The Immigration Debate

There has been a lot written and said about the immigration bill that seems to be going nowhere fast in the senate and most of it is hot air. On the political-right you have people who are demagogueing on the issue, engaging in racial politics and fear-mongering. On the left you have those who are blinded by idealism and political-correctness and those in the Democratic Party who like illegal immigration because they believe that these immigrants will become Democrats regardless as to whether they are hurting American workers.


I see myself in the middle of this issue. I support amnesty of those who are already here and do not want to live in a country that rounds up 12 million people and ships them away. On Fox News and talk-radio they make these 12 million sound so menacing; but in reality these are the parents of school kids, most are good neighbors, and most are hard-working. When you go to a hotel chances are they are changing your sheets and when your parents get old they may be the ones caring for them. The vast majority of these immigrants are just looking for a better life and most will find it here in America and their children will become full Americans in a generation.


This does not mean there are not problems though. Millions of unskilled immigrants drive the wages down for working-class jobs, encourage a system of exploitation, and create an atmosphere where it is impossible to assimilate such large numbers of people and the social fabric of many communities is removed. We clearly need to get control of the borders and then have enforced and regulated immigration.  We cannot allow everyone who wants to come here to do so, it is not possible, and since we have to limit immigration, we have to start admitting people based on the needs of the American society, such as limiting the amount of low-skilled workers so that wages for American workers go up and encouraging IT professionals, academics and researchers to come here. In fairness, as it is the American tradition, I also believe in family reunification, but within reason.


The worst thing that can be done is to implement some kind of non-unionized “guest worker” program that would create a permanent underclass to the delight of Wall Street or to keep the system as it is today.


Another issue relating to this, with our increasingly diverse society, is the need for things that bring all of us together as Americans, and I do not have the time to address it in this piece but this is one of the main reasons I support a national draft for 18 year olds that could be military, community, or humanitarians service (this would bring us together in a spirit of community and help many in need).


31 thoughts on “The Immigration Debate

  1. Umar, you oversimplified this debate. The bill that was being pushed would have increased immigration of low wage workers. The main issue was the massive immigration surge and not race or racism. I haven’t read a single mainstream person claim that the the illegals are not hard working and do not love their families. These are straw men designed to make a person look the other way.

    If you read the arguments, you will see that they are reasoned, intelligent and based on facts and not on simple demagoguing as you claim above. The bottom line was that this was a bad bill and being against it does not make one a racist.

  2. I don’t know about this one Umar… I just can’t find it in my heart to support giving amnesty to folks who came here illegally and made no efforts to do the right thing. Though I do appreciate their hard work (hate to pay for an orange picked by an American with full health care benefits), this is what my father would consider “rewarding bad behavior.” It’s a catch 22, but I have to turn my back.

    We already live in a country who demonized and leave those in need by the sidelines (remember how easy it for some of us to lump all blacks into one category because you watch BET – though I’ve never met a black person, and I live in the hood who acts like those on TV or speak ebonics/slang (excluding teenagers). How will this be any different than shipping them away? ARe they truly benefits to this society? Is the strong work ethic real or exists because they are afraid of being deported? Why not educate americans in the areas of IT, research….? Did they not know when they left wherever they’d be leaving relatives behind? Seems to me they made a conscious decision…my husband did, my sister in law’s family did ti when they left Egypt; as did my Domincan brother in law. Many have done it, so why fuss now… american muslimahs do it all the time when we move with our husband’s overseas. I’m sorry… if we were to go to country X we wouldn’t receive the same treatment (don’t get me started on not knowing the language).

    We all know the US can be bias when it comes to people of color – remember the Haitans who were in need and the Clintons closed the borders and turned them away

  3. Interesting. A sister comes to the USA to join her husband. She is married to him Islamically but never thought to do a “legal” marriage.She bears children and never gives a thought about her status because a) her english is minimal and b) she assumes her husband sorted it out. Ten years later he divorces her and she discovers that she has no legal status to be in the USA. She also finds out that the 2 children she had with him overseas are out of status because the father neglected to file for his children. Her 4 children born in the USA are citizens. “Anchor” babies with an american father.
    She is now an illegal alien. Undeserving of any legal help because she “broke” the rules. She supports her children by cleaning wealthier muslims homes.They pay her $10 an hour thus driving down the wages for americans who want to do her job of cloroxing shitty toilets. Her 2 children are also illegal immigrants.They attended school in the USA. Using taxpayers money in order to be educated. Happily their father is american so although the father jacked the kids up…he is a taxpayer so he is in a way paying for his illegal childrens education.
    Sound Far Fetched?
    Actually its a true story.
    To those who claim that illegal immigrants drive down wages…come and drive down Liberty Ave here in Queens at 7am. You will see small groups of hispanic males who are waiting to be picked up to do some day laboring. I counted 1 black man there. He may have been Haitian. I also know born and raised American males who make $8 an hour and complain that the illegals have driven down his wages and he cant catch a break. He fails to tell you that his rap sheet has to be folded 5 times and hes a convicted felon. He’s happy because he doesnt have to fight in Iraq but he also cant get anyone to hire him above $8 and hour, When he got a job that paid him $25 an hour..he couldnt handle authority so got himself fired and back to his $8 an hour deli job and blaming it on the muslims, government f’ing him over and life.
    Sounds Far Fetched?
    Its True.
    My Point is…People are illegal for various reasons. Some americans act like they are illegal.
    Deport all the illegals and there wont be americans sweating in the field picking fruit. I guess americans can do what americans used to do and import in young fresh blacks to do the sweaty work. Oops…I forgot..thats called slavery.
    I hate this entire “debate”. This country is forged on the backs and bones of immigrants. Some forced and some willing. Americans always seem to rise up to gripe about issues here when they feel like they will lose out in some way or form…but…whatabout the MILLIONS that have no health care here!! I dont see any debate about that. But you know why that is right…(think about it).
    We are supposed to be the “Western World”.Supposed to be reasonable and able to solve problems in a democratic way. Right?
    Oh yea and educating americans in IT. Its all about the benjamins honey. It costs money to go to school and online school doesnt count. If you went to school and defaulted on your dont get to try again. Corporate America is not about educating americans. They are about making money. MONEY.
    So they outsource. Im sooo tired of calling AOL and getting an indian called Peter who can see all my credit card information…biut Peter is cheaper than Hank so they outsource.
    Welcome to Frickin’ America.
    From Your Residential Alien(Cause Coming From The UK is surely an Alien thing to do)

    OMG this issue just pisses me off.

  4. One more thing(Before I go down said Liberty Ave to rack up at the $ store).
    American muslimahs better think twicce before they run off to another countrry with their non american husbands because your children wont be automatic citizens. Bet you didnt know THAT little gem huh. Yup thats right. Read the Immigration Stature or google it. Because you chose to marry a non american your children born in the UAE or Egypt or India or wherever your Utopia is arent automatic citizens and in fact if you try to get them a US birth abroad certificate you will be turned away.
    Sound Far Fetched?
    Ha…you know what Ima say ..right? Sister currently trapped in the UAE was married to an Indian citizen who works in Dubai. Married him and is now divorced. Her three children arent american citizens and she can NOT bring them here without filing for a green card. If she brings them here on a visitors visa and stays then her little children are ILLEGAL ALIENS.
    Again reform is needed.
    Ok got to get my mistolin :)

  5. No doubt reform is needed when it comes to immigration among other things such as education.

    I have no sympathy for the american making $8 bucks and complaining. As I always say, “You knew what you were signing up for PRIOR to accepting the job.” WE call cannot become millionaires, actually we can if we learned how to properly manage our money and use our skills (whatever they are) to our advantage

  6. Salam

    Well, this topic includes me.

    I left El Salvador in 1984, right in the middle of the Civil war. The war was considered or called the Shield by US because the Russians and Cubans wanted to take over and crippled the US by blocking the Panama Canal via El Salvador & Nicaragua.

    So guess what, the US considered El Salvador & Nicaragua as the defining point against Russia and our small country became the battlefield for more than 10 years.

    From the age of seven, I saw soldiers and guerrilla fighters going through our villages, I clearly remember my mom and grandma feeding both sides, scare of them and scare of the villagers they could easily have reported us to either side as collaborators. Many of our families disappeared, if someone hated you in the village all they had to do was report you and that was your last night at home.

    In the border, the immigration caught us and many other Salvadorians. They asked us for our ID’s and once they learned that we were Salvadorians—they said; you are actually welcome and set us free—I was 9 years old.

    Many Salvadorans are still illegal but most us that came in the 80s run to get our residency. I am blessed to have come here and I do love this country but I know how I came and why—and that a legitimate reason.

    To those who (including Muslims) see the illegal’s only as criminals who have broken the American law, maybe you should see what Americans have broken in the immigrant’s homelands.

    What’s Salvadorians are known for: MS13, the largest gang in the states and most dangerous. Guess what? Some of them were trained by American Paramilitary, and sent back to El Salvador to slaughter anyone who opposed the American influence. Everything comes around, and sometimes we don’t see the bigger picture but only use our prejudice minds.

    We were not refugees by UN and UNICEF status and we were still considered illegal even though they let us in free, but they knew they have f-up our country. So anyone who says send all the illegal’s back; can suck on a sour lemon (I am trying to be polite).

    * To the Muslims, whether you are a born in America, or have obtained citizenship through legal means, you and I are still considered low, unwanted people, not pleasant and a Jihadist, so reconsider your prejudice stand.

  7. Right on target, J. Turner!

    As to strawmen… UMAR… com’on… no rational person I know is calling for a proactive national round-up of 12-20 million illegals via Gestopo-like tactics.

    Also… every rational person I know KNOWS that our current immigration system is seriously flawed and would like to see it fixed.

    (Ahh… but exactly HOW to fix it… that’s the question.)

    Setting “perfection” and even long term goals aside, concentrating on immediate measures I believe the majority of the American people want a few concrete actions taken:

    1) Secure the borders. Now we KNOW this can never be done 100%… but 90% will do. We NEED to control our borders. Period.

    2) Illegals “caught” by virtue of getting themselves “caught” by the criminal justice system must be dealt with harshly. Deporting these people would be a LIGHT “punishment.” We have enough citizen criminals here… we don’t need to import them.

    3) Congress needs to change the laws making anyone born in this nation an automatic citizen. Period. If you’re born here of NON-citizen parents who hold no allegiance to this nation… then you shouldn’t be awarded automatic citizenship with all the rights that entails. Period. Citizenship needs to MEAN something. NON-citizens SHOULD be “second class citizens.” It’s only logical. Doesn’t mean we purposefully abuse non-citizens or treat them as anything less than guests… but ILLEGAL aliens AREN’T guests – at least no invited guests. They should no more be treated as “guests” to our country than someone breaking into my home would be considered a “guest.”

    3) IF… IF… it’s true that we – America – needs “workers,” (and let’s put aside the issue of how cheap immigrant labor does or doesn’t impact the lower class basically unskilled CITIZEN worker), then we need WORKERS. NOT “workers AND THEIR WIVES.” Not “workers AND THEIR CHILDREN.” Not “workers AND THEIR PARENTS.” And so forth and so on. If it’s purely economic… then MAKE it economic. This nation no more “owes” it to immigrant workers to take their families into our social safety net than a company “owes” it to its employee to hire the worker’s spouce, kid, sibling, or cousins.

    Here’s the deal: There’s only so much money. We simply can’t afford to be the source of last resort (and sometimes FIRST resort!) for housing, food, healthcare, education, and other needs for an endless line of immigrants – legal or illegal.

    Anyway… I can go on and one… (and I probably will later!) (*GRIN*)… but that does it for now.


  8. Congress needs to change the laws making anyone born in this nation an automatic citizen. Period. If you’re born here of NON-citizen parents who hold no allegiance to this nation… then you shouldn’t be awarded automatic citizenship with all the rights that entails.

    I thought that jus sanguinis just wasn’t the American way of doing things…

  9. Hmm…actually when the hard right say that the laws as they stand need to be inforced ..what they are talkign about is defacto deportation. They believe if they squeeze the life out of the lifeline of the “illegals” then they will self deport. No schools for their children. No medical. No “anchor babies”(not that having an anchor baby gives any rights to the parents) Extreme work place enforcement and fines etc. While the “do nothing” ideaology is propogated..more illegals enter the US and melt into American society..what good does that do?
    Its obvious that there are those who want nothing more than the status quo.
    So who are the “majority” of the people exactly because they arent the people that live around me or the americans that i know. According to polls the majority wants change.
    Congress isnt going to change the law that gives automatic right of citizenship by soil so give up on that one.
    That whole breaking into my home isnt a guest argument is ridiculous.Because what you forget is the house breaker is the same one who cuts your lawn the very next day.People arent risking lives to get here because they like the brand of coffee here. They are risking lives because the condition in their own countries is terrible.
    10cents a day in Mexico. $50 a day in the US. Do the math.
    Workers alone. Presumeably living in dormotories and only allowed out when their electric monitor devices are on so that we can be sure that they dont visit brothels or have american girlfriends who could become pregnant and give birth to anchor babies……
    This entire we cant support any more people is a total crock. Yes we can. We can support more people thats why the USA is one the most powerful countries in the world.
    It also is a high producer of greenhouse gases. Lacks basic healthcare for millions of its citizens…has a disproportionate number of minorities in its prisons…I can go on and on.

  10. Impressive, George! (*GRIN*) I’ll admit… had to look that one up! (*SMILE*)

    Well… we could go into pre-14th Amendment American history and our legal and political system’s roots in English common law… (*SMILE*)… or we could concentrate on post-14th Amendment jurisprudence… (*WINK*)… but cutting to the chase… I don’t think that there’s much doubt that Congress COULD (does have the power) to go in the direction I’ve indicated we should go in based up – as I mentioned earlier – the concept of the national allegiance of the parents.

    But hey… regardless of whether you buy into Congress’ power to do so… my point was and is that they should and if the matter ends up before the Supreme Court… we’d see what happens from there, right?

    Now as for you, Myopic… (*GRIN*)… I don’t know about “defacto deportation,” but word games aside, yeah… I would like to see the laws already on the books enforced and indeed strengthen – particularly laws targeting employers who knowingly hire illegal alien workers.

    I can’t speak for others, but I can – and will – speak for myself. While there are no doubt indeed people who want the illegal workers but don’t want to pay the side costs of social benefits for them and their families, I simply don’t want them or their families here. Frankly, if I’m forced to accept a system (such as we have presently) where with one hand the government tells illegal immigrants NOT to come here and if here already to go home while on the other hand this same government knowingly refuses to do what needs to be done to achieve the stated goals – and indeed, via lax enforcement ENCOURAGES the behavior it “claims” to want to discourage – then in THAT case I do want the children of these workers schooled (and hopefully socialized) rather than left to their own devices.

    As to medical care… I think we should be taking all the pertinent info of illegals as they access our emergency rooms and private and public health provider services and CHARGE BACK the costs incurred to these peoples countries of origin. I don’t care if it’s “Paddy’s” Ireland or Jose’s Mexico. Send these countries the bills for the costs incurred by the American taxpayer when their citizens access our social safety net. If (when) they refuse to pay… other steps might be taken. At the very least, it would give the American public an idea – in dollars and cents – of how much they’re involentarily subsidizing foreign nationals and foreign nations – some of which, like Mexico – actively “conspire” with their poor citizens to facilitate their illegal entry into the United States.

    * To be continued…


  11. Myopic,

    Surely you don’t actually BELIEVE that “anchor babies” fail to bestow any leverage upon the parents… do you???

    BTW… you’re right about my “no more automatic citizenship” proposal – ain’t gonna happen; no way, no how – not unless Pat Buchanan suddenly gets REAL popular! (*GRIN*)

    (Seriously… I know damn well that in the end… if not this year than next year… if not next year than in 2009… a bill either worse or very similar to the current one is probably gonna be passed – especially assuming a Democratic President and Democratic Congress… and maybe even with Rudy as President and a Democratic Congress.)

    As to the “breaking into my home argument,” no, Myopic… I’m not gonna concede that it’s not a valid argument. Yes, I know that even though I don’t have illegal “staff” cleaning *my* home or *my* pool or mowing *my* lawn or taking care of *my* children… the illegals are in the kitchens of the restaurants I eat in… cleaning the buildings I work in… etc. Got it. (*SMILE*) (If you’re looking for someone who denies reality… well… it’s not me, friend.) That said… I believe we’d get along JUST FINE without a “servant class” of brown-skinned spanglish speakers fulfilling the tasks that we white middle class Americans should be doing ourselves personally and which our children and our own citizen lower class should be doing (with upward mobility part of the bargain) out in the “business” world.

    What’s the black unemployment rate? What’s the black TEENAGE unemployment rate? What’s the black “underemployment” rate? The black TEENAGE “underemployment” rate? In three words… TOO FRIGG’N HIGH. This is simply unacceptable to me. We have a MAJOR problem in the black American citizen community and employed or not… working poor or not… within the AMERICAN lower class strata overall regardless of color. I wanna see “our” kids and “our” underskilled adults taking jobs (and stepping upon the first step of the economic ladder) that the “pro-immigration” forces tell me “American just won’t take.” Well… before I support open borders and amnesty in all but name… I’d rather at least TRY to jumpstart the Protestant Work Ethic that (yeah… granted… along with slavery and “legal” waves of immigration) made this country the country it was up until… oh… the late 60’s/early ’70’s.

    You write… “People aren’t risking lives to get here because they like the brand of coffee here. They are risking lives because the condition in their own countries is terrible.”

    Then I suggest they DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT… from within… from within THEIR OWN countries. We didn’t like the way the Brits were running the colonies… we did something about it. (*GRIN*) To paraphrase… “Frankly my dear illegal immigrants… I don’t give a damn.” (*WINK*)

    You write… “the condition in their own countries is terrible. 10=cents a day in Mexico. $50 a day in the US. Do the math.”

    No… YOU do the math. I’m busy supporting controlling the borders and dealing with the illegals here already. (*GRIN*) If the Mexicans… as just one example… have a problem with the Mexican government and economy… I suggest they DO SOMETHING TO CHANGE THE MEXICAN GOVERNMENT AND ECONOMY. Invading my country isn’t an answer – or at least it’s not an answer acceptable to me.

    Finally… what you call “a total crock” I call FISCAL REALITY. Hospitals, doctors, nurses, staff cost MONEY. Treating ill people costs MONEY. School, teachers, administrators, staff cost MONEY. Educating students costs MONEY. We’re overextended NOW trying to take care of ourselves and our American underclass. Adding a FOREIGN underclass to the dole… simply makes no sense.

    Obviously you’re not happy with America. (*SMILE*) (Well… neither am I… for different reasons.) (*WINK*) I’ll give you credit though… you’re following the advice I give to illegal immigrants – you’re trying to do what you think best to help your country. We disagree on WHAT that is… but hopefully agree on the goal.


  12. Salam

    Will: Then I suggest they DO SOMETHING ABOUT THAT… from within… from within THEIR OWN countries. We didn’t like the way the Brits were running the colonies… we did something about it. (*GRIN*)

    Lol how rich! Plenty of people have tried to do something about their homelands but those who oppose those goverments – those WESTERN (american/european supported) puppet regimes usually find themselves and their family dead. One one hand you say that people should take care of those goverments, not acknowlegding that your american goverment past and present and has supported and funded, even helped to get into power those exact goverments who have brutalised their own people (and now taking part in brutliasing the people of the same nations they’re claming to help.) Saddam didnt gas the kurds without U.S help. He didnt get into power without U.S help (intervention actually as the then preisdent was assinated) and he didnt bomb Iran on his own and american companies profited very much from supplying iran and iraq qith weapons to bomb the shit out of each other. Idi amin got into power in ugdanda directly as a result of british intervention and the yanks and brits contined to pour money and weapons into their hands because it suited them to have a stooge in those nations regardless of their murderous actions against their people. Its only when idi and saddam told the brits and yanks to ‘f’ off, that our respective goverments turned round and ousted them and then replaced them again with more puppet regimes. All while the innocent civilans/citzens get caught in the middle and pawns in a political game. These are just a few of many nations who have gone through the same. Why should the average joe suffer and not move somewhere to safer because of the bad condition that western goverments, their puppets and their opponents (again many funded by western goverments) have created.

    Over in the U.K, you have iraqi refugees been turned away and deported because Iraq is considered ‘safe’ to live in! What a joke.

    IMO, the whole arguement against immigration of non white people from 3rd world nation to europe and america whether legal or illegial is largely pushed by irrational fear of the ‘other’ and unlying racism. The very language used against immigrants is racist to the core (the media being the worst offenders for this). I mean using the word ‘alien’ to descibe human beings- which is repeatly used by americans (and even brits) to describe immigrants, is in itself dehumanisaing and degrading. I notice that this word, amongst other repugnant lanaguage is used mainly at non white immgrants.

    Gomez: Assalamu alikeum *thumbs up* bro. I came from simlar background to yours, different country though (somalia) and came as refugees/aslum seekers during the civil war. Our house was bombed to the ground, along with the whole city cos we came from the part of the country which uprised against Siad Barre (another western trained and funded dicataor- joke is, he wasnt muslim- a marixst and self proclaimed secular socialist and yet was helped into leadership of a 99.99999% muslim country and people). I get choked when my parents tell me what went on and what they struggled with to keep us alive- let alone ‘safe’ or get money/work etc.. People who havent gone through it and experienced what we have, dont understanding and usually have a condesending attitude towards immigrants (legal or illegal), refugees, asylum seekers and anyone else. It still cracks me up when i hear british folk going on about how such folk get free housing and are laping up loads of freebies and a life of luxury when me and all the other familes i knew who came to britian were dirt poor and living in real poverty in U.K. Many people still are even today and its 2007. But even more so which angers me is when people assume that you’ve done nothing to contribute back, when you have, in great number and £££ (the amount i get taxed is scandoulous and im still a student. But this is britian, shouldnt be suprised!!). Anyhow i agree with your last paragraph in particular (exchange america for britian). I been a british citzen since the age of 12 (although grown up in the U.K from early age) and some people still refer to me now as an immgrant, aslum seeker etc (usually ment as an insult) so nothing has changed in that regard.

  13. (*SMILE*) Muslim_gal, as much as you’d LIKE to change the topic to American/European colonialism/imperialism… we’re presently discussing the topic of U.S. Immigration Reform. Do try and keep up.

    So ON that specific topic… other than ranting about racism… (*GRIN*)… any thoughts on what “reform” would actually entail?

    Seriously… teasing (condescension) aside… any thoughts on the topic at hand?


    BTW… you DO know where Idi Amin ended up… right? (*CHUCKLE*)

  14. will: as much as you’d LIKE to change the topic to American/European colonialism/imperialism… we’re presently discussing the topic of U.S. Immigration Reform. Do try and keep up.

    I brought that up because you critised migrants for not saying home and improving their country/changing goverments etc.. and migration for many people is a direct result of european/american imperialism hence its revelent to the discussion. As is racism because often the arguements against immigration (of non whites especially) and the manner its discussed by opponents to immigration has racist undertones. The issue of immgration is not a clear cut, one way issue.

    Firstly, if the west wants to reduce migration to their nations then they need to firstly stop interfering on the on-going of other nations (more specifcally in politcal affairs and leadership, like funding crack pot dictators and conspiring wars) In the u.k at the moment, the largest number of immgrant- namely aslum seeks (including illegal ones) are coming from countries like Iraq, somalia, sierre lione where they has been
    extreme conflict recently (the 1st two could have been avoidable if it were not for outside influence)

    i have to run but i’ll answer that q tomorrow (clocking off work at the mo!)

  15. Ah… so now they’re “migrants.” (*SMILE*)

    Sorry, M_G, I’d prefer they “migrate” on a day by day basic… preferably from their HOMES in Mexico (or wherever) to their JOBS in Mexico (or wherever).

    Note: We’re discussing ILLEGAL aliens here. I’m all for legal immigration. First you ASK PERMISSION to come here… and then it’s up to our government (God Help Us!!! Yes… I recognize the irony!) to decide who wins a travel visa vs. a work visa vs. permanent residency and a path to citizenship.

    Hey M_G… (*GRIN*)… ya ever wonder WHY the people of Mexico, Central, and South America speak… SPANISH?!?! (Well… except for Brazil of course… where they speak… ANOTHER EUROPEAN language.)

    Damn, girl…! Shouldn’t you be blasting those damned dark skinned imperialist running dogs? (*LAUGHING OUT LOUD*) What… if you’re white and speak English you’re a BAD colonialist/imperialist… but if you’re a bit more tanned and speak Spanish or Portugese you’re… a GOOD colonialist/imperialist? (*SNORT*) (*CHUCKLE*)

    O.K., one more time M_G… (*SMILE*)… I don’t particularly CARE if it’s Paddy from Ireland or Jose from Mexico or Boris from Russia… I want foreigners – whether they come her to vacation… to work… or to live and eventually become citizens… to come here LEGALLY – or not at all. Nothing “racist,” dear – simply the same rules for everyone.

    Chat with ya later!


  16. Good grief Bill you wrote an awful lot and I suppose to give what you wrote justice I’m going to have to respond in as lengthy and clear a way as possible.

    First off De facto deportaion. It basically means deportation in practice.As in without an alternative thats viable..the only thing left is deportaion. Geddit?I meant if you dont do anything to legalize the people that are here and only seek to enforce the laws as they stand and squeeze the lifeline from underneath the ilegals then what is left is invariably deportation because if you cant eat, sleep, work and breathe in peace…why stay? That was my point.

    Excuse my love for words. Im one of those black women who learned Latin in school for the hell of it and use words that people dont always know for the hell of it. I dont usually mess with semantics but I do love playing with words at times.

    The laws that are on the books arent being enforced…thats why all immigration bills t hat are raised(and fail) all advocate stronger border security and workplace enforement. Stronger. Not weaker. Theres nothing wrong with giving additional sttrength to laws that are already in place.

    At least you are honest. You dont want immigrants here illegally and I warrant you would wish for legal immigration to be curtailed too. What does that say about you? It says you are like the minority of Americans who make the loudest noise when it comes to Immigration. You use all these quasi intelligent reasonings to explain why your views are what they are when the truth is it stems from the notion that America is being invaded by hoardes of brown skinned people who are bringing their foreign ways and speech to America. Thats the truth of the matter. If that wasnt the case then you wouldnt have mentioned spanglish. Que nice!

    Your theory on medical care. What should be done about the scores of americans who run out on their medical bills every day? Who should foot the bill for them. I know I know. They are Americans! They are allowed to skip out on bills but in my experience….illegals dont want to have anything to do with authority and so endure pain and discomfort until they have no other choice but to visit an Emergency room. The same can be said for the americans that dont have any health insurance. For the most part illegals are going to pay for their own bills.

    Anchor babies. I know that anchor babies do not give the illegal parents any legal standing. The US government has deported many parents of US citizen children without batting an eyelid. The INS gives those parents a choice. They can leave their USC children here in the Us or take them back to their home country. The children do not confer legal status on the parents. The parents do not get section 8 or any other kind of subsidized housing because of their children.. In fact section 8 has been closed for about 8 years except for battered women and those who are in homeless many illegals do you think are holed up in shelters. See the problem I have with your arguments arent that they are incorrect..much more that they are just misdirected. They are the same arguments that those who are against Immigration reform(and reform of any kids for anything) tend to talk about without being fair with the facts. So yes I do believe what I said.

    ..” believe we’d get along JUST FINE without a “servant class” of brown-skinned spanglish speakers fulfilling the tasks that we white middle class Americans should be doing ourselves personally and which our children and our own citizen lower class should be doing (with upward mobility part of the bargain) out in the “business” world.”

    Read what you wrote there again. Read it fast. Read it slow. Read it back to front if you want but please read it again. See what i read was exactly what I thought from the start. You may not be a “racist” classic sense because you arent ignorant but you definetly are a bigot.

    Of course you believe that we can get along without a brownskinned servant class of spanglish speakers when we already have a ready mine of citizen brownskinned servant class of ebonic speakers…..right? lol. God you are amusing.

    White middle class americans need to get wit’ the program. The USA is filled with people speaking different languages. My sons family are all born and raised Americans who speak spanglish all the time. I speak spanglish too. Its got nothing to do with trying to be different. Its just sometimes a word is used thats spanish rather than english. Whats the big deal? Every morning my neighbors wake me up with the most beautiful sound in the world…..fluent old worlde Italian spoken over their tomato plants. They dont speak a lick of english but I can speak enough italian to know they are the sweetest old white folks around. Anyone who speaks more than one language in this era of globilization are going to be ahead in the game. My son says Agua when he’s thirsty and he’s a born and raised American. Again whats the deal?

    I have a suggestion for you. Go for one week without patronizing any immigrant impacted businesses in your area. A week where you dont watch a news channel(that includes Fox which is owned by an Australian), eat a foreign meal and try to buy and cook only good old American products. Try to buy products from areas where Americans pick the fruit or vegetables(Im sure Numbersusa has a list) I DARE you to be a man of your words and do without what Immigrants(legal and otherwise) have brought to the American Table. If you can do that then I will respect you as more than an Umarlee blog pundit and a man of your “Middle Class American” Words!

    I have to applaud you for trying to bring the black issue to the table. We were talking about Immigration. Not how to show Black America how to pull themselves up by the bootstraps. You were quick enough to direct muslim_gal back to the question at hand so Id like to do the same to you.

    Its not about Black America. Its about IMMIGRATION.

    As for Immigrants going back to their own country and fixing its problems. Did you miss what Gomez said? Read what he wrote again. el Salvadore didnt become the root of MS13 by accident.(Please also consider the Taliban Vs Big Bad Wolf Russia )Big World Government has aided in the degenaration of a lot of countries in the world. It started with colonialism and continued with forced enslavement. For these countries to become better economically then the Rich World at large needs to start setting some policies in place to help more. The USA has done some things but it needs to do more. As well as the UK and the other Rich Western Countries that lend those countries huge loans knowing they will never be able to pay them off and so the cycle countinues.(Oh and I can talk about this because I didnt self sanction myself by telling other posters to stick to the topic.

    As for my not being happy with America. Who told you that?You know what they say about ASS-umming things. I prefer the US to the UK any day of the week.But if you know anything about the Immigration debate in the know the debate over here is baby babbling compared to whats gooing on over in the UK(It all started with a man called Enoch Powell) I hear your kind of sentiments from my mother and I tell her the same thing.It has nothing to do with being dissatisfied. I just dont like Oppression in White Mans clothings stitched with better than thou rhetoric.

    Ok Thats it from Me. Im going to make me some mexican rice with some boricua pollo.


  17. “Good grief Bill…”

    (*GRIN*) Ya know… I get that a lot. (*SMILE*)

    First… working within your definition… yep, “defacto deportation” sounds good to me. (*WINK*) Making “illegal” U.S. residence untenable… yep… as far as possible that’s the goal. Of course I’m sure either of us could come up with cases where we’d BOTH want to make an exception in a particular case… so without going into theoretical details let’s just say that in principle I’d consider (and probably support) some sort of mechanism to deal with the “it’s a matter of specific, individual justice” situations.

    We agree that the current laws aren’t being enforced. OBVIOUSLY they haven’t been enforced! (*LOPSIDED GRIN*) No doubt portions of these laws should be rethought. But in any case… yeah… I’m calling for both enforcement of current laws (and for review of these same laws with the possibility of repealing or materially changing them) AND new laws… new laws which you might think “harsh.”

    BTW… thanks for the compliment re: “at least you’re honest.” Yes… I am. Honest AND forthright. (*GRIN*) I believe there’s no problem with people disagreeing… but that in order for the disagreement to be “positive” in the sense of a civil exchange… each side needs to know where the other is coming from and exactly what he or she believes and doesn’t believe.

    Would I curtail legal immigration too? Probably. Certainly I’d change the terms of such immigration – turn away from the ’64 Kennedy “reforms” and move towards a system that meets OUR national needs first (in terms of seeking HIGH skilled vs. low skilled workers/future citizens) and is more… “selfish” as you’d probably put it… than “selfless.” Also… in terms of demographics… I want America to remain basically an anglo-centric Western “christian” nation. I make no bones about that. I strongly believe that it *is* our heritage and predominent historical culture that makes (made!) America great. To put it simply… as an example… I think it would be a GOOD thing if Mexico became more like the United States. I think it would be a BAD thing if the United States became more like Mexico. And to dispel any incipient talk of “racism,” let me just say that it’s not about color but about “creed.” It’s about… cultural norms and “ideals.” Last time I looked the Japanese (as one example) were “non-white, non-christian, and certainly not anglo,” but I’d love for America to attract more immigrants from Japan. My feeling… Japanese cultural norms would ADD to our dominent culture rather than distract from it. Also, I’m very comfortable with Indian immigration. Again… their cultural norms seem complimentary to our American creed and seem to provide more pluses than minuses on balance. My point… it’s not about “being white,” and it’s not about “being Christian;” it’s about complimentary socialization and assimilation. It’s about balance.

    * Anyway… the wife just got home and so we’re off for an hour and a half of handball/paddleball! (*WINK*) I’ve given you – and others – PLENTY to chew on. I’ll gladly address the rest of your last post either tonight or tomorrw.



  18. Look dont have to address any more of what I wrote because you confirmed what I wrote in this post.Americas history didnt begin in 1492. It didnt begin when the new americans kicked out the British and it didnt start in 1964. America had a history that preceeded it. Unfortunately it was disease carrying Invadors….illegal immigrants who killed off a good part of those peaceful people who were here before. Dominant White Ideology has been the cause of many a races demise.Just because you are white does not mean that your culture is to be lauded above others. White culture is for the most part a hospotch of other cultures. Even the root of the english language is based in other.
    Your basic point is that white americans being the most dominant(in your perception) it is the culture that should be dominant over all otheres and in your eyes…illegal immigration(and legal immigration) is an affront to those basic “values”.The thing is not everyone wants to come to the USA and bury their culture. If my ancestors were Aztecs then I sure would like to rememeber them in my language and dress if I so chose. I dont think I should be forced to assimilate myself to the point where I change my name from Rapinder to Hank JUST to be seen as “trying”.
    Theres nothing christian about most of your views or opinions. Its christians like yourself that turned me off off christianity in the first place. Those principles that you expressed are nationalistic ones and you should call it that. For a christian man ..theres a lot of Herod in your speech.”Kill them all until you find the one child” aka “Deport them all until we have one color”
    Sound far fetched….
    Have a Great Night Bill!

  19. I am not sure where Billy “Joe” lives at or where his been to, but if he has ever been to California, Texas, New Mexico, Nevada..most of these states are not based on White (Anglo) customes but Spaniash/ Aztec customes.

    Spaniard (Arabic, Jewish, Gypsy and European mix)

    Look at the names, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Santa Cruz—whats so white about these names?
    Texas; (Tejas- Tiles). Nevada (Snowed), Colorado (Reddish)–what does Billy say when he goes to Taco Bell ” give me a corn-bread sandwish (Burrito) with grilled beef (Carne Asada), hold the Hot Peppers (Jalapeños)…

    So what does Billy mean by White culture?

  20. MV – I know I don’t “have” to address your writings… I chose to. (*WINK*)

    Don’t delude yourself. I represent majority opinion – not minority opinion – on this issue. Certainly on how to deal with illegal alien criminals I do and regarding the “enthusiasm” of my fellow Americans to have our taxes continuously raised to support public services for illegal (and legal for that matter) aliens… same deal.

    As to the “long term demographics,” there the polls might well get skewed by… lying. (*GRIN*) After all… what I write isn’t exactly “p.c.” But that said… the bulk of the American people want their great-grandchildren to grow up in a recognizable America closer to to our “historical” ethnic/religious/cultural norm than further from it.

    And yeah, MV… still addressing your 6/12 8:22 pm post… I do believe in treating citizens differently than immigrants. That’s what I’ve been saying! (*GRIN*) You wanna “buy the world a coke” and live in harmony… go to it. Coke needs your support! (*WINK*) As to harmony… good fences make good borders. And the key is… when *I* travel abroad I expect foreign nations to treat me no better and no worse than we treat their citizens. But MV… we AIN’T talking tourism. (*SIGH*)

    (*LAUGHING OUT LOUD*) Oh… I just got to the part where I’m “a bigot.” Yeah… o.k. Didn’t take you long to play that card. (*GRIN*) Whatever…

    As to languages… I’m all in favor of bilingualism. It’s just that unilingual thing… if the “uni-language” ISN’T English… is a problem if you’re going to come here to live rather than vacation and the only language you speak fluently is your Spanish – or whatever. (*WINK*) And again… I would apply the same rules to myself. If I was going to “migrate” (*GRIN*) to Mexico… I’d sure as hell make sure I could already speak Spanish. No, MV… “linguistical separatism” is as bad for this country as racial/ethnic/religious separatism is. Black, white, red, brown, yellow… Christian, Jew, Muslim, Buddist… I want this nation to REMAIN one nation. Balkanization or Quebecization is NOT an option as far as I’m concerned.

    Let’s see… what’s next? Oh, yeah… your “challenge.” (*SMIRK*) Sorry, MV… there’s not much I can do to change the way things are around me, but to reiterate… what I can do – not directly avail myself of illegal immigrant labor as in directly hiring illegals and not bypassing “compliant” wholesalers/retailors to save money patronizing those who offer lower prices via exploiting illegal immigrant labor – is what I do do. (*SMILE*)

    Next…? Oh, yeah… not “confusing” the issues of “black America” with immigration. Sorry. (*GRIN*) Can’t do that. You know why…??? Because the problems of my fellow AMERICANS… black Americans in this specific context… are *my* problem. The stats don’t lie. America “owes” illegal immigrants nothing. America “owes” American blacks what it owes American whites, yellows, reds, browns… pick a color. (*GRIN*) While I wish I didn’t HAVE to point to black unemployment stats in relation to white unemployment stats… the reality is what it is. And what hurts the prospects of black Americans as a group – specifically “disadvantaged” blacks – hurts AMERICA.

    * BTW… to reiterate… same applies to Hispanic American CITIZENS. Same applies to Asian American CITIZENS. Follow the logic… the key word here being “citizens.” (*WINK*)

    Anyway… this is getting a bit long. (*SMILE*) Let’s break it up. I’ll get back to you! For now… chew on this post.


  21. I’m back! (*GRIN*)

    “Did you miss what Gomez said?”

    Jeez, MV… let me address one person at a time. (*GRIN*) Patience… patience… (*WINK*)

    MS-13… 1984… the foreign policy history of the United States…??? (*GRIN*) Nah… we’ll leave that for another day if you don’t mind. (And hey… as the archives will show… I have no problem addressing U.S. foreign policy or any other subject – it’s just that for the sake of THIS particular discussion… it doesn’t really matter to me “why” illegal immigrants are coming here. My concern is AMERICA’S interests as *I* see them.

    Next… (*SMILE*)… GLAD to hear you’re happy with the U.S.! GLAD to hear you’re happier with us than you are with the Brits! (*WINK*)

    So… that’s it for THAT particular post. Say hi to mom for me!


  22. re: MV’s 6/13 12:25 am post…

    Nope. You’re simply wearing blinders, MV. Too bad, too… you sound like a fairly reasonable and well-educated sort! (*SMILE*)

    The world is what it is. Human nature is what it is. History *is* what it is. For purposes of this discussion I’m focused on the present and future. I’m blogging *my* thoughts on how this nation should deal with immigration (both legal and illegal) in the present and what our future goals should be. You and anyone (everyone in fact!) (*GRIN*) can agree or disagree and post your own thoughts. (And on that note… as always… THANKS UMAR for providing this forum.)

    I’m not talking about imposing our American culture on others… just KEEPING it for ourselves and our decendants. (*GRIN*) And if you’ve paid attention to my past postings on a host of subjects here at Umar’s site, you’ll recognize that I am anything but uncritical of American culture or dismissive of my nation’s past and current “sins” and flaws.

    Don’t get me wrong… I’m not trying to “excuse” any of my beliefs in your or anyone else’s eyes… I’d just like you to “get it right” and not ascribe to me positions I don’t hold. (*GRIN*)

    Re: Immigrants burying their culture… (*SIGH*) I never said any such thing nor inferred it. Some of my own elderly AMERICAN relatives of Italian descent have been known to break into Italian for “private” discussions. BUT… as I explained in a previous thread… my “problem” is not with Americans OR foreigners who are bilingual (I applaud bilingualism!) but rather with those who come to live (for years at a times or permanently) here in America WITHOUT fluent English skills (or at least the drive to gain these skills asap) and especially those who seek to make Spanish or Chinese or any other language a “primary” language here in America. In my not so humble opinion… for reasons already stated… I think this is bad both for the immigrants and for the nation as a whole. ‘Nough said. (*WINK*)

    Do I want to see all vestiges of foreign cultural norms eradicated…? NO! Certainly not! But I want a soup… a RICHLY FLAVORED soup – always having subtle new flavors ADDED to it – rather than a stew with all separate ingredients… some of which clash. In short, I’m a “melting pot” kinda guy… but a “12-grain” as opposed to “white bread” guy. (*GRIN*)

    Do I respect other nations and other cultures? SURE!!! But if I respect THEIR distinct cultures FOR being distinct cultures… what sense does it make for others to demand *my* (our?) country not retain its historical creed and culture?

    As to whether my views are “Christian” or not… (*SCRATCHING MY HEAD*)… “whatever.” I said I want this country to remain a “Christian” country in the “creedal” (don’t know if that’s a real word… but…) (*GRIN*) sense. “Secularized” Christianity I call it… Little House on the Prairie Christianity… Christmas Christianity… (I’ve expounded upon what I mean by these phrases in past posts.) So, no, MV… don’t misunderstand or misinterpret my use of the term “Christianity.” (*WINK*)

    * Personally… I’m a Barkerist! (*WINK*) Hoping God is cool with that… I suppose someday I’ll find out. (*SMILE*)

    And finally… (*DEEP BREATH*)…

    YES!!! Ya got it!!! I’m a NATIONALIST!!! (*WINK*) Gold star… head of the class!


    P.S. – As to Gomez… (*SNORT*) (*CHUCKLE*)

  23. Bill–you are just a little too easy for me. See I dont need to digest and chew over anything you have to say because all of what you say is predick-table(My emphasis). You contradicted yourself a few times. Just to grab one out of the air without scrolling back and said you care about your fellow americans and include blacks in that yet you alluded earrlier that you were all for the second class ideal of citizenry in this country. And when you mentioned that you were using yourself(white) as a higher class than the lesser(black) demographic.Let me scroll up and check myself before I go on….
    “fulfilling the tasks that we white middle class Americans should be doing ourselves personally and which our children and our own citizen lower class
    should be doing ”
    Yup … close enough.
    You didnt address half the points I made. Probably because in light of the facts you probably didnt have much to say to contradict it. Its ok.I’ll let it slide until; you have reread and chewed over what I actually said. Makes no seense making new points when you havent dealt with the old ones.
    Dont feel bad to be a bigot.Its always hard to take on board a negative word especially when it applies but thats what you are. Not that different from the Skinheads that stood underneath my bedroom window when I was 8 and screamed “Ni–ers go home!”. Im sure if you asked them they would use the same reasoning as you do for their views.
    US. UK. Its like asking me if I like Tilapia over Whiting.If you cover them in cornmeal and fry it they taste pretty much the same to me.
    Gomez…that whole (grin)(laughs of loud) stuff struck me as corny too but I think Bill is an older generation net user so that stuff probably feels cute to him.
    Personally I find it creepy.
    So We live to Blog Another day(I need to update my own rather than jumping all over Umars….)

  24. “Alluded,” huh? (*GRIN*) Doesn’t that mean… DIDN’T ACTUALLY SAY???


    “Too easy?” O.K. (*GRIN*) Then I guess we’re done. (*WINK*)


  25. -GOMEZ
    June 13th, 2007 at 1:49 am
    I am not sure where Billy “Joe” lives at or where his been to, but if he has ever been to California, Texas, New Mexico, Nevada..most of these states are not based on White (Anglo) customes but Spaniash/ Aztec customes.

    Spaniard (Arabic, Jewish, Gypsy and European mix)

    Look at the names, Los Angeles, San Francisco, Santa Cruz—whats so white about these names?
    Texas; (Tejas- Tiles). Nevada (Snowed), Colorado (Reddish)–what does Billy say when he goes to Taco Bell ” give me a corn-bread sandwish (Burrito) with grilled beef (Carne Asada), hold the Hot Peppers (Jalapeños)…

    So what does Billy mean by White culture?-

    Gomez, you are so stupid it is sad. Spanish people are not a mix of (Arabic, Jewish, Gypsy and European mix) Do you know Spanish people are from Spain? They are Celts, Galacians, Iberians, Castillians, Basque….. they are EUROPEANS. THEY DON”T LOOK LIKE PEOPLE FROM EL SALVADOR. LOOOOOOL!

  26. Bodan, Rodan?

    Anyways, yes Spainiards are Celts, Galacians, Castililians and so on….but also are Andalusians which are (Arab, Jews and Gypsies).

    Second, My mother is of Basque (last name,. Argueta), her great-great parents came from Spain to Honduras and later moved to El Salvador— :D

    Third, Who do you think conquer Latin America? The Chinesse?…We are Meztisos (MIXED) moran..and that includes Spanish blood.

  27. lol—I guess mentioning that the very dark Moorish people settled in Spain is just too much too digest..hehe.
    White people are called caucasian because they originated from the ________ mountains(I give you a hint–Its in the Chechen region of the world..) teehee

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