“Open Up Your Abaya and Let Me See What You Got Girl”

When I was in my pre-teen and young teenager I attended an Evangelical Baptist Church that had a very large youth group of maybe something like 300 kids. Amongst those kids some were very devout and into Christianity and studied the Bible in their free time or other religious books and a few even planned to enter the ministry. Many more, however, were like me in that they didn’t really want to be at the church and were basically there to pacify our families.


Of the kids who didn’t like to be at church on a weekday night when they could be hanging out with friends they often found other activities at church to entertain themselves other than reading the Bible or sitting through classes and more often than not this dealt with boys and girls. The youth minister would give staunch warnings against listening to secular music and pre-marital sex and we had a lot of kids who would be outside listening to their walkmans or finding places in the large church or in the parking lot to fool around.


There was one time when I saw a teenage girl performing oral sex on a boy in the parking lot, another time a couple were caught having sex at a church outing, and a few cases of youth group members ending up pregnant by other members. Others who were more devout but mischievous at the same time vowed to not have sex before they were married but would perform lesser sexual acts upon another. Both of these things are far from the ideas that the parents had when they sent them to church.


When I became Muslim I naively thought that was something that did not occur in the Muslim community and especially not amongst our youth and of course I was wrong. Even in the Muslim World, in places such as Egypt, there is a phenomenon of young people having anal and oral sex while they are single so that they remain virgins until they get married.


Today in the American-Muslim community we have youth groups at most of the large Masjids, weekend activities for the kids, Muslim schools, and the like. Just as the case with the church I was in a lot of the kids want to be there, and our devout in their religion, and there are a lot of other kids who do not want to be there and are dragged there by their parents and there is no place on earth they would rather be less than the Masjid.


So what do these kids do when they get to the Masjid? Do these kids who don’t even want to be there say, “heck, since I am already here I might as well memorize a few hadith and an ayah or two while I’m at it”? No, many behave as the kids in the church group did.


There is a prominent Masjid out there, which has one of the most active youth groups in the country, which currently has a scandal involving a young African-American boy and several Arab girls. For whatever reason, maybe they watch 106th and Park all day at home before coming to the Masjid and are dying to have a back guy and cant find one anywhere else, all of the girls at the Masjid have went crazy over this one guy.

So he has been fooling around with them in secluded parts of the Masjid on a regular basis and it has just now come to light. For him it is simple, he is a young boy with hormones raging and he will do as much as he will be allowed to but for the girls it is a little more complicated. Why would all of these girls want to share the same boy, why are they so unsophisticated as to just let him haul them off to different parts of the building and do what he has to do?


The case that apparently got this kid busted was when he let his little Arab friend, who had about as much chance of getting some or seeing some as he did going to Mars, hide in the closet and watch him tell an Arab girl “Open Up Your Abaya and Let Me See What You Got Girl” and she dutifully complied. Incidentally, this is the same Masjid where one of the girls was videoed having sex in the public school bathroom which caused a minor scandal in the community.



In this I am reminded of girls who are protected and sheltered by their parents, and there is a benefit to what the parents do in this regard, but there is also a drawback. The drawback is that when the girls do fool around they do not know the rules to the game and so they are often taken advantage of. I saw this when I was a teenager when you would have girls from good families come around the way and get passed around like generic cigarettes and let guys do all kinds of crazy stuff and they didn’t know any better and thought this was how it was done. The girl who was street-wise, and who knew the game, messed around but she had a level of sophistication to the game and the power of manipulation.


What is my point? There are a few I guess; but one is this, we are not immune from any of the other problems and behaviors in society, that is a fact


110 thoughts on ““Open Up Your Abaya and Let Me See What You Got Girl”

  1. What about good strong moral upbringing. Boys should keep away from girls and girls should keep away from boys. This is especially important when their hormones are all over the place.

    Why is their a co-ed adolescent youth program? Inane or what?!?!

    Good children do not do these activities because of fear of parents but fear of gods displeasure. They know what is right and wrong.

    Sign of our times I guess.

  2. Of course we aren’t immune and sometimes our children are worse than the nonMuslims.

    About two Ramadan’s ago I had to literally go into the men’s room and get a little Yemeni girl out of the bathroom. SHe was in there with THREE – yes, 3, boys. She and her sister move with more swivel in their hips than I (or Mae West) ever could . Everytime I said something to the father, he’d brushed me off with the standard, “Not my daughter…” SIGH Fortunately one time I was able to grab him and let him witness these things for himself.

    Sadly, some of our little sisters have very bad reputations and are often “coerced” into going all the way via “blackmail.” Last year during the ISNA conference in DC, Imam Johari (if I remember correctly) addressed this situation during a domestic violence breakout session.

    I know a few sisters who have grandchildren because they allowed their girls to visit their friends, FORGETTING these friends have brothers. I am not saying they can’t visit the friends, but ensure mom and dad are home during the visits.

    Children need adequate adult supervision and productive after school activities. I’ve proposed several times, that we start structured (not the typical drop your child off at the masjid and disappear) afterschool/weekend/summer programs. As you’ve clearly pointed out a lack of (or very little) adult supervision + raging hormones + x amount of hours of free = TROUBLE TROUBLE TROUBLE. Many of the masjids have a lot of space, all should be offering before and after school care. Churches do it all the time, some charge fees others are in a position to do it for free.

    We also need something similar to the Big Brother/BIg Sister Program.

  3. Signs of our times – You said, “Good children do not do these activities because of fear of parents but fear of gods displeasure. They know what is right and wrong.”

    Yes, they know right from wrong, but if they lack self-esteem (as many children do) they will fall victim to peer pressure.

    When we talk about youth and young adults issues, one thing we often fail to address is the issue of self-esteem. As mentioned on another forum…

    “If we thought more highly of ourselves, we would do better in school and in the workplace. We would respect ourselves, and therefore be able to respect others, avoiding a lot of marital problems, and violence. We would take better care of our health, and not abuse alcohol and drugs. Our youth would avoid teen pregnancy and gangs. This is short and simplistic, but the fallout from low self-esteem is HUGE. “

  4. Signs of Our Times

    Good children do not do these activities because of fear of parents but fear of gods displeasure. They know what is right and wrong.

    I’m sorry but i have to disagree with what you just said right there.

    Why do you people see sex as such a bad thing? Teenagers have always had sex, because evolution has bestowed upon us the urge to reproduce. As a result sexual activities are pleasurable, relaxing and can help strengthen the bond between a man and a woman (even if they aren’t married).

    What is it about sex you think God is displeased about? The pleasure? The bond that two people strengthen by sharing and providing pleasure for each other? Is God somehow opposed to people fulfilling the natural desires and urges that evolution has provided us?

    The key is simply education. Unsafe and promiscuous sex is dangerous. Girls shouldn’t trust themselves to any guy that walks by and guys shouldn’t be hunting ass all the time with no regard for the woman’s self respect, but that can be taught to kids. teach them about STDs and pregnancy, but don’t scare them with the threat of eternal hellfire for doing what is natural, fun, relaxing and in many ways healing. In the proper context (and I’m not saying marriage – love and marriage are 2 very, very different things) sex is an act of trust building for the woman and an opportunity for the man to express his love by providing pleasure for his partner.

    When you say god is displeased with sex, it makes me think that you may have been sexual repressed through religious ideology. Sex is not dirty, or unnatural or evil – it is safe and normal if you properly educate children. The repression of healthy sexual desire is unhealthy and damaging, and in my opinion one of the worst things organized religion has ever done to man kind.

    Teach kids how to practice safe sex and talk to them about love but don’t tell them they should repress natural, healthy desires or they’ll burn in hell, or God the tormentor will be displeased with them. That’s a scare tactic and to me it’s disgusting. Using fear to manipulate your children is wrong.

    Behaving a certain way because you’re afraid of God being pissed off with you otherwise doesn’t make you a good kid, if anything it makes you religious. Nothing more.

    And, suggesting that boys and girls should be separate is silly. They need to learn how to engage girls as human beings while they’re young. They need to learn that sex isn’t the only way to interact with a woman.

  5. “Don’t get pregnant.” In the final analysis… it all comes down to that.

    “Don’t get a disease.”
    “Don’t get your heart broken.”
    “Don’t break someone else’s heart.”

    In decending order… that’s what we need to get across to our daughters, nieces, granddaughters, and other young girls we have a “paternal” interest in. Same with the boys… except obviously the message is tailored to “don’t get a girl pregnant,” etc.

    The forces of secular society – not to mention human biology – are against us. (*SMILE*) We can only “control” so much and so far. And lets face it… that “little angel” in our eyes – and our sight – can well be (and probably is, at least on occasion) hell on wheels.

    As parents… most of us no doubt look upon our own experiences as youths and… if we have teenaged children… try our best to resist both homocidal AND (*GRIN*) suicidal urges. “Been there, done that” pretty much covers it. We know how the “game” is played and we know our limitations. That said…

    RIGHT vs. WRONG. That’s what it’s all about. Our kid see so much that is wrong… we need to tell them what’s right.

    Easier said than done, right? Easy rhetoric… but what about in practice? Like I said above… tell the kids what to avoid and WHY they need to avoid it. Will it work? All too often… no. But we’ve gotta try.

    One concrete bit of advice… full court press. The father has to tell the kid. The mother has to tell the kid. The uncle… the aunt… the godfather… the godmother… the parent’s best friends… the grandparents… the kid’s whole adult universe has to be a constant reinforcement of VALUES and common sense counsel.

    Anyway… I’m not writing anything everyone else here at Umar’s blog doesn’t already know. One last concrete piece of advice to parents:

    Tell that boy… your son or your daughter’s boyfriend… in no uncertain terms that “breaking the rules” might result in you BREAKING HIS FRIGG’N NECK.

    (*GRIN*) Yeah… aside from going for the chuckle, I’m being serious. Neither our generation nor our parent’s generation discovered sex. Kids have “fooled around” and kids have FALLEN IN LOVE since man became man. (*SMILE*) But back in the “good old days”… there were consequences for “accidents.” And boys knew it! The phrase “shotgun wedding” didn’t come out of thin air. (*SMILE*) If you’re the father of a girl who seems to be in a “serious” relationship with a boy… (that little son of a …)… make sure “the boyfriend” is scared to frigg’n death of getting YOUR daughter pregnant.

    Hey… it’s not fair… takes two to tangle and all that… but fear of some crazy dad “taking you out” in the middle of the night and burying your dead ass upstate Soprano style has a better shot of cooling a young man’s ardor than making him feel that his girlfriend’s dad is… a nice guy… a potential “friend” should “precautions” fail.

    Anyway… my two cents worth.


  6. In Egypt, I heard stories about girls losing their virginity on the Gazeera Club golf course. When I mentioned this to my Arabic teacher, he denied the possibility of such an act, assuring me that only animals would do such things. This is also the attitude of older Egyptians, who think it’s “not part of our culture” to have premarital sex. It’s something only those dirty Westerners do.

    Egypt is getting more like the West in this regard. From what I hear, so is Saudi, and probably many other Muslim countries.

    Still, America is more permissive, and when kids grow up here whose parents have the old world mentality mentioned above, it is a recipe for disaster.

    Insha’Allah, when my kids get older, I’m going to tell them to hold out through high school and we’ll try to get them married by 18 or 19. On that note, a major priority of Muslim communities needs to be making marriage easier. That includes financial support, reasonable family planning (especially for sisters in college), accepting pre-med husbands instead of MDs, etc. Boys and girls feeling the pressure need to know that the halal option is within reach.

  7. Musa Maguire

    Egypt is getting more like the West in this regard. From what I hear, so is Saudi, and probably many other Muslim countries.

    This statement is disingenuous because it assumes that in Egypt and the other Arab nations premarital sex wasn’t happening. I don’t believe that. I think that much like the US in the 50’s people were ashamed of it because of religious indoctrination and prevailing social attitudes, so they chose to keep it secret.

    Having sex is natural – people have always done it and people always will. Homosexuality, affairs, and premarital sex are things humans do, all over the world, and always have. Whether or not these things are discussed openly in a society has to do with religious beliefs/prevailing social attitudes.

    I’d like to ask something as well, why do you want your kid to get married at 18 or 19? Don’t you think that by 25 through growth your child will change? The opinions, interests and connection the child may feel toward that person could change, as they develop their own individual identity.

    Why not wait until they’ve had a chance to mature a little past 18, 19 before getting married? If sex is the issue what makes it better if they are married, and if marriage is the issue what makes you think 2 people compatible at 19 will be compatible at 25, 30, 40, 50, etc?

  8. True indeed William, some of our parents had an old fashioned American shotgun wedding.

    How would we know if your girls are in “serious” relationships being many have modern day luxuries – cell phones and computers w/internet access in their rooms. Long gone are the days when we had to explain why some boy or hot tail girl was calling the house.

    Girls are different these days. My oldest son is 11, some girl called him 1 AM asking him to be her boyfriend. At 11 boys were the furthest from my mind

    Musa, the Middle is where America was a few decade ago. Some of parents and grandparents had shotgun weddings and some of our grandmothers were “out there.” I’m in my early 30s, during high school (1980s) it was shameful for a girl to be known as loose and easy. TOday, the scenario has changed.

    I vividly recall my brothers tell my sister and me to keep away from so and so because she’s “easy.” Today, I hear girls speak openly about their sexcapades. Truth be told, girls are different as in more aggressive and have the attitude if boys can do it, so can we.

    I married young (19 virgin and christian), so unfortunatley I can’t get on board the marry young train, though I understand where you’re coming from. Speaking for myself, I lost (sacrificed) so much of my life, including putting on hold goals I had for myself. Sex is only a small, yet significant part of marriage. Frankly I have more to offer a man, and so does my daughter, than what’s between my legs.

    If our children had constructive things to do with their time, they’d be able to hold out. Look at our muslim communities, very few activities for the youth… practically NONE for the girls. Let’s engage them instead of stressing to our girls all they are good for is laying on their back and spreading them

  9. That wasn’t my intent, sister, but I know how I was at 15, make that 13, and 17. Things today are much worse. I honestly don’t know how these young Muslim boys survive high school or college. And of course the girls face the same pressure.

    We need to be comprehensively creative about this issue, finding ways marriage can work without sacrificing goals…and I recognize that sisters often lose out in this regard.

  10. Assalamu Alaikum
    Promiscuity is not a new phenomenon. But there are ways to raise children in Islam and keep them safe from harm and from haram. We parents must make this our absolute top priority. Living in denial is too too dangerous. (It doesn’t happen here, my girl would never…etc.)

    Musa Maguire—from Huda TV? We love that station here in Jordan. You once answered a question of mine on air with Sheikh M. Saleh. Keep up the good work, may Allah reward you.

  11. BoozePenguin,

    Sure, sex is natural, and premarital sex, etc. always happened.

    However, there are still more social controls in Egypt, and these were even greater in the past. What is normal here is still scandalous there. It’s not just a matter of what is discussed.

    The issue now is that the whole lifestyle is changing–kids are hanging out at the mall, having boyfriends/girlfriends, watching Arab booty-shake videos, looking at porn in internet cafes, etc.

    If my kids can wait past 18 or 19, fine. But people used to get married younger, and that was when marriages were more likely to stay together (though I’m not making any direct claim of causality on such a complex issue).

  12. Musa Maguire

    Sure, but just because a marriage last longer doesn’t make it better for the people involved. Many women stay in marriages their entire lives because their husband is a tyrant and they’re afraid to leave. While these marriages might last longer that doesn’t make them any better. I think the idea of that the quality of a marriage depends on how long it lasts to be a myth (except where children are involved, but i don’t think a 19 year old is ready for marriage or child rearing).

    The issue now is that the whole lifestyle is changing–kids are hanging out at the mall, having boyfriends/girlfriends, watching Arab booty-shake videos, looking at porn in internet cafes, etc.

    This i have to agree with. I find the hyper-sexualisation of women in western society to be disgusting. Especially since it instilled intense feelings of inadequacy and self-hate in beautiful women who should be confident, proud and self-respecting. I don’t however see having boyfriends/girlfriends young is a problem in and of itself.

    My only point is that early marriage isn’t the answer to this – i maintain that educating children is the key. Telling your children, when they see photoshopped girls on magazine covers in the grocery store – this is sick, this is wrong, this degrades women, etc.

    I’m just saying that it is in fact possible for kids to have healthy sexual relationships if they are properly educated. A child should refrain from promiscuous sex because they respect themselves, not because they fear god. I’m just saying that the attitude that all premarital sex is somehow wrong while all sex within a marriage is good is a false one. If you teach your child properly they should know about the difference between healthy sexual relationships and unhealthy relationships.

    But having a girlfriend and having sex with her isn’t itself a problem. It can be a wonderful thing. I think that when we see sex as a dirty act (many people do, it’s been drummed into their heads since they were kids) we devalue something that can, in the right context, be wonderful for both people involved.

    I’ve noticed that many religious people view having sex as something god would be angry at them for. They devalue something that is beautiful and natural and turn it into a sin in all cases expect where the parties are not married. That really, really bothers me.

  13. oh crap.


    “They devalue something that is beautiful and natural and turn it into a sin in all cases expect where the parties are not married”

    should read:

    “They devalue something that is beautiful and natural and turn it into a sin in all cases expect where the parties are married”

  14. Here’s what I’m going to tell my kids about sex (irrespective of gender):

    Promiscuity is dangerous.

    If you’re in a committed relationship, sex gets better – more fun, with less inhibitions. Intimacy is sexy. If you *know* your partner, you are less awkward and more in control.

    Condoms are your best friend – but don’t think you can rely on them for everything. A condom won’t magically validate a sexual experience.

    Virginity does not protect you from mistakes either. Virginity is hard to define – it is not, in of itself, a virtue, but rather a state of being. Nevertheless, it is nothing to be ashamed of. Never, ever get in bed with someone “just to get it over with.”

    Love is hard to define – but you know it when you feel it. Don’t ever think that getting in bed with someone will make them love you, or make you love them, or anything of the sort. Love is angelic. Sex is a little bit more mundane.

    If you don’t love someone – don’t sleep with them. Just don’t. And don’t fool around with them either. Yuck.

    ALWAYS have someone to confide in – if someone behaves inappropriately toward you, if you are scared and uncomfortable, if you feel pressured, etc. And don’t confide in just anyone – find someone you trust and respect.

    God gave you one life, and one body – and the ultimately responsibility is YOURS (I think that’s crucial, because, too many times, restrictions are placed on children without highlighting their own responsibility for their actions).

    I can only hope they’ll listen.

    I personally think that my parents mistake was screaming at me about these issues, instead of having a dialogue. It didn’t help. I don’t think it ever does.

  15. ***Sure, but just because a marriage last longer doesn’t make it better for the people involved. Many women stay in marriages their entire lives because their husband is a tyrant and they’re afraid to leave.***

    Unfortunately, you are right. A lot of my friends from back home married young. A small percentage of them are actually happy.

    Hell, someone very close to me married her high school sweetheart. He beat the shit out of her. And it was her mother-in-law (of all people!) who finally had to say, “Honey, our son has turned into a monster. We make no excuses for him. If you leave him, we won’t think any less of you.”

    Divorce carries a huge stigma in certain parts of the world. It was certainly no different in this person’s circle. Thank God she left, though.

    I wouldn’t necessarily chalk it up to marriage though – I just think that life is difficult whether you marry sooner or later. There are no guarantees, and abuse is very pervasive. It’s pervasive in metropolitan enclaves, and large, “traditional” families alike. It’s something that’s very hard to escape. That’s the reality. It’s scary, but there you go.

  16. BoozePenguin,
    I was not always Muslim, so I know where you’re coming from. But as a Muslim, I accept a standard of “lawfulness” for sex. That said, marriage is Islam can be very simple and does not require all the pomp that we generally attach to it. And no one can really say that Muslims have a negative view of sex.

  17. Musa Maguire

    I was more referring to religious people in general. I understand that there’s a wide range of individual opinions within the religious communities regardless of what the actual religion is.

    I’ve met plenty of people within the jewish, christian and muslim community who honestly believe sex is dirty. I feel so sad for these people, because they are missing out on what i view to be a healthy normal part of growing up.

    To be honest i think people relax, and seem more centered when they have a healthy outlet for their natural sexual desires. I’ve also noticed the sense of worthlessness that comes to women who are promiscuous, as much as they glorify it outwardly deep down inside they know they are being used and usually believe they deserve it. At least, that’s been my purely subjective experience. I see education to be the only real defense against dangerous sexual behavior. Threats never really work.

  18. Natalia Antonova

    Sure, but by having relationships young before marriage you get an opportunity to learn about the opposite sex. People who have experience with relationships prior to marriage have an easier time of identifying what they want in a partner.

    I also think that at 19 most people don’t really know what they want in a partner for the rest of their life. At 19 you still have so much to learn about yourself, the opposite sex, and what a healthy relationship really is.

    People should have time to learn through trial and error, without the social stigma to stay in a marriage that may not be right for either person.

  19. Booze, (you can just call me Natalia, btw ;) )

    I think different things work for different people. I am personally one of those individuals who would *never* marry someone I barely knew (especially if that someone was recommended by my parents – ai caramba!).

    The last time I was in Moscow, several women actively *pushed* me to at least take an interest in their sons. I was 17 at the time, and completely shocked. I traveled to a village to visit friends – and arrived in the middle of wedding festivities. The bride was 18. All the elders were clucking their tongues and telling me that they hoped that I could be like her in a year or so. But I didn’t want to her! The entire experience was patronizing and insulting. Psychologically, I knew I wasn’t suited for something like early marriage. And the people who chose not to respect that – well, it was their problem, not mine.

    Nevertheless, I’ve seen people who make it work. My grandparents married young – and they never fought, never cheated, never abused each other. They had a wonderful relationship, and my grandmother’s heart was broken when my grandfather passed away. My grandmother was also completely economically independent, something that was possible in the USSR, and is much less frequent now.

  20. Musa,

    I read a pamphlet from Warith Deen (not sure of the spelling) about young marriages. It was suggested we help our children, as you’ve mentioned, via allowing them to continue living in our homes after marriage as it makes it easier for the young couple to continue their education and release themselves in a respectable manner. Isn’t this similar to the Misyar (sp) marriages which are occuring in Saudi?

    I am not certain about the islamic stance on birth control – I am anti-birth control because of the harm it does to a woman’s body, HOWEVER I would push for men getting vasectomies (they cause a lot of damage, but hey I’m bias here, and can be reversed whent he couple is mentally ready for children. One can never be 100 percent financially ready as children are expensive.)

    Do you believe if we provide constructive activities for our children, the problem will be controlled?

    Is there something in the Quran stating that girls are not allowed to participate in sports and other fun activities?

  21. I believe constructive activities will help control the problem, but barriers to marriage are often too high. I remember talking to a brother at the University of Texas who was getting ready to graduate and attend medical school. He didn’t expect to get married until after his residency, at around age 30,31. This seems tortuous to me. In Egypt, the marriage system is so out of balance (for men and women) that many never get married, or have to wait until their late 30s+.

    I have no problem with girls participating in fun activities or sports. I have no problem with girls pursuing education to whatever level they wish. My comments address boys and girls.

    Vasectomies? For real?

    I’m not sure what Misyar marriages are. Is that like the ‘urfi marriage? There is no single answer to this…but the general trend of young people waiting longer for marriage while facing more and more “stimulation” is troubling.

  22. Bint Will

    Vasectomies are not always reversible, nor do they always work. As well there have been big advances in terms of safety for birth control pills. The doses are now much, much smaller so the large dose pills that were causing strokes, blood clots etc are all off the market. Today birth control pills are much safer then they were even 5 years ago, so long as you don’t smoke.

  23. I don’t know any Muslims who think sex is “dirty,”(as boozedpengo claims, while playing doctor) just outside of marriage. This is a classic red herring from those who are all for unfettered and unrestricted sex(for obvious reasons), while ignoring the social and psychological consequences. What I and many others are sick of is the obsessive sexualization of everything from inanimate objects to livestock. People who control themselves in such an environment ought to be appalauded, not ridiculed. Its a failure on the part of the parents if their kids are involved such actvities.

  24. Natalia Antonova
    “Kids will be kids.”

    Anal sex? Orgy?

    These are not kids being kids these are children whose future is stolen. They will grow up to be damaged and damaging to others.

    If I may add a few related articles and links:

    Read the articles very sad and sobering. They are dated articles but very much relevant.

    These things did not happen 30 years ago, anyone who says this is not in touch with reality. Statistics like teen-pregnancies would suggest otherwise. Even when I was in my teens women and men where not so actively sexual. These days you get twelve year olds who know what an oral job is, what anal sex is and all other stuff that never came into my vocabulary until much later in life. And I was not an oddity.

    Today it is an oddity if you do not have sex. Social norms have change and it is not for the betterment of society.

    “When you say god is displeased with sex, it makes me think that you may have been sexual repressed through religious ideology.”

    I never said sex was dirty, sex is something to enjoy but it all depends on how it is done. No one is trying to teach kids scare tactics into not having sex, it is wait until you get married and do not fall into sin.

    You say sex is for fun but I bet you also have moral standing; for example what would you think if one partner in a relationship decides to have sex outside of it?

    We just have different morals that you may not agree with but that is life.

    “And, suggesting that boys and girls should be separate is silly. They need to learn how to engage girls as human beings while they’re young. They need to learn that sex isn’t the only way to interact with a woman.”

    I did not say that boys and girls should have separate lives, all I said is they should not have co-ed outings in Masjids where they are without supervision. What I mean in keep away is they should not act flirtatiously, and when they do interact it should be for a purpose other than just fun.

    There are uncles, aunts, sisters, brothers and many other ways in which the genders interact with each other in a manner that Islam deems right. Co-ed education is not the only way.

    Also your idea of engagement does not work. There are many boys who grew up to be men that do not know how to engage with women. Because they are not handsome, or witty or particularly smart, or sporty… they are just average and are unable to get the girls attention and thus start to lack self-esteem. It is usually the ballsy or the bad guys that get the girls, their mannerism makes them attractive.

    One other thing, love is a verb and not just an emotion. For any marriage to succeed you have to work at it and you have to have the right positive mentality otherwise you have failed before you have began.

  25. Bint Will
    “I am not certain about the islamic stance on birth control – I am anti-birth control because of the harm it does to a woman’s body, HOWEVER I would push for men getting vasectomies (they cause a lot of damage, but hey I’m bias here, and can be reversed whent he couple is mentally ready for children. One can never be 100 percent financially ready as children are expensive.)”

    Vasectomies does alter you body in manner god not intended. Most scholars say it is harm unless medical reasons. Also note that reversal is not guaranteed.

    Lol I just got your name. Bint as in daughter?

  26. Islam is not like Catholicism, The Prophet ( pbuh) talked about sex a lot and encouraged foreplay, the Quran has a verse about doing it doggy-stlye. So, sex is not a bad thing, it is a great thing, but as humans with souls we should have restrictions on our behavior and have a higher value than ” if it feels good do it”.

    The loosening of restraints on sex and the elimination of taboos have had negative consequences on individuals and families in the West and yes have led to AIDS which is almost a 100% curable disease which many liberals would rather see the African continent perish from than admit that old school sexual morality would do the trick.


    You’re right, Bint Will. In the age of ubiquitous communication and mobility… how does one truly know what a child is doing and with whom? Of course even in the “good old days” kids could fairly easily sneak around… but nowadays it’s so much easier and more the norm for teenagers to be given “their space” in the “adult” sense of the term.

    My “kid” is 19 – turning 20 this month. She’s in her junior year of college and all I can tell you in an open forum like this is that while by many standards she’s a great kid… my “ideals” concerning what parents can do and should do and what “properly” brought up kids shouldn’t do… well… let’s just say the “ideal” didn’t survive reality.

    So… my admitted LACK of omniscience – let alone omnipotence – readily acknowledged, I still offer the following advice – for what it’s worth:

    1) Cell phone AREN’T a necessity – no matter WHAT “society” seems to believe. They’re a tool – nothing more. Same with the email and even the internet. And when it comes to kids… parents need to not only “monitor,” but ultimately control – as best they can – their kid’s access and usage of communication tools.

    No… I’m not saying parents have to be either Luddites or the Secret Police. I’m simply saying that ultimately parents need to decide the parameters of cell phone and computer usage.

    The FIRST time a girl called my 11-year-old son at 1:00 a.m. – either on “his” cell phone or our land line – would be the LAST time this girl or any other girl or boy EVER called my son at our home after 9:00 p.m. on a school night or 10:00 p.m. on a weekend. And believe me… while I might give my kid one “pass” in terms of letting him take care of that girl and FUTURE friend’s calls… my rules are “two strikes and you’re out.” If that girl ever broke *my* rule again… the next call made would be from me to her parents.

    Cell phones in general? If you’re going to let your kid have a cell phone… and it’s not YOUR idea for him or her to have it for whatever reason… two points: First… the kid pays for the phone himself/herself. Second… even if it’s the kid’s own money… the call/texting history is YOUR business as a parent and open access by YOU of those records needs to be a given. Period.

    Computers… both the Internet and Email… same thing regarding your unbridled right and RESPONSIBILITY as a parent to monitor usage. I’m not talking “spying.” I’m talking a straight declaration of rules to your kid that there is no absolute “right to privacy” or “First Amendment” in YOUR home. If there are emails or web surfs your kid would be mortified to have you find out about… then these emails and/or web surfs shouldn’t be taking place in the first place.

    As to where your kids are and whom they’re with… it’s not necessary to hire a private investigator (*GRIN*) or hide a bug in the heel of your kid’s shoe… (*SMILE*)… just keep up on the basics MOST of the time and check that they’re where they’ve told you they’re gonna be with whom every once in awhile randomly. Again… a little FEAR of GETTING CAUGHT doing what they’re not supposed to be doing is a GOOD thing for a kid to have.

    On to the other topic (marrying young) discussed by you and Musa with input by BoozePenguin… I’m with you and Booze! (BTW… I’m a scotch man myself!) (*GRIN*)

    Seriously… Musa… I see where you’re coming from… and it makes sense in a traditional society. Here in American though… while it CAN work out… chances are marrying young isn’t in the best interests of most young people. There are so many opportunities here in America… social, educational, professional… that I believe the average 16-25 year old really needs to “experience” LIFE without the ties of spouse and/or children before embarking upon the heavy responsibilities of marriage and child rearing.

    And you know what… while in a perfect world we’d all wait patiently till marriage to have sex… the real “battle” – in viable terms I’d say – in terms of “needing” to WIN is to do our damnest as parents and adults to dissuade our children and youth in general from having intercourse until BARE MINIMUM senior year of high school.

    BELIEVE me… I know this sounds like I’m capitulating and perhaps contradicting my earlier statements… but I’m being VERY specific here – or at least TRYING to be.

    While abstinance until marriage is the GOAL… and while I’m in no way saying it’s “ok” for high school seniors to have sex… in the “real world” I’d say the kids at MOST EXTREME RISK of their futures are those kids having sex PRIOR to at a BARE MINIMUM their senior year of high school.

    Listen… kids are stupid and irresponsible enough DURING their senior year of high school and THROUGHOUT their college years and/or early years in the work force. All I’m saying is that PRIOR to this… if a kid is ALREADY sexually active beyond “making out” and some “heavy petting” PRIOR to this point… chances are it’s already too late for the kid to embark upon the “right road.” (Not impossible… but harder.)

    Bottom line though… sex before senior year… sex before college graduation… sex before marriage… the “second best outcome” we as parents can strive for if our kids are going to have sex before marriage is to beat home to them the fear of pregnancy… fear of disease…. fear of getting hurt or hurting others… and all the other lesser negatives of being sexually active prior to marriage.


  28. What is important is to let these children know that their feelings are NORMAL. Children cannot be made to feel ashamed of their raging hormones and the bodies that want to do whatever those hromones dictate. And to also let them know that if they ever mess up, that there is such a thing as redemption in Islam. Growing up as a “Catholic School girl”, I can see many parallels between the two faiths as far as the whole denial/hiding/shame thing goes and it is extremely unhealthy.

  29. Laa hawla wa laa quwwata illaa billaah.

    I can’t think of anything else to say… this is scary. Very, very scary.

    *Just thought of something to say*

    1. Parents need to watch their kids – but before they should even need watching, the parents need to instill strong values into the kids so that they can at least put up resistance to the fitnah that’s going on around them.

    2. We kids need a strong base, a strong foundation, to remind us about what’s WRONG and totally unacceptable to do. Wordly warnings (of pregnancy, disease, etc.) are good – but I think we need to learn to fear ALLAH first. So that one of us might be tempted into zina, not fearing pregnancy or diseases, but then we resist because we’ll remember Allah…

    3. Marrying young – first we need to be READY to marry young. And for that, it’s back to the parents… please raise us to be those mature young adults!

    (I know it’s all easier said than done, but yeah… that’s what I think…)

  30. Booze, yes they are on average better, but the fact remains women still gain weight, have difficulty getting pregnant afterwards, suffer from depression, DIE, get bloods and all that good stuff.

    Yes Musa, I am serious about vasectomies, although I am fully aware of what happens to a man’s insides, but it’s time men start destroying their bodies when they aren’t ready for parenthood. SMILE.

    I don’t know the meaning of “urfi.” Let me find the article I read on misyar marriages. I’ll post the link when I find it.

  31. Natalia,

    Who said there was a golden age of social (or sexual) norms all I said is there was a better age and I still stand by that statement.

    This generation is worse than it predecessors, and most likely the next generation is going to be worse.

  32. Bill,

    Thanks for the practical advice. All I’m worried about at this stage is whether my son will sneak on the Sponge Bob website. I hate Sponge Bob. I can guarantee you, however, that Muslims will never accept your senior year rule, unless our kids are getting married on prom night. Also keep in mind that Islam encourages a whole system of gender relations that make the goal of no premarital sex more feasible. Even then, many fall short.

    Umar, I think the verse you mention applied more generally to any “style,” but was revealed in response to a question about the style you artfully described.

  33. Signs of Our Times

    May i ask why you think the last generation was more sexually moral? You know, many people in the west feel the 50’s was a much better time as far as sexual morality is concerned, but only because these things weren’t discussed. A family member very close to me (I don’t need to say who) was repeatedly raped as a child in this era of sexual morality. She has told me how at the time the prevailing attitude led her to keep quiet all these years. It was easy for her abuser (a close family member) to keep her quiet because she was too ashamed to tell her parents, or teachers, or anybody – these things were simply not discussed.

    It’s only recently that she has started getting serious help, after much loss and suffering, because she feels less ashamed to speak about it. In a more open age there are far, far, far more resources available to women victims of sexual abuse.

    I think at the end of the day it’s easy for us to look back and say they didn’t do these things because it was never discussed, it was all hidden. I agree the hyper-sexualisation has to stop, and it is in our power to stop, i’m just saying that everything that happens today aside from the discussion happened back then too.

  34. i posted a long post and it’s not showing up. In the post i respond to Umar Lee DrM and Signs of our times.

    I hope it shows up.. anybody know why that happens to long posts?

  35. AnonyMouse,

    Wise words and well said.

    Bint Will,
    “Yes Musa, I am serious about vasectomies, although I am fully aware of what happens to a man’s insides, but it’s time men start destroying their bodies when they aren’t ready for parenthood. SMILE.”

    If you are kidding it is in bad taste. We are your brothers in this world and the next and should wish the best on us and likewise we should wish the best for you.

    There are too many people been divided by gender through lies and deception.

    Misyar is basically like a normal marriage except the wife gives up some of her rights. Like she lives with her parents, or husband does not have to financially look after her etc.

    Urfi marriage to sum it up is a marriage done in secrecy without a offical contract. It is just between foolish lovers.

  36. From what I understand, ‘urfi marriages sometimes fulfill the shariah conditions without all the cultural attachments. Where they often don’t is the consent of the wali.

    Are Misyar marriages halal? I understand that they are.

  37. Who here has read “A Return to Modesty” by Wendy Shalit?

    I’ve just finished reading it and am writing a book review for it right now, and was wondering what others’ thoughts on the subject were, because I think it’s really relevant to this topic.

  38. Sorry Sign of the Times, as I’ve said, it’s time men start destroying their bodies. Women have destroyed their bodies long enough via birth control and abortions. Like I said, I am fully aware of what happens to a man’s insides when he has a vasectomy

  39. AnonyMouse

    I have not, but i hear Girls gone Mild is very, very good. Here’s the book description on Amazon, check it out.

    At twenty-three, Wendy Shalit punctured conventional wisdom with A Return to Modesty, arguing that our hope for true lasting love is not a problem to be fixed but rather a wonderful instinct that forms the basis for civilization. Now, in Girls Gone Mild, the brilliantly outspoken author investigates an emerging new movement. Despite nearly-naked teen models posing seductively to sell us practically everything, and the proliferation of homemade sex tapes as star-making vehicles, a youth-led rebellion is already changing course.

    In Seattle and Pittsburgh, teenage girls protest against companies that sell sleazy clothing. Online, a nineteen-year-old describes her struggles with her mother, who she feels is pressuring her to lose her virginity. In a small town outside Philadelphia, an eleventh-grade girl, upset over a “dirty book” read aloud in English class, takes her case to the school board.

    These are not your mother’s rebels.

    In an age where pornography is mainstream, teen clothing seems stripper-patented, and “experts” recommend that we learn to be emotionally detached about sex, a key (and callously) targeted audience–girls–is fed up.
    Drawing on numerous studies and interviews, Shalit makes the case that today’s virulent “bad girl” mindset most truly oppresses young women. Nowadays, as even the youngest teenage girls feel the pressure to become cold sex sirens, put their bodies on public display, and suppress their feelings in order to feel accepted and (temporarily) loved, many young women are realizing that “friends with benefits” are often anything but. And as these girls speak for themselves, we see that what is expected of them turns out to be very different from what is in their own hearts.

    Shalit reveals how the media, one’s peers, and even parents can undermine girls’ quests for their authentic selves, details the problems of sex without intimacy, and explains what it means to break from the herd mentality and choose integrity over popularity. Written with sincerity and upbeat humor, Girls Gone Mild rescues the good girl from the realm of mythology and old manners guides to show that today’s version is the real rebel: She is not “people pleasing” or repressed; she is simply reclaiming her individuality. These empowering stories are sure to be an inspiration to teenagers and parents alike.

  40. Booze Penguin:

    Regarding the family member who was abused:
    I think what we need is a balance between what we had then and what we have now – we need emphasis on returning to abstinence and sexual morals, but ALSO have awareness of things like sexual abuse.

    We can’t be silent on these issues…

  41. AnonyMouse

    I agree, it seems to me that a big part of the problem is that in the drive to bring sexuality into the open many people have forgotten about the difference between healthy and unhealthy sexual relationships.

    I personally see this as the key. Self-respect and a deeper understanding about what sex is really all about is key.

    and, i hope you enjoy the book :D

    anybody know why my long post won’t show up??

  42. Umar Lee

    Thanks for the heads up, i wasn’t aware of that. I appreciate that.

    I still do not beleave that there has ever been an age of sexual norms. I think all the thigns happening now happened back in the day (pornography, prostitution, extra-marital afairs, pedophilia, rape, etc, etc.) I think there was a prevailing social attitude that prevented these things from being discussed.

    I think it’s discussion and education that can combat aids. Abstenance simply does not work for most people, and i oppose relying on it as a strategy for keeping kids from contracting STD’s, because it’s unrealistic for most people.

    What africa needs is education, condoms, birth cotnrol and aids medication. “old school sexual norms” are an illusion caused by socieites unwilling to debate sexual activities in public for fear of shame, and should not be relied on to prevent std’s, sti’s or teen pregnancy.

    Which is not to say i don’t see a problem with the hyper-sexualisation of young girls in our society. It’s damaging for everyone. I just see condoms, birth control and education regarding what a healthy relationship is as central to raising children who understand the differance between healthy sex and unhealthy sex.

    It would seem it’s mostly the methods we disagree about :D

    Oh BTW, i’ve been having some trouble with comments on your site. I’m on a mac using safari. Any advice you could offer me on getting my posts to work? It’s frustrating typing a big reply and losing it. thx

    Signs of Our Times

    I’m afraid i miss understood your opinion, i hope you’ll forgive me. I was under the impression you were suggesting boys and girls be separated to prevent sexual contact – i was wrong.

    And yes, i do believe in restrictions to sexual behavior because allot of the sexual behavior is self-destructive and dangerous. I was simply suggesting that it should be education and self-respect that prevents this behavior. If you rely on fear of god then if the child decides not to be muslim the entire reason or avoiding unsafe sex is lost. As well it’s my opinion that if the child refrains from unsafe sexual behavior because he is afraid of the parents retribution then what will happen if, god forbid the parent dies? Or the child moves away, or there is no way the parent will ever find out?

    If you instill a sense of self-respect in the child he/she won’t need a threat of retribution to keep them from engaging in unhealthy sexual activity – they will stay away from such things out of confidence and self-respect instead of fear.

    As far as cheating, i agree their are restrictions, i think cheating is wrong. Not because god says so, but because it’s profoundly hurtful tot he other partner. It’s out of respect for my girlfriend i do not cheat.

    I think we agree on this allot more then we disagree – I’m sorry i misunderstood your point, i didn’t intend to misrepresent your opinion.

  43. Natalia,

    Thanks for the anecdotal story but it adds nothing.

    It is not just sexual it is more than that. Society as a whole is breaking down. No one said life back then was perfect, or crime such as rape and murder did not exist. It just it frequency was less common. I can safely say that back in the 80s I could live my door open and feel ok about it. That back in the 50s children could play freely in the street without parents having to worry about them.

    Please read the following article, some of the words are from kids:

    Above I posted the wrong link I wanted to post this one:
    Instead of this:

    The other article posted was this:

    And here is another interesting article

    Young kids realise the damage that has been made, it is a shame not all adults see it. I would ask of you to read the articles, they are long winded but well worth a read.

    Urfi marriage: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nikah_urfi
    I didn’t realise it covered so much. I only new one type, which is the one common among students.

    Testing HTML Script: Google

  44. BoozePenguinsSecondAttempt
    “I think it’s discussion and education that can combat aids. Abstenance simply does not work for most people, and i oppose relying on it as a strategy for keeping kids from contracting STD’s, because it’s unrealistic for most people.”

    Actually statistics would say otherwise. AIDs and other STDs hardly exist in a lot of Muslim countries.

    “I think we agree on this allot more then we disagree – I’m sorry i misunderstood your point, i didn’t intend to misrepresent your opinion.”

    No need to apologies unless you are British then you haven’t apologist enough and I would use your lack of full British apology as proof of social standards are breaking (tongue-in-cheek) :P

  45. It seems as if all of you are missing the point and that is that these young people need to be flogged and this would set an example for the other youth that if you commit these acts this will happen to you too. Unfortunately, because we are in America we cannot do this.

  46. Natalia,
    Thanks for the anecdotal story but it adds nothing.

    It is not just sexual it is more than that. Society as a whole is starting to break. No one said life back then was perfect, or crime such as rape and murder did not exist. It just it frequency was less common. I can safely say that back in the 80s I could live my door open and feel ok about it. That back in the 50s children could play freely in the street without parents having to worry about them. That politicians weren’t so scummy etcetera etcetera…

    Please read the following article, some of the words are from kids:What’s Wrong with the Kids?

    Other article: Stolen Childhood

    And here is another interesting article:
    Youths fear decay of family

    A lot of young kids realise the damage that has been done, it is a shame not all adults see it. I would ask of you to read the articles, they are long winded but well worth a read.

  47. What Brother Umar speaks of is real. I am a 23 year old Musilma and was sexually active as a teenager. This never happened at the mosque or with other Muslims however. I think the fact that my family never talked about sex and I have a high sex drive naturally and developed at a young age caused this to happen. I explored a lot of different things sexually as a teenager including threesomes and experimenting with girls and it increased when I was a freshman and sophomore at college but then masha’Allah I found a good Muslim brother who was able to look past all of that and he was a virgin when we got married and he knew about my past. Some times you have to go through things in life and learn.

    This has also led me to understand why a man wants more than one woman and today I am helping him find a second wife insha’Allah.

  48. Meh. Wendy Shalit strikes me as shallow. [quote from TIME amazgine] She want society to “young lady” her, as in: “Young lady, WHAT are you doing?”[/quote from TIME magazine] I think personal responsibility should be her real focus – and no, I don’t think that said personal responsibility should extend to telling others, people like me, for example, on how to lead their lives.

  49. Abdullah,

    Not that I want to talk about that, but she is OK, too skinny for me, I am more of a Vida Guerra, J. Lo, Beyonce, ( and even a Shakira who is more thin) type of guy and of course we have many Muslim sisters who got it like that but they aint advertising it all over town like that.

    A brother once said that every Muslim man in NYC dreams of a mosque full of single Puerto Rican women and I guess I have the same dream…lol

  50. Signs,

    You should look at history objectively. Human nature has not undergone any major revolutions in the last few millennia.

    And the issues of being publicly open about one’s sexuality cycle around as well – there was once a time in ancient Ukraine when girls were considered marriageable only after having a kid, because it proved that they were fertile and hardy and capable of heading a household. So much for premarital sex.

  51. Signs of Our Times

    I’m afraid you may have some rather stale data. The issue with aids is that it goes undetected for a very long time, in Russia, for example, most people took the attitude that aids was a problem of the west. This denial allowed aids to spread silently and they are just now starting to realize the magnitude of the crisis. I hope the muslim world doesn’t make the same mistakes.




    Brazil teaches us that stressing condom use does work. Russia teaches us that denying the problem does not.


    Both governments took the AIDS threat very seriously, very quickly, and they weren’t afraid to talk about sex and condoms, she noted. Both nations started widespread education campaigns, using various means to get educational messages to the people, such as having the biggest pop stars perform songs that were played over the radio. They used billboards, newspapers and other means to contribute to the discussion, she said.

    She stressed that, while funds are important, what appears to work is open communication throughout the country about the nature of the disease and its modes of transmission, a discussion that transcends all of the different levels and beliefs of a culture. In Uganda and Brazil, this discussion was started from the top-down, but it can come from the grassroots as well, said Whetten, who is also the director of Duke’s Health Inequalities Program in the Center for Health Policy, Law and Management.

  52. Yes, Sign of the Times, I’m big Will’s baby girl.

    btw you said, “Vasectomies does alter you body in manner god not intended. Most scholars say it is harm unless medical reasons. Also note that reversal is not guaranteed.”

    This is why I am anti-birth control. Birth control pills (including shots) does the same to a woman. Abortion not only murders the innocent child, but it destroys a woman’s inside, including mental state, some die and others aren’t able to reproduce when they are ready. Remember with the shot some women do not get their monthly cycles…where is that blood going? It’s waste and needs to come out.

    Yes Abdullah, flogging will be in line… too many of today’s parents want to be their child’s friend. We can kick ur children’s behind – I do it all the time – we just can’t abuse them….don’t cross that fine line.

    For those who don’t give good old fashioned butt whippings, We can always try the scared straight approach…let them sit and talk with the numeorus healthy looking, drop dead gorgous men and women (who are plentiful in the DC metro area) with AIDS and HIV, and other STDs. Find young girls with children, they are more than happy to tell others they wish they would have waited because it’s hard being a teen parent. Remember in the Muslim community no one wants to marry a sister (whether she’s divorced or widowed) with children, including the FEW brothers with 10 children from 9 different women (one set of twins). All jokes aside remind the boys that they woudlnt’ want the same for their sisters (after all she is someone’s sister/daugther/cousin….) remember th hadith whre the Prophet told this to one brotehr who asked permission to fornicite…Yes we are in America, does that mean allow our chldren to run rampant?

    yes it’s hard, but i do believe it all goes back to a solid foundation which includes SELF ESTEEM/RESPECT and setting excellent examples as well as providing some constructive outlets. During my teen years I was too busy with my school work and after school activities, today’s children are mostly lack-key and couch potatoes. Remember we can always use a bad example as a reminder of how we don’t shouldn’t be. Our girls are being forced to get a new vaccine for HPV, a sexually transmitted disease under th guise it prevents cervical cancer. I posted an article on my blog a while back.

  53. “Remember with the shot some women do not get their monthly cycles…where is that blood going? It’s waste and needs to come out. ”

    Bint Will, if women are getting a shot like that there is no blood or waste that needs to come out whatsoever. That blood is not going anywhere because there is no blood even being produced. The shot prevents ovulation from occurring which in turn prevents menstruation from occurring. Hence, no waste or blood is building up and there is nothing that “needs to come out”
    Birth control pills do the exact same thing. Women who take them and think they are getting a “period” are not actually even getting a real one. The pills were designed so that women would bleed every month so that women would be more willing to take them when they first came out on the market. (ie: I’m bleeding every month therefore I’m healthy)

    In actuality, there are no studies that I’ve heard of that even indicate that women need periods every month in order to remain reproductively healthy. You could have three a year and be perfectly fine.

  54. Yes Abdullah, flogging will be in line… too many of today’s parents want to be their child’s friend. We can kick ur children’s behind – I do it all the time – we just can’t abuse them….don’t cross that fine line.

    This i profoundly disagree with. In my opinion turning to physical violence to manipulate a child’s behavior is damaging to the relationship because it establishes a dynamic of domination and fear. The child will listen to you – but only as long as he fears you. The child will learn to hide things from you more effectively.

    Not hitting your child isn’t about being their friend, it’s about protecting the trust that allows you to guide them in a healthy direction by exploiting their natural urge to impress you. Turning to fear as a tool of manipulation might get the job done in the short term, but i don’t believe it to be a long term strategy for success.

  55. More tabloid blogging at the expense of the Muslims eh Umar? Yes, it may be “real” but where does picking at sores get us? Trying to solve an issue is one thing, talking about it for laughs is another

  56. “More tabloid blogging at the expense of the Muslims eh Umar? Yes, it may be “real” but where does picking at sores get us? Trying to solve an issue is one thing, talking about it for laughs is another”

    Where do you see people laughing about this subject matter? As far as I’ve read muslims and non-muslims are discussing this like normal, mature adults.
    Talking about an issue is how you solve the issue. How do you think you solve a problem if you don’t even recognize it or discuss it? You don’t just ignore it and hope it goes away. The problem today is that people such as yourself are more concerned with their precious pride and not “picking sores than actually recognizing that problems exist and figuring out some way to solve the matter.

  57. sorry, thought i would post this for people to see. It’s in one of the links i posted above, regarding aids in the muslim world:

    Laura Kelley, an infectious diseases specialist and an author of the report, has been researching HIV/AIDS in the Muslim world for three years. She tells VOA that poor monitoring should not be mistaken for low infection rates. “When you start talking about the Muslim the world you are talking about 1.3 billion people. Chances are you have more than one million infected when you talk about all those countries rolled together. Inadequate surveillance has led people to believe that the disease simply doesn’t exist. We are challenging leaders of these countries to go out and adequately test for the disease and find out what the real prevalences are,” she said.

  58. Well Anon, it’s not NORMAL or natural for a woman not to have a monthly… Allah gave it to us for a reason. If you are pro birth control more power to you, I will not debate the issue with you because, as I’e told my husband my body is too precious to tamper with and I can’t see myself destroying it like that. If pills and shots are so safe, why is the list of SIDE EFFECTS so extensive? WOmen are suffering because of the effects of epidurals… I had all three NATURAL and it wasn’t painful as we are mislead by greedy doctors to believe. C-Sections are on the rise, why? Because they cost approximately $8K vs $5k for a vaginal birth. As a OR PROFIT doctor which would you prefer?

    Salafee, how is he picking a sore? Our girls are popping up on videos and pregnant for a reason… we pretend it as well as domestic violence and other ills doens’t plague the muslim community. I have a friend who is a niqaabi (all black as well) who gives e a hard time becuase some days I am not dressed properly…her niqaabi daughter just had a baby, by the brother of a friend. Yep, he married another sister, but hte point is she stresed the LOOK of piety, and not the actions. She made the mistake of allowing her teen to visit a friend knowing the boy was there and the boys mother wsn’t home.

    I see this all the time in the masjid, and no I dont go to a predominately black masjid full of half stepping converts. My masjid is predominately, African, Arab and SE Asian. I blame their parents because I do not believe they fully understand American culture and the strength of peer pressure. It was so bad last summer, even inside the musallah the boys and girls were eyeing each other to the point where the imam had to say something.

    Yes, let’s talk about sex…it’s not good enough to say Don’t do it, it becomes more enticing. GIve the real deal…the good and the bad, don’t just focus on the pleasurable aspects.

    Again, find constructive alternatives for our children, especially the girls. It’s difficult enough to have to cover, as we all appreciate attention from the opposite sex and want to be part of the In crowd. Most of our children attend public schools, last week we found out one of the interns has been skipping out on her intership. SHe leaves the high school at teh scheduled time, and returns on time… hwo is that gap (no pun intended) being filled? No one will say it, but I will…she’s out bang bang banging the head/stroking (for you old timers LOL)

    Now that we have to face the facts that our children are not immune to these ills, and Salafee I can have some Arab girls tell ou how they dated back home, let’s put our heads together and figure out how to protect and reeducate our youth. Let’s create and implement a structured program or these children, including nonMuslim children.

    Idle time is the devil’s playground

    Booze, the fine line is leaving a mark and bruise which often occurs when a child is punished out of anger (mom/dad loses control). You can beat a child w/out going over board OR you can be like old girl in MD and walk around IN FEAR of your child. Set the rules when they are young, yes they will test their limits and someone hs to be in charge. On my block, that’s ME. Children love discipline, the children around here call me “tough,” yet I cant’ keep the rugrats out of my apartment. They, ad their parents know I will drop kick em, I give the same freedom to any adult who finds m children out of line, including being disrespectful…bottom line they represent me when they step outside my door. FOrtunatley, I’m much nicer than my father and brothers.

    Also abuse is verbal…you are no good, just like your sorry mother/father.

    Our girls need their fathers, usually the sex is just a cry for male affection they are missing at home.

  59. Bint Will

    I see what your saying. You have to understand it’s a very, very fine line indeed and red flags go off when people start mentioning corporal punishment.

    And you are right, they need boundaries – it’s sad how many children are without a father (the father is alive, of course, just not available) to provide a sense of security and stability.

    And yes, these girls are starving for healthy male affection. By the time these girls are behaving promiscuously they usually honestly believe that being a slut is the only way to gain the acceptance of a man.

    as usual, this all starts at home.

    /was spanked.
    //don’t have a good relationship with parents, but not for that reason.
    ///still against it, but i see what you are saying.

  60. My friend met some Puerto Rican sisters who said that they wore niqab because everybody wants to get with them because they are Puerto Rican. I’ve seen pretty Puerto Rican girls, average ones, and ugly ones. There are a lot of black women who have similar thoughts on Puerto Rican men. Maybe it has to do with a like for light skinned men and the who machismo think. They get the benefits a pretty boy, without the downsides (i.e. they are not super cheap nor are they sissies, but they do spend an inordinate amount of time edging up the facial hair to get those perfect lines). But with Big Pun and Fat Joe, we know that there are attractive ones, average, and fugly ones.

    On the real, the model does look hungry. But I can’t knock Ali, to each their own. Some men like women who look like adolescent boys, some like them curvy, and others like them super thick like Somoan wrestlers. Beauty is subjective, but there are some universals that move us all.

    As for the sex in the masjid:
    Similar thing happened the MCA in Santa Clara, which is rather strict. Some teenagers were busted for doing the do in some closet. It sparked a huge controversy.

    I think it is reflective of the sad state of affairs. That kids would stoop that low to do “it” in the mosque. I don’t think these kids are doing it because they are freaky and exhibitionists. Instead, it comes as a result of a highly sexed but not embodied society and global culture and little recourse for expressing our sexuality in a halal way (few of us can afford to get married at a reasonable age). It is represents a failure of the parents and community to develop healthy outlets for young adults and young people who have little self respect.

    Some of it also comes down to the ways we use our masajid. For some young people, the mosque is the only place their parents allow them to go and hang out with friends. They assume if their child spends all their time in the community center and only around Muslims that they will be good people. I personally think that children should be allowed a social space at the same time I feel like supervision is necessary. But I also think that our young adults should be allowed to discuss things openly and honestly with their parents in order to understand the consequences of their actions.

    Also, there were some comments earlier about western mores seeping into Muslim countries. Funny thing is when you read early travel accounts in the Muslim world, you’ll find out how shocked the Victorian age British by the amount of brothels there. Also, if you read early modern medical books, you’ll find that Europeans relied upon Arab doctors for treatment of syphillis. So, people were getting it on and dealing with the consequences, just not out in the open.

  61. Bint Will

    I am also anti-birth control pill. I do not see how anyone can claim it is allowed within Islam. It obviously has negative effects on the body and gawd knows what it does to your mind. Side effects includes headaches, gain weight, mood changes etc. Sorry I do not see why anyone would take that.

    “You should look at history objectively. Human nature has not undergone any major revolutions in the last few millennia.
    And the issues of being publicly open about one’s sexuality cycle around as well – there was once a time in ancient Ukraine when girls were considered marriageable only after having a kid, because it proved that they were fertile and hardy and capable of heading a household. So much for premarital sex.”

    I have to disagree with you. Different societies had major revolutions. In the US they had the Sexual revolution and Feminism which changed social norms immensely. It is the revolution of ideologies that changes a society.

    It is a pattern of thinking that defines our social norms. In the early fifties the social norm was to wait until you get married before sex otherwise you will get ostracized by your peers and superiors. People adapted to these norms because most people have a desire to fit. It does not mean premarital sex was unheard of, it was just uncommon.

    In the Middle East, at one time a lot of the countries were under communism and Islam was restricted severely. Can’t say that now? These two periods had two completely different views of what was and what was not acceptable and people behaved accordingly. This can be clearly seen by the looking at old movies and comparing them to now.

    Social norms differ from society to society. If I go to Syria, I can see kids whom I have never met before playing in the street without fear. I can go and kick a ball with them, or scruffle a little boys hair and no one would think badly of it. And I do not look like a Syrian. Yet as a male, if I tried the latter in the UK at best I would get disproving stare or a scolding; at worse I will end up on the pedophile list. I lived in Syria for a while, and I can say kids there are more innocent and society there is not so perverse as here. Because of this “wholesomeness”, adults and kids behave differently towards each other, and the trust that exists between them is stronger even towards strangers.

    There is a video called “American Bedouin ” which you can get from a torrent sites. It is about an American women who decided to live in Jordan I think, there is one bit where she sits around a family who adopted her and she mentions the same observation I mentioned above.

    As society becomes more openly sexual and perverse then innocence will be lost, and with it a certain amount of trust. The Muslim world is affected by this like the West but they are not so “advanced”. Its main instigator is Television; highly violent movies does effect impressionable minds and likewise highly sexualized society and media will have an effect.

  62. Man, non-Muslims shouldn’t get to talk in front of us about ‘sex’! They go CUCU, man! I would erase their comments if I were you!

    Anyways, you know, an Egyptian guy I met recently told me that he has “banged” in one summer in Egypt more girls than he did living in Canada for 3 years!!!! He said Lebanese, Iraqi Christians, Gulf Arabs (i.e., SAUDIS, married ones even!!!) and Egyptian girls who were even aged 13 or 14 (he actually told me he heard girls at that age had sex, but not with him)!!!! And he’s Egyptian, and a (nominal) Muslim!!! He even said they don’t go after the European or Russian girls there anymore, that the ‘Arabs’ have become “self-sufficient”!

    Many among Muslims their religosity is decaying, and many are originally naive and don’t supervise their kids. A relative of mine I wanted to marry her few years ago, her dad himself is a Hamas activist who left the US after the crackdown on Islamists after 9/11, she told me during our ‘engagement’ about how other ‘cousins’ of ours would take advantage of her as a child and make her touch them ‘there’ or lead her to a room then take her to the bed and ‘french kiss’! That cousin of ours his older brother recently tricked this girl cousin I wanted to marry (he’s in his 30’s, she’s in her early 20’s now) telling her to go wake up some other ‘cousin’ of ours, she goes, he follows her to the room and tries to rape her!!! What did her supposedly religious Hamas dad do? Nothing!!! I would have rippped the guy’s thing out and put him in his behind then tortured him to death, and NOT open my house to him again and offer him tea (even make my daughter do that) when he would visit us few months or years after the incident!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    Many Muslims are fucked in the head themselves!!!! The protective jealousy in some have completely eroded!!!! In some non-religious ones you’d find it existing very strongly (like how the guy would sleep with all girls in his street, but if someone comes near his sister, he loses his mind!! -this is what happens about the Shia guys who practice temporary marriage!!). Meanwhile in the above example you have a supposedly religious Hamas follower without enough gheerah (protective jealousy) or enough parental awarenss to avenge his daughter’s honor or to keep her watched under his supervision when visiting other relatives who had boy teenagers!!!!!

    Dude, my own uncle would touch his own daughter, I remember it when she was 18 maybe and she came complaining to my dad!! I was younger than 10 but I remember even the dress she was wearing and its color!!!! There are some sick bastards everywhere and in every culture, man!!!! I never knew why dad never allowed us to sleep over at our cousins’ all these years, finally and only lately did I remember how our uncle was!!! My dad was very careful and aware, that he even warned me from the ‘shaikhs’ in some mosques when I started attending study circles at our local mosque in the Arab Gulf country I was born and raised in, and he was right, the guy there tried to build a special bond with me, would touch my thigh and look for me in the study circle and actually move the kid next to me so that he ends up sitting beside me, then placing his hand on my thigh, man!!!!

    Luckily, those were enough signs for me to leave the mosque altogether, and only go to the Friday prayer with the protective company of my father and the fear in my heart and eyes, not wanting to see the guy, ashamed as if I was the perpetrator (but I was a kid, you know)..

    Anyways, I came to the West at age 15, and I’m 28 now and I still never married or came near a girl (i.e., a ‘virgin’ -feels weird to use that word for a guy!), and even though dad’s protectiveness wasn’t as it was when we lived in the Arab world, we still did an excellent job, all 4 of us his kids, never falling into any major sin in the co-ed schools we had to attend, never taking boy/girlfriends, never smoking anything or taking drugs or drinking alcohol, nothing, and we weren’t regulrs at any mosque activities. I think we kept a safe distance from everybody, Muslim or not, and that’s why we all remain pure (those unmarried of us, the 2 boys). Even though my father is not a knowledgable Muslim, but he’s one with full awareness and open eyes even though he himself lost his dad before he went to highschool and it was his abovementioend sick brother who spent on the family!!! (And that uncle of mine his sons are just like him, would ‘feel’ other guys but they pretend its an innocent and only humor!)

    There is hardly anything distinguishing Muslims or Arabs of today from the kafirs!!! I actually see Muslims who fall in these sins kafirs are used to..to be worse than the kafirs, because the kafirs don’t know better, but we do!! Yet we turned our backs to our religion and neglected our kids, when it was our Prophet who even told us to seperate our children when they go to sleep, and taught us to knock on the door 3 times before going in, and if none allows us in then we’re to leave the place!! No body cares about Muhammad’s teachings, no body is honest about his khutbahs, no body!!!! Many of the shaikhs sons are the worst of the guys around!!!! The shaikhs are busy making converts of others, while they leave their own household a complete mess!!!!

    Two Palestinians girls in a close city to mine..their father in UAE is a shaikh, he sends his 2 young BEAUTIFULLLLLLLLLLL girls (who happened to wear hijab, by force maybe) to STUDY in the West. The girls ended up with boyfriends, drinking until they’d drop, making out in front of others while in their hijabs, going to Arab dance parties in the tighest dresses while in hijab, and kissing ex-boyfriends in front of me who remaind ‘friends’ with them after Allah knows what they did together, AND they would open the townhouse their dad was renting for them..as a brothel and a ‘slut house’ for any two who wanted a place for a ‘quickie’!!!!

    All these sinners disgust me, that’s why I don’t care to repeat that Muslims deserve Israel and America after them, and I wouldn’t shed tears maybe if we were nuked in the vast Arab world by Israel 400 nuclear bombs!!!! There is a lot of dirt that must be washed away before the next calipahte, or these wankers will be thorns on its path.

    Most Muslims going through Western school systems end up with f*cked up characters and akhlaq. To hear a hijabi girl in the bus stop tell her friend that “a virgin is hornier when she finally has sex because she saved herself”!!!! To have hijabi girls on their internet profiles in social networking sites call other ‘sexy’ and tell each other to ‘marry’ one another, and to ‘recommend’ her hot friend for marriage to any suitor (“guys, she’s a good catch!! you don’t know what ur missing ;)”), and to have self-described religious girls talk about the “hotttttttttt” actors in Arabic or Desi movies, and when you ask them what ‘hot’ means and they shamelessly say “sexy and attractive”, and then when you tell her mildly that it isn’t right to talk openly about the opposite sex like that (at leaaaaaaaaaast in public), only to end up with her saying “I speak my mind”!!!! Wow, congratulations!!! Back home they’d break her neck for seaking her mind about guys like that!!! I, the guy, started to feel weird while this girl’s shamelessness reached an unimaginable height!!!

    I won’t blame the West for corrupting our youth, because I talked I became aware of Saudi girls living in the capital of Wahhabism..who would tell random guys online they were “PMSing”!!!! And that their childhood pictures don’t differ much from their adult ones except for the new ‘additions’ they got (i.e., bigger boobs!!!) and then they would laugh about that!!!! How f*cking shameless!!!! I want to see these stinking Musilm heads rolling on the floor in front of me!!!!!!

    Our Prophet..was said to be more shy than a virgin girl in full cover. Islam taught us that not everything known or felt should be ‘expressed’ verbally, and that talmeeh (alluding to a thing) can make up for tasreeh (explicitly naming the thing)!!! But what are those ISNA conferences doing????? “Innumberable Sluts Now Available”!!! Indeed, that’s why I didn’t find a wife, because it’s hard to find the one with your akhlaq and the one who can instill your akhlaq to your kids when you’re not home or if you pass away before her and the kids are still so young and in need of care and raising on our Islamic values and teachings!!! I’d rather not have kids at all if I couldn’t raise them like I was raised. I didn’t say the word ‘shit’ except after going nuts at crasy people at age 17!!! I only started the type the ‘f’ word online less than a year ago (I never say it in real life) after having enough with the fake Muslims from all sects and the idiots who fill the cyberspace!

    That’s why I disbelieve in the imams at the mosques, and stopped going to ISNA’s or any other Islamic conferences because I saw how the young and the old went and left and nothign changed about their characters or deen!!!! The old go there because they’re bored, and the young go to check out the opposite sex and be checked out themselves!!! I say F*CK AN UMMAH LIKE THIS!!!!! F*CKING HORNY IDIOTS!!! AT THE UNIVERSITY THE MUSLIM GIRLS WOULD STAND WHERE I WOULD NOTICE THEM FROM WHERE I’D BE SITTING IN THE CAFETERIA; THEY WANTED TO GET MY ATTENTION TO MARRY THEM!!!! They would go crasy and say they ‘hate me’ to other gusy they knew..because I wouldn’t allow them a chance to talk to me “even though his sister is our friend”!!! Wow, don’t you admire the logic in that one? hahahahaha

    And these are students of Islam who attend a study circle on campus EVERY FRIDAY NIGHT (which I boycotted because they went and left for many years..yet when you say assalamu alaikum to one while you’re leaving, he wouldn’t know that it’s your right on him to answer back with it, and that f he doesn’t he’ll be punished in the Hereafter for that -their teache was busy warning them from Wahhabis on campus, teaching them to invoke the dead Prophet and to be madhab fanatics and Jahmis in 3aqeedah!!!)

    This is your ummah I wanted to serve one day and changed my life around for, only to realize the hard truth: they don’t care about religion, they are only after sex and money, just like the original kafirs. And they fall easily for the Western and Arab media that fights the true Muslims and seeks to always name and shame them. No wonde we’re treated as dirt by all the world, even though we’re the richest people everywhere (and as the saying goes: “you have a dollar, you’re worth a dollar”! But today our blood is the cheapest thing in the world, and we die in scores without any heed from anybody, Muslim or non-Muslim.

    You can’t possibly protect your child anymore by doing “hijrah” like many religious fools think!!! Go there and see how its messed up even more than in the West!!!! Our Iraqi former Christian convert (now a mosque’s imam) returned from Saudi to the West becuase he couldn’t live there anymore! You either lose your deen there in the Arab or Muslim world..or become an extremist (not necessarily a terrorist, but you’ll be in total animosity with the society as you’re trying to shield yourself from its ills and how they place culture over religion and make Islamic worship like a habit one can abandon or make it devoid of any spiritual growing originally intended for us by Allah!!!

    I’m a better Muslim..away from Muslims and their lands..in the lands of Kufr in the West. God bless Kufristan, where there is more justice and more rules than in the most modern UAE or the most religous Saudia!!!! Oh God keep away from me all the Muslims and Arabs, I can only tolerate them online now!!! I swear I’d puke at the scene of a group of them in one place!!! I was rushed home during my sister’s wedding because I couldn’t take the sight of so many Arabs in one place..dancing ‘dabkeh’ and playing music while segregating the attendants (my brother in law is a hypocrite religious who would leave the guests to pray maghrib but treats my sister like a piece of furniture and deliberately yells to scare his 2-month old baby “jokingly”!!!!)

    No fiqh, just f*cking. That’s what you f*cked up Muslims want. So get F*CKED by America, you f*ckers!!!

  63. yo just curious

    if u weren’t a virgin ur freaking comments wouldn’t be so damn long

    jesus christ

    find a wife. do muta’ if u must.

    you’d also stop with your exclamation mark obsession.

    i dont get old virgin dudes. either too many damn !!!!!! or too many :-) :-) :-)


  64. typical Muslim. His medicine for anything is just ‘sex’ or ‘more sex’!!! Your brain is between your legs!!

    based on ur logic, Umar is a virgin? but we all know he’s a father.

    take away ur Shia trash to ur Khomeini god’s grave and dump it there. this dunya is not about getting laid, you idiot.

  65. oh, and don’t invoke “jesus christ” you confused nominal muslim (at least this is what ur name, with the persina or urdu tweak, is telling me).

  66. ***In the early fifties the social norm was to wait until you get married before sex otherwise you will get ostracized by your peers and superiors. People adapted to these norms because most people have a desire to fit. It does not mean premarital sex was unheard of, it was just uncommon.***

    Not according to a recent study I saw, Signs.

    I ought to dig it up.

  67. Oh, and I don’t mean that people weren’t ostracized in the 1950’s. But what I am saying is that they did participate in activities you might deem “immoral.” They just didn’t talk about it a whole lot.

    The 1950’s are mythologized in modern-day America, but they weren’t an idyllic time.

    I’d rather take the risks of personal freedom and responsibility rather than have society control what I do in bed (and out of it).

    But then again, I am biased. ;)

  68. Misyar marriage has been discussed in the Malaysian press to mean a marriage where the husband is not obligated to support the wife financially. It was a hot topic for talks shows and such over here a little while ago. The popular arguments went something like this: The upside is it would help older unmarried women (andatu or “old maids”) who are already financially established to find a husband. The downside is it would allow deadbeat guys to take on multiple wives, since a major obstacle to plural marriage is financial upkeep of the second wife. I don’t know if the term has other connotations in the Arab world.

  69. Bin Gregory,

    The whole misyar concept came from an area in Saudi Arabia called al-Qassim, which some observers refer to (jokingly) as the Qum of the Salafis :D Hmmm, and the word itself is from the colloquial Arabic of the area, coming from the word ‘yaseer’ (to walk), meaning as one is travelling he’s seeing his (other) wives.

    People would abuse misyar just like they’d abuse anything else. Recently I read about a new form of marriage (also coming out of Saudi, it’s said) called Misfar (this time it’s derived directly from the word ‘yusafer’, to travel) which is to be used by the Saudi girls who want to study abroad but must have a mahram!!! So it is said in some liberal Saudi websites (usually which mock the religion and the religous) that this is something Saudi female students aspiring to further their education overseas are already seeking!!

    Anyways, if people knew Islam well, they’d be prepared for when they stand for the Account and be asked about what they used and abused, how they treated those women and multiple wives. And we all know that marriage with the intention of divorce is prohibited and is punishable. Commoners do all sorts of things, and they’ll never all walk on the straight path or do so all the time.

  70. Salam,
    The topic and the problem lies in co-ed. Mr. Umar have given the example of Egypt where this sort of practice also happens but failed to identify the other 90% of muslim countries where this does not happen, simply because of the fact that there is segregation between men and women. Women normally dont attend the friday prayers at mosques rather they prefer staying home. It is not farz on a woman to perfrom the friday prayer in a mosque but it is considered better if she stays home and offers her prayers there, exception is the Eid prayer.
    The article portrays an atmosphere created like of some church where men and women both attend at the same time. The people must realize this difference and not make a mosque their chruch . The one of the basic ideas of performing prayers in Jammat is that muslims mingle with one another. Going to the mosque at the same time by both the sexes every friday makes them mingle and mingling among sexes is forbidden. Yeah I know there are separate areas for woman and men under the ‘same’ roof but even due to this people are bound to bump with eachother.
    On account of Egypt, man have you visited that place? No offence to the Egyptians but they are acting like jews in that, when jews were told not to fish on saturdays , they dug up pits on the shore so that when at saturday they did not come for fishing , they still would be catching something, trying to please themselves and Allah at the same time.
    In Egypt, in the streets you see almost every woman wearing a scarf, but also wearing tight revealing jeans or shirt, trying to look glamourous and muslim at the same time.

  71. Just Curious… you’re the bloodthirsty freak who runs that “Shia Show” blog and posted all that stuff about killing us all and taking our women and children as slaves, right?

    I see now, that you’re not just a Shia hater, but a rabid misanthrope. And somehow, you manage to fit this disgusting worldview into the framework of Islam.

    May God guide you on to the right path. And no, I’m not necessarily talking about Ahlulbayt. Just the path of humanity… and being able to post something online without foam and flecks of spit covering your monitor.

  72. Many of the problems mentioned here are also found in Iran. Many Iranian women truly believe that if they only engage in anal or oral sex before marriage, they are still technically virgins and are saving themselves for their future husbands.

    It really is sad and shameful, the state of the Ummah.

  73. Haha, Dariush, long time no T, man!

    I did want to comment on the maniac Just Curious but I had no time yesterday, but your accusation motivated me.

    Indeed, Just Curious is a mad, rabid dog, and if he doesn’t repent from what he has said about the ummah of Islam Allah wil send down His Wrath on him just like he does on all the enemies of Islam and Muslims.

    I don’t see how you made me and that specimen the same person! Just because I may have used exclamation marks excessively before when I got fired up while talking about the Shia? That is no proof to make me and that Just Curious lunatic the same person!!! He seems to be mad about the Sunni laypersons around him, while I’m mad about your likes and I have no time nor will to tackle the subject of sinning Sunnis. Sinning is part of being human, and there are enough Muslims tackling these subjects all the time. I wouldn’t waste my time online talking about laypersons and personal experiences like that rabid dog does! For God’s sake he doesn’t even pray with the Muslims and praises the infidels and America and Israel nonstop!! If he dies on this state I don’t know with what eye he’ll look in the direction of the Supreme Judge, Allah -swt- and how he thinks he can be admitted but to HELL for what he utters against Muslims and in praise of their enemies.

    Dariush, thanks for reminding me about our earlier encounter. I shall return to it soon :)

    Are you enjoying the Show about your people? If you’re Iranian, you shouldn’t concern youself with it, because your people have renounced Islam and can’t even be considered Shia (unless you are from the remnants who are still glued to the walls of Ghom).

    Just Curious, repent to Allah before He destroys you for what you said, and keep those sick personal stories about your relatives to you alone, we don’t need your dirty laundry!!

  74. The story that brother Umar described is the result of many issues – and it seems that too many of the previous posters try blaming it on one sole problem. The non-muslims or “progressives” are saying it’s a problem with the Muslim view of sex. The “conservative” Muslims are saying this is exactly why Muslim men and women should not inter-mingle. Both of these hint at a problem, but do not complete the overall picture. Muslims in America have yet to figure out how to deal with this issue. (And there is no simple solution outside of actively changing our collective perception of the topic.) Cultural practices have labeled sex as taboo. Yet, sex is mentioned in the Qu’ran – so to ignore it as Muslims is to disregard a topic in the Qu’ran that is essential to human life. Sex is very important. Not only does it fulfill the biological desire to reproduce (and survive) but it fulfills emotional, psychological, spiritual, and social desires. Sex is as much about body as it is mind, thus making it a delicate and essential act. Because of this, rules and regulations have been issued to define the acceptable parameters. These parameters need to be discussed in the open and the taboo must be lifted, or else we Muslims will fall into the same traps as the Christians and Jews. It is my opinion that the debasing of the meaning of sex in modern culture has lead to numerous other issues. Our ideas of what a healthy sexual relationship is, have been sold to us through entertainment and advertisments – in order to keep the capitalist machine churning. (This of course is a whole ‘nother topic.) And those who claim that society’s acceptance of the current casual sex culture is a positive form of liberation should read Ariel Levy’s Female Chauvinist Pig.
    BoozePenguin – You state that sex is natural and beautiful. Yes. This is also the view of Islam. Muslims get a blessing for engaging in these acts with their spouse. Yet, that doesn’t give Muslims the permission to engage in sex outside of a specific set of rules – that being marriage. Actually, so is the case with Christianity and Judaism – neither religion allows pre-marital sex. However, many Christians and Jews have chosen to ignore those laws. We are now seeing a larger swath of the Muslim population choose to ignore such laws – which is bound to happen, seeing the variety and sheer number of Muslims, along with the diversity of level of imaan. But just because people feel the need to do so, does not mean they have the right to do so. Islam is a way of life, a set of guidelines for humans, a set approach for dealing with self, others, and the Divine. You either accept it or you don’t. You can’t go around justifying why one thing is acceptable and the other isn’t. God is All-Knowing, All-Wise. There is a greater wisdom in the rules that we must abide by. It just comes down to faith.
    Plus, you mention that rampant sexual activity has always existed. Then you turn around and say that the problem with AIDS in Africa is about education and protection. Well, if casual sexual behavior has occurred for so long, why then is AIDS a recent phenomenon? STDs and AIDS will exist as long as people refuse to practice personal accountability. Sex without any “strings attached” (those strings being legal and moral responsibility for the results of a sexual union, like marriage) allows for men and women to avoid personal responsibility in dealing with the many social/emotional/spiritual results of intercourse. This has lead to new diseases, both of mind and body, along with social and familial breakdowns. The sanctity of marriage relies on the sanctity of sexuality. If sex is a cheap and abundant commodity that can be attained at the lowest cost, than simple economics state that it’s value will drop. If we devalue sex, we automatically devalue marriage. If we devalue marriage, we devalue family. If we devalue family, we devalue society.
    JustCurious – I feel your pain brother. It hurts to see our Muslim sisters/brothers act in such a way. We as Muslims strive to want for our brother what we want for ourselves. I don’t want my blood sister to act like a whore, so I definitely don’t want my sister in Islam to act like one either. “Non-western” Muslims seek to mimic every aspect of “Western” culture without acknowledging the many ill-effects of such behavior. It hurts to see my brothers/sisters fall so willingly into that trap. However, your anger seems out of place and quite intense. You have to understand there are people who follow Islam, and those who don’t. The Qur’an states that many people will think they believe, but in reality do not. Allahu Alam.
    You just have to continue to stay on siraatul-mustikeen and lead by example. That’s how the Prophet (pbuh) did it, and that’s why Islam spread so quickly.
    We (Muslims, non-Muslims) cannot continue to ignore the deeper meaning and importance of sex, nor can we avoid it as a taboo. We have to have open, informational, and respectful dialogue. For that, I am thankful, brother Umar, that you posted this issue. Shukran.

  75. brother Umar,

    I suggest that you, please, remove the guy Curious’ posts. His way and his language is incredibly awful and disturbing to read on a respectful blog like yours. Please consider this.

    I call on Just Curious to apologize to all Muslims he has insulted and sworn at here. It’s absolutely unbearable to see such words coming from a Muslim. I can’t imagine how he’s still Muslim!!! If Muslims hurt you in your life, Just Curious, go read Surat Yusuf and learn from the forebearance of Prophet Yusuf on his brothers and the people of Egypt!! Read the Surah with tafseer and cool down, man!! Did you pray Jum’ah today? Oh, I forgot, you said you don’t come near Muslims! But which Muslim woman will marry your likes? What kids will you bring to the world? Who will want to be with someone like you???

    Back to Dariush, the ruling I stated before concerning the Shia is the rule of Allah concerning any deviant group of people we must exterminate to stop them from misguiding His slave-servants and spreading mischief in the earth. Such is the likes of the Shia (Imamis, Alawites, Druze, but not the Zaydis) and the Jews.

  76. Natalia
    “The 1950’s are mythologized in modern-day America, but they weren’t an idyllic time.
    I’d rather take the risks of personal freedom and responsibility rather than have society control what I do in bed (and out of it).”

    There is no such thing as idyllic times because humans are not perfect. I said better times and I will stick by that statement. :P

    One only needs to look back at the number of unwed pregnancies compared to now. They didn’t have birth-control like we do and I doubt teenagers were more careful considering most were laymen on the matter and yet it not even a small percentile existed then compared to the problem we have. Do you think there were over a million unwanted babies in the 50s? Somehow I doubt that. And likewise I doubt sex outside marriage was this prevalent. Sexual habits have changed and other social interactions. I do not even need to look back as far as the 1950s, the 80s were different and so was the 90s. Each generation pushes the boundaries of acceptability as morals have become abstract and subjective.

    No one in their right mind can deny that society was better even if it had its own unique faults. It was less materialistic, sexual, greedy etc.

    According to the UN, Britain and the US are ranked as the worst developed place to be a child, and I agree. Any Brit who has travelled across Europe would realise what a bunch of assh*les we are raising. Well the problem actually lies with the adults. I have never been to the US but I assume we share a lot of the same faults due to our language and the ease of culture to cross over.

    BTW: You can do whatever you want in bed, I am not a big fan of big brother or sister. Privacy is a human right.

  77. Signs of Our Times

    back in those days abortions where self inflicted in secret to prevent shame.


    The practice of self-induced abortion by various means has long been recorded in the United States. Turn-of-the-20th-century birth control advocate Margaret Sanger wrote in her autobiography of a 1912 incident in which she was summoned to treat a woman who had nearly died from such an attempt.[1]
    A study concluded in 1968[2] determined that over 1.2 million illegal abortions were performed every year in the United States, a portion of which were performed by women acting alone. The study suggested that the number of women dying as a result of self-induced abortions exceeded those resulting from abortions performed by another person. Due to estimated underreporting of illegal procedures, these numbers may not be accurate.[citation needed] A 1979 study noted that many women who required hospitalization following self-induced abortion attempts were admitted under the pretext of having had a spontaneous abortion.[3]


    There are a number of anecdotally recorded and disseminated methods of performing a self-induced abortion. These may include:
    physical exertion designed to bring about a miscarriage
    abdominal massage
    receiving blows to the abdominal area
    attempted removal of the fetus with a coat-hanger or similar device inserted into the uterus through the cervix
    attempted piercing of the fetus with a knitting needle or similar device inserted into the uterus through the cervix
    self-induced suction through the insertion of a rubber tube into the uterus via the cervix
    ingesting abortifacients, high quantities of vitamin C, or other substances believed to induce miscarriage
    douching with substances believed to induce miscarriage (beginning in the 1960s, many women used Coca Cola for this purpose, although its utility is at least dubious)

    These things all happened they were simply not recorded. As with aids in the muslim world poor record keeping should not be confused with low rates.

    I stand by the assertion that the 50’s was not idyllic – these things were just not discussed.

  78. Salaam

    Umar Lee, what was the point of your post? Teenagers acting stupid? so what? Isn’t this what you expect of teenagers at this age? Why not make a post on how the sky is blue? Why expose their sins which you aren’t suppose to do ? Why not advise them and people involved in such acts privately as you are supposed to do? (That they get married)? Why cause fitnah?

    May Allah guide you… Your blog just makes me explode.

    As for solutions for being moral – it’s simple marriage. Parents need to grow up their children like adults. You can always be married in school. It’s just like dating except that you’ve had a nikah. The girl can live with her parents while the guy lives with his. And when he finishies school and starts working, then can move it. That’s it – Islam is that simple.

  79. BoozePenguinsThirdAttempt,

    A study concluded in 1968[2] determined that over 1.2 million illegal abortions were performed every year in the United States, a portion of which were performed by women acting alone.

    1968 with the sexual revolution going on. It is no surprise the number of abortions were so high. With free love i.e. “chicks” giving it for free, I would expect it to go high.

    I am sure if the most sexually repressed nation on earth went through such a revolution now its abortions is going to rocket.

    So there was a strong reason why it soared during that period. If you go later on into the 70s after the abortion was made legal and after things started to come down a bit from the sexual revolution and then the hippie age, you would find that abortions was less than 1.2million. A good analogy: in war time more people die annual, in sexual revolution periods I would expect more unwanted pregnancies. It would seem pretty obvious statement.

    The sexual revolution broke society and did a lot of damage.

    I stand by the assertion that the 50’s was not idyllic – these things were just not discussed.

    Ahhh, again words being put in my mouth: no one said it was idyllic all I said it was better. :( Better does not mean idyllic or perfect it means better than what we currently have now.

    The prophet (SAW) stated that each generation would be worse than it predcessor. It is obvious to see for anyone who has lived long enough or those look at things objectively.

  80. Every generation is NOT worse than the one that preceeded it, otherwise the first Muslim community would be worse than the pagans before them. My grandparents’ generation had their virtues, but let’s not ignore that they DIDN’T LET BLACK PEOPLE DRINK OUT OF THE SAME WATER FOUNTAINS. Or were constantly trying to ferret out out “Un-American” political and social ideas. Or started the Vietnam war. Or any number of other things. Plenty of girls were getting knocked up in the 50s. As for society having better sexual mores then, I guess if you consider laws againsty interracial marriage to indicate higher sexual morality, yeah, they had us beat.

    Oh, and deviant sexual practices have long been prevalent in the middle east. It used to be considered a given that European gentleman travelling who wanted some boy-ass would have a chance to score it in the middle east. Promiscuity has little to do with western influence and much to do with the fact that Muslims on the whole don’t really act much better than anyone else, much as we like to pretend otherwise.

  81. Signs of Our Times

    You are right, i didn’t mean to put words in your mouth.

    However, i don’t think you can back up that assertion the 50’s was better. there simply isn’t data available to suggest less illegal abortions where happening because nobody was collecting the data for social reason.

    Kinsey was really the first to start and at the time people were shocked to find out that most people masturbated :D. These things were simply not discussed and studies were rarely made.

    There simply isn’t data to back up that claim. There is however plenty of data to suggest it wasn’t discussed, such as the reaction to the first kinsey report.

    Personally, I agree with parallelsidewalk, because my subjective experience with family members alive in this time suggests these things still happened – it was just that everyone was too ashamed to talk about it.

    Pedophilia, bestiality, rape, homosexuality (although it was a much bigger secret, you could die for that back in the day), anal sex, oral sex, orgies, etc. We have records of these things happening all the way back from now to the 50’s to victorian england to the ancient middle east to ancient greece. I don’t believe that much has changed – and if it has i certainly haven’t seen data suggesting it has.

    suppose we’ll have to agree to disagree ;).

  82. To Umar Lee Please Read,

    I deal in realness and you will find that those communities, Muslims or non-Muslims, that believe in not airing dirty laundry are usually in a failed state.

  83. Yo Ahlulbayt worshipper, I wouldn’t waste my time on you, hopeless!!!!! Building an entire blog to scandalize you is not a mission I’d ever assign myself!!!!!

    Mr. Hariri, please keep your Friday khutbah for yourself. And don’t come near the dirty laundry, leave it alone!!!!We aren’t angels!!!!

  84. parallelsidewalk, BoozePenguinsThirdAttempt

    “Every generation is NOT worse than the one that preceeded it, otherwise the first Muslim community would be worse than the pagans before them”

    It is every generation after the prophet. You need to look at the larger picture and not the individual case or your subjective view. Overall we are falling apart. A billion and half and growing of wishie washie Muslims. And if we are talking about society, and in this case Western (and even Eastern) then yes it is falling apart. Every indicator says so.

    Those who claim otherwise are blind in my view.

    “I guess if you consider laws againsty interracial marriage to indicate higher sexual morality, yeah, they had us beat.

    Oh, and deviant sexual practices have long been prevalent in the middle east… etc”

    What the heck is your point here? I know it has been prevalent for a long time, but it is getting worse. As to comment on the ban on interracial marriages, what an inane argument for worse off sexual morality. You can have a moral marriage within your own race, something they did quite regularly back then; not the case now, is it? Now you have the moral law to marry white, black pink or blue and yet people are not clambering to take it. Now long lasting marriages hardly exist. Which one had the higher morals standards? It should be obvious.

    Here are some of the changes (Some only apply to Islamic world):

    1) Sexual depravity through the TV box
    2) Sexual promiscuity
    3) Increase in open unnatural practices
    4) Abortions galore
    5) Open promiscuity
    6) Open sales of Alcohol in Islamic State.
    7) The increase of minimal clothing
    8) An explosion in single parent families (Black Society)
    9) STDs (Was it as common in the 50s? Want to think about this one. Hadith: “If fornication should become widespread, you should realise that this has never happened without new diseases befalling the people which their forebears never suffered.” 50s never had AIDs)
    10) Children ruling their parents and not the other way around.
    11) Increase in divorce
    12) Increase in family breakdowns. Cutting off relations.
    13) Suicide rates
    14) Spread of deceit and lies; hello CNN, Fox news etc. And hello satellite dish in every home
    15) The increase of the percent of wealth in the hands of few
    16) Increase and acceptance of the practice of bribery (see that in certain ME countries.)
    17) The destruction of real money and the presence of fiat money which has no worth as it no longer has gold backing. The prophet said there would come a time when the nothing would be of use to you except a dirham (Silver coin) and Dinar (Gold coin)
    18) Usury and being in debt becoming the norm.
    19) The living beyond your means. Oh I must fall in debt so I can have my BMW or my sixth TV, a plasma 49″.
    20) The spread of greed and narcissism (Watch the “The Century of the Self” and then “The Trap”. Both are by Adam Curtis)
    21) The increase of wastefulness and gluttony. 70% of Americans are overweight. Well over a billion people in the world are overweight and around 800million are starving. How messed up is that.
    22) A whole corrupt financial and banking system.
    23) Increase of poverty in so called developed countries
    24) Increase of poverty generally
    25) Corporate slavery and the merger of corporations
    26) Big Brother
    27) Neo-colonism
    28) Increase in Crime (So easy to see. Murder, homicide. Not something that can be hidden even in the 1950s were people don’t talk about hush hush things)
    29) Increase in socially damaging trends
    30) Increase of vulgar language. The deterioration of language
    31) The increase of innovations in faith.
    32) The increase of false Islamic books that are wrong
    33) The increase of Self Ijithad even when it contradicts scholars both old and new.
    34) The increase of false accusations
    35) The breaking of trust. You can see that from some of the comments above.
    36) The increase of wars. And yes wars have increased since Vietnam. And now we have the endless war on a phantom. Of course it is about oil, power, petrodollar, Israel and Americas hegemony.
    37) The increase in power of the UN other corrupt international organisations, over countries.
    38) The spread of regression to Pre-Islamic practices
    39) Drug wars
    40) Etc…

    Also there is something different between out is hidden and what is open. When it is open it will be imitated and encouraged. Even in the Prophets time hidden fornication was committed yet would anyone here like state that it was worse than now. Hmm?

    Abortion: In the 50s I would state that it hardly existed if you compare it to now. I do not know how people can think otherwise. Let us look at abortion after it was legalised and after the sexual revolution calmed down.

    AGI – Alan Guttmacher Institute (Planned Parenthood)
    CDC – Centers for Disease Control
    NRLC – National Right To Life Committee
    CIRTL – Central Illinois Right To Life

    (AGI) (CDC)
    1973 744,600 615,831
    1974 898,600 763,476
    1975 1,034,200 854,853
    1976 1,179,300 988,267
    1977 1,316,700 1,079,430
    1978 1,409,600 1,157,776
    1979 1,497,700 1,251,921
    1980 1,553,900 1,297,606
    1981 1,577,300 1,300,760
    1982 1,573,900 1,303,980
    1983 1,575,000 1,268,987
    1984 1,577,200 1,333,521
    1985 1,588,600 1,328,570
    1986 1,574,000 1,328,112
    1987 1,559,100 1,353,671
    1988 1,590,800 1,371,285
    1989 1,566,900 1,396,658
    1990 1,608,600 1,429,577
    1991 1,556,500 1,388,937
    1992 1,528,900 1.359,145
    1993 1,500,000 1,330,414
    1994 1,431,000 1,267,415
    1995 1,363,690 1,210,883
    1996 1,365,730 1,221,585
    1997 1,365,730 1,186,039
    1998 1,365,730 884,273*
    1999 1,365,730 861,789*
    2000 1,312,990 857,475**
    2001 1,303,000& 853,485**
    2002 1,293,000&
    2003 1,293,000&&
    2004 1,293,000&&

    &AGI estimate
    &&NRLC base figure
    *excludes NH, CA, AK, OK
    **excludes NH, CA, AK

    See a pattern? Does it look like it is increasing? Common sense and listening to elders would tell you that society’s sexual practices have increased and with that the likelihood of unwanted pregnancies will also increase. Break the foundation of society and it falls apart. At one time America had Christian morals, then morals became subjective and education became not necessarily immoral but amoral. Abortion is not the only issue, there is more to this. And by the way I never claimed it never happened, it increased. The emphasis is on the increase; that society was better than now is most likely accurate. And we are talking about more than just Muslim society we are talking about American society. Why do people keep writing anecdotes of moral decay in the past, I never claimed it never happened or that it wasn’t hidden, I said that it was less common than it is now. So whatever happens now, it happened back then. It just now it is socially accepted and it is more common.

    As to that claim of 1.2million abortions in 1968, it seems there is a disagreement with that. I did a check on it because I doubted the veracity of such a high number even in during the “sexual revolution”. Some claim it is more likely to be around 200,000. But I guess if someone is trying to legalise abortion then inflating the number helps.

    Read here for an explanation why there is doubt in the number.

    Either way 1.2 or 200,000 is still way too high.

    Now from an Islamic perspective: Look at the minor signs and tell me how many existed fifty years ago and how many exist now. And when it mentions items such as fornication or alcohol it says an increase or something similar.

    As a whole, I am talk about the billion+ Muslims, then I say that we are regressing. However there is a community of growing Muslims that is moving forward and in the right direction. Not perfect but better than most.

    And if you take in the Muslims and non Muslims alike then we are worse off. If you look at societies such as America or the UK, then it is breaking and worse off. If you look at governments they are becoming more powerful and in the process more intrusive.

    Some of you are taking this to personal. This is not an attack on you, but an observation on society.

  85. I do wonder about the value of such shock-value posts. And I especially wonder about them when they become fodder for perverts and morality bereft losers like Ali (see the previous back-link).

    Previously, this degenerate referred to ‘salafi whores’ on his morally-bankrupt website, now he wants to do niqabis. Why is it that those who are on the forefronts of the pro-regressive ideology are somehow smitten by everything Freudian? Also, it begs the question, it is possible that these individuals have not had any real intimate experiences, so they fantasize about it day and night on the net.

    Umar, an advice from your friend here… it is not a question about hiding dirty laundry. Rather, it is a question of whether you are really cleaning it, or you are just making it dirtier. If the answer satisfies your conscience, my brother, then Godspeed to you… wallahualam.

  86. I’m absolutely sick of Eretaz and his ilk, they may dress it up as liberalism or whatever, but really the way they mock and belittle Muslim women is misogyny of the most despicable kind.

  87. Every time I read Ali’s poetry, my heart flutters. Why? Because each time I read his purple prose, I wonder if this is the moment that the ummah has been waiting for when this miserable, depressed and pathetic creature kills himself. Unfortunately he hasn’t done it yet and he and that intellectual brothel of a website continue to pump out shit.

    It’s a tragedy that decent bloggers like Thabet and Haroon Moghul shut down their own blogs and got behind Ali. Both of them seem to believe in Islam and like the religion so I don’t know what they have in common with someone like Ali.

  88. Is promoting Hussam’s blog really the best way you can think of to show your solidarity with Iraqi Sunnis?


  89. Dr. M, the same ratio would happen on a non-Muslim website as well. Breast cancer doesn’t have as large a spread of experience as casual sex does.

    This topic for me personally is a heartbreaker. I have seen my community (Bangladeshi Muslims in America and even worse rich elites in Bangladesh) turn from shyness to open sexual perversions. Also I don’t appreciate that everybody here concentrates on the sisters, when many times its the sons/brothers who are responsible and do the grimy deed. In my community, growing up it almost felt like the sisters would observe the brothers for years and wait for them to mess up and have a girlfriend or drink or smoke. Once they did that, they could convince themselves that it was okay for them to have sex, since the dudes would correctly be hypocrites and couldnt say anything. Parents are everything. Parents don’t realise that they could be the heroes of their children. Children observe everything that their parents do and will point out hypocrisies and inconsistencies between what they say and what they do. Parents have to live Islam fully. Surely it is a Jihad to raise a beautiful child in this world, a child with an Iman that puffs up their chest, a humility that keeps their gaze low, a maturity and a fuller understanding. Muslims have to take the initiative in this country in bringing back the family. Countless hours in front of the TV or video games or internet, glazing their soul’s windows with mindless absurdity, images of numbing violence, hardening their hearts with the sarcastic humour of the athiest, and perverting them with the most unholy sexual acts (kids have seen pornographic material a lot of times by age 10) does not and will not make a solid Muslim but a frustrated waverer at best, a kufir at worst. All these windows to other peoples lives and fantasies but where is the family spending time? Parents are simply seen as banks by kids, and they are seen that way because the mother wants to be closer and more like a “friend” to her kids than a mother. Kids talkin back to their parents, insulting them, running them and ordering them, and parents thinking their kids are a burden and not a blessing.

    This is leading to mass infantilisation of adults as well. I’m 24 now and yet I find only few differences between most adults and kids. Other than money and independence, most adults are simply pleasure seekers like kids and are just as immature with even bigger consequences.

    I am far from perfect or even a good Muslim, but I pray and plead with God that when I have children, they will grow up and say ” My father was never a hypocrite. Whatever he said and beleived, he lived it.He gave us his time and energy and taught us about Islam and lived it as best he could” Even if they dont practise Islam, I want them to have to say that about it me in all honesty.

  90. No Bang Gully, I don’t think its the casualness of sex, its just that people don’t care about other things. One comment had it right that theres a tabloid sensationalist element to this post. Yes, there are kids engaging in haram activities but to say that this is a widespread problem in our community is untrue, and slander against many pious and upstanding young Muslims.

  91. ….

    I..just want to say I’m..sorry for the way I talked about Musilms in my long comment above… I shouldn’t talk like that about people in general particularly since overgeneralization is always wrong.. I said very very awful things about Muslims and Arabs and no matter what, they are still my people and the ‘grass may look green on the other side of the fence’ always, but my people don’t know better either..I have to blame the school systems they come out of for not making them civilized or courteous enough to deal in fairness and adab with fellow Arabs and Muslims, and thus the blame should be on the governments which don’t care about the kind of people they rule and suck money out of in the name of taxes and ask them to obey them blindly…

    I apologize on the way I spoke above and I take it all back except for the real stories that can’t be erased. I honestly didn’t know before about the lessons from surat Yousef and couldn’t find but a lecutre online by Amr Khaled on it and it opened my heart to realize how such an awful person I was in what’s written above. I sincerely apologize to everyone who was disturbed by my comment and I promise not to do that again and to return to the lines of Muslims and go back to praying on Fridays and stand beside other Muslims in line…

    I’m sorry, I really am. I guess the anger and hurt feelings took the best of me and it was really eating me from inside. It ahd to stop. It’s now time to stop it.

  92. ive lived amongst muslims of diffrent backgrounds and sects and to be honest ive allmost lost my iman, especially afer doing a tour of a number or musim countries, especially the arab states, the hypocrisy the sectarianisms and tribalisms that so prevail amongst muslims make me wonder wat the purpose of islam was, in my travels i have learned that if it was nt for muslim WOMEN then ALLAH would have allowed this ummah to have been even more hummiliated than it is now, ive seen a few arab and paksitani muslim sluts wear hijab and there parents act all religous wich is truely disturbing to say the least, but the overall muslim women ive come across r very self respectfull and sincere and protective about there chstity, VERY UNLIKE MUSLIM MEN,and even them muslim girls that gets fingered in mosques is becuase of the fault and hypocrisy of muslim men, especially amongst the arab commuinities since they have no problems wis allowing there girls to wear hijab and then allow them to mix wis boys, or muslim men tempting muslim women to be sluts then leaveing them and accuseing them of bieng sluts lol, in egypt i learned that muslim men encourage there girlfriends to have sex wis them and wen after months of convincing them and tempting them they do , then they leave them becuase they think they were weak and cant be trusted no more, in morroco the men openly talked about haveing sex wis water melons by punching a hole in it and then inserting there dicks there after, in others liek saudi they have sex wis little kids from yemen and then dump them in the deserts like fucking garbage, ive had 5 muslims girlfriends back in my wild days and none of them , i mean NONE OF THEM ever allowed me to have sex wis them,and they were non hijab wearing muslims from very modern fammilies, how the word has changed in just a few years, but i know hufaz of quran and imams who have been seeing whores and i even heard of a qari who slept wis the daughter of the imam that invited him to stay in his house after he was invited to a lecture on islam as a recitor, wat imams we have hey just curios lol, anyway ive had enough of muslims, they could stick there constant wailing and bitching to them selfs, and there hatred for one another, there sectarianism and tribalism and all there shit, ive learned that arabs treat arabs like shit but wen jews or americans even utter a word bad agaisnt them they start moaning like whores to the world and demonstrating burning american flags and then going home or to the net cafes to wacth some american porn or begging some white girl to sponser them to go to america or europe, if it was nt for the Quran and the respect i have for my muslim sisters i would have left islam long ago, ive learned muslim women r the most chast women on this planet, ive learned muslim men r the most corrupt sly evil bastards on this poor planet, and sickened to see in the last few years muslims sisters wearing hijabs getting corrupted by muslim men, keep it up sisters, u r the proper muslims in this sick ummah,

  93. Hamza,

    Right on point brother…..

    …you took the words right out of my mouth. Some of things that I’ve seen in the muslim world would make any weaker muslim loose thier faith immediately.

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