday practices are treated with scorn, eroding our very sense of self and our community connections. And the French government itself is aggressively secular– religion in general is derided there. Similar and at times even worse in the Netherlands, and in Belgium.

    The result unsurprisingly, is that the Muslims who remain in France, Belgium and the Netherlands are losing their identity, just as they are in Germany though for different reasons. The most careful census, done 3 years ago, shows about 2.5-3 million French Muslims (millions of the Arabs there are Christian), with those numbers rapidly dwindling each year as young Algerians and Tunisians lose connections to their heritage.

    And it’s only becoming worse with the recent change in government in France. Muslims in Italy, Portugal, Austria, Denmark, Sweden and Spain, have similar problems– whether due to outright hostility (as in France, Belgium and the Netherlands) or a social fabric that is terrible for Muslim community life (as in Germany), Muslims in these Continental countries are losing their identity.

    This is in contrast to England, where the Muslim Ummah is flourishing as we haven’t done since many centuries ago in the West.

    Thus, Muslims in Germany, France, the Netherlands, Sweden, Italy, Portugal, Austria, Switzerland and Spain are leaving these countries for good, and emigrating and settling in England, or else in Canada and Australia. Therefore England, as well as Canada and Australia to a lesser extent, is becoming the heartland of a Western Muslim identity.

  24. bikhair, I see your points but I’m with Abu Sinan on the Hispanic/Latino immigration effect on the USA.

    In my experience living many years in California, Arizona, Texas and otherwise, Latinos definitely do *not* consider themselves White (nor do Whites with e.g. Irish, English or German ancestry see them as White), and they aren’t regarded as White on census forms, on medical records or otherwise. (For that matter, the White racist groups in the USA deride Latinos as non-Whites.)

    Genetically/ethnically, Latinos are predominantly of native American blood, specifically Mesoamerican– Maya, Aztec, Mixtec, Zapotec, Inca and other groups. There was some intermarriage with the Spaniards but not all that much– there actually have been surveys (looking at things like mitochondrial DNA), and mestizo Latinos are overwhelmingly of Mesoamerican descent, not Spaniard.

    Still millions of other Latinos in the USA are pure-blooded indigenous native Americans– remember, the Latinos in the USA demographically are *not* the same as those in Latin America in general, they come predominantly from northwestern Mexico and other highly native American regions of Guatemala, Honduras, Nicaragua and Colombia.

    That’s why physically, Latinos in the USA tend to be very dark-skinned (“Browns”), with dark eyes and dark hair, and facial features, bone structure and other characteristics consistent with the Mesoamerican Indians, not with Europeans. They’re also listed as being separate from Whites for medical, affirmative action, scholarship, university admission and job application purposes.

    As you probably know, Latinos/Hispanics are given the same accord as “underrepresented minorities” as are Blacks, and constitute a similarly separate ethnic and racial group.

    Although they speak Spanish, not just ethnically and racially but also culturally and historically, Latinos tend to trace their traditions to the native Mesoamerican peoples of the American continent. Their Spanish is inflected with native American cultural elements, and while Spanish unites them (including as a very closely related second language for Portuguese-speaking Brazilians), it’s a vehicle for them as a separate people.

    Again, this is why Latinos in the USA are at the heart of such intense ethnic conflict and frequent strife, with American Whites fearful of becoming a racial minority while the (racially distinct) Blacks and Latinos, which indeed they are becoming. In fact, in states such as California, New Mexico and Texas, and very soon in Florida and Arizona as well, Whites *are* the minority and Latinos will soon be the majority group. This hasn’t yet manifested itself politically but will within 10 years– that’s when millions more Latinos reach voting age.

  25. FROM THE BBC:
    Many Muslims, fed up with what they see as Islamophobia, are upping sticks and heading for the Middle East.

    At Nuzhat al-Sibassi’s family home in south London, the contents are being packed away in boxes, ready to be shipped to the United Arab Emirates.

    Mrs al-Sibassi was born in Britain to Pakistani parents, raised and educated here. She’s worked as a senior hospital manager in the NHS, but is now moving with her family to the United Arab Emirates.

    You feel you are having to constantly prove that you’re not what other people think you are – you always have to be on your guard

    Nuzhat al-Sibassi

    “Living here is not how it was. The politics and the environment has changed and people’s perception of Muslims has changed dramatically. A number of incidents in UK over past 3-4 years have marred life for decent Muslims living here.”

    Mrs al-Sibassi is just one of a growing number of middle class Muslims who are leaving because they no longer feel comfortable living in the country of their birth.

    so there

  26. Also as Abu Sinan points out, while the Mesoamerican/mestizo element of American Latino culture is predominant (with these cultural traditions showing through even in Catholic church ceremonies), there’s also an African element in the mix that’s quite significant. Mexico had millions of Africans brought in during the 1500’s through 1700’s (Spain actually abolished slavery before England and the USA did), as did other Latino countries, and Mexico and other Latin American countries have been among the few to have their African populations almost entirely absorbed within the population in general. Even the relatively tiny “Spaniard” fraction of (USA Latino) blood has a lot of African in it, considering the Moorish conquests, along with of course Celto-Roman-Iberian and Visigothic elements.

    So once again, Latinos in the USA are *not* White– by blood and ethnic background they are predominantly indigenous Mesoamerican and African, and culturally they are quite distinct from the European tradition, also predominantly of Mesoamerican and African background. This is the reason that Whites in the United States are so fearful about their demographic status and their looming status as a minority in the USA by 2025– Latino immigration, in particular, is swamping them out as the dominant group in the United States, especially in the Southwestern states and in Florida.

  27. Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) was of the opinion that Arabs ARE SUPERIOR to Non-Arabs and he claimed that this was the view that was held by the MAJORITY of the scholars.

    He wrote: “And the MAJORITY of scholars are of the opinion that the Arab species (race) is better (Afdal) than the Non-Arab (species) just as the nation of Quraish is better (Afdal) than the Non-Quraishite nations and (just as) the nation of Bani Haashim is better (Afdal) than the Non-Bani Haashim (nations).” Majmoo Al-Fataawa 19/29

    He also wrote: “This was the position of Imam Ahmed (ra) and the MAJORITY of Ahlul Ilm. Iqtidaa As-Siraatil-Mustaqeem 2/421

    Also, refer to what he said in Majmoo Fataawa 27/472.

    This becomes an issue of fiqh:

    For example:

    “If two people have memorized the same amount of the Quran and their knowledge of the Sunnah is the same and both of them made the Hijrah at the same time, which of the two should lead the prayer? Is it the Arab person or the Ajamee?”

    “Can the Wali of a girl refuse an Ajamee man’s proposal for marriage on the grounds he’s an Ajamee?”

    “Is the Khilaafah of the Muslim nation exclusively for the Arabs of Quraish or can Non-Arabs also take up this responsibility of being the Khalifah or Waali of the Muslims?”

    All of these questions were posed to the Ulemah of the past and they answered them in the books of sociology like Ibn Khaldun’s (ra) in his book “Al-Muqaddamah” and in the books of Fiqh.

    Many scholars of the Salaf used to see the issue of the superiority of the Arabs over non-Arabs as being an issue of AQEEDAH and some of them even considered it as being from the FUNDAMENTALS of the Sunnah!

    Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) wrote:

    “Verily, what Ahlul Sunnah is upon: Is the BELIEF (Itiqaad) that the Arab race is better (Afdal) then the Non-Arab race. Whether (the Non-Arabs) are Hebrews, Aramaic, Romans, Persians and other than them”. Iqtidaa As-Siraatil-Mustaqeem 2/419

    Abu Muhammad, Harb ibn Ismail ibn Khalaf Al-Kirmaany (died 280 – ra) who was one of the students and companions of Imaam Ahmed (ra) also mentioned this point when he wrote about the descriptions and BELIEFS of the PEOPLE OF THE SUNNAH.

    He began his treatise by saying:

    “This is the Madhab of the Imams of Ilm and the Ashaab-ul-Athar and (the people of) Ahlus Sunnah who are the ones who are followed (and they) are well known by these (issues).

    And I met those who I met from the Ulemah of Iraq and the Hijaz and As-Sham and other than them and they were upon these (issues).

    Whoever goes against anything from these issues or he criticizes any of them or disparages anyone who says them, then he is a Mubtadi� and he’s outside of the Jamaat and outside of the Manhaj of the Sunnah and the Sabeel of the Haqq!

    And this was the madhab of AHMED, ISHAQ IBN IBRAHIM IBN MAKHLAD (RAAHUWIYAH), and ABDULLAH IBN AZ-ZUBAIR AL-HUMAYDEE and SAEED IBN MANSUR and other than them from those who I sat with and took knowledge from.

    They used to say Emaan (faith) consists of (making) statements, (doing) actions and (having) the Niyyah

    Imam Harb ibn Ismail (ra) then proceeded to mention many of the well known issues of the Aqeedah of Ahlul-Hadith and then he said:

    “And we know the rights of the Arabs and (we know) their VIRTUE and their PRECEDENCE (in the Deen) and we love them because of the Hadith of the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him): Loving the Arabs is from Emaan and hating them is hypocrisy”.

    And we do not say as the Shuoobiyah (those who hate the Arabs) and (as) the lowly ones from the ex-slaves (say) who do not love the Arabs and they don’t recognize their virtues, for verily their statement is a BIDAH and (it’s) in contradiction.

    It should be noted that the Hadith that was used by Imam Harb ibn Ismail ibn Khalaf Al-Kirmaany (ra): “Loving the Arabs is from Emaan and hating them is hypocrisy” is not an authentic Hadith! Even though it’s a famous and widely used Hadith, it should not be used to prove a point in Aqeedah!

    To read the beneficial treatise of Imam Harb ibn Ismail ibn Khalaf Al-Kirmaany (ra) you can go to these books:

    – Tabaqaat-ul-Hanaabilah – Imam Abu Yalaa (ra) 1/145

    – Al-Maqsad-ul-Arshad Fee Dhikr Ashaab-ul-Imam Ahmed Imam Ibn Muflih (ra) 1/354

    – Iqtidaa As-Siraatil-Mustaqeem – Sheikh-ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) 1/145

    This treatise and SUNNAH of Imam Harb ibn Ismail Al-Kirmaany (ra) has also been described as being the actual words of Imam Ahmed (ra) as well.

    In the biography of Imam Abul-Abbass, Ahmed ibn Jafar ibn Yaqub ibn Abdullah Al-Faarisee Al-Astakhrey (ra) it is reported that he (i.e. Imama Al-Astakhrey) said:

    “Imam Ahmed told me and then Imam Al-Astakhrey (ra) proceeded to narrate the words of Imam Ahmed (ra) and they were almost identical to the words that were mentioned in the treatise of Imam Harb ibn Ismail Al-Kirmaany (ra).

    See the biography of Imam Al-Astakhrey (ra) in the book ‘Tabaqaat-ul-Hanaabilah’ by Imam Abu Yalaa (ra) 1/30

    In addition to what has been mentioned, the Imam of the Sunnah and its people – during his time – Imam Abu Muhammad Al-Barbahaaree (died 329 – ra) also mentioned this issue in his famous and beneficial book Sharh-us-Sunnah:

    He said: And (come to) know the superiority of Bani Haashim due to their (blood) relations to the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) and (come to) know the superiority of Quraish and THE ARABS and (the superiority of) all of their sub-tribes. Therefore, know their position and the rights that they have in Islam”. Refer to point #96

    The Imaam and Aalim Ar-Rabbaanee Ibn Abee Asim (died 287 ra) also brought this point forward in his famous book Kitaab-us-Sunnah.

    Similar to the other Aqeedah books that were called Kitaab-us-Sunnah, Imam Ibn Abee Asim’s (ra) book discusses with detailed proofs from the Quran and Sunnah what the correct Aqeedah is according to the Salaf of this Ummah (may Allah have mercy upon them and establish us on their way).

    From pages 618 – 628 Imam Ibn Abee Asim (ra) brings a number of Ahaadith that prove the virtues and superiority of Quraish over Non-Quraishites. See his book with the Takhreej of Imaam Al-Albaani (ra).

    Clearly, these Ahaadith were put in this book of AQEEDAH in order to establish and prove the topic of this subject. That it is from the AQEEDAH of the Salaf to hold to and BELIEVE that the Arabs are better than Non-Arabs!

    Shiekh-ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) said:

    “Know that the Ahaadith (that show) the superiority of Quraish and then the superiority of Bani Haashim are numerous and this is not the place (to gather all of them) but they also prove this (superiority of the Arab over Non-Arabs).

    And this is due to the fact that the relationship of Quraish to the Arabs is just like the relationship of the Arabs to the rest of the people (i.e. Quraishites are superior to Non-Quraishites and the Arabs are superior to Non-Arabs). Verily Allah the Most High has designated the Arabs and their language with Ahkaam that are peculiar and unique.

    And then He preferred Quraish over the rest of the Arabs in what He has given them of prophecy and other than that from the Khasaais (unique and peculiar qualities). Iqtidaa As-Siraat-il-Mustaqeem 2/431

    Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) also said:

    “The superiority of the Arab race and then (the superiority of) Quraish and then (the superiority of) Bani Haashim, is not simply due to the fact the Prophet (peace be upon him) is from them even though this is (a point) of superiority but instead, they themselves are superior within themselves. Iqtidaa As-Siraatil-Mustaqeem 2/420

    For a deeper and more comprehensive look at the many unique and peculiar qualities that Allah has bestowed upon the Arabs, look at what Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) wrote in this regard in his book Al-Iqtidaa 2/447-451.

    He scholastically detailed and described a number of these unique qualities of the Arabs, in a way that will help the Muslim who is balanced, fair and a seeker of the truth Insha Allah to develop a greater understanding and appreciation for who the Arabs really are as a nation!

    He will also began to understand some of the Hikmah as to why Allah DIVINELY chose the Arabs, their language and their lands to serve as the bedrock and foundation of Islam.

    After reading what Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) wrote about them Insha Allah – you will hopefully develop a greater sense of appreciation for certain aspects of their culture and characteristics that caused them to become the vanguard of Islam

    Also, see what Sheikh Bakr Abdullah Abu Zaid said about these unique and peculiar qualities of the Arabs in his beneficial book “Special Characteristics of the Arabian Peninsula” (Khasaais Jazeerat-il-Arab).

    Specifically, take a look at the chapter entitled: “The special characteristics of the Prophet’s people and his kindred” (pg. 67 – 74)

    There is another book that was written by a Hanbali scholar whose name was: Maree Al-Karmy Al-Hanbali (ra) and it’s called: “Masbook-ud-Dhahab Fee Fadl-il-Arab” and it’s a book that supports the idea and notion that Arabs are better than Non-Arabs.

  28. Come on. A military hack like Ralph Peters? In the old days, a retired officer could get a little pocket change by pitching arms sales to the Pentagon. But Congress tightened that loophole. Steyn? That rabid judeofascist low life hasn’t written anything worth reading in his entire sad excuse of a life. With guys like these who needs feeble minded charlatans posing as “experts” on Islam, or anything else for that matter? Hakim and Tariq have got this one figured out.

    PS – Eliza has lied again as her link is false. Tell me dear, are you parents siblings who met each other at the hometown buffet square dance floor?

  29. SALAAM;
    Opinions of the Salaf are exactly that, Opinions. Knowledge is what Allah and his Messenger has stated, everything other than that is merely conjecture, no matter how revered the sheikh or ulama is. Opinions differ from Sheikh to Sheikh, Madhab to Madhab. The revered Salafi Sheikh Fawzan has stated that Slavery is apart of Islam and spoke ill of the Sheikhs, who deny that. (Just uttering a fact that is well known). I’m not speaking ill of the Sheikh, the statement speaks for itself.

    I’ve notice most, if not all the Salaf you name are of the Hanbali Madhab, and no matter how much Salafis today deny it, they follow 95% or more of the Hanbali Madhab. Again, not speaking ill, and not saying that anything is wrong with that, just cited to showed how limited your supposed evidence is.

    Secondly, some of us Muslims speak of the Salaf as if they were one cohesive force that did not differ in anything and lived in perfect harmony, when in reality they themselves were of diverse opinions and understandings and I’m speaking specifically of the Sahaba, who spoke, listen, ate and drank with the Prophet (pbuh) as well from his family. We as Muslim, often ignore the fact that there was a civil war, in which Sahaba fought Sahaba, tabieen vs tabieen and even Ali fought the wife of the Prophet (pbuh). We tend to ignore these fact, because we wish not to speak ill of the Salaf, I respect that, however, we should study the breakdown in order to learn from it.

    Thirdly, Allah (ta ala) measure people by Taqwa and actions, not by lineage or birth right, this perception mirrors what the Jews say about themselves, but we as Muslims call that absurd in that case (Allah (ta ala) also condemns this thinking of Bani Israel), then we Muslims turnaround and apply the same ignorance to ourselves. It’s not being a descendant of Ibrahim’s lineage that makes your special, its having the belief and following the actions of Ibrahim (if it was by lineage then the Jews would have a claim), did Ibrahim speak Arabic. When Allah raises a Prophet, he raises it from amongst the people. In this case, the Kaabah is in Arabia ( rebuilt by Ibrahim and Ishmael, again actions), Ibrahim made a Dua for Allah (ta ala) to send a messenger, purifying the people. Prophet Muhammad is an answer to that Dua, the people around the Kaabah speak Arabic, now you do the math.

    Lastly, the fact that we as Muslims have inherited a mountain of knowledge, does not absolve us, from actually thinking for ourselves. We condemn the world from blindly following what they do and we do the same thing. Lets actually think about what Allah (ta ala) and his Messenger (pbuh) are conveying to us primarily, then take the diverse OPINIONS of the Salaf and Ulama as Nasiha. For when we meet Allah, he will not ask what Sheikh so and so said, but he will ask us of our beliefs and our action. AND ALLAH KNOWS BEST.
    SALAAM

  30. Umar, who inside of the United States actually views the so-called war in Iraq as a war. Please, we are still going to work, watching baseball, laughing at the comedies on television. It’s not taken serious because Iraq is not and was not a threat. They compare Saddam to Hitler that’s a joke; he lacked the monies, capability, technology, army. I mean there was not even an Iraqi navy, the inapt air force was knocked out during the first day of the first Gulf war.

    Post like these agenda is to magnify the problem for the west to take it serious and make money. NOW NOT ONLY ARE THE MUSLIMS, IN THE MIDDLE EAST, AFRICA, AND ASIA, THEY ARE AMONGST US, WITH OUR EUROPEAN ALLIES, THEY’RE EVERYWHERE. THERE GONNA GET US.

    They same way we Muslims tend to see a Jewish conspiracy under every rock, they portray the Islamic Invasion coming from everywhere. I mean you would think that Jails and Prison are all now Madrasah because of the jail house conversion.

    Because Muslim countries look so pathetic and their armies exist mainly to keep their own populations in check, they have to paint an Islamic Boogey man. It like DrM stated but outside of these war-profiting individual, the Pentagon have to justify not only their outlandish budget in general but even more specifically to continue to have Congress readily approve their funding for the war. If I had a quarter for every time I heard from a member of Congress, if we fail in Iraq, it going to be a safe haven and base of operation for Al Qaedah to spread their ideology throughout the region. BOOGEY-MEN.

  31. I provided names of sites, just root around there and you’ll find the info.

    Some of the comments here look like they were written by space aliens or characters from Lord of the Rings, but that’s religion for you.

    Some of the remarks about the peoples of the US are grim, as though no one had good sense or good will.

  32. Hey Libyan,

    I know about your kind, who’d have an Arabic name, be from North Africa, insist they’re not Arabs and in extreme cases that they’re not Muslims.

    Actually I dont have a arabic name, my first name is the name which The Prophet from Beni israel Jesus(PBUH) called the Seal of the Prophets and my last name is derived from my Berber Kabylie(tribe). As far as Berber’s apostateing from the faith….. we leave that to Arab Individuals like Wafa Sultan, Noonie Darwish, and “The Former Plo Terrorist Walid Shabbet”.:P

    I think you haven’t read the hadith, you ignoramus, that loving Arabs is part of a Muslim’s faith.

    My Brother in Den al-Haq I would appreciate it if you refrained from using insults towards a fellow Muslim for this is prohibited in Al_Deen of Islam. Like The Salafi Brother said the hadith which you are speaking of that was used by Imam Harb ibn Ismail ibn Khalaf Al-Kirmaany: “Loving the Arabs is from Emaan and hating them is hypocrisy” is not an authentic Hadith! Even though it’s a famous and widely used Hadith, it should not be used to prove a point in Aqeedah. But loving your brother or sister in the Deen Of Islam is a part of our faith:P Be they a Arab from yemen, a Pashtun from Afganistan, a Slav from Bosnia, or a Imazighen from al-Magreb:P

    Don’t dare talk about the religion they brought to your ancestors..if that’s how you’ll talk about them all the time!

    I am sorry to burst your bubble my Ishmalite friend but the Deen Of Islam is not one which is owned by the Arab Peoples. This deen is for all the dwellers of the Universe. I suggest you crack open the Quran,and read it instead of using it as a wall decore.

    Go lick a Christian or Jewish shoe, become one of them, convert to one of those inferior religions, because it brings a bad name to Islam and Muslims to count you as one of us!!!

    Thank you for the offer, but I think i shall pass. As far as me and my people giving a bad name to Islam last time I turned on CNN it was not a Imazighen who was strapping his 6 yearold daughter with TNT, sending the oung school girl to kill Israeli women and children. as far as Jewish boot liking the Israelites have the Arab League for that.:P

    What have the Arabs done to you, you scumbag???? You claimed once before that they ‘raped our blond girls’, I wonder when was that, fool!

    Its actually happened quite a few times my brother in Deen Al-Haq. Does 1049 ring a bell brother? For those of us who ignorant of hsitory I shall fresh the mind. Inshallah. In 1049 the Imazighen Governers of Tamazgha my Salafa(Rightouse Forebarers”s) abandoned the Shia religion for the Deen Of Al-Haq the Deen of Islam…… This rattled the boots of the Arab Terrorist’s occupying Tamazgha, so in that very year The Fatimad Caliphate sent a arab Confederation known as Banu Hilal into the homeland of My ancestor’ to punish us for converting to Sunni Islam. This tribe quickly defeated the Zirid’s, and deeply weakened my fellow Imazighen The Hammadids in Western algeria(Middle and western Tamazgha) who also rejected the deviant Ishamli Shite Heresy of your Arab Ancestor’s. After this your Ancestor the Caliphate of The Fatimads sent in another band of Arab Shia Terrorist’s The Beni Sulaym… The Beni Sulaym like most Semites despise all things green and like their Jewish Sister Kahina who had invaded Tamazgha a few centuries before following The Christian Saking of Israel… they indulged in their time honoured Scourage the Earth fetish. The Banu Sulaym were composed of four main groups—the Banu Hebib, the ‘Awf, the Debbab, and the Zegb. The Hebib settled in Cyrenaica, while the others went into Tripolitania.

    Thank Allah Almighty for he sent a Mighty KURDISH warrior his majesty liberated us from the arabofacist Cult of shism.

    And what’s up with this ‘blond’ thing??? You really think that all you Berbers are blond because some of you exhibit those traits here or there, so now you’re all, what, descended from the Germanic ancient tribes???

    What about the negroe-like Berbers of Mali and Niger, the Touareg, huh??? Will you defend those? What about all those Yemeni-like Berbers I saw all the time in Morocco??? Will you defend them???

    1. In response to the Berber’s being of Germanic decent their is no evidance to prove such a assertion. While it is true The Germanic Vandal’s of The Christian Faith finished the days of Christian Terror in tamazgha and assimilated with in the local population, this does not explain the “Germanic Feature’s” which the ancient Egyptian’s,Greeks and Roman’s depicted thousands of years earlier. The Berber’s are a Ibero-maurussians peoples.

    As far as Morroco, their is no doubt that many of the folks resemble the Yemites… because they MIGRATED HERE.lol. Not 1300 years ago.lol. as far as the “Negroid” Berber’s, the Tuaraq are a mixture between the Amazigh and our fellow African brother’s whom you call “negroid” in the south. Our culture mingled with theirs in Sub-Saharean Africa. When I speak of Amazigh I am speaking of Jabel Nafouusa, Zuwara, Chawi, High and Middle Atlas, Kabylie, Aures. ect..

    Don’t be so sure about the origin of Berbers, you ignoramus. We’re all descended from one of Noah’s 3 sons like the Quran said.

    Who said I denied we come from the three sons of Noah, eh? I am a proud son of ham, son of Phut. And never once did I state otherwise. Just as you are a proud son of Sham, son of Ishmael? eh?

    And stop those lies about Arabs or Islamists raping your villages; the Muslim conquerers of North Africa were “history’s most merciful conquerers” according to neutral non-Muslim historians!

    I dont recall any Islamist’s in 640C.E.lol. So I am geussing you are conflicting my comments of The Government oppression of the Kabylie in the 90’s.

    And hey, Ibn Khaldun, whatever he said about the origin of Berbers, he’s not the only authority on the subject!!

    True but he is my favorite. I do belive he hit your peoples discription on the head in The Muqaddimah:

    Arabs dominate only of the plains, because they are, by their savage nature, people of pillage and corruption. They pillage everything that they can take without fighting or taking risks, then flee to their refuge in the wilderness, and do not stand and do battle unless in self-defense. So when they encounter any difficulty or obstacle, they leave it alone and look for easier prey. And tribes well-fortified against them on the slopes of the hills escape their corruption and destruction, because they prefer not to climb hills, nor expend effort, nor take risks.

    At any rate, there will never be an independent Tmazighia or whatever you call that The age of nation-states in the Arab world is coming to an end, and the emergence of the Caliphate is fast approaching.

    Inshallah ya Rab. One can only pray for a Caliphate to unite the Ummah. as far as Tamazgha…. the word appeared first 20 century as a response to Arabofacism(Nasserism) it was either Mouloud Mammeri or Kateb Yacine. I have never stated my opposition to one Islamic state uniteing all 52-56 Muslim nation States.

    This nationalistic type of thinking brought to us by the brainless Europeans will be washed away from our lands, along with all those who carry it.

    Well my friend you ushered in the conversation of Nationalism when you stated that it was the colonialists who where trying to divide the Arab Peoples….. Now that you have lost the battle, and your theroy of Berber’s being arabs has been washed away, you turn to Islam.lol. You Arabs never suprise me. Inshallah Pakistan will have a new government and you will be eating chcken Curry and speaking urdu in Mecca soon.:P

    Either that of you shall speak farsi and make Hajj at Karbala, when their you shall get on your hands and knees and kiss the ring of the Grand Ayatollah.lol.

    Pakistan is a Nuclear State, Iran Soon to be a Nuclear state, Turkey has awaken from the Slumber what with the Ak Party(May Allah bless and keep these “Brainless Europeans”) it looks like Daddy has awaken and he is coming back to take Ottaman lands? Was it not these Barin Less European’s for example Umar Pasha from Serbia who was giving you a falga not a century ago in Iraq, or The mindless European from Greece who was kicking your Wahhabi asses in Arabia for questioning the Authority of the Calipha? Was it not the mindless European from albania Ibrahiam Pasha who did more for Egypt then any ruler in its history? The list can go on and on about the contributions these mindless Europeans have given to the muslim Ummah. Was it not these Mindless Europeans who traveled to the Moon while you sat here on Planet Earth trying to comprohend the mindless European Invention of the automobile? Was it not the mindless European’s who created the invention known as the computer the very same invention you are using now?

    Choke to death from vexing, you’ll never see an independent Tmazighia EVER, because like an independent Kurdistan, it cannot happen without Western support, and that we’ll never allow.

    What are you going to do throw hummus at me? Torture me with nancy Ajram video’s? You are the minority in the Magreb not just genetically but Socially… the Berber’s who mkae up 60% in Morroco, and 1/3 of Algeria’s population will not go into the hole in the ground that easy. It seems like you live in the Epic Eurabian fantasy like your Jewish Brother Danial Pipes.:)

    You sit home, speak your language at home or in schools, you’re welcome to have signs in the roads in it, but not in that script that looks like the language of outer space aliens; write it in the Arabic script, and SHUT THE HELL UP. No further dividing of North Africa will be allowed.

    Script that looks like that of Space Alien’s? What a sophisticated and intelectual assertion. And I am the Racist? Weak Comeback dude. :P

  33. “Root around”? For what, Eliza, a comment by a Muslim-hating sewer rat like you? You’d be out of your depth in a parking lot puddle.
    Give my best to Marvin the martian.

  34. ya Berber hater,

    No, don’t think that your “comeback” declares your victory! He laughs more who laughs last.

    Nationalists scumbags like you deserve, indeed, the ruthlessness of fellow National scumbags from among the Arabs. I say you both finish off each other, because even though you throw in some Islamic terminology here or there, that still didn’t make you any better than the Jahili Nationalist Arabs. You are not making any difference between pious Arabs and impious, corrupt Arabs. You are a blind racist, and you are really taking pride in the nothingness your Berber heritage offers (without Islam, the Islam which was brough to you by the Arabs; definitely not the Arabs you hate so much, and you are so arrogant to admit the difference, don’t want to remember the favour of my ancestors on your people and the whole world (and that is not to say that I have done you any favour, for I was born much much later and participated in nothing over the course of history, of course, and I say again: no one asked you to seek barakah from my shoe, or kiss my Arab hand, or bow down to me or give me your chair when I enter a majlis).

    And never should a kid like you dare to think that he can use something I say against me, or think he can win a debate with me. Wait for the next one, and you’ll be shown the small size of your incapable brain, you racist bigot.

    You’d definitely make Tariq ibn Ziyad proud…NOT.

  35. Eliza, you h*e,

    Lord of the Rings are the hallusinations of idiots from your culture, who have nothing to talk about beside sex, music, and fantastical heroes (because your own history is devoid of any heroes and heroes, contrary to ours, so you’d create Superman, Batman, Spiderman, Elektra, because you are, indeed, a “brainless” culture that took away from humanity more than it offered). Don’t you dare liken our talks to the hallusinations of your culture. Go talk about strippers, Paris Hilton in prison, Britney Spears in Rehab, or go count your daily crimes and cases of incest and pedophilia and homosexual marriages instead. That’s what you, Westerners, are good in. And don’t forget to buy a scratch ticket on your way out! Hahahahahaha.

    I step and spit on you and your hollow culture.

  36. OK, let me review here:

    – Non-Arabs are INFERIOR to Arabs and I suppose this is to mean that their culture is superior as well and that the rest of us are to become flunkies for them. We are supposed to speak English in a broken Arab accent and look down upon ourselves

    – The Arabs are to be an upper ruling class while the rest of us are a servant class of “mawalis” as it was in medieval times

    What happened to the equality of men?

    What happened to Islam being for everyone?

  37. Instead of hadith tossing and indulging in race- baiting, our time might be better spent re reading the Prophet saws last sermon and trying to implement it in our lives.

    This thread is a perfect example of why Muslims aren’t taking over anything anytime soon.

  38. Safiya,

    The Muslims were taking over when they held these opinions

    Remember that ibn Taymiyyah said that the MAJORITY of scholars were of the opinion that the Arab race is better than all Non-Arab races just as the nation of Quraish is better than the Non-Quraishite nations and (just as) the nation of Bani Haashim is better (Afdal) than the Non-Bani Haashim (nations).

    This is a significant issue and many MODERN scholars hold this opinion

    If the scholars of the past spent time in writing about the issue of the superiority of the Arabs over the Non-Arabs, then surely that in itself is a proof of its importance and the relevance of us dealing with it today!

    THE ADILLAH OF THE JAMHOOR (MAJORITY):

    PROOF # ONE:

    Zaynab bint Jahsh (ra) said that the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him) entered upon her and he was disturbed and he said:

    [“There is no God worthy of worship but Allah! Woe unto THE ARABS from the evil that has come close”.] Bukhari (#7135) and Muslim (#7164.

    Umm Shuraik (ra) said she heard the Prophet (peace be upon him) say:

    [“The people will run from Ad-Dajjaal by fleeing to the mountains”. So she said: “Yaa Rasoolilah! Were will THE ARABS be at time”? He said, “They will be few (in numbers)”.] Muslim (#7319)

    The scholars of Islam understood these two Hadith and others similar to them as showing the virtues of the Arabs over Non-Arabs because the Prophet (peace be upon him) mentioned THE ARABS – specifically – in describing the whole Muslim Ummah!

    Imam At-tirmidhi (ra) collected the first Hadith (#4187) and he entitled the chapter in which the Hadith is to be found as: THE SUPERIORITY OF THE ARABS

    Also refer to the statements and explanations of these scholars and their books:

    Tuhfat-ul-Ahwadhy Al-Mubaarakfoori (ra) Hadith #4187
    Fath-ul-Baari Ibn Hajr (ra) 13/115
    Fayd-ul-Qadeer An-Manaawee (ra) 6/476
    Bahjat-un-Naadhireen (Riyaad-us-Saaliheen) Saleem Al-Hilaaly (ha) 1/280

    PROOF #TWO:

    Waathilah ibn Al-Asqa (ra) reported that he heard the Prophet (peace be upon him) say:

    [Verily Allah CHOOSE Kinaanah from the children of Ismail, and He CHOOSE Quraish from Kinaanah, and He CHOOSE Bani Haashim from Quraish and He CHOOSE me from Bani Haashim.] Muslim (#2276)

    Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah said:

    This (Hadith) necessitates that Ismail (Alayhi Salaam) and his descendants are the best ones from the children of Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) and it also necessitates that they are better than the children of Ishaq (Alayhi Salaam).

    And what is well known is that the children of Ishaq who are Bani Israail – are the BEST NON-ARABS because of what they (have been given) of prophecy and the Book- Al-Iqitdaa 1/430

    One of Ibn Taymiyyah’s (ra) best and most prolific students – Ibn Katheer (ra) said in his Tafseer-ul-Adheem concerning this point:

    They (Bani Israel) were the noblest of the people during their time from (amongst) the Greeks the Coptics and all the rest of the people. 2/35

    As it relates to this Hadith serving as a proof that shows the superiority of the Arabs over the Non-Arabs, Sheikh-ul-Islam (ra) is referring to what Allah has mentioned in many Ayats of the Quran concerning the superiority that was given to Bani Israel over the rest of mankind (during that time).

    Allah said:

    [And (remember) when Musa said to his people: Oh my people! Remember the favour of Allah upon you when He made Prophets among you (and He) made you kings and gave you what He had not given to any other among the Aalameen.] 6/20

    Allah bestowed favours upon Bani Israel the likes of which the world had never seen prior to that time.

    He split the sea for them and he caused the clouds to shade them from the sun. He also caused Manna and Salwa to rain upon them from the sky and He destroyed and annihilated their enemy who put them to unspeakable trials and tribulations!

    Most importantly, He favoured them over the Aalameen by sending a large number of Prophets to them.

    As the Prophet (peace be upon him) informed us, every time a Prophet from them died, another Prophet would come and take his place in guiding the affairs of Bani Israel. Bukhari (#4920)

    In some cases, Allah blessed them with having sent them two to three Prophets who lived with them at the same time! Like in the case of Yaqub living during the time of his son Yusuf and Daud living side by side with his son Sulayman and Zakariyyah living during the same time of his son Yahya and his nephew Isa and his niece Maryum.

    And finally, the case of Musa living during the time of his brother Haaroon and Yusha ibn Nun! (Salawaatu Allah Wa Salaamuhu Alayhim Jameean).

    Therefore, the Qurun proves that Bani Israel who were Ajamees – were the BEST OF THE AALAMEEN – due to the favours Allah bestowed upon them and – according to Sheikh-ul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah ra) this Hadith of Waathilah (ra) proves the Arabs are better than Non-Arabs because Allah has favoured the descendants of Ismail (Alayhi Salaam) over the descendants of Ishaq (Alayhi Salaam) and Allah knows best!

    PROOF #THREE:

    Ibn Umar (ra) reported the Prophet (peace be upon him) said:

    [This affair will not cease to remain with Quraish as long as there are two people.] Bukhari (#3495) and Muslim (#1818)

    Jubair ibn Matam (ra) said that he heard the Prophet (peace be upon him) say:

    [The Quraishy (person) has (been given) the strength of two (Non-Quraishy people).]

    This Hadith has been collected in the Hadith book of Imam ABU DAUD AT-TAYLASAALEE (#951) – not to be confused with the author of the famous Hadith book Sunan Abee Daud that was authored by Imam Abu Daud Sulaymaan AS-SAJISTAANY(ra) -.

    Imam Abu Nuaym (ra) also recorded this Hadith in his book Hilyat-ul-Awliyaa when he wrote the biography of the Imam of the Dunyah Abu Abdillah, Muhammad ibn Idris As-Shaafiee (ra) who was a Quraishy man Masha Allah!

    The Imam from the Taabieen, Muhammad ibn Shihaab Az-Zuhri (ra) was asked:

    What is the meaning of the Hadith concerning the Quraishy man being given the strength of two people not from Quraish? He replied: They have been given a sharp intellect!

    PROOF #FOUR:

    The famous Hadith of Al-Irbaad ibn As-Saariyah (ra) in which the Prophet (peace be upon him) said:

    [“Verily the one who lives from amongst you will witness a lot of differing. Therefore, (you should) take my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the RIGHTLY GUIDED KHALIFAHS. Bite on them with your molars]. Ahmed 4/126

    Sheikh-ul-Islam, Ibn Taymiyyah (ra) said:

    Verily Umar (ra), when he used to distribute the Deewaan-ul-Ataa (salary register) he would give to the people according to their lineage. He began (by giving to those) who were closest in their lineage to the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him).

    After he finished giving to the Arabs, he then began to distribute (the monies) to the Ajam (Non-Arabs)!

    This was the way of the Deewaan during the time of (all of) the RIGHTLY GUIDED KHALIFAHS (as well as) all of the Khalifahs of Bani Umayyad and the Abbasiyyeen and then it was changed after that. Al-Iqtidaa 1/446

    [For further discussion of this practice of Umar (ra) see what the Imam and the Hujjah, Abu ‘Ubayd, Al-Qaasim ibn Salaam (ra) said in his beneficial book ‘Kitaab-ul-Amwaal pg 235 -237.]

    Further, during the time of the Ummayids, non-Arabs were not allowed to lead the prayers. They were not allowed to ride horses, marry into Arab families, or administer governmental or religious affairs. As a rule, non-Arabs were not allowed to perform funeral prayers for a deceased Arab.

    Furthermore, the non-Arabs did not have the right to marry off their daughters without prior permission from an Arab.

    Lastly, Al-Imam, Al-Haafiz, Ibn Rajab Al-Hanbali (ra) also referred to the issue of the Deewaan of Umar (ra) in his book Jaami Uloom Wal-Hikm 2/121-126.

    Since Umar (ra) placed the Arabs ahead of the Non-Arabs in the distribution of the salaries and the companions allowed this to take place, this is a clear proof of the correctness of this position

    If anyone has PROOF to refute this from the Quran and Sunnah then ahlan wa sahlan…otherwise be SILENT

  39. Eh, I guess my Berber ‘brother’ would retrack now (but won’t do so in public out of pride) because he would have loved to be an Arab after all these proofs! Hahahaha :D

    Jazaak Allah khair, my Salafi brother. I assure you (not that idiot) that I’m not racist or nationalist like that guy! Is it wrong to promote one of the theories about the Berbers being from Arabian origin? That guy took great offense as if I’m saying Berbers evolved from chimpanzees!!!! I mean, he could have POLITELY said: “no, brother, we belong to a different race, and here are my proofs..”, but he chose to degrade all Arabs because of the once-Shia Arabs ruling North Africa, the weak post-colonial Arab regimes, etc etc!!! What a stupid kid!!! I really cannot show respect to his likes!!! The fool is judging me by the bad deeds of others who happen to belong to my race!!! How fair is that??? Of all Arabs ever existing, I take pride in being related to those who conquered the known world in the dawn of Islam, and those who will re-conquer it again (and already started), who are now in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya & Palestine. All us don’t matter to me. And all I can say is that I love the Mujahidin, but I’m not one of them.

    Later.

  40. Islam appears to be an ancient arab thing. Take old arab name, wear old arab clothes, learn arabic, meditate on glorious days of old arab bandit gang. Discuss whom to kill and how, and the proper way to beat up women.

    Live in the mode of many centuries past – yes, it’s Lord of the Rings all right.

  41. We are all equal in the eyes of God. The only thing that makes us distinct from each other is our piety. Anything else contradicts the words and will of Allah and is thus from Satan.

    This talk of one group being superior to another is not Islamic.

  42. Another way it resembles the L of the R, besides the costumes, is the tribal warfare. The elves against the gnomes, the Hoo against the Ha. Keep it up boys! The world moves on.

  43. If anyone has PROOF to refute this from the Quran and Sunnah then ahlan wa sahlan…otherwise be SILENT

    1. First off all might I add the word’s of Ibn Taymiyyah are of NO validity. Seeing as how the man was a criminal, who died in his cage in Damascus where he belonged.

    2. The Prophet’s farewell speach is as clear as it gets. O People! Your God is one; your father is one; no preference of an Arab neither over non-Arab nor of a non-Arab over an Arab or red over black or black over red except for the most righteous. Verily the most honored of you is the most righteous.”

    This position of the Speach is a reaffirmation of Quran 49:134, and 4:125.
    As far as the Hadith which you mentioned, no off which state the Superiority of arab’s might I add, I can neither accept them nor reject them , until I see the chain of narrator’s. Bukari’s collection has many error’s which have been exposed in recent time. Maybe the “Inferior Weak-Minded European” whom your cult takes great honour in following Sheik Al-Albani missed those mistakes when he was going over his collection. but then again as you stated those weak minded European’s, eh waht can ya do:P

    but might I add the deranged Salafi’s insane speculation’s and theory’s should only be more proff to my theroy that Arabs must be watched.

    What happened to the equality of men?

    What happened to Islam being for everyone?

    Well my friend it is….. Its for all the dwellers of the Universe. But of those dweller’s their is a group of people known as the Arabs amongst them… Who like their brothers in Linage Benu Israel, enjoy manipulating the words of Allah for their own worldly gain…. Political Correctness will not help us, Yousef, we must find the Arabofacists and exterminate them wherever they may be. for the Good of the Ummah. And unfortunatly we must watch the Arabs VERY closley. While all Arabs are not Arabofacist’s a good chunk are.

    They are perverters of the Deen. Not only this but time and time again they have alligned with the Kuffar to undermine the Ummah, most recently the Allaiance with the Christian’s against the Ottaman Caliphate. They are truley the enemies of Islam. Read the history of the Arab people’s and you shall see that it is always the Arabs who are working to undermine the Ummah. They are tricky creature’s these Semite’s. But Inshallah someone will put them back in place, maybe the nice lesbian women Lynndie England with her leash:P

    but he chose to degrade all Arabs because of the once-Shia Arabs ruling North Africa

    Heaven’s No. I am mearly being practicual. The persecution continiues to this Day do you not remember Black September in Kabylie in 2001?

    The only reason I became defensive was because of your Pan-Arabistic Arabofacist hatemongering, where you began to spew baseless Nazi-eaq rethoric of “Arab Land” this and colonial “conspiracy” that.

    What a stupid kid

    Insulting the one whom you are debating is the Ultimate sign of inferiority.:P

    Since you are not intelectually reigorus enough top counter my statements you take to childish name calling.

    Of all Arabs ever existing, I take pride in being related to those who conquered the known world in the dawn of Islam, and those who will re-conquer it again (and already started), who are now in Iraq, Afghanistan, Chechnya & Palestine

    LOL. Now who is stupid? The Arab’s where a cancer in Chechnya, and Dargestan, as well as Bosnia and Kosovo. The Arabs brought the fall of the Taliban, and the whole bloody Afghan state! Like I stated you people have been and always will be the scourage of this ummah. The future of Islamdom in my opinion lies not with genital mutilating, feminicidal, child abusers whom inhabit Arabia, but with the proud people of Pakistan and the Sub-Continent, as well as the brothers in Malaysia and Indonesia. The Arabs are the Muslim Ummahs burden, we must tolerate you because of our respect and love for the Prophet(SWS) and because you inhabit our Holy Land’s but if you think that we shall allow you to continue to commit treason against this ummah, you sir are SADDLY mistaken.

  44. All I can say is that I love the Mujahidin, but I’m not one of them.

    Whom are these Mujahidin you speak of? Their is no Caliphate…. who dispatched them? I am afraid these folks are nothing more then Mischeif maker’s under Islamic Law.

  45. People can point to all of the scholars they want. For every scholar that says one thing, you can find half a dozen or more who say the exact same thing and point to evidence they think proves it.

    If I wanted a religion where I relied on listening to men to tell me what to think and what to believe without using my own brain I’d be a Catholic.

    I am a Muslim and I, before anyone else, am the best judge of what is right. No man is responsible for my actions or beliefs but myself, so why entrust in these men what they are not responsible for.

    As a Muslim I dont need anything else but the word of God in The Qur’an to tell me what is right and what is wrong. Everything else relies on men, and men are fallable.

    The idea of that one race of people is above another contradicts the entire spirit of The Qur’an, so I dont care who says Arabs are racially superior, they can roast in Hell because their words are abhorant to God Himself.

    I dont need a scholar, a priest, a Rabbi or an Imam to tell me what is common sense.

  46. What is the definition of an Arab? According to the Hadeeth of Rasululah (SAW), one who has mastered the Classical Arabic language is an Arab. Hence, this notion of the “ethnic” superiority of the Arab is contrary to the words of the Messenger, both according to his final sermon, and the reality that to be “Arab” is a product of a linguistic definition according to the Rasululah(SAW). So your attempt to use the OPINIONS and actions of others to justify the superiority of the “Arabs” is rather spurious. You have not addressed the issue that the Rasul in his FINAL SERMON made it clear that an ARAB is NOT BETTER than a NON-ARAB.

  47. Lord of the Rings are the hallusinations of idiots from your culture, who have nothing to talk about beside sex, music, and fantastical heroes (because your own history is devoid of any heroes and heroes, contrary to ours)

    What the hell are you talking about. The Lord of the rings is a grand epical work of Nordic Mythology. What Mythology do the arabs have? The Temple of Shebba.lol.

    Don’t you dare liken our talks to the hallusinations of your culture. Go talk about strippers, Paris Hilton in prison, Britney Spears in Rehab, or go count your daily crimes and cases of incest and pedophilia and homosexual marriages instead.

    WHAT!
    Look who is talking, your beloved arab culture has produced Elissa and the slew of,of Arab Whores on LBC? Paris Hilton and Britany Spear’s are non-Muslim’s they have a escuse for their primative behavior.
    Pedophilia? Is it in America or Bahrain where men in their 70’s have sexual intercourse with female babies, by pleasuring themselves between their thighs? Yes these folks are Shia’s but they are Arabs none the less. The arabs have no right to charge anyone with Pedophilia.lol. You animals have even gone as far as to state that our beloved prophet married Ayasha(RA) when she was 5 and that he consomated the marriage when she was 9!
    ^ Sahih Muslim, Book 8, Number 3310
    ^ Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 64
    ^ Sahih Bukhari Volume 7, Book 62, Number 88

    Even though these hadith’s have been proven as weak due to the fact that Hisham ibn `Urwah is the only one to report this hadith on the authority of his father. First of all, more people than just one, two or three should logically have reported.

    It is strange that no one from Medina, where Hisham ibn `Urwah lived the first 71 years of his life narrated the event. Given Asma’s age Aisha had to be at least 16 at the time of her bethrotal.
    http://www.ilaam.net/Articles/Ayesha.html

    But arab’s are Child Molesting perverts, so what do you expect as salafi has shown us every sick and perverted idea they have they try to justify it either by fabricated hadith’s or outlandish. Look what your own women have to say!

  48. OPINIONS OF THE SALAF,

    You say bring proof from the Qur’an or Sunna or remain silent. However, the title of your post contradicts that “OPINIONS OF THE SALAF”. Whereas brothers have spoken of the spirit of the Qur’an and quoted several time’s the Prophet’s (pbuh) last sermon when the Prophet (pbuh) himself has directly addressed and refuted all you have stated as well as those you quoted. If you are sincere and sincerely seek truth, then at the very least respond to the Prophet’s last sermon.

    Despite that, you have intentionally and directly opposed the words of the Prophet (pbuh). This alone speaks volumes about your level in the Deen.

    May Allah (ta ala) forgives us all.

  49. A gut feeling tells me that some of the ‘Arab Superiority’ hadiths were encouraged/fabricated by the Ummayyad/Abbasid dynasties to justify their rulership over the Islamic territories. Only God knows, of course, this is mere speculation. Racism was one of the ills that brought the Ummah down, a disease that the Prophet (sws) tried to eradicate, his friendship with Bilal being a powerful example of the capacity to transcend race, culture and social status. There is nothing wrong with praising your own people or emphasizing the virtues of the Arab people, but it’s a totally different story when Arabs are deemed superior to other peoples only based on their ethnicity. The Arabs and Jews have recieved a great line of prophets, that is true, and it could be said that the Arabs at the time of the Prophet were the ‘best’ people in the sense that they were the upholders of the message of Islamic monotheism. But they have no monopoly over the truth, every nation has recieved a guide/prophet as the Koran puts it, and Islam is sent to ALL people and not just the Arabs. Digging up spurious hadiths and relying on the Salafi-favorites Ibn Taymiyyah and Ibn Kathir to justify Arab superiority undermines the message of Islam, and ignores its multi-cultural achievements as a civilization. Many of Islam’s great scholars were non-Arabs, such as Al-Ghazali, a Persian, who were previously the great enemies of the Arabs, another example of Islam’s capacity to unite different ethnic groups and civilizations through faith.

  50. A gut feeling tells me that some of the ‘Arab Superiority’ hadiths were encouraged/fabricated by the Ummayyad/Abbasid dynasties to justify their rulership over the Islamic territories.

    Umayyad, most likely. The Umayyad Caliphate of Damascus was a racist, Arab-supremacist state – that’s why it was overthrown, as the Persians (with their powerful cavalry) backed the Abbasids against them…

  51. Libyan fool,

    that Bahraini woman in the video is taking about strictly Shia practices and forms of “marriages”, not those of all Arabs and or Islam, you idiot!!!

    I’ll finish slapping you around later, I think I haven’t started yet.

  52. On the authority of ‘Aamir ibn Waathilah, he said that Naafi’ ibn ‘Abdil-Haarith met up with ‘Umar (ibn Al-Khattaab) at (a place called) ‘Usfaan. ‘Umar used to put him (Naafi’) to work (to govern) over Makkah.

    So he (‘Umar) said, “Who have you put to work (to govern) over the people of the Valley (Makkah)?”

    He (Naafi’) said, “Ibn Abzaa.”

    He (‘Umar) said, “Who is Ibn Abzaa?”

    He (Naafi’) said, “One of our freed slaves.”

    He (‘Umar) said, “So you have put a freed slave in charge of them?”

    He (Naafi’) said, “Verily he is a recitor of the Book of Allaah, the Mighty and Majestic, and verily he is knowledgeable of the laws of inheritance.”

    ‘Umar said, “Verily your Prophet (sallallaahu ‘alayhe wa sallam) had said:

    “Verily Allaah raises some people by way of this Book and lowers others by it.”

    Saheeh Muslim #1894 (3/339 of Sharh An-Nawawee)

  53. As-Salaamu ‘alaikum,

    To come back to what Tariq Rob said about Muslims in Europe, there are important differences in the make-up of the Muslim communities in France, Germany and the UK. Those in Germany come mostly from Turkey, and Turkey had recently emerged from a period of state hostility to Islam when the Turks migrated to Germany. All this was well before the era of Refah and the AKP. A fairly large percentage of them were already separated from their religion in all but name, and parts of Turkey (which aren’t tourist traps) have among the highest alcohol consumption rates in Europe. Not all people from Turkey are Turks (many are Kurds) and a fairly large percentage are Alevis and there are also a fair few communists there too.

    Similarly, in France, the country brought people from rural areas to do unskilled jobs, because it was imagined that they would be unlikely to form unions. In both countries, religious people are much weaker among the Muslim communities than they are in the UK, and respect for religion is much stronger here. At least in official places like schools, people are usually allowed exceptions from the norm on the grounds that it is mandated by their religion, which is not always the case on the Continent. (This isn’t always the case in the workplace, though.)

    The problems we face are not all to do with state persecution. The UK is a crowded country, with almost as large a population as France in half the space, and even less of that is productive land. London in particular is crowded, for various reasons but among them is the fact that London welcomes people who are different in ways that Paris and most other European cities don’t, and because we speak English here and not a tribal European language. However, this means that housing costs are sky-high, particularly in any part of the city that is not infested with riff-raff (such as those who chased a 16-year-old boy on bicycles in the early hours of this morning and then shot him dead, the 17th this year).

    I personally don’t have the confidence that I could raise a family in London; I don’t want my kids in an inner-city school, or indeed any public school, particularly at secondary level. I would quite like to move to a rural area, but I believe that for such a move to be successful, a cluster of Muslim families would have to move, rather than just one or two (there was talk about this among some Shaikh Nazim followers in south London a few years ago, but only one family moved, to rural south Wales). I am less worried about state persecution than about sky-high living costs and taxes, and societal collapse and crime.

  54. Peters is right on.

    But we need to beat Adolf’s score by at least a factor of ten.

    60 million muslims up in smoke.

    That’s a beautiful thing.

  55. @ “Muslims are Vermin”:

    You are talking like that because some Muslims killed a little less than 3000 people on American soil?

    FYI, America directly or indirectly caused the death of more than TWENTY Million Muslims in the 20th century alone!!!!

    If you will rejoice over massacring more millions of Muslims, then your likes shouldn’t blame the Muslims who celebrated or continue to celebrate the 911 attacks!!! Each side will continue to get his revenge from the other, and this will go on forever.

    What has Muslims done you? If it weren’t for us, only God knows where you Europeans (if you’re one) would be without the Islamic civilization and al-Andalus, even the Arabic language (I’ll post an article soon on one of my blogs on the Arabic origin of many words in European languages, even European cities -more than just Madrid now!).

  56. The problems we face are not all to do with state persecution. The UK is a crowded country, with almost as large a population as France in half the space, and even less of that is productive land.

    The population density of England is 389 per square kilometre, higher than Japan’s at 337 per square kilometre. And although the mountains of Britain are not very high, they are still inhospitable (if you want to know why, remember that Liverpool is at a similar latitude to Goose Bay, Canada).

  57. Not only does Islam have lots of rules and demands similar to some Christian denominations, it has a violence problem and lots of ridiculous clergy. It has the characteristics of a lunatic fringe. The rising generations will dump it.

    They will want dance halls and skating rinks.

  58. Salaam

    Hussam as you can see by the statements made by “Muslim’s are Vermin”, individuals like himself only benfit by our fighting. I dont think that he will ask the Muslim the little Muslim children before he puts them in to the oven if they are is Berber or Arab………When he plans to kill us, he will be doing it for one reason, and one reason only, and that is because we say Their is no God but Allah and the Prophet Muhammed(PBUH) is messenger. So maybe this whole conversation between me and you is silly.

  59. Umayyad State found opposition in the Abbasids but the battle against ‘tameez unsuurii’ (race discrimination) was led on intellectual grounds through the ‘shu’ubiyah’ (peoples) movement. It was the peoples movement and the people in question (Persians) were unlikely to play second fiddle to tribal Arabs and once the conquests were over and the State building was to be achieved the Persian brilliance soon made its impiact on every aspect of Islamic life. It is not without significance that

  60. Bukkhari originated from Persian speaking home (as did Ahmad Hanbal who was concieved in Merv). That Islams’ great minds were seldom Arabs points not to racism but the fact this deen is not some tribal cult. I’m student of the Hanbali madhab but know the school had an internal Ikhtilaf doctrine. What the Great Ibn Taymiyyih said must be respected but the man was not a Prophet (what he meant by Arabs would have been enough to exclude most of today’s alleged Arab countries from the term) while he was born in a place that is now in Turkey, and the Post Modernist here will sense the ‘essentialism’ that men of the past found hard to overcome. Further, he was living at the end of the Abbasid Caliphate when Mogols were raping and destroying. His appeal to this ‘Arab Hadith’, his mining of ethnic favours in the Quran must be understood as a
    contextual hermeneutics. It is not without symbolic interest that much of modern Salafi understanding of this deen owes its endeavours to a man who has the name of a European country after his honorific title (Shaykh Al Albanni, ra)

  61. Umar,

    What you think of all this ?

    This post has caused a huge response, but not related to the topic of the post. I can’t believe that a Muslim is trying to use “at most” a couple hadith of the Prophet (pbuh) in which the Prophet (pbuh) used the word Arab and use that to extrapolate, that it was used to indicate the superiority of Arabs in the Ummah.

    And ignore the fact, that in the Prophet’s last sermon, he conclusively and decisively addressed the issue at hand.

    However, some of us Muslims find the Quran and the Sunna of the Prophet (pbuh) to limiting so we use the hadiths:

    a. Of following the Sunna of the Rightly Guided Khalifahs
    b. Hadith describing the three pious generations

    To expand the perceived limitations. Again, ignoring the facts after the death of the Prophet and the trials and tribulations of the Sahaba, tabieen, and tabi’ tabieen went through, the some of the Sahaba and tabieen engaged in warfare against other, I mean the Prophet’s grandchildren children were murdered, head cut off, it seems Muslims follow that sunna as well.

    Should we follow their sunna ? No, we take what was good and leave aside that which was not, they were not the Prophet.

    But now some of us Muslims find the Quran, Sunna of the Prophet, Sunna of the Khalifahs, Sunna of the three generations to limiting and now we added the OPINIONS OF THE SHUYUKH. Some of which, speak upon issues that Allah and his Messenger were silent.

    Look at what this constant expansion of “what Islam is”, has caused. Some Muslim consider it totally legitmate to strap a bomb on themsleves and blowing up innocent women, children, men and in most cases Muslim, as being Jihad in the cause of God. Had we relied solely on the Qur’an and Sunna, would this be the case ?

  62. May Allah bless and have mercy on those who seek truth and guidance.

    Peace brothers and sisters in faith

    According the article at which so many comments have derived from, it seems the increase of Islam is a very significant topic,which of course, it is.

    Hmm, Now I’m not Sheiykh or Scholar… but it seems to me as that regardless of the outcome or response of naturalized, I guess you would say or aboriginal Europeans lol, Islam will follow the plan that Allah in His most Definate and Mighty Wisdom has set. That being said, I shall ask questions… What are muslims to do? Well, what is the job of a muslim? What is the purpose of man? The Answer: Submit to Allah SubhanawataAllah. We are all of Bani Adam. If Europeans embrace Islam Alhamdulillah.They our helping their own individual selves as we our helping our own individual selves. Us Being Muslim does not Enrich Allah’s Bounty. If Europeans avert their hearts toward Islam, then so be it. The Qu’ran is a Glorious Book and reminder Alhamdulillah. It is upon the muslims to follow the Qu’ran and to be more wary about our own actions in handling Allah’s creation than how those who reject and hate our faith handle us. In addition, the aversion of mankind to truth does not lessen Allah’s Bounty so averting from Submittance is a thing they will have to deal with.We as muslims, unlike some of those who are not of the faith, know. So in the heat of the battle do we do as the Children of Israel, (any scholar of Theology, Christian,Jew,or Muslim can attest to this) Hear and disobey, when we as muslims have a Surah sent down called Al Furqan within the Glorious Qu’ran in which itself as a whole is a mercy from Allah SubhanawataAllah? Or do we strive to become shining examples of the Muttaqun, the pious inshaAllah?

    And all of this talk about supremacy of races, spare me the rhetoric. To muslims who think they superior because of their ethnicity, read the Qu’ran and see how Allah dealt with the Arrogant. Allah speaks of it in the Qu’ran. Brothers, Sisters, we should know better.
    Love Allah and Fear Allah. Strive in the Cause of Allah and seek His Forgiveness.
    InshaAllah Allah blesses us with in this life and in the Hereafter inshaAllah

    AsSalaamu Alaikum Brothers and Sisters

  63. How many Palestinians does it take to change a lightbulb?
    None. They sit in the dark and curse the Jews.

    They also have one group shooting men with beards, another shooting the clean shaven. I suppose men will be driven to wearing burkas.

    So if Hilton and Spears are exhibiting “primitive behavior” because they are non muslims, what is the reason for the horrible behavior of many muslims?
    An infidel would say Islam is to blame.

  64. abdul –
    you say that the job of the muslim and the purpose of man is to submit to allah. if man (non-muslim) does not submit to allah, then what is the job of the muslim? you dismiss talk of muslim superiority based on ethnicity, but seem to suggest muslim superiority based on faith. are you implying that non-muslim europeans “need” help and that help can be found only through islam? that idea might also be considered arrogant. does the qu’ran address this arrogance of the faithful over the non-faithful? i’m not attacking you, please understand. i respect your position and that you did not feel it necessary to attack any of the other commenters on this board with the hate that so many here have. however, as one who is not a follower of the qu’ran or a consultor of scholars and has read a great deal of talk of the spreading of islam by the sword and islamicised europe and caliphates and the like, i do understand why west has concerns over the spread of islam.

  65. May Allah Bless and have Mercy on those who seek the truth and guidance.

    Mr. Moe,

    Thank you for your comments and your concerns. My comments were based on the article 2 of the three ways I believe Steyn said Europeans would split with the spread of Islam in Europe. Am I implying non muslim Europeans need help? Am I suggesting superiority based on faith?
    hmm…

    Let me address your questions in the order you asked if you please.

    1. Suggesting superiority based on faith?

    Allah knows Best, and may Allah bless my words to convey to you in a clear way inshaAllah.

    In Islam, the muslims are reminded in the Holy Qu’ran of how to be a good believer. There is no arrogance in me being a muslim and you being a non-muslim because ( and I hope you take this the right way inshaAllah) the deeds in which you do, do not burden me, you will be judged by God by what your hands brought forth and so will I. So in that, we’re in the same boat. What does separate us, is, and I am not aware of your religious denomination, but if you are a Christian or Jew, is of most your belief in the Messengership of Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h). I say this because we Believe in the same God as the Christians and the Jews, (unless one of these religions say that Jesus is God or Eligah is God or so on, no we don’t believe that) We believe in the Oneness of God as Prophet Abraham believed in the Oneness of God and he was every submittant to God, and he was neither a Christian or Jew,or a “Muslim” by namesake religion, but from him came these great nations and religions. So if you believe in the God of Abraham than there is our common ground. After Abraham came many Prophets and Messengers of God of whom Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) was the last. When Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.)’s revelations were revealed they were to mankind. Muslims are those recognize his Messengership and follow the message. But his message was to mankind, all of us are part of mankind, which in a blunt manner, I say the message is for you as well as Europeans and all people who have no idea of Islam is. So I can’t be arrogant, as a muslim, I strive to believe in God and do good deeds. I recognize the Prophets that came before Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) and Prophet Muhammad. Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) being seal or the last of the great line of Prophets, I follow his message. Just as you recognize Moses and you follow the ten commandments and you recognize Jesus and you try to follow his example, then if you are able to recognize the Messengership of Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) as a Messenger of God, then follow his example and what he revealed. The source of the revelations of Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h) and Moses and Jesus and Abraham is God. Even in the time of Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.), Christians, Muslims, and Jews were able to live in peace. So it’s entirely up to you if you believe in Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h)’s messengership. But if you do then hear and obey. Hear and Obey because the revelation comes from God and we all believe in the same God.

    As to your second question.

    Am Implying non-muslim Europeans need help?

    I believe I answered that also. It’s not a thing of who’s better or who’s needs help. We’re all human beings. If you love God and I love God then that’s good. If you don’t know about Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.), you should , he was Messenger of God too,the last one. Hear and Obey, we all need help.
    I really hope that you understand what I’m trying to say inshaAllah.

    And this thing about Islam being spread by the sword. Islam is a very peaceful religion. Islam is also the middle way. We, as I stated before, are suppose to follow guidelines and restrictions, disciplines, criterion on how we live our lives during war and peace. More than anything else though through out this last thousand or so years, the message has reached the people, and that’s why Islam is spreading and continues to spread, not necessarily because of the sword.

    Allah knows best and Allah is our Judge.
    Allah is God. ( really it’s the arabic word for God)

    May Allah bless and bestow His Mercy on those who seek truth and guidance.

  66. P.S to Mr. Moe

    And let me just state, I’m not saying that by being a muslim I cannot be arrogant, no. I, myself, am not arrogant because of what I believe in. As muslims, we are to submit to God’s Will. As creations of God, we should all submit to God’s Will.

    Thank you.

    May Allah bestow his Blessings on those who seek Truth and Guidance.

  67. Brooklyn Moe

    You stated, “great deal of talk of the spreading of islam by the sword and islamicised europe and caliphates and the like, I do understand why (the) west has concerns over the spread of islam.”

    I think, you should look at this in the context of history, The West initiated the Crusades, European Countries, colonized almost all non-European countries, Asia, Africa, Americas and in particular the lands of the Muslims. The Europeans countries, divided, carved, and made up new countries and drained these places of their resources and imposed their way of life on the countries they colonized. Even outside of the Muslim World, America, ethnically cleansed the Native Americans and ensalved African from West Africa, which is mostly Muslim. Spain annihilated the peoples and culture of Latin American. America dropped an atomic bomb on civilian populations in Japan. The World Wars were pre-dominated western wars of ideology and resulted in the most deaths that the human history has ever known.

    In your qutoe above, if you take word Islamicised, Europe, caliphates and Islam out and replace it with the word Westernize, Muslims, Presidents, and Democracy, you will see this has already been done and continue to be done by the West and Muslims have concerns over the spread of this.

  68. Salamaat,

    AstaghfurAllah at some of the comments on this site. Umar I have been engaged with these ideas for some time now as well, and it seems an intractable problem when secular left ideology is promoted. This is what happens when moderation is eskewed and people fall to extremism.

  69. Eliza, dont sit here on your high horse judging something you know very little about. Unfortunately your thinking seems to be akin to the methodology of warlocks, who think they are highly rational human beings yet their minds are as dogmatic as any medieval Taliban. Another term for it: Enlightenment Fundamentalists.

  70. hakim –
    you’re point is well taken. the treatment by the us government of the native americans and the period of slavery in this country are both regrettable episodes in american history. however, if we’re to look at things in the context of history, it would only be fair to also look at islam in the context of history. what of the muslim attack on india in sindh in the year 715 C.E.
    led by the mohammad bin qasim? and the neighboring kingdom of multan? and the unsuccessful invasion of malibah? entire cities were burnt down and the populations massacred, and hundreds of thousands more deported as slaves. there was a near annihilation of the hindu population at the hands of the muslims. you speak of spain? what of the berber invasion of spain in 711 C.E.? spain became a muslim colony until the reconquista. and the invasion of austria? and france? but for the defeat of al ghafiqi at the battle of tours (balâ ash-shuhadâ’) europe may well have succumbed to the muslim invasion and occupation. was not the first crusade begun in 1095 to reclaim the holy land from the muslims (i’m no christian, and certainly not defending the crusades, but simply asking the questions that seem important to this discussion). what were the muslims doing in jerusalem in 1100?
    were they not there by conquest? by virtue of islamic imperialism – the extension of dar al-islam by holy war: jihad? the muslim’s attempted conquest of the world is one of the most impressive and brutal in history:
    630 – muhammad conquers mecca from his base in medina.

    632 – muhammad dies; islam controls the hijaz.

    636 – conquest of syria (christian land). victory in battle over the byzantines gives syria and the surrounding lands, all christian – including palestine and iraq – to the caliph.

    636 – 642 persia conquered by the muslims.

    642 – conquest of egypt. the arab/muslim conquest moves west along north africa into non-arab/non-muslim lands.

    711 – tariq invades spain.

    732 – muslim invasion of france is stopped at the the battle of tours.

    In this 100 year period of time the arab/muslim realm extended from the hijaz to encompass syria, palestine, iraq, persia, egypt, coastal north africa, spain and for a short time, part of france.

    when the turks became dominant in the muslim world in the 1300’s the muslims , under the ottoman empire, again invaded europe:

    1453 – muslim turks conquer christian constantinople and make it the seat of the caliphate

    1456 – muslims conquer athens

    1478 – serbia, bosnia, crimea come under ottoman control

    1480 – otranto, in italy, taken by the ottomans

    1529 – vienna attacked by the ottomans

    1683 – battle of vienna, wwi, defeat of ottoman empire. here we are.

    so sure…there are problems with us foreign policy today. but to suggest, in the context of history, that the west has been been murderous and imperialistic, without also speaking of islam in the context of history, would be somewhat misleading, no?

  71. Muslims are slaughtering each other and think they are superior because they would put a scarf on Paris Hilton.

    The flow of knowledge coming from the printing press helped plunge Christianity into years of blood and flames. Maybe the Info Age is having the same effect on Islam.

  72. Mr. Moe

    You forget, the time of this muslim conquest was also the time of much enlightenment as to where many of the feats in which we boast about today have their origin. Now in the interim of the Crusades, or Roman invasion, or this current expedition towards the east, what good has come from it? In addition, under Islamic rule Jerusalem was a peaceful city where Christians, Jews and Muslims lived until the Crusades. And in countries conquered by the Islamic Empire, remnants of Islamic architecture, belief, tradition still are set in many of these nations, even after the horrible colonization,exploitation, and carving up of many of these nations by the Europeans. As I have said, the message has remained in many of these areas. Now Allah is the judge.
    And all will be judged by their deeds and Allah knows our hearts.
    if the current established nations are looking to better their people, they find conflict with Islam? When Islam teaches man to believe in God and do righteous deeds?
    Interesting, interesting indeed is the history and within history many things can be learned.

    May Allah bestow his Blessings and Mercy upon those who seek Truth and Guidance

  73. When I read of the massacres of Algerian schoolgirls I thought it was a tragic abberation. Then I find out it is a technique used in Afghanistan, Thailand, etc.
    Every country with a certain percentage of muslims in it produces a little psycho army that does this sort of work.

    Why would anyone want muslims in their country? Why would any woman want muslims in her country?

  74. May Allah bestow His Blessings and Mercy upon those who seek truth and guidance.

    I see Ms. Eliza that you make many comments about muslim people and how their actions.

    You should not Judge. Second don’t Judge an entire people or religion because of some people who claim to be of the religion and don’t follow it.

    Yes there are a lot of muslims who say their muslim and do horrible atrocities that goes against the teachings in the Qu’ran and the Sunnah or Tradition of Prophet Muhammad (p.b.u.h.)
    In fact many of the atrocities can be attested to the period before Islam was revealed and/or other civilizations, of the past practicing certain things.

    For example, suicide bombing, introduced,as far as I know by British terrorists in the 1948 war of the conquest of Palestine. I read that.

    or Forcing women to marry them and raping them or such things.

    In Islam all of thes things are forbidden. So it’s not the religion, it’s the person doing the act.

    Do you know that many of the muslim women in Algeria are of the smartest of the country, engineers, college graduates, keeping the society in line, for Islam?

    It is also in American and European culture to downplay the woman, just as it is in many cultures and I emphasize the world cultures.

    In the Catholic religion, the doctrine that stated that Priests could not get married or have children was mainly for the fact that in the case they died, their wifes would have part ownership of the church. I learned this in a Catholic University.

    The basic point is, of all the reading you’ve been doing have you read the Qur’an?

    Have read the hadith in which states…(and I’m paraphrasing) that Heaven lies under your mother’s feet.

    Islam doesn’t oppress women. If you know this and you see muslims doing it, maybe you should encourage those muslims to follow their religion as it should be followed.

    Allahu Allum

    May Allah bestow His Blessings and Mercy on those who seek truth and guidance.

  75. P.S.

    Ms. Eliza

    Or maybe you should be enlightening the brothers and sisters on this site so that the muslims can encourage our brothers and sisters to follow the religion as it should be followed and treat muslims and all of Allah’s creation as Allah would have wanted us to.

    Thank you

    May Allah bestow His Blessings and Mercy upon those who seek truth and guidance.

  76. But first you must know something of our religion before you can say anything.
    You must believe what we believe, or in the least know what Islam is really about wouldn’t you say?
    If you think it’s a righteous cause and something that should be addressed.

    To Ms.Eliza

  77. My point is that the system of Islam, the environments created by it, produce groups of murderous psychos.

    Thugs threatening or assaulting women not wearing scarves. Schoolgirls not killed by the hazards of war, but specifically targeted.

    It doesn’t matter what beauties your scriptures and litanies contain. In them, the violent find permits to commit murder. This is what you bring to the West?

  78. May Allah bestow His Blessings and Mercy upon those who seek Truth and Guidance.

    I must disagree with you Ms. Eliza, the system of Islam does none of the kind. Those scriptures and litanies are what those who seek to be accepted by Allah as true believers strive hard to follow. Those beauties contained in those scriptures set boundaries for muslims and for mankind so that the atrocities you speak of do not occur. The Qu’ran is not a book of stories. It goes against the atrocities you speak of.
    Mark your words carefully I ask, Islam is a mercy for mankind.
    The people who do atrocities and unIslamic acts in the name of Islam, have to meet with Allah just as the rest of us.

    Those who use the Qu’ran to explain their non-Islamic ways are doing an injustice to all of those people who call themselves muslim and all people who believe in God and more importantly a great injustice to themselves.
    In addition, Islam is not being brought to the west. This is religion is no offering of gratitude or trade, if you follow this religion it is to your own benefit as it is to my own benefit to follow it. And just as well, if you do not follow the laws and the boundaries set by Allah that it is to your own harm as it is to mine if I don’t follow it.
    Allah is the Judge and the Disposer of All Affairs.

    If there are thugs threatening women who don’t wear headscarves or qimaars, schoolgirls or innocents killed by indiscriminate war, or any other atrocity, I tell you
    I tell you
    I tell you as one who has Embraced Islam, that this is not of the religion. That is not Islam.

    If all you know about our religion is the things that you read and here in the news, then you know little about my religion.

    Maybe you should read those scriptures and realize for yourself exactly what I’m relaying to you.
    How can you say the system of Islam produces these violent behaviors when you say that the scriptures and litanies don’t matter.
    The scriptures and litanies, the beauties explains the system of Islam as you call it.

    So if violence and atrocity is spreading rampant, don’t blame the system, when the system is instilling the opposite of the atrocity you see. The man committing these acts is not following the system

    May Allah bestow His Blessings and Mercy upon those who seek Truth and Guidance.

  79. Moe

    Good comeback, however
    Let me state for the record, by virtue of being Muslim, it does not make someone, or people or a state, infallible, Muslims are victims of the same bias, prejudices, temptations and ignorance that any human being is. The struggle for Muslims is trying to apply Islam.

    However, for the record I also say the Islam is a perfect system, attempted to be implemented by imperfect men.

    To follow up on what my brother Abdul At-Tawwib stated, during the so-called Muslims wars, Muslims were concerned with the Soul, Hearts, and Minds of Men and Women. In this time the Muslims were pre-dominantly Arab, but look at non-Arab Iran, Turkey, Afghanistan, Pakistan etc.. There are no Arab bases or occupations, there are no installed puppet Arab governments, there are no back door, arm twisting, sweet heart deals to swindle oil or natural gases. Instead what you see is Turk in control of Turkey, Iranians in charge of Iran. However these countries are Muslims countries, the remnants of motive remain.

    Colonizers were not interested in spreading Christianity or Ideology, to assist the people of the country they merely wanted to exploit the resources and the people. It was their mule ticket.

    In Western studies, the above is called the Medieval period and most westerners dismiss non-European grievances against the West because it was prior to the enlightenment of the West.

    However in this contemporary age, look what the West has done.

    Now look at the West, there are still U.S. bases in Germany, Japan and South Koreas after World War II is done with, what is the reason for this and for U.S. bases throughout the world, even with nations that have no history of agitation with the U.S. Obvious U.S. installed-puppet governments in Iraq, and Afghanistan, which consists of many individuals that long, left those respective countries and lived in the West. Furthermore less obvious U.S. controlled government throughout the Gulf States. Not to mention, the U.S. conduct in Latin America through this age, which has lead to the ever- increasing parts of Latin America turning against American hegemony.

    There are no current Arab or Muslim State, with bases or armies, outside of it own countries. The last of which were the Syrians in Lebanon, but in this case, Lebanon is a pre-dominantly Muslim country. The Syrian initially went to Lebanon to bring an end to a bloody civil war.

    In reality, the cause of tension against the Muslims have emerged because of the long pathetic situation that Muslims countries found themselves in, has set off a chain reaction of Muslims attempting to return to Islamic governance i.e., the Islamic revolution in Iran, the Taliban in Afghanistan, the PKK an Islamic Party winning elections in Ultra-secular Turkey, Hamas in Palestine, Hizbullah in Lebanon, so-called Islamist winning elections in Algeria, the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, Shiite control of Southern Iraq, Northern provinces in Nigeria applying the Sharia, and the Islamic Courts in Somalia.

    The West seek to subvert these current movements, even though they themselves cry power of the people, but they respect these grass root movements of the people.

  80. Sorry for the typos

    The West seek to subvert these current movements, even though they themselves cry power of the people, but they DONT respect these grass root movements of the people.

  81. Eliza

    If you are looking for murderous Muslims who kill schoolchildren, un-veiled woman and who bite the heads off of live chickens; then you have come to the wrong place.

    If you would actually READ Umar’s posts instead of jumping directly to comments and transcribing dialouge from the Bill O’Reilly show, you would clearly see that we are not “THOSE” type of Muslims.

    Now please move along. Don’t you have a C.U.F.I meeting to get to?

  82. May Allah bestow His Blessings and Mercy upon those who seek Truth and Guidance.

    Might I say, in recent development of policy towards Islam and those who follow it, Muslims should hold fast to their deen, and seek the pleasure of Allah. And pray we are able to get through these times and times to come inshaAllah.

    Ignorance and Jahilliya is spreading rapidly in the world in revolutions it seems. Such things must be combatted with Tawhid, and good Adaab. Instill and encourage our fellow brothers to seek the pleasure of Allah in their daily lives inshaAllah. So that if this so called Muslim takeover of Europe occurs, the application of Islam in the land by those who follow it will be proper inshaAllah and even if it doesn’t happen that Allah be pleased with the muslims effort to please Him inshaAllah.

    May Allah bestow His Blessings and Mercy upon those who seek Truth and Guidance.

  83. I would say Saudi Arabia is striving to live in the ultimate Islamic manner. Surely it is an inspiration to us all, hm? By their fruits you shall know them.

    I have perused the Koran, hadiths, etc. Mohammad was a murderous bandit.

    Islam produces many decent people. But too many arrogant murderers. Maybe they are imitating Mo.

  84. To Ms. Eliza

    If that is so, that you have examined the Qu’ran and the Hadiths with care and you come that conclusion of the Prophet (p.b.u.h)

    Then I leave you in dignity.

    I want all of the people on this site to bear witness to my testimony.

    I bear witness that there is not God but Allah and that Muhammad (p.b.u.h) is His Messenger.

    I worship none but Allah. And Muhammad (p.b.u.h) is His Messenger.

    I have implored for the sister to read, she says she has “perused” the Qu’ran and Hadith and came up to the conclusion above stated.

    I have no more to say to her, to you Ms. Eliza May Allah bestow His Blessings and Mercy on those who seek Truth and Guidance, inshaAllah.

  85. Mohammad was a murderous bandit. Why do you say that? Using the criteria of the bible the murderouse bandit was fairly watered down:)

    What about Moses?

    Numbers 31: 17-18

    17. Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him.

    18. But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.

    Now I the Good Ol Coarsair am telling myself…..

    Gee Moly Oh Goly, even the little timmy’s? And the women folk? WOW.

    Now who are these women children? Well the Talmud states they are all girl’d younger then 3year’s and a day(Emphisis on THE DAY:))

    “According to the Tannaïte Rabbis, MOSES therefore had ordered the Israelites to kill all women older than three years and a day, because they were “suitable for having sexual relations.” Ibid., §157,

    Now The Biblical Moses was a savage, I understand he was a murderous pedophile, a bandit, and a mentailly unstable man….. but what about The Biblical Jesus?

    Sadlly he not only condoned these teachings, but deemanded that they be followed and implemented until heaven and earth hath passed.(We are here arent we?) (Matthew 5:17-18)

    Why he even went so far as getting angry at Pharisees in chapter 15 . I shall narrate the whole.

    Matthew 15:1-9
    1 Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked,
    2 “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat!”
    3 Jesus replied, “And why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?
    4 For God said, ‘Honor your father and mother’ and ‘Anyone who curses his father or mother must be put to death.’
    5 But you say that if a man says to his father or mother, ‘Whatever help you might otherwise have received from me is a gift devoted to God,’
    6he is not to ‘honor his father’ with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.
    7You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you:
    8 ” ‘These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me.
    9 They worship me in vain; their teachings are but rules taught by men.'”

    Boy Biblical Jesus was a real “Secular Progressive” eh?

    NOTE THE QURANIC JESUS AND MOSES WHERE REALLY NICE DUDE’S.:) No virgin burning, child rapin, toddler dashin…. sorry Ted Bunndy:)

  86. Islam produces many decent people. But too many arrogant murderers.

    Turn on the 6PM news hon, and then we can compare the number of murder’s here and their, betcha no Muslim Mom drown’s her babies in the tub, because Jesus Told her too.:)

    As far as what the Muslim where doing in Jeruslam?

    What where European’s doing their prior to their arrival? Long way from the lands of Ice and Snow eh Japhet?

    I can understand what the Arabs where doing in the middle east, hence they are semite, everyone is semite. They where mearly having a family reunion. But who invited you?

    711 – tariq invades spain.

    429 C.E asshole.

    A Germanic Christian folk from Alandalus named The Vandal’s(hence alandalus meaning the land of the vandal’s) left their nice WESTERN Christian homeland of Europe and took it upon themselves to invade Berber lands.

    Tariq being amazigh mearly, was returning the favor. But then again…….. take a look at what we did in Spain and what you did in North africa, I say we where fucking ripped off.

  87. You have your religion and I have mine. Jesus was the better man.

    Muslims always hark back to ancient history when they’re trying to avoid the problems of the present.

    Moses, David, etc. are not presented as paragons of purity and compassion, or even role models. We do not see fables about women throwing garbage on their heads, etc.

  88. I see your kennel was left open again, eliza. You’re good at projecting your fantasies on other people, a legend in your own mind you are – small mind, hard heart, totally bereft of any honesty. In the meantime stop trying to be something you are not, you are not given to an ounce of sound reasoning, and cling to a joke of a world view.
    You’re not a Christian(rapture-acid-trip-ready armagedonist loons don’t count), and any of the other things you’ve claimed. A poor liar at best. I have it on good authority that Jesus(a.s.) hates you with a passion.
    Get of the crusader kool aid and realize that you’re a cog in a bankrupt system.

  89. what of 429? vandals invade the iberian peninsula; one in a line of many invaders, including the berbers. that land was settled by the iberians, made up of many tribes, some of who may have come from north africa, and the celts, who became the celtiberians. then the phoenicians, the greeks, the carthaginians. the rest were invaders. the vandals, the suevi, the alans, the visigoths, the berbers. so, because the vandals invaded in 429, and because of north africa’s proximity to the iberian peninsula, the berber invasion of al-andaluse isn’t relevant in the “context of history”? and somehow it makes me an “asshole”. i practice neither christianity nor islam and couldn’t care about the my god can beat up your god exchanges on this board. in the eyes of history, and in the context of the subject of this thread – the islamisation of europe – both christians and muslims, in the names of their gods, and today’s west, have shown imperialistic ideologies. i appreciate the comments left on this board by mssrs. hakim and abdul, in particular their observations that man is but a flawed being, all of us victims of the same bias, prejudices, temptations and ignorance, trying to submit fully to our perfect faith (although they did make these comments in the context of their muslim faith i believe it can be applied to most of us). and some will fail.

  90. Mr. Moe,

    As I say… May Allah bestow His Blessings and Mercy on those who seek Truth and Guidance.

    :-)

  91. I think it’s interesting the way DrM describes himself as he tries to insult me.

    I think the muslims will be absorbed in Europe.

    Both Saudi Arabia and Iran are Islamic states. Few people want to live there. When islamists win, they also lose.

    Jesus is better.

  92. Brooklyn Moe;

    Take what is beneficial and leave what is not, in regards to the comments on this page.

    History has shown whenever an Empire, Religion, or Country gains power, whether in numbers, weapons, whatever, then quite naturally animosity arises with rivals, be it a competing Empire, Religion, or Country. Animosity then develops into confrontations.

    Even if you look at the Prophets, Moses (pbuh) vs. Pharaoh, emerging of Jesus (pbuh) vs the High Priest, or Pilate (according to Christian tradition),and the subsequent second destruction of the temple by the Roman, Muhammad (pbuh) vs the polytheist of Makkah.

    We should not think, just because it’s for the sake of truth, or the spreading of the word of God or establishment of the Kingdom of God or Sharia, that somehow, the world is going to say. “well it the truth and it’s from God so let’s submit,” such things can’t occur without a fight. This is the nature of the world of imperfect men. With that being said Jews made war upon the people in the Holy Land and the Muslims have Jihad, but these were sanctioned by their respective Prophets.

    Even outside of the scope of religion even ideology, Democracy, vs Communism or other man-made ideologies. It this contemporary era Democracy is this great thing that is going to save the world, however in trying to spread it throughout the world more carnage has befallen the Earth i.e. (World Wars) than any other time.

    Therefore, the historical time line, you shown of Muslim conquest or conflict, in itself is not sufficient to establish anything because, that commonality exists with all people, countries, religions, and ideologies in that regard and will exist due to the nature of this world of imperfect men.

    At the end of the day it comes down to faith. Don’t judge the actions of Muslims, Christian or the Jews, instead study their proofs, their respective holy books and oral traditions.

    The Torah has been lost on different occasions in history and the Jews themselves reported that there were two torahs developed by the Jews in the diaspora. The above description has been provided from the Jewish scholars themselves, not Muslims.

    As far as the New Testament, thousand of manuscripts have been found to support the legitimacy and accuracy of the Bible, but what they don’t tell you is that no two manuscripts are alike. BIBLICAL scholars, attribute this to mistakes of the scribes and whole-sale omissions and interpolations. Also ironically enough the bulk of most of the manuscripts are in Greek and some in Latin, languages in which Jesus did not speak and no manuscripts have been found in the languages that Jesus is reported to have spoken Hebrew and Aramaic. Again, Biblical scholars have come to these conclusions.

    Now we have the Qur’an, enemies to Islam can’t dispute, the book has never been lost, it’s in the language of the Prophet it was revealed to, to the point that it has solidified it place in the Arabic Language. Lastly it has not changed.

  93. Strategically speaking, the fact that non-Muslim won’t move to Saudi Arabia and, Muslims from diverse countries immigrate in large number to the West, and the accumulation of native converts is Win Win and the Muslims gain from this and lose nothing. Also the fact the Europe’s population is in decline, another Win.

    Actually this is what Umar’s original post is about.

    Blind hatred has a tendancy to blur rational thought.

  94. God is not I think a publisher. Nor a lawyer.

    The Koran has many absurdities.

    Not only do Westerners not want to live in the ME, neither do many muslims. Think. Doesn’t Islam have a something to do with the unappealing societies there?

    Jesus is better! God is above all publications!

  95. Again sought of the point, if you think about it.

    Lets not limit it by saying people in the Middle East don’t want to live there, lets expand it to people don’t want to live in North Africa, so let them migrate to France, as they have been doing. Lets not forget the Southeast Asian, so let them migrate to England, as they have been doing, lets not forget Turkey, let them migrate to Germany as they have been doing. In fact let the Muslims travel to every place on the globe.

    While we are at it, lets not forget American Troops it’s a lot of them that don’t want to be in the Middle East.

    Question, have you thought about how Christianity spread. A handful of people traveled and propagated their faith throughout the Roman empire, and gradually and continuously increased their numbers and finally took over the empire, when the Emperor Constantine supposedly accepted Christianity on his death bed.

    How, ironic it is, that the same Emperor Constantine’s city Constantinople is now 99% Muslim and his biggest most beautiful church became a Masjid.

    Now look around the World and see the trends and you do the math.

    Lastly, if Islam was the reason for these unappealing societies, then tell me why, according to Western analysts is Islam the FASTEST GROWING RELIGION in the west, why is the Westerner attracted to Islam the so-called producer of these unappealing societies, furthermore, Islam is growing at the expanse of who ! Christians perhaps ? I guess it’s comparable to the way you are attracted to this blog. You just can’t help it and we are happy to have you.

    As my brother has stated several times, May Allah bestow His Blessings and Mercy on those who seek Truth and Guidance.

  96. From Al Jazeera:

    Shiekh Ahmed Katani : “In every hour, 667 Muslims convert to Christianity. Everyday, 16,000 Muslims convert to Christianity. Ever year, 6 million Muslims convert to Christianity. These numbers are very large indeed”.

    Ta ta.

  97. May Allah bestow His Blessings and Mercy upon those who seek Truth and Guidance.

    Muslims do not make a distinction between the Prophets of Allah. We honor, love and respect them all. I love Moses and Jesus and I love Muhammad (p.b.u.h.) too! That’s a beautiful thing about Islam. In looking at the the timeline of the prophets based on their messages. Alhamdulillah! They were all beautiful men and a Mercy from Allah.
    Allahu Akbar!
    Allah has been more than good to man, so inshaAllah we seek to please Him and thank Him for his blessings that He has and is bestowing upon us inshaAllah.

    So

  98. Eliza,

    you make converts out of the poor, the ignorant, the horney, the drunkards, the lost souls. you don’t convert thinkers or previous Muslim clerics or at least people with brains!

    why don’t you convert Europe back to Christianity instead of going after the ignorant nominal Muslims in the jungles of Asia and Africa or remote Muslim lands like Bosnia and Kosova?

    cowards, you know your stupid religion doesn’t stand an intellectual debate. pffff, 1+1+1 = 3, Jesus died for our sins, and all that Pauline crap. am I watching the Power Rangers here?

    the religion of Paul is under my foot, the Jewish rabbi who corrupted the message of Jesus like the Jewish Abdullah ibn Saba’ gave rise to Shi’ism within Islam.

    ………

    my Berber brother, I’ll address you later.

  99. sorry, i meant to type 1+1+1 = 1 :p lol even when one is absent-minded he can’t fall for Paulinism (the religion of the Jewish Paul), but some so-called “Christians” do! hahaha

  100. It this contemporary era Democracy is this great thing that is going to save the world, however in trying to spread it throughout the world more carnage has befallen the Earth i.e. (World Wars) than any other time.

    What the hell are you talking about?

    World War I was not about democracy at all, but was merely a clash between rival empires.

    World War II in Europe was started not by the Western democracies, but by the genocidal totalitarian dictator Hitler.

    World War II in the Pacific theatre was started by the Imperial Japanese Army. Because of the Depression, the Japanese soldiers needed a war to preserve their jobs and so invaded Manchuria without Tokyo’s permission. When the government in Tokyo tried to rein them in, they terrorized it into submission by murdering anti-war politicians.

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