Monday Mailbag

I read in one of your posts that you understand/speak some Arabic. How did you accomplish that? Through books or socializing with Arabs/Arabic speakers?

 

I took some formal Arabic classes with a couple of teachers and briefly studied at the Mahad in Virginia. However, having said that, my Arabic is not great and I have learned much more just from talking to people than I did in classes as I am not a fan of the classroom setting.

 
You are critical of immigrant Muslims especially of Desis and Arabs so what’s more better or less difficult? Socializing with Desis or Arabs.  I don’t have much experience and want to be in an environment that is helpful. My very limited experience is with Desis but I haven’t found as much issues with them as you have written but I’ll in the future(??). Who’s more religious in your view and who’s more moderate or are they all the same?

 

Well who is more religious Desis or Arabs is a question that is subjective. Amongst both groups you will find the good and the bad. Over the years I have attended Masjids where both groups dominate. As far as who I get along with better I would say I get along much better with Arabs, but that is just me, and other people may get along better with Desis. Arab Masjids tend to be a little more traditional and conservative like I like and the Arab brothers like to sit around and laugh and tell stories and as a big BS’er I guess that is right up my alley. I have trouble connecting to a lot of Desi immigrants as I find most either have no sense of humor or one that is much different from mine and the second-generation Desis tend to be yuppies. Religiously they also tend to be either strict Hanafi or Tablique Masjids in the cities or very liberal  upscale social club oriented places in suburbia. The concept of a “moderate Muslim” is also one I reject and when I think of the word moderate I think of it being used in phrases such as “moderate drinker” or “moderate smoker” and it is always used to describe something bad. It is saying; Islam is something negative, but don’t worry I am only moderately Muslim.

 

I know you want Americans to marry Americans but let’s say I don’t want to marry a “white”. What would be your recommendation about which immigrant community to choose a wife from?

 

I am not saying that Americans should always marry Americans; but I am saying that if we want a healthy and vibrant American-Muslim community we have to stop thinking of Muslim sisters born and raised here, or who have lived here for a number of years, as less valuable than Muslim women from back home. If you don’t want to marry a white Muslim sister that is fine, although I will say that there are a lot of very sincere white Muslim sisters out there, but maybe your dislike for marrying a white woman is physical or cultural which is understandable and comes down to taste (myself I cant really envision a scenario of ever being married to a white woman). The American-Muslim community is very diverse and you have African-American, Arab, Desi, Latina, Asian and all sorts of Muslimas to choose from right here without raiding a village in Morocco or an island in Indonesia.

 

To further clarify my position I think it is healthy for Muslims studying overseas to marry a woman they met there or for American-Muslims who have some genuine connection, whether it be religious or shared interests, with a brother or sister from overseas; but almost all the brothers I know married to sisters from overseas, who did not live in the West prior to the marriage, are not happy, and believe me this is an issue I have thought long and hard about as I have had the opportunity to raid a Moroccan village myself. Finding a Muslim wife, or husband, in America is not easy (trust me, I know, and this is something I am thinking about daily).  

 

What is the most rewarding/challenging thing about being Muslim?

 

The most rewarding thing about being Muslim is that Allah has promised the believer paradise and I am comforted by the blessing of the knowledge of the Oneness of Allah (Islamic Monotheism) and the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah (PBUH). A further blessing is that I live on the frontiers of Islam and here in America we are opening a new chapter in the history of the Ummah and there is an excitement in the air. The challenge is I live in America and in this nation there is a tremendous hostility and hatred towards Islam and Muslims from a lot of people and I feel at this point in time a Muslim is basically a second-class citizen under the law in this country. The challenge is to try and clear the image my fellow Americans have towards Muslims.

 

How do you (personally) “keep it real” why simultaneously maintaining a sense of taqwa?

 

I can only be me, so I am not sure I even consciously think about something like that.

 

Do you think that African-American women are generally emasculating? If so why?

 

Yes, in general, and I feel this is because the majority of black women have had to be the mother and father and have had to take on a lot of that manly toughness and have had to change out of necessity for survival.

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59 thoughts on “Monday Mailbag

  1. Asalaamu alaikum.

    Interesting answers. Not that I agree 100% but we have had different experiences. I like the candor and honesty that you answer such questions with. And I totally agree with you about more willingness to marry American Muslim women, although in some cases I think the same message needs to be given to American Muslim women. I think some American Muslim men are ignored by women who are either looking for someone with more money, or the ability to travel, or even with sincere belief that it will help their deen or ability to learn Arabic to marry a man from a Muslim culture. And I hear alot of American Muslims (men and women) who say they don’t want someone with a past, with children from a previous relationship, or whose families were dysfunctional. To some degree, I get that because you want to build a firm foundation and if you know you don’t have the strength to take on someone else’s kids, it’s good that you are honest about it. But OTOH, I think it is pretty much impossible to find someone from this society who has had a perfect little life and doesn’t bring some baggage into things. Like when I’ve heard “I want someone whose parents gave her a stable home, no fighting, no abuse, and strong values”. I’m not saying that’s impossible, but it is hard to find and then they are cutting out a lot of good sisters (or brothers) who have become good Muslims in part precisely because of rough upbringing.

  2. Good comments. Arabic is not a language one can learn from a book, nor is it a language that you can become proficient in by sitting in a classroom.

    The best way to learn is some classroom work, especially for the basics and advanced grammar, but one MUST spend time speaking it on a day to day basis to get good at it.

    I think the questioner ought to be aware that what is taught in the classroom setting is not day to day conversational Arabic, rather it is “fus7a” or academic/religious Arabic and is not what is spoken in conversation.

    I have met brothers who, masha’Allah, speak great Fus7a Arabic, but cannot hold a conversation in Arabic that most Arabs can understand. This is what happens when you learn Arabic from classrooms and books but have no interaction with real Arabs. You learn a academic form the language that is useless beyond most Khutbas or watching Arabic news.

  3. ^ and you have a lot of Arabs who can’t read the Quran. The main reason to learn Arabic is to read the Quran and study Islam. Conversation is nice, but not important.

  4. Umar said ‘The concept of a “moderate Muslim” is also one I reject’.

    I also have my reserves for this word or phrase ‘I am a Moderate….’

    I think people are trying to say or make a distinction between fanatics and regular Muslims and maybe the closest word or phrase they fine is Moderate. But moderate just means you are a casual person, you take religion lightly.

    I do agree with Umar about the word moderate, but I don’t think all Muslims who say they are moderate take Islam lightly (the liberal approach) but rather they are separating themselves from the fanatics.

    At the end of the day you have Radical/ Fanatics so-called Muslims and you have regular everyday Muslims.

  5. “myself I cant really envision a scenario of ever being married to a white woman”

    If I said “I can’t really envision a scenario of ever being married to a black woman” (which to a certain extent is true), I’d get called a racist.

  6. It would be rather odd to find an Arab, who is otherwise literate, who cannot read The Qur’an. Why? Because in school the Arabic they are taught is Qur’anic, “Fus7a” Arabic.

    If an Arab went to school and passed they can read The Qur’an. The only Arab who could not read The Qur’an would be an Arab who is illiterate. Even literate Christian Arabs would be able to read The Qur’an as they study the same classical/Qur’anic Arabic as do Muslim Arabs.

    I guess to what skill they can read The Qur’an is a different story. Arabic, especially MSA/Qur’anic Arabic is very hard to master and that is why Arabs take Arabic languages classes all the way through university.

    The question, as posed to Umar, seemed to have more to do with the socialising end of the spectrum when the questioner asked:

    “Through books or socializing with Arabs/Arabic speakers?”

    One cannot learn Qur’anic Arabic through speaking with Arabs or Arabic speakers, because people do not converse in Qur’anic Arabic.

    The only thing close you are going to find close to “Qur’anic Arabic” is a Khutba, some religion classes, Arabic classes, Newspapers and some TV media. All conversation, otherwise in the Arabic world, is done in dialect.

  7. Haqq posts “If I said “I can’t really envision a scenario of ever being married to a black woman” (which to a certain extent is true), I’d get called a racist.”

    This has to do with preference. I am white, like Umar, but really dont find white women attractive. It isnt personal, it isnt a race issue. There are white women I do find attractive, just not many.

    I like dark skin, dark hair and dark eyes, it is a personal preference.

    When I decided to get married to looked for several things. I look for a woman with looks mentioned above, I wanted a lady who spoke native Arabic and who was sound in her deen. I wanted to advance my Arabic skills and wanted a person that could help me learn my deen, not someone I had to teach it to.

    These are all preferences. Alhamdulillah, I got someone that matched everything I wanted.

    I have nothing against white women, I just dont prefer them.

  8. Umar, I think your issues with desis and Arabs(not to excuse snobbery and inferiority complex of some) have more to do with class and upward mobility then the laughable stereotypes you use to tar both groups.

  9. DRM, I do not believe in the concept of stereotypes. It is laughable if you suggest there is no obvious difference in the outward expressions of the different groups and often different mannerisms.

  10. If that is so,Umar, then why always portray one group as a bunch of wimps hopped up on Bollywood and the other as looking at Palestine as the sixth pillar of Islam? Client regimes, ok but “failed states”?
    That, my friend IS stereotypying.

  11. I have to take issue with you saying African-American women are emasculating. I’d like you to elaborate on what you’re saying. I don’t want to go off until I fully understand…

  12. DRM I will no revisit Pali, my position is known, and s far as Desis there has been a lot written and studied within that community on the docile nature they have had n the past and tis effects on culture and politics ( see the writings of Christophe Jaffrelot). Again I do not believe in the whole notion of stereotypes, I believe that peoples with shared histories will , for the most part, behave in predictable patterns on the whole. AS far as Pakistan being a failed state, I mean the overwhelming evidence of corruption, poverty, the lack of a strong central government, brain drain,etc. while India is become a superpower is elf-evident, and both were client-states. The problem with Pakistan is not the influence of Western superhumans, but int he culture, and it started with the failed idea of partition which has brought suffering to so many people.

    Jamerican Muslimah, this is an easy one, go to any black church and look at the old women in dresses and hats and then go outside and look at the avergae black woman on the street, the difference will be evident. Black women have had to become more masculine ebcause the majority of black mothers are doing it alone ( and in my hometown of St. Louis 83% of black households are led by single women), so when the plumbing needs fixed and the lawn needs mowed guess who has to do it? When the kids needs th belt taken to them who does it? Having to do this will take an effect on other aspects of the woman.

  13. Umar, I totaly disagree with this notion of failed state of Pakistan.

    Beleive me, the culture of pakistan and india, aside from the religion(which should be a huge thing) is almost identical.

    There are a few differences however(not an exhaustive list by any means).
    -The US wants to see India strong to counter Pakistan and keep China in check.
    -Its well known that the pakistani government has been unstable due to the sellouts the USA puts in power. How do you think general zia just happened to blow up in a plane. Coincidence? I think not. Why do you think bhutto and king fahad(or was it faisal?) who were both blown up cuz they were apparently talking of some sort of unity deal.
    -Other than that, i do think that the ummah of today as a whole is much like the people of egypt whom Musa was sent to. They were used to humiliation and were a people with an inferiority complex.
    -The desis have a HUGE inferiority complex. The arabs don’t have this as much at all, even though they try to copy the west as well. I’m a desi married to an Arab so i can tell, having compared both cultures.

  14. Umar, I think you do have somewhat of a superficial knowledge on matters of cultures. You might think you have deep understanding but I’m afraid to say that’s not the case. You are judging cultures with your own cultural baggage and through a different perspective. And, this is in no way a rant or criticism but my very sincere, honest opinion about the entries you make.

    If one is to use your definition, then what Muslim state is not a failed state (outside of southeast Asian states maybe)? The arguments you make against Pakistan is true for most Muslim states. So, are you saying Muslim countries in general are failed states?? I hope not! If you attribute this Pakistani failure to the culture there, then do you blame the cultures of all the countries (assuming all Muslims states are failed states by your definition)? I hope not! Maybe you think exclusively that Pakistan is a real “failed state” but others aren’t. If that is the case, then you need to provide more convincing argument than what you have done because by your definition every Muslim country is a failed state.

    If you think reading some Western authors’ books on Muslim countries and observing their expatriates in the US give you a true understanding of Muslim countries then you are quite wrong.

    On a personal note, if by docile you mean introvert, then I agree to some degree. But, if you mean easily gullible/manageable (which I don’t think you do since you criticize their Hanafism, etc.) then I disagree. I want to say another thing but will wait for this discussion to progress.

  15. Jasim,

    Yes I think almost every Muslim state is a failed state and it is due to culture. I believe this because I believe in the Quran and Allah says He will not change the condition of a people until they change the condition of themselves. He does not say that the condition of a people only changes when the West is nice to them because they are inferior and helpless children incapable of effecting change in their won lives because of some bogeyman. Culture matters almost more than anything else, and it is why an Ashkenazi Jews can go anywhere in the world and succeed, a Desi can go to poor society and develop business, and Lebanese can go to West Africa and dominate trade, and an Ibo can come to America and become one of the most educated groups in the society. I believe in the classical interpretation of the Quran and Sunnah, not the Marxist one mixed with liberal PC thought which is Western thought and at its core is white supremacist as it was developed by white thinkers who believed the dark people of the world couldn’t succeed without their benevolence. I believe in Allah, who is above His Throne, and not in the deity of any group of men who have the power to determine the fate of the world. The failure of the Muslim societies is also the founding premise of every modern Islamic movement that is political in nature.

    Talk what you know, I have never read more than chapter or two of a non-Muslim writing about the Muslim World, and I have not read any such book for 3 years as I have boycotted books about Islam and Muslims from non-Muslims. That is more than I can say than all of these Muslims who have links to books by Noam Chomsky, Christian Parenti and other people who have nothing but hostility for the faith of Islam on their pages.

    Maybe you are only comfortable with a guilty white liberal (who had to first say to themselves that they are superior to non-whites in order to have that mindset) and white Muslim who fettishizes cultures and runs around looking like a fool dressed in a Hare Krishna outfit and glosses over any problems with Muslims because they are too busy licking boots, that aint me.

  16. Umar, did I blame the West for the troubles in Muslim countries? My point is that you can’t exclusively say these people have cultural problems and thus their countries are failures. You might have stopped reading books of Western authors on Islam/Muslims or read only a few chapters, but I don’t think you’ve shaken that mentality. Also, despite boycotting such books/Western thoughts on the East you came up with the name of Christophe Jaffrelot to provide a reference for reading up on Pakistani culture. I still very sincerely believe that you have quite a superficial understanding of Arabs/Desis. You can’t sit in a culture totally opposite of Arabs/Desis and try to make authoritative comments on their behaviors.

    You find Arabs wanting only whites, doing all sorts of things, being individually-unsuccessful and what not. You find Desis too rich, yuppies, docile and what not. I’ve experience in both cultures and although you might find some of the characteristics, they are not as prevalent as you make it to be. Plus, you cannot associate US-Arab or US-Desi culture with actual Arab and Desi culture. You spend a long time in an Arab country and you won’t find them overly sexed up and what not, and you spend a long time in Pakistan and you won’t find them docile and what not at all. It’s laughable how you label the two cultures. I might grant you that your analysis is ok for US-Arabs or US-Desis, but you can’t extend the analysis beyond that. Actually, one can but your analysis (which comes from your background) fails to do so. I don’t want to be demeaning, but think about it: Almost everyone makes similar observations as you make. The difference is while most others are not passing judgments, you are and sharing with others. I don’t think one has to be scholar of history/sociology, etc to come up with a good analysis. But, I do think one needs more than going around meeting expatriates, etc. and coming up with a view of their cultures back home.

    PS: You will say I did live in an Arab country (Palestine) and even people there asked for white women. But, how long did you stay and do you think you can extend that to others in that culture. Also, I won’t be surprised you unconsciously seem to seek such personalities. You’ve set a hypothesis that in general Muslims cultures are failures and then you set out to prove your hypothesis. For example, you specifically set out to find that unique “American-Desi” culture in high-places and lo and behold, you find the bad ones. Wassalam

  17. Jasim beat me to it I guess, but Umar is trying to trying to take out many birds with one stone, superficially ofcourse. As far as Palestine goes, I’m not an Arab and sure don’t see the liberation struggle of the Palestinians as the “sixth pillar” of Islam. Thats a strawman argument. And no, I don’t care if the Israelis have a prayer room for Muslims at Ben Gurion airport, that doesn’t negate the fact that they’re a bunch of genocidal racist bastards.
    I despise modern desi culture but the comments about partition of the Indian sub-continent are incredibly ill-informed. Maybe they are “wimpy” compared to the the “ho’s and bro’s” culture of the hood, but books and professional job will take you much further in life then bullets and bling. The same applies to the yuppie ipod culture of white liberals. Seriously Umar, I detect resentment in your posts at these “wimps” who come from abroad and zoom past the natives through hard work and and a strong emphasis on education. Class issues and upward mobility anyone? Give them credit where its due. Hijrah won’t do you much good if you don’t have the skills or education needed to live anywhere.
    No society is perfect but to call entire nations “failed states” is ignorant and reminiscent of racist neocon carping. If bad governance, rampant corruption and instability is the criteria, then the US, with its invasion and plunder of Iraq would make the grade as a “failed” state also. And I don’t need ol’ man Chomsky to come up with that. And please, keep the white woman.

  18. Dr. M, if you weren’t so eager to shit talk working class white Americans and Jews, maybe I’d take your indignation a little more seriously. But probably not.

  19. Regarding the understanding of another culture, anthropologists do field work for a minimum of two years. Living in another country for a couple months or a year can give you a decent understanding of the culture but not anything close to a full understanding. I’ve been living in S’pore for 4.5 years now, and it’s only now that my wife says I think like a Malay. If you haven’t spent some serious time in a culture, don’t assume that your knowledge of that culture is necessarily correct.

  20. I think you’re under the mistaken impression that I care what you think about my supposed “attack on working class whites,” DA. Don’t foam at the mouth because others used their time wisely and made something out of themselves.
    That being said, stay in school and on your meds.

  21. Umar,

    I used to mow our lawn as a teenager, it was called a chore. My father taught me how to ride a motorcycle and of course I inherited my love of sports from him. I wouldn’t call the single (by choice or force (divorce or death) black mothers emasculate, I’d say they are doing their jobs. As a mother, we have to ensure our children are properly educated, feed, disciplined… whether a man is present or not.

    Using your logic, then NUMEROUS Muslim women, who are not black, would be emasculate, especially those in polygamous relationships because sister Fatima cannot wait until her turn next week for brother Umar to come discipline the children and fix her flat tire, and the leak in the kitchen. Also, we must include the tons of Muslim men, who live in one country (as my husband and I are currently doing, and it’s something his father did) and the wife another. The majority of foreign men I’ve met have a wife back home, so I assume she’s doing what black and white (because we have to remember rural white america where they live NO DIFFERENT than those in the inner cities) women.

    Why look down on the woman because she’s doing what has to be done? The sad thing, if she fucks up, then everyone will jump on her but I know many wonderful and successful black men and women who are products of single parent (be it mother or father) homes. Black men are also doing the thing as single fathers…there a plenty of them in the DC metro area, so can we say because they are combing their girls’ hair, washing dishes, cooking, helping with the homework… they are effeminate? No, this is called doing one’s duty as a parent and what sets them and deadbeats (which is more than passing off a few dollars each month).

    Sorry but I feel offended by your comments, still love you though because after my first divorce when I accepted ISlam, I was a single mother…I did my best and refuse to allow anyone to insult my or any other single parent’s effort.

    Hell, half of us married womena re single parents because our men, especially muslim men don’t do a darn thing in the areas of childrearing and housework, including leaking faucets!

  22. You’ve already used the “meds” line, Doc. Try being a little creative, you’re like a broken record. And yeah, I’m not a wannabe internet demagogue or a urologist, but working with ghetto kids on and off the clock all week does fulfill me and I’m not rich but I do okay. I’m in school, true. I spent a lot of my younger years doing other stuff, good or bad. It means I have what you might call a wealth of “experiential knowledge”, so I’m capable of thinking for myself and not making bad psuedo-puns as a substitute for actual arguments. I’m goin to school on my own dime too, don’t have any rich parents in Pakistan paying my way.

    I love how you live here in the west though. Why ever criticize the countries you guys ran away from, why not just blame every Muslim fuck-up on Israel and America and progressivism?No problems in KSA, Pakistan, Egypt, and Somalia, no sir. Or um, if they are, it’s all imperialism’s fault. Or the Jews. The clever word game about America being a failed state notwithstanding, I’m not seeing a lot of Americans running away to live in the Muslim world, I’m seeing many people talk empty about hijrah online and a few actually do it. Plenty of Muzzies comin this way though, chief.

    Go ahead. Call me a redneck again and invalidate my opinion. It’s not like that’s a form of jahiliya idiocy or anything. Or like with Omar, imply I enjoy rape. It’s about as valid as me trying to discredit yoru veiws by saying “DrM is a fag on the downlow like most of his countrymen”, which I would never say because it’d be slanderous.

  23. Salaam’Alaikum Brother Umar

    I respectfully disagree with your comments that black women emasculate all men.

    As a wife and a mother, people who reinforce that belief horrify me, and for it to be a Muslim is even worse. Astafirullah.

    Many of the black women I’ve herd you speak of on your blog and also on Tariq Nelson blog are from two or three generations of broken families, poverty, and illiteracy. Allot of the fitnah from some of these women is due to their uprbringing, educational level, and financial status.

    Another issue people who bash us also seem to forget is that practicing Islam is counterculture. It’s not just black women it’s all women. Many of us are belittled as psychphants for cooperting, supporting, and respecting our husbands. Many of shamed for allowing our husbands to be the head of the house and lead his family. I’m so sick and tired of everything that goes wrong in the Muslim community being our fault.

    This only reinforces and covers up the domestic violence many black women who are Muslim are enduring and their children are enduring on a daily basis. Nobody hears their crys for help becuase they are being ungrateful, sassy, or talk too much. It’s not until she’s hospitalized or her children are dead that people step up to do something about it.

    And for the record, I didn’t marry a African American man, Alhamidilal hir rub alameen. I married a West African brother and have never dealt with the frakernackle bull the African American brothers do my fellow black sisters in Islam.

    All the African American sisters I know who are stable, happy, and educated are married to brothers from overseas becuase they don’t feel emotionally safe enough to marry a black american. How’s that for some reality? When people don’t feel safe and trusting around you the problem isn’t them, its you.

  24. Brother Abu Sinan

    I enjoyed your post brother.

    I too married a born Muslim, and I did it for the some of the same reasons you married your wife.
    May Allah bless your family, and grant you the desires of your heart.

    Ameen

  25. “This has to do with preference. I am white, like Umar, but really dont find white women attractive. It isnt personal, it isnt a race issue. There are white women I do find attractive, just not many.”

    Basically, you’re a white person who has problems with whiteness. It’s not normal to find your own race unattractive, and there is a big element of self-loathing in it.

  26. Yawn, yes I’ve used the line about “meds” on you before DA, and as ever it applies again. Speaking of repetition, your strawman arguments are getting old. What is ironic is that guys like you take issue with my criticism of parts of western culture, yet seem to think its just fine and dandy to call dozens of countries “failed states” where I supposedly ran away from, and no, people “there” aren’t conspiracy theorists who blame everything on Israel. Come up with a better right wing red herring.
    Only 5% of Americans have passports so its obvious that most aren’t going anywhere, Muslim world or otherwise. Given the lack of education and language skills, thats not a surprise, unless ofcourse you consider stealing oil part of tourism. This brings me back to my original point that one can dislike modern desi and Arab culture all they want but still respect the fact that most have a rock solid work ethic with a strong emphasis on education. Try learning from them and you might realize that no amount of nativist whining is a substitute for hard work and success.

  27. abdul-haqq “Basically, you’re a white person who has problems with whiteness. It’s not normal to find your own race unattractive, and there is a big element of self-loathing in it.”

    Are you a Muslim? You name would make me think so, but your words certainly don’t.

    I have no problem with “whiteness”. I was born in Europe and raised with that culture. Are you white? Is this where you comments are coming from? You sound a bit self conscious.

    What is “whiteness” anyways? If you are white care to have a Goethe poetry reciting competition? I bet I win. Would fluency in the works of the German world’s Shakespeare prove my “whiteness”?

    Let’s see, I get into European soccer, I am an avid fan of Glasgow Celtic and traveled every weekend to watch the matches when I lived in England, does that improve my “whiteness”? I still go an watch the matches at a local pub, I just don’t drink. I hang out with all “white people” there, does that boost my “whiteness”?

    Hum…….. I saw my first opera at age 14, Puccini’s Tosca, I have seen every Wagner opera staged, and own the complete works of Beethoven and Mozart on CD, over 200 CDs, as well as all of Puccini’s operas and Verdi’s. Does that scoot me up the “whiteness” scale at all?

    It is my experience that most people who tout the “whiteness” bit don’t have the first clue about what makes the European people, as a whole, such a great people. People who bang on about “whiteness” are those who think the pinnacle of European/American culture is Toby Keith and Budweiser.

    I would think you and I have a completely different idea of what “whiteness” is in the first place. I am a Muslim with a European background. I am fully aware of my European heritage, what it means, and I am 100% proud of it.

    Non of this changes the fact that I just don’t find white women attractive. It doesn’t mean I am going to run out and start wearing Arabic Thiab (robes) nor does it mean I am going to try to be some “Ali G” character of what people think a Muslim should look like or think like. I am completely 100% European and still 100% Muslim, and the beauty about Islam is that isn’t contradictory! Alhamdulillah.

    I have found some white women attractive, but those tend to be the Italian and Spanish women with dark hair, eyes and olive complex that owe so much to the Muslim ancestors.

    Get over your race obsession “abdul-haqq”, it is completely unIslamic.

  28. >>It’s not normal to find your own race unattractive,

    What’s normal?? And, does your statement imply that you think races shouldn’t mix, because that’s the kind of line people who despise marrying outside of thier race say. I’m white, and much like Abu Sinan find oliveness and dark hair attractive as I’m an Italian and frankly don’t care much for the Nordic Aryan look of the Britishers and Germans or Irish. Great people, but I’d rather not mate with any of them…

  29. Good points Omar. Is this “abdul Haqq” the “white power/neo-Nazi” that used to post here telling others that Muslims should work with the Nazis?

    This guy also claimed to be a Muslim, but said Islam didnt prohibit keeping “his race pure”.

    There seems a similar racial mindset with this guy.

    Obessesion with race, whether for marriage or political purposes, is unIslamic.

  30. Jasim, that guy writes on Hindus, not Muslims. If you are going to tell me that a Desi in America is just as likely to be a longshoreman, boxer, plumber, or bricklayer as he is to be an engineer or doctor I am going to laugh.
    As far as Arabs, if you total it up, I have spent about 2 years in Arab countries, and most of my opinions are based on that, and I can tell you that on most days, most that is, I was approached by people asking me if I could get them to America and hook them up with a white girl.
    Bint Will and Maragri, my point is not that black women are a threat to black men, my point is that black society in America is becoming a matriarchy because of the collapse of the black male.

  31. I will also go back to an earlier point. I think many people, Muslim and non-Muslim, are only comfortable with a white American either glossing over all problems in other cultures or fettishizing cultures and running around looking like a Hare Krishna and hating themselves. So, if I was to speak only positively of other cultures that would be great, but it would also be a lie, and a lie that many white liberals have perfected.
    What disgusts me are white Muslims who become Arabs or whatever. Do you think people look at you like an Arab or Desi or do they look at you like a joke?
    I am not going to sit here and cheerlead for anyone. It is fine if I critique America, but God forbid anyone else, while non-Americans who have never been here are free to say whatever they please and by the liberal rules you are going by I am just supposed to sit like an ashamed little school boy. Yea right, save that crap for the coffee shop yuppies you are sued to.
    Also, on this note, I would say my list of friends and associates is probably more diverse than anyone on here. I look at my cell phone and I got Arab deli and beauty supply owners and engineers, Desi IT guys and cabbies, African immigrant street vendors and accountants, African-American drug dealers and millionaires, white leftists and right-wingers, Somali cabbies and elders, and the list goes on. Do those that criticize me have such a list? Or you cant Google that up or check it out of Barnes and Noble?
    In the end we have a lot of Muslims who are more influenced by their liberal educators than any kind of a traditional world view of a Muslim and seem to be under the impression that they themselves are not engaging in a white Eurocentric world view when in fact they are.

  32. “What disgusts me are white Muslims who become Arabs or whatever. Do you think people look at you like an Arab or Desi or do they look at you like a joke?”

    What exactly does that mean though? To my mind it’s another stick to hit women (as it’s usually women who are accused of this) with. Either they are accused of being ignorant of their husband’s culture, especially if they are living in the husband’s country, or they are trying to be Arab e.tc. You can’t win.

    So what if a non Desi women wears Shalwar Khalmeez and only cooks Desi food? Culture and ethnicity are far more then food or dress.What ever works for a couple, it’s not anyone’s place to judge except Allah swt.

    Disgust is a very strong word to use about people who are just trying to live in harmony with their spouses.

  33. Safiya, not that I am opposed to a women trying to please her husband, but why cant it be a two-way street? Why do you have to surrender your culture and who you are and when you think like an American your spouse says “there you go thinking like an American again” and you shake your head as if you have just imitated shaytan. Also, FYI, I was thinking about brothers when I said this.

    I point to a previous post of mine

    http://umarlee.blogspot.com/2006/06/when-american-couple-only-eats-arab.html

  34. I’m not a nativist by any stretch of the imagination, Doc. I’ve left America several times and am doing so again in a couple weeks. I’m also multilingual, involved in immigrant activism, and oppose the Iraq war. Nor am I a Zionist, nor a progressive Muslim, nor just about anything you like calling me. However, I’m also not one of the Gunga Din white boys who will carry water for politicized Islam just because I took shahadah, and adopt a black and white worldveiw that’s just the flipside of the neocon one. Any day you wanna actually address an argument with anything but an (overused) ad-hominem attack, just be sure and let me know.

  35. I see the point you were making. I think a massive, massive problem in interracial marriages is when one partner’s culture is seen as superior to the other. It is Islamic to see the good in your spouse.

    Sadly, many converts feel the need to be ashamed of their culture, not realising that Islamic values can be found and applied to most cultures, as your post describes. It doesn’t help that “Western” culture is frequently disparaged and misunderstood.

    I am married to an Arab and we respect each other’s cultures and we intend to raise any children we have, insha Allah, to identify with both. They’d better have a British sense of humour anyway, lol.

    Before we got married, in the very early stages of our courtship, I asked why he wasn’t marrying a girl from back home. I also made it plain that I am the outspoken sort and a rubbish cook to boot, just so he was under no false illusions. Likewise, he was very clear with me about what he wanted in a spouse.

    One of the biggest mistakes Muslims make in marriage is not being honest with themselves and others about what they are looking for in a spouse.

    For example, there is nothing wrong with wanting a quiet, docile, stay at home wife, so long as you make it very clear that’s what you’re after. If you want a university educated brother, be clear about that. If you expect your spouse to dress a certain way, say so, before you get married.

    If deep down, you think badly of people from “x” culture, don’t marry someone of that culture, as no matter what similarities Islam will bring, everyone is a product of their culture to some extent and your disdain for their culture may soon become disdain of them.

    People constantly recite the hadith about choosing the most righteous, but compatibility and similar life goals are vital

  36. I’m not the one who’s obsessed with race. I never said I was against interracial relationships (I’m not). You are all putting words in my mouth. I’m not a white supremacist, or a racist of any stripe.

    I just think that self-hatred is stupid no matter what background someone comes from. One should be pleased with the way Allaah (subhanu wa ta’ala) created them, and the way he created others as well. I think that the fact that people were accusing me of being a Nazi is very telling of the sort of attitude that you people have. I am a Muslim, and I seek refuge with Allaah (subhanu wa ta’ala) from any sort of asabiyya (one of the most evil traits of jahiliyya), whether it be against my race or anyone elses.

  37. Thanks Umar for the clarification. There is a collapse of Black manhood and that collapse makes it hard for women. What we have going on for masculinity is kind of a joke with my generation. Same thing for femininity. Whatever happened to men who took pride for standing up, being a man, supporting and protecting your family, and having integrity. Usually those men aren’t able to deal with real women. Instead, they jump from woman to woman in futile efforts to assert their masculinity and dominance. I know so many women who are despairing of finding a man that they can stand behind. For every Malcolm, there was a Betty Shabazz. I don’t have the skill set to teach a man who doesn’t know how to be a man. I’m not pumping up NOI, but it seems like they did a good job taking broken men and teaching them how to be men. I know a new Muslim brother who is thinking about going into counseling and psychology to deal with the emotional problems that a lot of new converts bring into the community. I’m sure a lot of born Muslims have a whole bunch of emotional baggage too, they just have more of a shame culture to keep their drama under wraps.

    Abdul Haqq
    I don’t think that Umar or Abu Sinan have racial self hatred for not being attractive to white women. I see from their posts and their writing that they are proud of their culture and who they are.

  38. Umar, very odd! If the guy (Christophe Jaffrelot) wrote about Hindus, then why did you referenced him regarding Pakistan? You’ve completed missed my point. I don’t care if you think that most Desis are highly educated and rich, my point was that you can’t make authoritative comments about other cultures while sitting in the US unless you do extensive research instead of making mere observations that all human beings make. So, I don’t disagree with you that most Desis wouldn’t come here and become boxer, plumber. Think about it, why would they? If they wanted to be a plumber, they didn’t have to come to a foreign land. But, I don’t disagree with the notion that Desis (or any immigrant) would look for upward mobility. My contention is that you use small examples of immigrant lives here and extend it wrongly to the cultures back home.

    I vehemently disagree with the assertion you make that in general Desis are rich but Arabs are not that highly educated, ghetto-like, non-serious fun-loving like the “keeping it real” Americans. This is a significant misjudgment on your part, believe me. You seem to know about NoVa—kindly brief us how much of this generalization is true there about Arabs.

    I never asked you to not love your culture and only speak good about Arab/Desi culture. In my honest opinion, your rant about not “lying” about other cultures reflects your preconceived notions and cultural baggage. I’ve been making one point: Do not sit here and pass and share judgment about other cultures without doing your homework. If your experience has been that Arabs are always horny for whites and don’t live in suburbia like Desis, don’t try to extend that particular experience to the actual Arab culture back in Middle East. Similarly, if your experience has been that Desis are rich, live in suburbia which makes them yuppies and docile, don’t extend that particular experience to the actual culture back in Pakistan or India. For Allah’s sake, looking at income/capita and the problem brewing there every day, I would say Pakistan is more poorer than almost all Middle East countries except maybe Yemen and Pakistanis least docile. I don’t know type of Arabs you had been associating with when you were in Middle East that each day people came up to you and asked to be hitched up with a whitie. But, my experience has not been that at all.

    I can be totally off here and correct me if I’m wrong, but one of the things I’ve noticed in you through your writings is something that Muslims should avoid. I would say you look at a religiously inclined/practicing Muslim and you don’t think the best of him. You probably think what does this guy do while alone? He must be a phony: acting all religious and doing all kinds of things at home, watching TV, movies, abusing internet, etc., must have bad qualities that his culture (for immigrant Muslims) is so bad or say ‘look at this joker convert, what a fool, trying to be all Desi and Arab’. If you had been a Desi or Arab, I would say you, yes sir, you would be the type who would have looked at a convert dressed like an Arab or Desi and laughed at him/her behind his back. I think that’s why you think that others must make fun of such converts. What a low opinion you have for other Muslims, sad. And, this is purely based off your writings on this blog. I hope my assessment is wrong but, based on this blog, you cannot fault me for making this observation! You seem to contradict yourself often as well. I don’t have the energy or the drive to sift through your blog and put up references–at least not today. As an example, you like “traditional”, “conservative” masajid as well as disdain “strict” masajid. What’s the actual case? Hopefully, you’ll be able to answer without trying to lecture me on the fact that traditional and conservative isn’t equal to strict.

  39. I see your point and disagree. I never said Arabs were not successful, or that you had to live in suburbia to be successful by the way, you have a mixed bag with them and myself I consider the Arab small-business owner to be a success and know Arab doctors, engineers, businessmen, car dealers, drug dealers, con-men you name it- it is a mixed bag. You out words in my mouth, I must have hit a raw never or you are overly sensitive.

    Another point, why come to America to be a plumber or bricklayer? Because a good one in America makes more than a lot of doctors and they are very good businesses. Do me a favor, next time you are in the middle-east, tell me how well plumbers and bricklayers get treated? Some communities, such as the Italians in America, had a path to the middle-class and upper-class rooted in a lot of the construction trades. There is a different cultural notion amongst Desis and Arabs towards those jobs, they are not respected, but amongst a lot of people in America those are respected jobs. Look in NYC and you will see a lot of Muslim immigrant cab drivers, and very few in the trades, even though the money is better than in the trades and they could get hired.

    I like strict masjids by the way, just not fanatical ones, like the one where I used to attend where a crippled sister fell of her crutches and the brothers just walked by and did nothing because they didn’t want to touch a woman. You are in NoVa, I will give you an example, I think Dar al Hijrah is the best masjid in America. FYI, you don’t know what I think when I see a Muslim.

    Maybe I contradict myself but I say how I feel. Most Muslims just pick a party line; Salafi, Sufi, Progressive, etc. and stick with it and say whatever they think people of that group are supposed to say 100% of the time.

    While you make are looking in me I see in you the kind of Muslim who doesn’t like self-examination, ignores problems and blames all the problems with Muslims on other people.

  40. I think that we need to chill out with some of the black male bashing here. There are many good black men out there as mates, but these men are overlooked by many black women who are into dating thugs and other low-lifes that are accepted as the status-quo for being a black male. Personally I know many professional black men, but only ONE of them is invovled with a black woman. Why? because many of our African-American sisters have an infatuation with low-lifes and ex-cons. When they get shitted on by the so called “bad-boy” then she cries foul and thinks she deserves a “good guy” the same guy that she dissed in here prime years. Now that the same sister has several thug spawn(kidz) from this deadbeat, they then look for the estudious, hard-working “good guy” to clean up her emotional mess. To hell with this attitude. I would suggest to all American men to date foreign women who still have traditional values and can still appreciate GOOD HARDWORKING MEN who are not thugs. The black male bashing has to stop because the good AA brother are IGNORED because they don’t approach a AA with “fly game” etc.

  41. Yahya, I know of a good friend of mine like that. he grew up in the hood and was the son of educated middle-class parents., was a good student, went into the army and excelled, and then worked as an engineer with a degree, and black women never gave him the time of day so he married a Moroccan. Meanwhile, they were all over his cousin who had a mouth full of gold-teeth, three baby mammas, a lengthy arrest record, and drove around in a big county a** Cadillac, and never had a job ( and a lot of these were educated black women). I see your point; but that doesn’t change the reality that there are so many more educated and successful black women than men and that a very high-percentage of black men, including a slight- majority in my hometown of St. Louis ( and Baltimore) as two examples, have been in the system.

  42. Umar, first you’ve glossed over most of my points by just “disagreeing” with them. Anyways, nobody from ME or Pakistan comes to the US dreaming of becoming a bricklayer because they think such a job will not pay as much and you can’t change that type of thinking. But, if immigrants are not bricklayer, they are cab drivers like you so what’s the big deal. To some degree their being cabbies refutes your point that immigrant would look down upon such jobs. And, I know many Arabs/Desis you are working “lowly” jobs. So, do you think they were transformed when they came here because it seems you can’t fathom the thought that immigrants might not look down upon such jobs. Yes some immigrants do look down upon them but so does people in every culture. You are dreaming if you think white, rich Americans have the same respect for a bricklayer as they do for a CEO.

    Ok, at least you don’t find Arabs fanatics as many do (although I don’t agree with Desis being fanatics either—fanatic in Hanafism but not in general terms). They way you write, I would have thought it would be right up your ally to call Arabs fanatics and blame their culture for it. I don’t live in NoVa but I’m familiar with it. Ok, you like Dar al Hijrah. Before I say much, what do you think of ADAMS? Dar al Hijrah is diverse (diverse not in the sense that Desis and Arabs, but in the sense that Desis and Arabs don’t have monopoly there at the top) and not that strict in terms of what madhab they follow there, so maybe that’s why you like it there, is that right?

    Yes, since you contradict yourself and just write what you feel about other cultures (your observations) you could be way off the mark, agree?

    I’ll say what you said to me. You don’t know me and how I think. At least, my judgement was based on more than a couple of comments here. But, yes, by Allah, I don’t know your character, your personality, your intentions so we will leave this character examination of each other here.

  43. Yahya,

    You don’t want us to bash black men, but you just bashed black women. Have you been to PG county? I see numerous black doctors, lawyers, engineers, businessmen, entertainers (athletes, artist) married to black women.

    All of us do not want thugs, but if you took the time to leave the block you’d know that. Ever interacted with an educated sister? an afrocentric sister or just the girls in the hood? Perhaps if SOME black men stop preying on little black girls (go to any black message board and you’ll read for yourself that in the hood it’s a right of passage for little 14/15 black girls to loose their virginity to a nasty cussword 23/25/30 year old black man). WE all don’t have children out of wedlock by your broke cousin pookie or Leroy.

    Aren’t you the son of a black woman? Where did she go wrong? I have a preference for nonblack men but I will never bash my black brothers in the same dispicable manner you have bashe the very women who bore you.

    What kind of man are you to suggest that we black women do not have traditional values? How the hell is it that the black man who was raised by the single black woman manage to get values yets his sisters don’t – pass the prozac!

    I wasn’t raised a Muslim, but married as a virgin, as did my sister who is still Christian and married to the same man. My mother and grandmothers didn’t have children out of wedlock. The values I hold today are because of the values my black parents instilled in me.

    Get your head check brother, no wonder you missed your prized nubian queen. No matter what you end up with you’ll always be miserable and she’ll be a loser because she’s nothing but a bandage to an old wound you need to heal.

  44. I think its great that immigrant Muslims come here and make it good. That’s what America is all about. what’s not so great at all is how many of them, whether they’ve made it or not treat the indigenous Muslims as second class when they even bother to acknowledge us at all. Most of the time when they do is when someone gets elected to political office (Ellison) or they need a token American spokesman that the media can actually figure out what he’s saying (Hooper). Then, they come knocking at the door and spout all that “We’re bruzers, so donate generously (so I can take your money to buy influence with the beoble of XYZ and advance our bolitical azhenda.)” That’s got to change.

  45. Yahya,
    I know plenty of educated and hard working Black Muslim sisters who are not looking for thugs. Instead, they are looking for hard working brothers who are not intimidated by them. I’m not generalizing all Black men, but saying that those who feel emasculated by Black women or are afraid of Black women have masculinity issues that I can’t solve.

    I know I don’t go for thugs. That’s so high school dunya. In fact, I’ve been called all sorts of names from and physcially threatened when I was coming up by thugs in my neighborhood and on the bus stops.
    I’d have to say that for every nice guy that approached me, there were 10 shady characters who were more persistent and aggressive.

    I go to grad school at a prestigious university. There are 4 women to every Black man in our program. There are good brothers, but they have better options than we have. Just because a brother got a degree doesn’t mean that he has charisma or is attractive. Many of the Black men (all non-Muslim) who go to the Business school (and I remember some of those in the Law school) act like they are God’s gift to women. I find their attitudes completely unattractive. But what makes them even more unappealing is that none of them are Muslim.

    Also, my ex was from a working class family that worked hard to put their kids through school. He went to Harvard Law and he didn’t have a problem pulling women. In fact, sisters fought over him and collaborated to be co-wives in hopes of snagging an Ivy league Muslim brotha. All of these women had degrees from prestigious schools and most of them married “good guys.”

    As for me, I love my African American brothas and support them in the struggle. I love my culture and heritage but I’ve never excluded other races and ethnicities. I grew up in a multi-cultural household, so I’m used to dealing with cultural clashes and blendings. Overall, my main criteria is that a man respects and understands me and my culture (and I likewise). It is also important that they understand how race operates in this society and how it affects all of us. And importantly, they can handle an adult relationship, have a strong sense of themselves, with the capability of leading me while respecting my consultation. But I’m not down with dealing with a racist family that hates me because I’m black. Marriage is not just about two people, who wants to be miserable because of some crazy in laws? So where does that leave me? With the crazy statistics? Allahu ‘Alim.

  46. Jasim, I like ADAMS, but for me I prefer Dar al Hijrah much more., and a couple of the things I really like is the diversity of the people who pray there and the fact you have people from varying viewpoints attending and getting along and there are lots of activities.

    When I talk about the high paying manual labor jobs in America I say this for a reason and this comes after talking to many brothers about this; in most Muslim countires the laborer is looked down upon and the worker is not given their dignity ( and of course in America and Europe we had the Labor Movement). I talk to young Muslims who tell em their families pressure them to be doctors or engineers when they really want to do something else that may be less prestigious and we will see how good they become in their forced professions.

    Jasim, our back and forth is pointless, you are defensive about any critique of the Muslim community or Muslim world and I am a critic.

  47. Margari,

    I thank you for your mature posting. It makes a lot of sense…but unfortunately there’s big gap in black relationships….and now we’re to the point where many black ladies accept men who underachieve. Please believe that these low-lifes would change it around if women didn’t give them the attention. You’ve even said yourself that out of every 1 good guy that appraoched you, you got 10 bad ones. You kinda lost me on the part where you said that not all the educated brothers are attractive etc. Is this to say that dating a low-life is acceptable cause he looks like he’s been working out in the jailhouse rec yard and is hung like a horse? It would be better to hook up with someone from another race than to be with one of these low-lifes. Shun the thugs and they won’t be thugs!

    There’s no excuse for a sister to date a low-life just like there’s no excuse for an educated man to deal with a hood rat chick.

    Bint Will,

    Your reply was nothing more than a knee-jerk emotional retort, which doesn’t add much to the conversation. Many black ladies will always bring up the “ain’t your mother a black woman?” counter argument. Our mothers have NOTHING to do with younger black women liking thugz and low-lifes.Personally, my mother and Grandma were upstanding women who loved REAL MEN, who obeyed the law and provided for thier families. Also, I see that many of you REFUSE to accept any blame for the failure of the black-relationships therefore blaming it all on the men. It’s a two way street. As you can see I’m more critical of underachieving black men than black women so please tell me where I’m degrading black women? All I’m saying is thatAfro-American sisters should stop opeining thier legs to and having children by low-lifes who will only bring them drama in the end. If they didn’t give it up to thugz then the thugs WOULDN’T BE THIS WAY. Yeah, I know the truth stings and you don’t want to hear it all. BTW: I’m from Maryland..so the PG country comparison is only one example of success and NOT the norm unfortunately. Unfortunatley the “hood” mentality is starting to invade some of these areas also.

    yeah, the black man in America is pretty messed up now. But AA sisters have accountability also in these problems and now is the time for us to indentify the problems to fix them. I do notice that many AA sisters can’t take ANY criticism at all whatsoever while dumping on black men. Like I said,it’s a 2way road.

    I will say it AGAIN: I encourage all men to marry foreign women who still have traditional values and haven’t been infected by the women’s entittlement(feminist movemment).

    Umar,

    Honestly akhi, it’s not my fault that black women are doing better than black men(which they are). I’m just saying that they need to stop the noise that “there ain’t no good black men”, “I don’t need a man etc.”

    There are still plenty of us that aren’t thugs and are professionals, or at least responsible. These guys shouldn’t be overlooked just because they’re not the majoirty of loosers. And these guys shouldn’t be abused by black women who were formally in bad realtionships and then can’t turn the anger off when she finally gets a good guy who will treat her like the queen she is.

  48. Why do so many AA women like to wave the banner – “Remember, your mother is black”. We know this. And them telling us this is not going to make us snap to some new reality for their benefit.

    And why is it “Remember, your mother is black”, and not “your mother and father are black”. What is that saying – the black man is insignificant and has no importance in the equation?

    It appears to black women, the feelings of the black women matter and not the feelings of the black man. What does that say about the fathers (men) – it says they don’t respect them – because the fathers where not a positive figure in their life anyway, so how can black men be?

    “Remember, your mother is black” is saying everything is centered around us – women – and your feelings and points of view as a man don’t matter – we are women, and what we do wrong does not matter because we are ‘black women’, like your mother – so you are obligated to deal with our crap on that basis, and that basis alone – because WE ARE BLACK LIKE YOUR MOTHERS!

    I say – so what.

    Act right to earn your love and respect. You won’t get it because my mother is black. She has nothing to do with you. My mother gives you no entitlement to me. And she is a much better woman then most of todays women, but a long way from perfect. And my father is black too. So what.

    Self love, self hate, not even a issue. I just want peace at the end of the day.

    If I come home to a woman who does not give me that peace, I do hate myself.

    Her being black does not enhance the quality of my life, peace does, and I am free to get it where I can find it. Black or otherwise. But yes, I prefer black. That is why I made this film – it is a message to black women to challenge their behavior and understand that most of the problems they have in life and relationships is due to their own bad behavior and bad choices.

    Women must take responsibility for their own actions, or we will die as a people.

    Please black women, change your point of view. We love you, and we need you – and we want you. But after years of abuse, we have grown – tired.

    Please come back to us and make it right so we can have love and strong families again like we did in the ’60. We need to both put down our weapons and step to each other with open palms.

    No, black men don’t go to marry white women because they are the standard of beauty – have you seen a white woman after she is 45-55-65! I think I’ll stop here you get the picture – NOT THE STANDARD OF BEAUTY.

    No it’s not because we are weak – we just don’t feel like fighting at home every night – there’s nothing to be gained by it. It also hurts the children who watch it.

    No it’s not the effect of Willie Lynch and Slavery – we have been ‘freed’ a long time now. When we were slaves, we were not allow to learn to read and write – we couldn’t even spell our own names for God’s sake! Now that Willie Lynch and Slavery no longer stop us from getting an education, why do we allow ourselves to use it as an excuse to not respect each other and be fair. We know better. This is 2007, no one alive in America knows any slaves, and haven’t for more then 3 generations. So let’s get past the excuses, and take full responsibility for our own actions.

    The reason men are crossing the color line – is peace.

    If you give it to us, we won’t cross. Your choice.

  49. The above statement is an excerpt…I agree with.

    My intent on here isn’t to degrade anybody, especially AA women. All of us have our issues that need to be worked on.

    To stay on topic though:

    I get along much better with the Arabs than the desis. It appears that many(not all) of the desis only care about desis. The Arabs are usually a bit more light-hearted and open to other’s experieces that vary from thier own.

    It has been very interesting reading about the experiences of white muslims on this site as I don’t see many of them here in my area.

    Concerning death threats against Umar, I would say that these idiots are COWARDS and arm-chair Jihadists that probably can’t do anything at all. Many of them are haters because a white guy has the guts to post criticsms of things happening in the muslim world and society in general.

  50. If you’re not a nativist, then why use their arguments, DA? No need for selective memory loss. Didn’t ask you to carry water on anybody’s behalf either. I didn’t call you a zionist, redneck or a pro-regressive here recently, so don’t slag off old arguments from years back which turned sour only after you started cursing me out. Think about that before complaining about ad-hominem attacks.
    As for omarg’s usual carping, its the same old act. Its amazing how low this racist munafiq will go to make the blood of innocent Muslim men, woman and children in Iraq halal and then claim that “immigrant” Muslims wont treat an “indigenous”(a preposterous term unless you’re a native American Muslim) Muslims like him right.
    Umar is correct that plumbers make more then doctors and engineers in the US. What is also true is that many are crooks who would not make $160 to unclog a drain in other countries, Muslim or otherwise. Jasim has made excellent points which Umar wont accept because they don’t mesh with his limited world view. Sorry bud, but having a big list of diverse friends doesn’t validate your blanket statement about entire countries being “failed states.” Muslims, immigrant or otherwise who live in America have a right to critique what we see as unjust and wrong, whether its trailer trash talk radio or the criminals in the White House, and don’t need ol’ man Chomsky for guidance.

  51. Yahya

    Perhaps you didn’t intend to degrade, but you certainly insulted us. Do you know what it’s like being a black woman?! It’s hell. We are tired too.

    I don’t know what hood life is like, but thought it was good because I used to love watching Good Times, but spending time on various black message boards I’ve hearing of the horrors many black women endure – raped as little girls; absentee fathers… As black person I get tired of folks assuming i’m from the projects, as a black woman I get tired of folks assuming I’ll spread my legs for anything, and acting shock because none of my children were born out of wedlock, neither were I or my parents. As a black person I get tired of folks assuming I’m educated or they can get over on me. Point is although there is some truth in stereotyping on size doesn’t fit all. You are black man, you should know this better than I, as a woman I am certainly less of a threat than you to society.

    I never had to deal with cat calls because I’ve always dressed modestly and carried myself in a respectable manner, but I have had a man touch my ass because he wanted to know what I was hiding, he also told me he love black women because they are hot – this punk is supposed to be a Muslim man. He felt this bold because our black men, who have no respect for us have left the door open for others to disrespect us. If our men don’t respect us, who will? I’ve had a Yemeni (he’s fair skinned) brother tell me black women love him because he has a big dick – again he felt bold because our brothers don’t respect us. We are not asking ya’ll to marry us, but respect us, even those who do not deserve it or respect themselves. What are you doing to ensure our younger brothers will not go down the wrong path?

    The tired black man video is trite…I understand where the AFRICAN brother is coming from, but he’s to blame as well – he should have made a better choice and he shouldn’t have brought the woman, regardless of her color to the sister’s house. Out of respect for my current husband, my ex husband doesn’t come to my home. Then again I don’t care much for MOST African people because they have too many self hatred issues — trying to distance themselves from blacks. It burns my nerves to hear the purplish blacks Somalis say, “Those AFrican people,” unless Somalia has someone broken away from Africa ….

  52. Bint Will

    Amazingly………I agree with the things that you have said above. Many black foreigners who come to the USA to take advantage of the opportunities created by black-Americans who fought in the civil rights movement, actually think that they are better than us(native born black Americans) because they come from places where black culture is dominant amongst many other things. They have nothing to say when I REMIND THEM that if it were not for my father and grandfather mraching and fighting then they would be able to have the success that they are able to attain here in the USA.

    As Black -Americans we are a scarred people and many foreign blacks, and foreign born muslims do not understand this. Despite the struggles and pains of black-Americans, and despite the racism that still exists…it is still no excuse for the underachievment and lack of goals that exist in the AA community. AA women go through many things just as decent AA males go through many things as well. I am aware and sensitive to this. As far us educated black folks being subjected to other assuming negative sterortypes about us, one would think that this would bring those successful AA men and AA women together, but we are growing further apart. I COME from the poor inner city areas, so therefore my views are probably biased and skewered by this fact.

    I find it disturbing that muslim brothers from other places feel that they can step to AA women in any kind of vulgar manner(referring to the Yemeni guy incident). It’s amazing because AA brothers wouldn’t dare to step to a Yemeni or other Arab/foreign muslim woman in that manner.

    we have much healing to do :(

  53. Yahya

    You’re exactly why I refused to marry an African American. Thank you Yal-Aziz for being so merciful.

  54. MotherOfAminata

    YOU are ignorant. No African-American probably wanted you….and whoever you’re married to now probably only needs marriage long enough for the greencard.

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