“The ragheads did it!”

Yesterday the anti-Muslim bigots were busy blaming the Muslims.

Debbie Schlussel adds 2+2 and makes 1,379:

Here’s what we know about the murderer of at least 32 students and maimer of at least 28 more at Virginia Tech, today:

The murderer has been identified by law enforcement and media reports as “a young Asian male.”

The Virginia Tech campus has a very large Muslim community, many of which are from Pakistan (per terrorism investigator Bill Warner).

Pakis are considered “Asian.”

There were 2 attacks at least half a mile apart.

There have been at least two bomb threats to this campus in the last two weeks

 A few comments at Robert’s place after his implication that it was a Muslim:

According to reports from ABC News, the killer was “a young Asian man.” Any bets?

If I were a betting man I’d be heading to Las Vegas right now…….the odds are in my favor that this is somehow linked to the religion of peace.

Would not suprise me if the term “Asian man” means someone who is Muslim. What we are dealing here is possible PC code talk.

And even after the shooter was identified, they are still saying that he is Muslim

Let’s not forget about Yong Ki Kwon, a Northern Virginia KOREAN engineer who converted to Islam and wanted to fight in Afghanistan.

 I say what I said before and now. Whoever did it -regardless of religion or race- was a nut. PERIOD. END OF STORY. But not with these guys. Every tragedy must be blamed on us somehow. If the perpetrator was not Muslim, then it is not a tragedy at all.

My heart goes out to the victims of the shooting and all of those affected…No blood is cheap

Tariq Nelson has an emotional update here

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62 thoughts on ““The ragheads did it!”

  1. Knowing that the word “Asian” means something different to Americans than it does to Europeans, I was fairly certain it was a random psycho.

    At the same time, lets not pretend that at least some point yesterday, each and every one of us didn’t consider the strong possibility that it was a terrorist attack.

    But now that it is revealed that it was a random psycho, it is in very poor form that JihadWatch and LGF are not posting retractions and apologies.

  2. “At the same time, lets not pretend that at least some point yesterday, each and every one of us didn’t consider the strong possibility that it was a terrorist attack.”

    I didn’t. Not even once, as it just sounded like another Columbine-style shooting spree to me.

    Jordan, I gotta say that Jihadwatch, LGF, etc are no different than the people who blame everything on the Jews. If this doesn’t convince, you, not sure what would.

  3. Oh, I checked out the LGF comments and it’s already included some anti-black comments and people just straight up saying that it WAS a Muslim, and was only being called “Asian” for PC reasons.

    Honestly, these people are no better than anti-semitic conspiracy nuts like Shaukat and Dr.M

  4. Yeah, these types have just as many conspiracy theories as the Muslim nutters. I have been reading that the guy really was a Muslim, he is being used as a scape-goat for the real killer, ect.

    Supposedly there is some letter than people are claiming he wrote that talks about moral issues with the USA. Also, supposedly, he had “Ishmael Axe” written on his arm in red marker.

    Ishmael being the father of Arabs/Muslims. They are claiming this shows he was acting in the name of Islam.

  5. DA, I would agree with you that many of the anonymous commentators on those sites fit that description. They are vile, and hateful, and often completely nuts. I rarely bother to read them.

    But I was honestly suprised that the people who run the sites posted their belief that it was a terrorist attack prior to any knowledge. While we can disagree on their conclusions to world events, their postings are usually based on news headlines rather than consperacy theories. (granted, selective news)

    That is why I was shocked to see their pre-emptive alligations, and dissapointed they are not printing a retraction. When they do this sh*t they open themselves up to alligations of being consperacy nuts and its their own damn fault.

    I still view these sites as the conservative version of Michael Moore. They do not necessarily lie, they just don’t bother to tell the whole truth.

  6. But now that it is revealed that it was a random psycho, it is in very poor form that JihadWatch and LGF are not posting retractions and apologies.

    Jordan, these people won’t retract their statements because they aren’t primarily interested in finding the truth. These people are bigots who are attempting to find justifications for hate filled conclusions they’ve already come to.

    These people are the same no matter who they are blaming. They have a conclusion (in this case, Muslims are inherently violent) and need to find evidence to back up such a claim. As soon as the shooting happened they saw an opportunity to prop up their flimsy ideology.

    An excellent litmus test for bigots is the ability to admit mistakes. I would argue that somebody who said “shit, was that another terrorist attack?” and says “I was wrong, sorry” afterwards is not the same as somebody immediately rushing to blame Muslims. Mixed in with people attempting to address the real issues, or honestly wondering if this was a terrorist attack (i never thought it was, looked like another psycho rampage at a school to me) are racists. Plain and simple.

    We all know there is muslim violence around the world. The posts on this site clearly illustrated how bigots and white nationalists have latched onto an existing problem we all know about to further their racist agenda.

    I think it kind of mirrors the Palestinian issue. Here you have an issue that needs resolving (Palestinian statelessness) being latched onto by bigots and people who seek to blame jews for everything to further their racist agenda, instead of constructively addressing the issue at hand.

    Bigots are the same wherever you find them, whatever their cause may be. Kudos on Umar Lee for bringing these people out and putting them on display. We have to expose these people for what they are whoever they may be targeting, because one day they may turn on you.

    First they came for the Jews
    and I did not speak out
    because I was not a Jew.

    Then they came for the Communists
    and I did not speak out
    because I was not a Communist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists
    and I did not speak out
    because I was not a trade unionist.

    Then they came for me
    and there was no one left
    to speak out for me.

    Pastor Martin Niemöller

  7. Jordan wrote:
    “But I was honestly suprised that the people who run the sites posted their belief that it was a terrorist attack prior to any knowledge. ”

    @ Jordan,

    Honestly, how does the mere posting of the story of the VTech massacre at jihadwatch and lgf, for I made damn sure to read both postings, constitute a predetermined belief by the site administrators?

    Since I can’t link, I will for example, cut and paste the posting from Robert at Jihad Watch:
    ————————————————————-

    Virginia Tech shootings: “no immediate evidence to suggest it was a terrorist attack”
    “But all avenues will be explored.”

    From “Virginia Tech Campus Reels From Shooting That Leaves at Least 32 Dead,” by Liza Porteus for FoxNews:

    The FBI joined police on the scene to investigate. Agency spokesman Richard Kolko in Washington said there was no immediate evidence to suggest it was a terrorist attack, “but all avenues will be explored.”
    Senior official with the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives told FOX News that agency’s response to the Virginia Tech incident was “immediate,” and the bureau is making all of its local and national resources, including its crimes lab, available to the Virginia State Police.

    The name of the killer has still not been released.

    Posted by Robert at 04:52 PM
    —————————————————————-

    I ask you directly Jordan, what part of that posting do you think warrants a retraction?

    Umar never misses an opportunity to point out Robert Spencer, but at least he kept his references to a few assumptive posts from the jihadwatch community. Read them again. They weren’t particularly vitriolic, just skeptical. Skeptical of the MSM, primarily, but without a doubt, skeptical of Islam.

  8. Umar wrote:
    “A few comments at Robert’s place after his implication that it was a Muslim:”

    Upon fiurther inspection, Umar attributes it directly to Robert as well. That is just not true.

  9. @“Awake,” go back to sleep.

    speaking of being skeptical and reading posts closely, let’s review a few from you:

    “Why hasn’t a single powerful voice in the Islamic world publically undertaken the task of educating Muslims that what they do is wrong and frowned upon in the eyes of Allah? It is not us infidels who need to understand, it is the unknown number of Muslims who can commit violence in the name of Allah at any time, regardless of whether they know are practicing Islam correctly.”

    response: [ after a long list of links condemning terrorism, next post ] Neither “awake” nor any of the others, and from LGF’s comments section, which I’ve been aware of since it got up and going after 9/11, are interested in hearing from muslim critics of terrorism. You could post Alan Godlas’ page of compiled muslim criticism of 9/11, Osama, and terrorism, but they’ll still say muslims don’t condemn terrorism.

    Awake again: @ dawud, Thanks for the links. It will take some time, but will research them extensively.
    Regards.

    @Awake: Yo, you have time to read. Please confirm what you’re saying, or shove off back to primary school. You could a) admit you were wrong in the first place which would make your b) concern with Umar’s not addressing attribution seem, well, hypocritical or at least an indication of your laziness or c) just deny that you have anything to do with LGF or Robert or any of the vileness Umar’s had to put up with, and pretend that some of that s*** doesn’t stick to you.

    Which one will it be?

  10. As-Salaamu ‘alaikum,

    The guy has been identified as Cho Seung-hui, from South Korea.

    I read the JW/LGF crap as well and wasn’t surprised that they tried to blame Muslims. Attempts were made on LGF to blame Muslims for the Buncefield oil depot fire of 2005, which killed nobody (only because it happened on a Sunday morning when the people who work nearby were not there) but caused a lot of damage. The give-away here that the murderer was not a Muslim (or, at least, that it was not an “Islamic” terrorist attack) was that he shot himself. It’s not like a suicide bombing when the intention is to kill others or cause damage, not for the bomber to kill him- or herself.

  11. @ Dawud,

    I did thank you for the links. I have been reading through Godlas’ compilation list. I will try to finish expeditiously as to not draw your ire again.

    As far as my first post that you referenced, I still stand by it. Most voices that are ever heard in the MSM that speak out about Islam are quite frankly, usually apostates. There is some validity to the fact that the MSM does not allow critical voices from the Islamic community to be heard. That just basically supports my condemnation of the MSM itself. Only the inane would suggest that the entire world population of Muslims condone jihad against infidels. The fact is that most do not condone it. That being said, there are numerous examples of those who do commit violence in Allah’s name. The condemnations that Godlas has compiled is noted, but it appears that these voices are not powerful enough to offset the jihad we see and hear about every day, the jihad that is mandated in the Qur’an and misinterpreted by many in the Muslim world.

    As far as my original thanks for the Godlas link, I am not quite sure why that has upset you. The three choices that you offered me to cop to are quite confusing, so I am going to ask for a little clarification there, if you will.

    Back to my comment to jordan, I was merely correcting her claim that Spencer presumptively accused the VTech shooter as being a Muslim, which he clearly did not. After further review, I noticed that Umar made that same assumption. It is these inaccuracies that spread quickly into baseless slander. It is no secret that I am part of the jihadwatch community and I agree with what Robert Spencer is doing. So what?

    If we cannot agree that what Robert posted on his site related to the VTech shooting was in no shape or form equivalent to pre-judging the shooter as a Muslim, then how can respectful discourse ever be achieved here? Name-calling rarely, if ever works in changing one’s mind. Please re-read EXACTLY what Robert posted on the subject, which I provided above. Where do you get the impression that he even mildly alluded that the shooter was a Muslim?

    The post, besides being the biggest news item in the world yesterday, was an obvious shot at the MSM and authorities who are quick to deny any connection to terrorism, even before they know the perpetrator’s identity. Surely you tempered your anger long enough to realize that, right?

  12. @ awake

    Clearly the very short passage that JihadWatch chose to reproduce along with the title “no immediate evidence to suggest it was a terrorist attack” and comment “The name of the killer has still not been released.” is implying that he believed something was up.

    @ BoozePenguin

    I agree with you that these sites start with their own conclusions and work backwards, but how is that any different than any other ideological site? And yes, I agree with you that the ability to apologize is an excellent litmus test, which is why I was so surprised a retraction hasn’t been posted. I know I have seen LGF apologize in the past (can’t remember one for JihadWatch) and I expected one this time.

    But based on the site’s authors, and NOT its idiot anonymous posters, I am not prepared to say LGF or JihadWatch is a white-supremacy bigot group any more than DailyKos or HuffPo is anti-Jew.

    I would never judge Umar Lee based on DrM or Black Lion’s comments. We have to give same benefit of the doubt to them.

  13. Jordan

    Ahh I see what you are saying. I agree with you. I think LGF is an ideological site. My point was that ideological sites, or any site that works backward from a conclusion provides ample opportunity for bigots to mix in with well meaning people who hold firm opinions, because they offer justification for their preconceived notions, often notions that don’t address the complexities of the issues at hand.

    It’s why i disapprove of sites like that and in general attempt to stay away from groups that work back from a conclusion.

    But yeah, i don’t think LGF or even jihad watch is a white nationalist group, i’m suggesting that they provide ample opportunity for these undesirable types to latch onto their opinion.

    I would have expected some attempts to distance themselves from the white nationalists that spammed this forum. It seems like the polite thing to do in that kind of a situation.

  14. BoozePenguin, I think we generally see eye-to-eye.

    I am taking a look at your website right now, you have some very impressive thought-provoking posts. And of course, it’s always nice to talk to a fellow Canuck! :)

    Getting back to this incident, now the debate has shift to gun-control. Being a Canadian, it is no surprise I am not big on citizens owning concealed hand-guns.

    My worry is that if this incident is what pushes legislators for tighter gun-control, it will be thrown back in their faces at the next horrible mass-murder.

    Any law made to accommodate the exception to the rule will hurt more than helps.

    The 100 American gun-related murders that took place yesterday are a far better reason to push for tighter laws.

    It should also be pointed out that Britains new gun control laws have done nothing to curb crime. It seems that a culture leads to laws rather than the other way around. Americans have to make a conscience decision to shun hand-guns, thug-life, and gang glorification and effective laws will follow.

  15. Jordan wrote:
    “Clearly the very short passage that JihadWatch chose to reproduce along with the title “no immediate evidence to suggest it was a terrorist attack” and comment “The name of the killer has still not been released.” is implying that he believed something was up.”

    Disagreed. the quote from the FBI guy that “no immediate evidence to suggest it was a terrorist attack”, was just that, a quote. The fact that the name of the killer had not yet been released, was simply a fact.

    A common theme on jihadwatch is the obfuscation of the truth by the MSM. That was implied by Robert. Stating that Robert presumed that the shooter was a Muslim by his choice of article editing, is merely projection.

  16. Jordan: “At the same time, lets not pretend that at least some point yesterday, each and every one of us didn’t consider the strong possibility that it was a terrorist attack.”

    Jordan, this is more of a reflection on you, and your LGF kindred, than any supposed “us” that you wish to address.

    Oooh, hay. Turns out he scrawled “Ismail Ax” on his arm, and he lived next door to a Muslim in Centreville, and his family came in to the country via Detroit!!!

    Booga-booga!

  17. @Dariush

    I fully 100% admit it.

    To ask people to be so suffocated by political correctness to not even consider the possibility of terrorism is an unreasonable request. Just as unreasonable as believing all crimes are terrorists acts until proven otherwise.

    As far as your “LGF kindred” comment, give me a break. I think I have criticized the comments section on LGF enough to avoid that cheap shot.

    There is this mentality that the world would be a better place if we shut down LGF and/or DailyKos. I disagree. Both sides must be represented to reach balance.

    @ awake

    That is exactly my point. JihadWatch often mocks European press for the using the words “Youth” when referring to Muslim violence. By using the same mockery techniques on this occasion, Robert is implying this was a terrorist attack with religious convictions. It wasn’t. At the very least, Robert should clarify.

  18. “To ask people to be so suffocated by political correctness to not even consider the possibility of terrorism is an unreasonable request.”

    You have got to be kidding. You, of all people, feel “stifled by political correctness?” All one has to do is mention a name like “William Kristol” in a negative light, for you to let out a high-pitched, shrill, nasally whine about “anti-semitism.”

    I should also point out the obvious meaning of that sentence you penned. Namely that because the shooter was not Muslim, the act cannot be defined as “terrorism.” And vice versa.

    You really are a piece of work.

  19. @ Dariush

    Considering I don’t even read or talk about “William Kristol”, I will have to disagree… although I promise to do it in a high-pitched, shrill, nasally whiny way.

    And why is it necessary to be so hostile Dariush? Can’t we disagree without having to be at each other’s throats?

  20. Actually, you did when I brought him up. I can’t remember the context, but I posted a list of names of people that I thought were guilty of war crimes and crimes against humanity, and who should be arrested and tried as such. Among them were “journalists” whose writings and media appearances are at least as inflammatory and deceitful as anything put forth by Julius Streicher or certain Rwandans who are currently serving out long prison terms for hate radio broadcasts.

    You latched on to my inclusion of “Jewish journalists” (namely Kristol and Krauthammer) in that list, to the exclusion of everything else.

    “And why is it necessary to be so hostile Dariush? Can’t we disagree without having to be at each other’s throats?”

    Frankly, after having read so many of your posts, I can only wonder at the lack of hostility offered you by so many here.

    I can certainly disagree with people without being disagreeable. I can’t, however, do so with someone who feels that Muslims are an existential threat to his kind.

    This is about as polite and “agreeable” as it gets.

  21. Boban

    The jew journalist have an agenda, while the white journalist are just jerk-off lemmings, like this white guy kidnapped Gaza by arab muslims.

    I think what you meant to say was: “The jew journalist have an agenda, while the white journalist are just jerk-off lemmings. A solid example of this is Alan Johnson, an English reporter recently kidnapped in the Gaza Strip.” The way you structured that statement made you look a bit like a dumbass.

    Now, may I ask why you say Jew journalists have an agenda and what agenda that specifically is? What percentage of White journalists do you think are “jerk off lemmings” and where did you draw this conclusion from? Did you research this subject yourself by interviewing “jerk off lemming” journalists, or did you pull this wild conclusion out of your ass?

    This stupid ass gets himself involved in a conflict that has nothing to do with him

    That’s generally the idea behind international reporting. You know, reporting on conflicts and current events internationally, as in away from Britain. While this reporter may not have been personally involved in the conflict there are many british jews and muslims who do have personal connections to the conflict that he was informing.

    it is like the white lemming liberals who worry about negroes starving in africa, who hate their guts, while their own nations are falling apart

    You’re going to have to structure this train wreck of a sentence in a slightly more coherent fashion. Who hates who’s guts? What nation is it specifically that is falling apart, and what evidence do you present to suggest this destruction of western civilization can be attributed to “white lemming liberals who worry about negroes starving in africa”?

  22. jordan wrote:
    @ awake

    “That is exactly my point. JihadWatch often mocks European press for the using the words “Youth” when referring to Muslim violence. By using the same mockery techniques on this occasion, Robert is implying this was a terrorist attack with religious convictions. It wasn’t. At the very least, Robert should clarify.”

    So Robert is a European pressaphobic?, or he merely points out that disingenuine reporting found in Europe is creeping, no actually, vaulting into the US media? Should Islamic “youths”, demographically and historically, relatively new to France, coupled with the marked increase in rioting in that country, be simply identified as “youths”, with no mention of their religious ideology, as is commonplace in the European MSM, or not. Your answer to that question will tell me all I need to know.

    Take a break from your position as the resident “useful idiot” here on this scarce and infrequently visited blog, and venture out. Unfortunately, your affiction of being a Jew will win you few points here.

    Anyway, as another s-p-e-c-i-f-i-c example to support Robert’s position, is the clarification by him that you requested.

    http://www.jihadwatch.org/archives/016100.php#comments

  23. @ BoozePenguin,

    I disagree with almost all you have to say, with you being, not pro-Islamist per se, but at least anti, anti-Islamist, without a true qualifier, but I must admit, your obliteration of Boban, was thorough and I for one, enjoy the intelligence displayed in your last rebuttal post.

    A train-wreck indeed, he is. Your services however, would best be served elsewhere, where a signifigant amount of people actually read and post. And the moniker, what can I say…it’s a keeper.

    Regards.

  24. @ awake

    I agree with Roberts position on the absurdity of the European media’s political correctness and cowardness. BBC is becoming as idiological driven as Fox News.

    I just don’t think it was appropriate to apply those standards to this case.

    @ Dariush

    Dariush, if we can’t engage in polite debate, how about we agree just to avoid each other’s postings. Deal?

  25. Regarding Cheesy White Boy’s “comment” to Jordan.

    I take it that this is the type of political discourse encouraged here, probably to be blamed on lgf and jihadwatch somehow.

    Anyway, since my new post on another thread was and continues to be blocked, I will take the hint. Good luck to you all, especially you jordan, you are going to need it here.

    I want to offer a special shout out to The Sphinx. It was a pleasure conversing with you.

    Peace

  26. The problem with the term “youths” is that an automatic assumption is made that all of these are Muslim. This is not the case.

    Many of the people involved with this come from very poor Christian African backgrounds. This has more to do with social-economic issues than religion, but that fact does get in the way of what the Islamophobes think.

    I have spent time in and around some of these ghettos. They are a mixed bag of North African Muslim immigrants and Christian African immigrants. The same goes for the rioters.

  27. Amerika Erwache: “Anyway, since my new post on another thread was and continues to be blocked, I will take the hint. Good luck to you all, especially you jordan, you are going to need it here.”

    Yes, and good luck to you too kamerad. Here’s hoping that the party continues to grow as people awaken to the growing threat of subhumanity against western civilization.

    And don’t forget to check under your bed every night. You never know where those crafty turrists could be hiding.

    Why is it that certain people can’t just pack their sh*t up and leave? Why do they feel the need to make some sort of big, drama queen exit?

  28. Hahaha…

    Oh, man. I disagree with Umar on all sorts of things, but anyone who calls him an “arab worshipper” just has no clue what he’s talking about.

  29. Posted “Amerika Erwache”

    To those of you who dont speak German this means “America Awake”. It is a play on the Nazi slogon “Deutschland Erwache” meaning “Germany Awake.”

  30. Exactly which one of your posts has he deleted? So far, I have yet to see a single one of your posts be taken down. I mean you’re sitting here hurling personal insults and racial insults pretty much non-stop.

    He seems to have taken pretty much a hands-off, laid back attitude with regards to you, if you ask me.

    Besides, this isn’t a public forum. It’s a personal blog. He can pretty much delete any post for any reason he wants. But, like I said, he hasn’t yet done that to you, despite all of your abuse and vitriol, so I don’t know what you’re complaining about.

  31. Boban bitches and awake whines; but they have more posts here than are left when muslims answer back on LGF or Spencer’s blog;

    Why has he deleted your posts, Boban: let’s look at the ones you leave, where you talk about n*****rs, Arabs, Jews, and leave no racial or sexual slur untouched. Was education important in your family, or was that left to classes at the local Klansclub?

    Awake, please stop bitching and get a life. If you want to whine, find the time to think and put a few thoughts together, and please explain why you have nothing to do with LGF and Robert Spencer, but defend them and follow them all over the ‘net, and then when Jordan calls your affiliates running dogs and racists, you call him ‘useful idiot’ – oh, so you really don’t have anything to do with the racist morons on here? Please stop telling us how muslims have to distance themselves from terrorism (when we’ve already demonstrated that they do) while you can’t distance yourselves from your ‘fellow travelers.’

    Thank God there are better things in life than blog comments, but I doubt you know of those…

  32. @ Dariush,

    I got an e-mail from Umar saying he didn;t block my post, that it probably got caught in his spam filter. Maybe I will hang around for awehile. besides you have like 12 people commenting here, tops.

    I am glad that cheesy’s post got deleted. I expect more of Boban’s to be wiped as well.

    @ Dawud,
    Your statement that, “Boban bitches and awake whines; but they have more posts here than are left when muslims answer back on LGF or Spencer’s blog;”, does not ring true. I don’t post at lgf, but I do quite a bit at jihadwatch. There are plenty of Muslims posting there with regularity. Some people have been doing so for years.

    You really got to get over yourself. I made one statement that there is no single powerful voice compelling change in the Islamic community with regards to the legitimacy of jihad against infidels and you lost it. I thanked you for Godlas’ compilation, but the demonstration you have provided falls short. I will explain why in a second but first I would like to explain to you what is required if one is to be taken seriously.

    “Boban bitches and awake whines; but they have more posts here than are left when muslims answer back on LGF or Spencer’s blog;”

    Not true. Prove it if you can.

    “and please explain why you have nothing to do with LGF and Robert Spencer, but defend them and follow them all over the ‘net,”

    categorically untrue. I never said I had nothing to do with Spencer, just lgf. I only have a few posts here, you should know that.

    “and then when Jordan calls your affiliates running dogs and racists, you call him ‘useful idiot’”

    Where did he say that? Has your own mental projection become your reality?

    Honestly, if you can’t accurately state facts about what people said, in a very small area of posted information, what possible purpose can you serve to anyone?

    Here are a few thoughts, at your behest:

    What are your opinions on the recent secular Islamic summit in St. Petersburg Florida?.

    What’s your opinion on the pending flying Imam’s case, particularly naming John Doe’s in the suit?

    Do you believe that Muslim cabbies have a right to refuse passengers based on conflicts of their religion?

    Please give your best example of a “moderate” Muslim, who openly, publicly and most importantly, consistently denounces violent jihad against the unbelievers?

    Were the 9/11 hijackers operating in the name of Islam, Islamic heretics or not involved at all and blamed only as a conspiracy by the US government and the Jews?

    Why don’t we start there…..

  33. I believe Erwache is talking about the recent atheist summit in Flordia, highlighted by voices of moderation and reason like Glenn Beck, which featured such notable Islamic scholars as Irshad Manji.

    Isn’t that right, kamerad?

  34. @ awake

    I think you are making a mistake leaving Umar Lee’s blog. Yes, there are a few people here who rather focus on vilifying some one’s character than addressing their arguments. But for the most part, people here are passionate about their beliefs and eager to politely defend them.

    You are clearly a keen debater and able to hold your own. Umar Lee shares the same qualities. I hope you two will continue to publicly debate.

  35. @ jordan,

    I’ll stay awhile. There are a few here in totality, but Dariush and Dawood, with their name-calling first and the substantiation of their positions, well, way down on their list of priorities.

    @ Dariush,

    At least you offhandedly responded to a question I had.I agree that there were several apostates there, like Wafa Sultan. Were there no Muslims there at all, or at least none that you would consider worthy of speaking? The fact that Glenn Beck covered the summit smeans absolutely nothing.

    Who would you have liked to see at the summit, or were you against the summit entirely?

    While we are at it, why don’t you answer the question of whether you believe that violent jihad is warranted against unbelievers, or are those who commit violence in the name of Allah merely Islamic heretics?

    I asked several questions, please fell free to jump in on any of them at any time, if you dare of course.

    Or maybe that is not your thing. Maybe you’d rather just name call because you don’t really have anything worthwhile to say. Maybe your sole purpose here is to provide direct support for clowns like cheesy white boy, by echoing his sentiment of calling jordan a Zionist f***wad, like he did before Umar thankfully wiped it.

    In my experience, debating Islamists is relatively easy. That stems from the fact that the face of Islam that one attempts to portray, is a losing position.

    Looking forward to it.

  36. And another thing Dariush. What’s up with the German references of me? Are you calling me a nazi? Based on what? Supported by what, exactly?

    Someone insults jordan and the jews, you echo the sentiment and I am the nazi? That is some bizarre irony there, now isn’t it.

  37. Erwache: “In my experience, debating Islamists is relatively easy. That stems from the fact that the face of Islam that one attempts to portray, is a losing position.”

    Perhaps if I was the product of an enlightened culture, the above fabulously constructed sentence might make some sense to me. Then again, probably not.

    Erwache: “Someone insults jordan and the jews”

    CWB did insult Jordan, but not “the Jews”. If you wish to conflate Jordan with “the Jews”, that’s your problem, not mine. And if you think that “zionist fu**tard” is the equivalent of “the Jews”, again your problem, not mine.

    Here’s something that might help your ability to tell the two apart.

    (YouTube might be temporarily down)

  38. Wow, I have zero clue what this “debate” is about or what you all are arguing about. Do you all even know what you’re arguing about anymore? Seriously. Based on the above comments from this “debate” as well as previous ones by the following individuals I think we can conclude the following:

    A. Jordan and Awake are extremely sensitive to any perceived “antisemitism”. Anytime large numbers of people are killed in the US (or anywhere in the world for that matter) they think “Heavens no! Not those terroristy muslims again!”

    B. Dariush has issues with white people who disagree with him. Anyone who does is compared to the German propoganda machines, rednecks, crackers, or peckerwoods (in the case of DA who is also a muslim, but I guess that doesn’t matter). And we must not forget the Zionists. The scourge of the earth.

    Great discussion guys. Seriously, kudos to you all. You have greatly enlightened me with your brilliance.

  39. @ a.m.

    I agree. There really is no debate here. I ask questions and receive no answers. By the way, I am in no way overly sensitive to perceived anti-semitism. Dariush would rather drop links to supposedly refute my posts rather than use his own words. He remains conspicuously silent on anything thatI try to initiate. He is now going to school me on the difference between a Jew and a Zionist, yawwwwwwwwnnnnn, once again, with a link.

    As Clint said in Magnum Force: “A man has got to know his limitations”.

    Think I’ll stick to reading Umar’s posts. At least he has something to say.

    Regards,

    Erwache

  40. awake,

    this is not my blog, that is attached. Nor is anyone here obliged to answer your questions and make you feel comfortable.

    you are the one who complains that we don’t answer your questions: Why do you identify Islam and muslims with extremists, but not yourself with Boban and your trash-talking pals who’ve posted here?

    I lost a muslim friend on 9/11, who died in the WTC, on the 95th floor of building 1 [ http://www.september11victims.com/september11victims/VictimInfo.asp?ID=2448 ] – I have a muslim friend who joined the US Navy, and was slaughtered in his bed at the dorm, and there has never been a public inquiry – an Afghan woman, who I know through friends, was shot in the back of her head while walking in the streets of San Francisco.

    Why, when I have nothing to do with the perpetrators of terror, but know several of the victims – personally – it’s me who has to play your ‘Islamist’ when I have nothing to do with them?

    awake: In my experience, debating Islamists is relatively easy. That stems from the fact that the face of Islam that one attempts to portray, is a losing position.

    Do you imagine that Dariush or the rest of us here are defending Islamists or the people who slaughter innocents in Algeria or Casablanca or Baghdad? Why?

    Let me ask some non-sequituurs of my own: why do you stand with the rapists who murdered the 13-year-old Abeer? or the torturers in Abu Ghraib?

    Get a life.

  41. 33 people are dead, and the right and left wing are trying to manipulate their deaths for their own political purposes. Disgusting.
    I don’t understand why my comment was deleted. I challenge anyone here to show me how calling Jordan a zionist f**ktard is an attack on Jews. I will refrain from swearing in the future but the guy is a hypocritical a**hole, and its about time someone called him out on his bulls**t.

  42. Well said dawud and CWB.

    Erwache: “Dariush would rather drop links to supposedly refute my posts rather than use his own words.”

    Oh wise and wonderful sahib. One would think that you of all people, whose wit and wisdom graces the pages of blogs with untold numbers of readers and participants, would have learned by now that linking is the internet equivalent of footnoting. A means of providing evidence for one’s assertions.

    Surely, you never enter into an intense intellectual argument on Islamic theology without your copy of “The Politically Incorrect Guide to Islam and the Crusades” handy for reference, do you?

    “I agree. There really is no debate here. I ask questions and receive no answers…. He remains conspicuously silent on anything thatI try to initiate.”

    What exactly is it that you’re trying to “initiate” here, sahib? What questions do you want answered?

    Surely you can’t be serious when you ask for the opinion of Muslims on the recent “Middle Eastern atheists and Maronites united for regime change and subjugation” convocation in Florida, can you?

    What exactly does your lordship want us to think about a conference whose star participants include:

    — A woman who genuinely believes that she comes from a culture that is “backwards,” “primitive,” “barbaric,” “irrational” and “ignorant.” (Wafa Sultan)

    — A militant lesbian and atheist who manages to make a pilgrimage (there really is no other word for it) to Israel in June and July of 2002, heaping praise on everything in the society, without once mentioning what was going on in Jenin and the West Bank. (Irshad Manji)

    — And a lifelong charlatan who has managed to reinvent himself as a “terrorism expert”, but who is, and always has been, a high-ranking member of the Guardians of the Cedar militia, a breakaway faction of the Maronite fascist Kataeb (“Phalange”) movement which traces its roots directly to Mussolini and D’Annunzio. (Walid Phares)

    What do I think of this taghuti gathering? Is that what you are asking me? Would it be impolite at this point for me suggest to you that you go have intercourse with yourself?

    Do you really seek an honest opinion? Or merely validation for your own innate sense of superiority, concurrent with your sense of victimhood in the face of the overwhelming onslaught of the barbaric footsoldiers of the global caliphate?

    Believe me when I tell that I am not the least bit interested in “debating” you or your kind. Been there, done that, got the t-shirt. There is nothing to gain, and precious time to lose. The only thing you are worthy of is ridicule, scorn and derision.

    If Umar actually wishes to “debate” you, well that’s his business. Although, personally, I agree with him one-hundred percent:

    “As Muslims we can give them Dawah but other than that we can only expect hatred, prison and murder from this crowd and this is the crowd that overwhelmingly controls the military, law-enforcement and now controls all branches of government. Unlike what many on the left will tell you, that if these people read and studied they would change, these people will not change for all the money in the world. They are what they are and they fully realize it and they will not change or open up, they will only get worse, and it is up to the masses of the world’s people and the Muslim ummah to make sure they do not succeed.”

  43. Erwache: “Please give your best example of a “moderate” Muslim, who openly, publicly and most importantly, consistently denounces violent jihad against the unbelievers?”

    Just once I would like to see a “moderate” American politician or pundit openly and consistently denounce (just to give one example) the use of chemical and biological weapons against civilian population centers.

  44. Just so we are clear, its great to be a Jew. But if you pray facing Jerusalem you are evil.

    I hate to tell you this Daruish, but the VAST majority (+90%) of Jews have done at least one of the following…

    a. Been to Israel
    b. Hold Israeli savings bonds
    c. Believe Israel has the right to exist without fear of suicide bombers or being driven into the sea.
    d. Believe the Jewish culture and Hebrew language is as worth protecting as any other culture and language

    Yes there are always a bunch of Jews on the extreme left or right who will go to a Holocaust denial conference in Iran to show how much they want Israel destroyed, but we can’t stand those nut-bars.

    When people say “I love Jews, hate Zionists”, they really have a problem with Jews. AND THAT IS OK!! I think people should be allowed to criticize the three pillars of Judaism (G-d, Torah, Israel), as long as it is factual and proportional to other religions/cultures. For example, if you pray three times a day to the infidel-free city of Mecca, you probably lose your right to call Israel an “apartheid”. And so on.

    Dariush, your going to have to accept the fact that Jews have a strong connection to Israel, just as Muslims have with Mecca, Catholics to the Vatican, and etc..

  45. Jordan writes “When people say “I love Jews, hate Zionists”, they really have a problem with Jews. ”

    Not is NOT true. Not all Jews support Israel.

    I have no issue with Jews. I have stated consistantly that Jews are our brothers and sisters. In my personal life I have about as many Jewish friends as I have Muslim friends, and much more than my Christian friends.

    I have no problem with Judaism, I respect it as the great religion it is. I have no issue with Jews, I realise that without Jews much of what I value on a day to day basis would not exist.

    I do have a problem with the theory and the practical application of Zionism.

    Saying that because you hate Zionism means you hate Jews is like saying because you hated Apartheid that you hate white, white South Africans or Dutch Boers. It just doesnt hold water Jordan.

    I hate Nazis, I dont hate Germans. I hate the British royal family, but I absolutely love Brits. I hate Loyalists, but find Irish Protestants to be great people.

    Zionism is a POLITICAL philosophy, it is NOT a race of people.

  46. Abu Sinan, your idea that Jews hate Israel as much as Muslims do is not true.

    You have to believe me that at least 90% of Jews do support Israel’s right to exist. I have been to many synogogues, some reform, some conservative, etc.. I have never seen one that does not include information on trips to Israel, picture of Israel, etc..

    As I am sure you know, the three tenants of Judiasm are G-d, Torah, and Israel and that hasn’t changed for thousands of years. Every year during Passover, we end with the phrase “Next year in Jerusalem”.

    I cannot understand why Islam should be allowed to have a special relationship with a piece of land but when Jews do it, they are racist.

    And again, I object your constant comparisons to South Africa. Israel has a million Muslim citizens, Saudi Arabia, home of the holiest places in Islam, will not allow non-Muslims to even build one single church or even carry around a bible.

    When Mecca post signs saying “No non-Muslims allowed”, how can you critisise Israel?

    I am not saying you cannot critizise Israel. OF COURSE YOU CAN! But you cannot hold Jews to a higher standards than people of your own faith. When the Islamic world treats its religious minorities so horrobly, and Israel has beautiful Bahai temples, you are not being fair. And I think you know it.

    Israel is far from perfect. But I just wish the Islamic world was as focused in cleaning up their own mess as they were in obsessing over Israel.

  47. “When the Islamic world treats its religious minorities so horrobly, and Israel has beautiful Bahai temples, you are not being fair. And I think you know it.”

    Let’s just pretend that Palestinian Muslims and Christians don’t exist for a moment.

    Jordan, could you please explain the meaning of the term “Kushi”, for me?

    Also, where exactly in Israel are these “Kushis” allowed to build their homes and live?

  48. “Israel has a million Muslim citizens, Saudi Arabia, home of the holiest places in Islam, will not allow non-Muslims to even build one single church or even carry around a bible.”

    You’re equating the policies of the ibn Saud crime family and the long-bearded wahhabi anjass with the entirety of the Muslim ummah. That would be like me equating Jews as a whole with the words and deeds of Baruch Goldstein, Meir Kahane, Dennis Prager and Marty Peretz.

  49. @ Dariush

    Regarding Israel’s black population, Israel (with America’s help) secretly air-lifted thousands of Euthopian Jews so they can live free in Israel. Once in Israel, millions are spent to teach hebrew, the general culture, etc.. And yes, there are a few cultural differences (ie, polygomy, etc..) but overall, it was a remarkable intervention to save thousands of Black Africans from religious persucution.

    What you try to use as a some sort of disgrace is a source of pride for Israel. It is not perfect, but the effort to help thousands of people was noble.

    Incedently, do you think the Arab League will ever get off its ass to stop the killing and raping of millions of Black Sudanese? Do Muslim lives count when they are killed by other Muslims?

  50. Jordan, do they ever dump Ethiopian blood out from hospitals shouting “Cushite! Unclean!” or am I just hallucinating?

    You are whitewashing, and I happen to know that. I watched a documentary on Ethiopia’s religious and social history, where he visited the ‘Falasha’ community, and one was asked why, as a Jew, he didn’t want to live in Israel: his answer: “Why would I want to live where we’re not welcome as black people?”

    Please, there may be many many hateful muslims out there who hate Jews blindly – I’m not one, nor will I defend the bigotry of CWB or Dr. M, but you are definitely ignoring the reality of Israeli bigotry against Palestinians and Ethiopians – I don’t care for the Arab dictators and pissant ‘banana republics’ that make up most of the “muslim countries,” but you blindly defend Israel, and you must know that, as Dariush wrote above, Baruch Goldstein, Meir Kahane, Dennis Prager and Marty Peretz are criminals to every bit the same degree as Haniya, Arafat, or Mubarek or Abdullah.

  51. @ Dawud,

    Would it have been better for “Operation Moses” never to have been conducted and Israel to have let the Euthopian Jews die out like the Islamic world is doing to the Sudaneze? If they did, they wouldn’t be exposed to accusations of racism. Really shows that no good deed goes unpunished.

    Is there racism in Israel? Yes! Of course there is. But how is that any different than any other country on earth? But to accuse Israel of racism when they did what no other nation on earth would do to help Jewish Euthopians shows what unfair standards Jews are expected to live by.

  52. dawud

    I should mention that I know you are not like those you mentioned, and I can admittingly be defensive. But just try to see it from the Jewish position. Israel is polled as the most hated country on earth. Countries where little girls are burned alive by acid have a better reputation than Israel.

    To hear Israel being labelled as racist against blacks specially when they have done so much to try to help Africans makes my head spin.

    And of course Israel has thugs. But Israel classified Kahane and Goldstein as terrorists and outlawed their racist party and rightly so. Hamas on the other hand, which calls for the killing of all the Jews until Judgement Day in their official charter, are the elected majority government. It’s not the same thing.

    Yes, racism is a problem and it must be addressed vigorously. But if the Jews burned down the YMCA, firebombed churches, took a dump in the Church of Nativity, officially executed gays, forbid the Bahais from worship, and told the Ethiopians “sorry, your too black for us to care”, the world would never shut-up about it.

    I hope this helps explain my outlook.

  53. Jordan, I’m sorry if you took what I wrote as an excuse for Iran or Syria or Jordan or Saudi or the rest of the miserable dictatorships and tyrannies that excuse themselves as ‘Islamic countries’ – but my point is that idiots who consider themselves muslim don’t have any exclusivity in being bigots.

    And certainly when there are murders in the West – just off the top of my head, I can think of a American muslim friend slaughtered in his barracks in the Navy, no inquiry – an Afghan muslim woman shot in the back of the head in San Francisco – the same weekend that Pim Fortuyn got killed in Holland and the press gave it massive coverage, an old Nazi (not a neo-Nazi, but a survival from the Vichy regime) walked into a muslim home in Brussels and machine-gunned the inhabitants to death. Add to personal knowledge, the footage of Palestinian children beaten to death by Israeli soldiers or pregnant women bleeding to death at checkpoints, Abu Ghraib, Gitmo, secret prisons all over Europe, Central Asia and the Arab world where people ‘disappear’ with the knowing complicity of European and American intelligence agencies – well, Western claims of moral superiority ring a little hollow.

    I would love to see Israel representing democracy and freedom, but too often I hear the argument: ‘We’re just a nation in the Middle East, surrounded by enemies. Why do you hold us to a higher standard than others?’ – Umm, because you also believe in God (or did) and because your ambassadors regularly declaim ‘We are a democracy’ and ‘a light unto the nations’

    On a side note, have you seen Promises?
    http://crazierthan.blogspot.com/2007/04/promises.html
    As I’ve participated in Jewish/Muslim dialogues, in light of that film, I’d appreciate your perceptions of it.

  54. dawud

    Here’s some other stuff you might like.

    You know, just out of the archive.

    http://crazierthan.blogspot.com/2006/11/frontline-football-bosnia-vs-serbia.html

    And

    http://crazierthan.blogspot.com/2006/12/anita-pratap-island-of-blood.html

    this ones a lecture about what lessons can be learned from the war in Sri Lanka, it’s about the dynamics of insurgent conflicts. Great stuff.

    And

    http://crazierthan.blogspot.com/2006/12/beslan.html

    And

    http://crazierthan.blogspot.com/2006/10/rabbi-dr-abraham-j-twerski.html

    This last one is like 45 minutes long, it’s a rabbi talking about drug addiction in the religious community. I find it applies for most communities, whether they are religious or not. The intro kinda sucks, the main speaker is 5 minutes in.

    That was off topic, i know, but you might really like that stuff. Just thought i’d put it out there.

  55. Sri Lanka getting mentioned is always interesting. The Tamil Tigers produce more suicide bombers than any other group on earth…But I have yet to see them on the news.

  56. DA

    Sri Lanka is also an interesting case study because it has all the elements of most insurgent conflicts (poverty, religious indoctrination, nationalist pride) and has been running for a long time. Both sides have made numerous mistakes that can be learnt from.

    BTW, i just checked out your blog. Looks great! i’ll be checking up on it for sure.

    Dawud

    Israel finds itself in a very, very difficult situation. Most Israeli’s want to end the occupation but don’t know how. The issue is that mixed in with the people looking for a 2 state solution are fundamentalist militants that are very clear – they don’t want Israel in the region at all, and since they have their own personal armies good luck getting them to go along with a 2 state solution.

    So Israeli’s say – if we give the 2 state solution people a nation now, the militias will run wild and the west bank will turn in to Lebanon 2.0, something Israel can’t accept when it’s major economic centers lie so close to the west bank.

    So the Palestinian’s say – we can’t reign anybody in without a nation. Although personally, i’m not confidant the killing will stop with a palestinian state because of the effects of religious indoctrination.

    In the Sri Lanka video she lectures about how religious leaders take a worthy cause, and for their own purposes indoctrinate the youth.

    And indoctrinated people are irrational, by definition.

    according to Princeton indoctrination is “teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically”.

    Being uncritical of your own side is not a recipe for progress, and i think the effects of indoctrinated hate of Israel will keep the conflict going for a very long time. And, say what you want about jews they really stress education and critical thought, it’s just a cultural thing. I saw promises for the first time at a jewish school, where we were told to take a side and debate with each other. We were encouraged to think critically and understand the palestinian view point. I think the Palestinians need to work on understand the Israeli motivation, because it’s not killing muslims or taking their land.

  57. DA

    Sri Lanka is also an interesting case study because it has all the elements of most insurgent conflicts (poverty, religious indoctrination, nationalist pride) and has been running for a long time. Both sides have made numerous mistakes that can be learnt from

    BTW, i just checked out your blog. Looks great! i’ll be checking up on it for sure.

    Dawud

    Israel finds itself in a very, very difficult situation. Most Israeli’s want to end the occupation but don’t know how. The issue is that mixed in with the people looking for a 2 state solution are fundamentalist militants that are very clear – they don’t want Israel in the region at all, and since they have their own personal armies good luck getting them to go along with a 2 state solution.

    So Israeli’s say – if we give the 2 state solution people a nation now, the militias will run wild and the west bank will turn in to Lebanon 2.0, something Israel can’t accept when it’s major economic centers lie so close to the west bank.

    So the Palestinian’s say – we can’t reign anybody in without a nation. Although personally, i’m not confidant the killing will stop with a palestinian state because of the effects of religious indoctrination.

    In the Sri Lanka video she lectures about how religious leaders take a worthy cause, and for their own purposes indoctrinate the youth.

    And indoctrinated people are irrational, by definition.

    according to Princeton indoctrination is “teaching someone to accept doctrines uncritically”.

    Being uncritical of your own side is not a recipe for progress, and i think the effects of indoctrinated hate of Israel will keep the conflict going for a very long time. And, say what you want about jews they really stress education and critical thought, it’s just a cultural thing. I saw promises for the first time at a jewish school, where we were told to take a side and debate with each other. We were encouraged to think critically and understand the palestinian view point. I think the Palestinians need to work on understand the Israeli motivation, because it’s not killing muslims or taking their land.

  58. ethnic nationalism is not a healthy substitute for the ‘religious nationalism’ of Hamas or Islamic Jihad, or the Marxist ideology of al-Fatah or the PFLP…

    I’ve heard that before from Israelis: “Yes we had terrorists, but Ben Gurion reigned them in.” – yes, after there was a state of Israel, and mostly by handing over the Army and select positions to those radicals he could give positions to. And he had the backing of America.

    I don’t hate Israelis and Jews, but I can understand that Palestinians who’ve never met a Jew who wasn’t a soldier and didn’t hurt or humiliate them – or didn’t experience that on a daily basis, and know that regardless of what some more liberal Israelis may care about, the settlers were armed and hated them just for breathing – I don’t know how that hatred can be appeased, other than granting them homes and at least some measure of justice.

    The Israeli policy towards keeping the Palestinians locked up in mile-long prisons is horrible, and while the Palestinians have horrible factions who do want to kill Israelis, the current policies only assist in recruitment and seem to have persuaded most Palestinians that Hamas is more interested in their well-being than al-Fatah (which does seem to sometimes go out of it’s way to be craven, corrupt, and serving of America and Israel, all of the accusations that Hamas accuses it of).

    The resolution? I don’t know, but I do know that 70% of both the Israeli and Palestinian populations are agreed that the basis for any peace agreement is ‘land for peace’ – the question is whether the militias or fanatics on either side are willing to draw down their rage and accept something less than their ideal vision of a nation, and recognize what most of the rest of us have, that the borders will eventually have to be drawn roughly along the ’67 borders and that peace with security is the only way out.

    as for Sri Lanka, I really don’t know, but there are people from the Tigers – a friend once lived with one of their leaders abroad, he told me how disturbing it was to be in the same home with a man who admitted to having killed more than 100 people – who have every bit the rage and insanity of the settlers/fanatics. And yet, at some point, people have to realize that entire generations have been lost to pointless and fruitless battles, and like the Europeans did with the EU agree not so much to disagree, but to stop being violently disagreeable.

  59. @ dawud

    I hear what you are saying and I take critism from you very seriously as you seem to be fair and good intentioned.

    Although I disagree with many of your positions, I do believe that if you were running the show, there would be peace tommorow.

    Good debating with you.

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