No problems here!

 

Denial (dĭ-nī’əl) is a defense mechanism in which a person is faced with a fact that is too painful to accept and rejects it instead, insisting that it is not true despite what may be overwhelming evidence

Some brothers have disparaged my rise and fall series as “exaggeration”, that I am unqualified to speak on this topic (my own experiences?? are THEY more qualified to speak on MY experiences?? Should I ask for a fax from overseas, from someone who has never lived in the US to explain MY experiences to me??) and even one implied that I was lying (the only lie is with those who know these things but prefer to keep it undercover in order to keep this dysfunctional culture alive) This is part of the culture of denial that has taken root in the Muslim community.

These people are trying to tell me that I have not seen what I have seen with my own eyes! They are trying to tell me that I have not seen people that I know personally whose lives have been destroyed. They are trying to tell me to fall into their groupthink and thought reform and toe the line and tell me that things are still pristine and that all these social problems that I have seen with my own eyes are a figment of my imagination.

They want to tell you that the sisters pawned off to lunatics, the drug addictions, the criminality, the boycotting and all of that was all a figment of my overactive imagination. “No problems here!” “He is only imagining that we have problems!”

You get that?? I am only imagining that the brothers that get married 10 plus times exist and want to keep this culture in tact to take advantage of it. I am supposed to know that a “daiee” that gets married and divorced 20 times is a natural thing.

Instead of addressing problems, we have to shoot the messenger or trivialize them as not being from the “duaat”. I’m supposed to be a bobbleheaded “yes man” devoid of personality. The way to take care of a person pointing out problems is public personality execution so that other dissenters will not speak up.

No one is taking pleasure in pointing out problems, but to deny them is damaging! Extremely damaging. It creates an inverted universe where happiness = saddness … personality = groupthink … living in a bubble=real life

Anyone have any idea how frustrating it is for someone to tell you that what you have seen is NOT what you have seen?

I am a part of the team and want to help solve problems and destroy this culture of denial and pretentiousness that has formed in the Muslim community, but we can’t help dig ourselves out of this hole if we are going to continue to shoot the messenger, deny problems and insist on “staying the course”

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214 thoughts on “No problems here!

  1. as-Salâm ‘alaikum wa rahmatullah brother Umar,

    Anyone have any idea how frustrating it is for someone to tell you that what you have seen is NOT what you have seen?

    The way we perceive things isn’t always the reality of the situation. This is a fact. The brothers I personally know of who have criticized what you have written in your series aren’t criticizing your personal experiences or some of the specific things you mentioned of the immoral, un-Islamic behaviour; of the ruined marriages, families, and lives; of the heartbreak and crushed hopes and dreams experienced by some of us. What the majority of those who I know have/are criticizing is certain accounts directly pertaining to the da’wah, itself; such as certain apparent and assumed alliances, splits and divisions, and some of what you’ve mentioned regarding certain personalities and the issues pertaining to them.

    Two of the brothers in particular, whose recent emails have probably prompted you to write this entry, were directly involved in the da’wah, were privy to certain things that common brothers like you and I were/are not privy to, and knew some of the personalities you mentioned quite intimately, much more than some of us. They also possess more Islamic knowledge than many of us here in the West and as such, would be better judges with respect to the “correctness” of some of the beliefs and methodologies of certain individuals than some of us.

    As for the particular part of your post which I have quoted above, it is sufficed for me to mention the hadîth reported by Imam al-Bukhârî in his Sahîh from Abî Hurairah, radiyallahu ‘anhu, from the Prophet, sallallahu ‘alaihi wa sallam, who said, «’Îsâ ibn Maryam saw a man stealing, so he said to him, “Did you steal?” He said, “No, by Allah, who there is no god except Him!” So ‘Îsâ said, “I believe in Allah, and my eye lied.» (http://hadith.al-islam.com/Display/Display.asp?Doc=0&Rec=5308)

    If this is the case with ‘Îsâ, ‘alaihi as-salâm–a Prophet of Allah’s–then how much more so would it be for us?

  2. Different witnesses will ‘see’ and ‘report’ different things regarding the same incident.
    You’d think it obvious to all that what you narrated was a reportage of what you have seen and experienced; as for elements of a recostruction based on that, so there may be some scope for denial/disagreement of fact-based issues.

    But how strange, I agree, when the denial is *clearly* that the protestor is ‘in denial’.. or worse denying you *your* experiences .. how crazy is that.

    Another thing I noticed about people who would rather ‘sweep this under the carpet’ are those who think ‘airing dirty laundry in public’ is to be avoided at all costs..
    ..specifically they get their ‘knickers in a twist’ over the Sufi’s seeing all this and revelling in it. (if so, please realise that you have a problem with your prides making you grit your teeth, if you cant take their frankly pathetic self-congratulation.. NOT a concern for the dawah, in my opinion and wallahu alim)

    Umm.. its like, oh so its better to let the problem fester instead.. lest the soooofies throw their chests out and strut?
    LET THEM high5 themselves, who cares about them.
    If theyre stupid enough to think this means some sort of ‘victory’ or superiority of their dawa… rather that what it is, us **RECOVERING** from the extreme elements in our dawa that we trusted.. then that is fine by me. Because what you Umar have done is help ‘lance the boil’ thereby it is better for us and purifying inshallah, and worse for them and their false claims toward humility and gentleness.

    ok, now enough of my metaphors and similies!

    wa salam

  3. Assalamualaikum,

    I understand how frustrating it can get when people try to sweep important issues under the carpet and literally turn a blind eye on problems that might fester into something ugly if they are not dealt with immediately. we must all understand that this is not a mud-slinging match but an attempt to understand the source of such righteous disregard. Indeed, to Allah SWT is our return.

    Fisabilillah.

  4. I think the proof is in the current situation. If things were not as bad as Umar has stated, then certainly the state of Salafi Da’wah would have been moving ever upward since the 1990s eh?

    I think the current situation speaks to the truth of Brother Umar’s statements.

    As to this comment above “Two of the brothers in particular, whose recent emails have probably prompted you to write this entry, were directly involved in the da’wah, were privy to certain things that common brothers like you and I were/are not privy to”

    It is that exact type of crap that allows people to get away with the stuff that they do.

    The idea that anyone is above anyone else, or one brother is “common” and another is not is EXACTLY why the Muslim community is in the state it is.

  5. As salaam alaikum bro Umar,

    I wasn’t a part of the salafi movement but a part of the salafi dawah, yes. As an observer (Durham, NC, late ’90’s), I saw a vibrant community torn apart by the over zealous brothers you’ve described. The zealousness I could deal with. But when I saw that in order to be a part of “the group” I would have to suspend the thinking capability that Allah gave me, thanks but no thanks.

    Been there, done that – twice (1970’s): Once with Elijah Muhammad and again with his son, WD. I recognized right away the group dynamics that were at play. When I made that analogy with some of the brothers of “the group”, I was roundly pounced upon with the claim that I was comparing the dawah of the NOI to the salafi dawah. Far be it. I was only comparing the similarities of group control and dynamics. Of course, I was boycotted by brothers I had known and befriended for years. Freedom of thought died and so did our associations. It was a sad day.

    As a leader in the community during that time, it was especially hurtful to see all that you including many of them, had worked to build, was slowly being torn apart.

    This is my first time ever publicly commenting on this situation. I knew whatever I said would/could probably be taken out context and every attempt made to discredit it. Nevertheless, the saddest aspects of it to witness were: 1) young brothers and sisters just following blindly not really knowing the issues or what was at stake. 2) brothers reneging on agreements they made with the community to try resolve the issues they said they had with the community. No one said, ‘we want to go back to the table’ or anything – just abandoned the process and ultimately, the community. The younger brothers and sisters, I could sort of understand. The “old heads” like me, should have known better.

  6. as-Salâm ‘alaikum wa rahmatullah brother Abu Sinan,

    As to this comment above “Two of the brothers in particular, whose recent emails have probably prompted you to write this entry, were directly involved in the da’wah, were privy to certain things that common brothers like you and I were/are not privy to”

    It is that exact type of crap that allows people to get away with the stuff that they do.

    The idea that anyone is above anyone else, or one brother is “common” and another is not is EXACTLY why the Muslim community is in the state it is.

    My statement had nothing to do with anyone being above anyone else, so please don’t misconstrue it as such. The statement which you quoted from me has to do with people being privy to certain information and events that would have an affect on the way something is perceived, and thus the conclusions that are drawn from it.

  7. Rasheed, what Umar said in his series rang true for so many people – how can you say that its simply down to difference in perception? And i’m not talking about the social problems, i’m talking about the splits between organisations & masajid.

    And just to bring some context to what you’re saying, those brothers who you mention who “were directly involved in the da’wah” (or at least one of them) were right there at the beginning joining hands with SP warning against this person and that person. It wouldn’t be a gross exaggeration to say that the early work of these brothers helped create TROID, and how damning is that?

  8. Brother Omar,
    Your experience is just that; your experience. I would not minimize it nor would I use it as evidence that the Salafee dawa is finished in America or anywhere else for that matter. Peoples lives, relationships, homes, etc., beging “ruined” as you say over these events have likely been influenced by things along with the events you depict. Your points about peoples ‘baggage’ from their past before Islam coming with them into Islam is quite valid and unfortunately for some, not dealth with, but this is part of the human condition. Thus, some of the ‘carnage’ you alluded too likely had other variables involved, such as “denial”, which is an unconscious defensive coping mechanism that prevents one from seeing the reality of certain behaviors, ideas, etc.
    Beyond that, I have been thinking in depth about your posts beyond what I wrote yesterday just after reading through your writings. The “star” and cult like figures you alluded too are now those deviants who appear regularly on MBC television, appear as “head liners” in the crowded, yet still “empty” annual conferences in america, who maintain clean shaven faces and call to other than what Allaah and His Messenger call too, and most unfortunate is that some of our brothers who once espoused salafee views have chosen to follow such well known personalities, but, as I said yesterday, I believe some of that has to do with the problem of going extreme. Generally, it is difficult to maintain any extreme position for long and often one swings to another extreme position, frequently the opposite. This is not based on research but clinical experience. If one is truly grounded in His/her Deen they will, Insha Allaah regain a steady state through repentence, dua, self assessment, etc. Many have gone through the things you mentioned and have not become the ruined soles you speak about.
    What disturbs me about your writings is that many Muslims who ascribe to other than the way of Ahle Sunnah wa Ja’maah are likely gloating over this information as if is the daleel proving salafeeya is nothing more than another madhab and is now finished in America. These are the Muslims who join various groups and ‘stars’ and are of what I call the “I’m OK, your OK” crew, accepting each other no matter what. In the end, however, the Deen is crystal clear and there is no confusion, what-so-ever, of what a Muslim is to be upon. And may Allaah guide all of us the path of righteousness.
    abooismail

  9. as salaam alakium, brother umar those who are in a state of denial,are like the bird who buries its head in the sand. there is nothing that you have articulated out of context,i have live through that terrible peroid in which those who claimed that they were on the minhaj of the salaf as salah,i witness its fall into another hizb,a cult! as i attempted to go against the flow as i person in leadership i was villified,boycotted threaten with death. i trust that ALLAH will bless and protect you for speaking straight to the point,i pray that those who critic your frankness and are in denial come out of denial.

  10. Br. anothersalafi…

    jazakallahu khayran…

    your comment was right on… this series may have been sad (i certainly found it a depressing read) but as you alluded, acknowledging the problems that br. umar highlighted is an important step to recovery.

    i think everyone can see that it has resonated with many different people who were at sometime involved in the salafi “scene” … and in different ways… this collective acknowledgement is a critical step to fixing these problems that have been ignored for too long…

    brothers i know who wouldnt know a blog from a frog have been coming online just to read this series after hearing the buzz.

    for many, it has been a release and in sha Allah the beginning of a successful healing process

  11. Salam

    Brother Umar Lee you have issues akh. You are hard on the brothers who are following the Sunna. What you may not realize is that the reason for so many divorces is the fact that these sisters do not want to follow the Deen and this is most true of the African-American sisters. When they wanna be chickenheads we leave them and that is what a man with eeman should do. We are setting an example for our seeds to follow. Women are the worst in the deen, that is a fact.

    You also seem to yearn for unity amongst Muslims and that is a false desire. The goal is correctness, not unifying with deviants and ignorant people.

  12. Ali Ibn Sherman Ferguson:
    Women are worst in the deen. that is a fact?

    I suppose you are alluding to the hadith in which the Prophet saw adviced the woman to give much charity due to two main faults of theirs.

    But to take this and be arrogant about it and ‘harsh’ and think this is the ‘SUNNAH’….brother i wouldnt be surprised if brothers like you were part of the problem..not the solution.

    I suppose you would have some sort of excuse also for these ‘brothers’ who left behind a trail of kids never to check up on ’em or support them?

  13. WOOH!!
    women are worst in the deen and that is a fact??!!!

    May I ask you where you get this from?!! Please don’t quote me the hadeeth of Prophet Muhammad (sallallahu alaihi wasalam) in reply. Because if you do, then with all due respect, you are wrong. ‘Naaqis’ doesn’t mean worst…
    wAllahu ta’ala ‘alam.

    “the sisters don’t want to follow the deen…”
    I can say for assurety, if a husband TEACHES his wife, invests his money in her islamic education, by Allah’s guidance, she would want to follow the deen.

  14. burgundy, the reasn the brothers leave the children is because of the system. Many of these women leave the house before idda is up and they are in disobedience so the man doesnt have to take care of them. You people are ignorant because many of the salaf married and divorced alot, plus the ulamaa have said that marriage with intent to divorce is halal as long as the five conditions are met PERIOD. You people are westernised as marriage is for sexual enjoyment and you are trying to use this issue of frequent marriage as a weapon against the salafis.

    There will always remain salafis that are clear on the truth and they will continue to expose the deviants and people of desires

  15. Assalamu alaikum, you can marry with the intent to divorce? Huh? Then wouldn’t that be like– a temporary marriage? And I thought that was haram. I was taught that when you get married, your intention should be to *stay married*, and *then* if something happens and the two of you *can’t* live togehter, then *as a last resort*, divorce is an option. I thought that divorce was the most hated thing in the sight of Allah?!

    Goodness, if I’m *deviant* or *ignorant* or *not following the Sunnah* on this matter, then maybe I should go ahve a talk with my husband (I’m being sarcastic here). How utterly awful!? I wasn’t aware that the Sahaba married and divorced multiple times and even if I was, I’d want to knwo the context behind that. Just because the sahaba did something, doesn’t mean you go and do it, especially if you *don’t* know the context of their actions!

    And the odds of getting ten women (assuming you married ten times), that “don’t want ot follow the deen”, etc., just seems statistically rare to me!

    There is just so much wrong with this comment that I could just keep writing, but I’m tired! Marriage isn’t only for sexual enjoyment! What about the verses in teh Qur’an? Don’t they mean anything? What about spouses living in tranquility? Being a “garment for one another”, did you forget that? Subhanallah! I’m really trying not to get angry, but I found this man’s comments down-right offensive as a woman! Perhaps there are many sisters who are *not* practicing the deen, but there sure are a lot of brothers in that same boat as well! And you have the nerve to talk about following the Sunnah, as a way of justifying your commetns! I think this is just exactly what Umar Lee *and others* have been talking about! At least I can thank you for giving us a stark reminder / example of at least *some* of what is wrong with our community today! I ask Allah to protect the good, righteous, practicing sisters from the so-called brothers who will exploit them and then call it the Sunnah later!

  16. Wow, Ali, with spokesmen like you, it’s a wonder that the dawah didn’t take America by storm…

    So your namesake from the Sahaba just married Sayyida Fatima (as) for sexual ejoyment huh? He could have just thrown her aside like a cum rag at any point and that would have been a-ok?

  17. (to continue) The prophet (saws) told us that marriage is half the din. He did not say, in any ahadith I am familiar with “Hit it and quit it”.

  18. Asalaamu alaikum

    Please brothers and sisters do not get into it with brother Ali because he is either joking or has some serious issues that he has to come to terms with. To argue with a person like this will just degenerate this topic like others that have come before it.

    Allah knows best

  19. This very list of comments proves brother Umar’s posts were right.

    If some of these people are representitive of what Umar talked about, I am surprised things didnt break down further and faster than they did.

    I have never actually seen someone defend their practice of marrying and divorcing dozens of women until now. I have never seen someone defend the idea of having children and then refusing to take care of them until now. The Prophet, himself, was an orphan, and these “people”(I dont even want to give them that, but what other term can I use without cursing?) would make their own sons and daughters effectively into orphans! HARAAAAM!

    Like I have said, many of these people trade in their old street habits for “halal” justification, and off they go. No longer are they “ghetto superstars”, they are now “on the haqq”. Maybe they should be called “Halal Superstars” instead?

    The idea that one can have children and then refuse to take care of them is INSANE and one that every Muslim should denounce loud and clear.

    Instead of operating their married life life their previous dating life, I think they should concentrate on education so at least they can communicate in a decent fashion. It is said in the deen that you should travel even to China for knowledge, in their case, maybe they can travel, learn, “hit and quit” some Chinese ladies “to spread the dawah” and then leave.

    These people are sick and use twisted ideas of Islam to spread their sickness.

  20. Ali Ibn Sherman…you are a pinhead. Or is that a “chickenhead”? In either case, it might be men like you who drive sisters away from the deen. And where do you get the idea that wishing for unity of the ummah is a “false desire”. Dont you remember Allah orders in the Quran, saying “Hold fast ALL of you to the rope of Allah and do not seperate?” I dont remember Allah qualifying that with asking you to determine who are “deviants and ignorant people”. Something tells me that if you were drowning and a deviant threw you a lifeline, you’d hold onto it. Hmmmmm.

  21. As-salaamu ‘alaikum

    Not everyone who has an opinion should speak it, and not everyone who speaks it should be listened to or have his opinion entertained.

    One of the major problems in the West is that we attached ourselves to personalities but never clutched onto principles, personalities change and come and go, but the principles of the religion do not. Would any sane person abandon the principles of the religion every time the “personality” he attaches himself to changes, and would a sane person abandon the principles of the religion because of some “personal experiences” he had with this brother or that organisation?! This methodology is infallible; we as individuals are not, so let us try our best to stick to this methodology to the best of our ability and not let the ill-doings of others push us to the opposite end of the spectrum, because the other end is also extreme.

    And what has been achieved as a result of all and sundry feeling the need to share their personal experiences and take on things? Nothing! We are in the same now as we were yesterday, and we were in the same state yesterday as we were before the infamous accounts started appearing on this blog!

    Was-salaamu ‘alaikum…

  22. The “rope of Allah” refers to the Qur’an and Sunnah and not a hodgepodge of different innovated methodologies. Others have said that the “rope of Allah” are the ulamaa. So we need to hold on to them to protect our deen so this is why we only take from the ulamaa and refer our affairs to them. When our ulamaa have spoken on a matter who are we as laymen to question these things? This is why you people trying to use the issue of frequent marriage amongst the salafiyoon are ignorant as these are the ones that connect themselves to the ulamaa.

    You people should know that the ulamaa are the inheritors of the Prophets and they inherited from the Prophets knowledge and they protect and carry the knowledge in their chest and by it they guide the people to that which Allah and His Messenger commanded. So whosoever wage war against them and the people that attach themselves to them has indeed brought destruction upon themselves.

    This is because speaking ill of the ‘Ulamaa and those that attach themselves to them and slandering them is not only speaking ill about them but also the religion itself and the Manhaj which they are upon.

    It is from our blessed manhaj that we do not speak of the ulamaa except with goodness and beauty. It is from the Manhaj of the people of bid’ah to speak of the ulamaa in a bad way and distance themselves from those who connect themselves to them

  23. Ginny, the main object of marriage is sex

    Look at this statement:

    Kifayat al-Hajjah, (the commentary on Sunan Ibn Majah) as-Sindi said:

    “It is, when there is love between two, then that love will not be increased by anything among the various types of means of drawing nearer, nor will anything make it last, like the marriage tie. So if they are married with that love, then the love will increase and become stronger with every day.”

    The ulamaa did not interpret “love” in the statement above in the Western “romantic” (a concept that started in EUROPE in the 18th century) sense. “Love” has been interpreted as “sexual desire”. So this thing of “romance” and “getting to know one another is something foreign to us. So “love” (i.e, sexual desire) is for those who are married. This is better for us if we only knew. It is when we adopted the Western concepts of “love” that we started having problems. We now expect to talk and “have fun” and other wastes of time with our wives when we should be practicing the Quran and Sunnah upon this blessed manhaj.

  24. I’m just praying you aren’t an African American man… If you are, I want to apologize that your mother, aunts, sisters, and cousins (doesn’t matter whether they’re Muslim or not) failed to show you a decent example of a REAL woman. I advise you to direct your misplaced anger to the appropriate people – your mother and father (unless your mother was a chickenhead and you dont’ know your daddy – then be angry with the bum for running away from his responsibility, something you seem to have inherited from him), not women, specifically African AMerican women.

    With all due respect stop using the “system” as an excuse for not taking care of the children you created! A real man takes care of his children and responsibilities – stop being weak and MAN UP! Please tell me you aren’t one of those brothers who had four wives who were all on welfare (public assistance)!

    Umar – Excellent work! As the youngins say, thanks for keeping it real!

  25. “Of all things permitted by law” said the prophet “divorce is the most hateful in the sight of allah”

    We shouldnt speak badly of the ulama brother Ali Sherman or follow them blindly. Those ulama are contradicting the sunnah. Can you tell us why a brother should go into a marriage with intent to divorce according to those ulamaa?

  26. Mr. Ali…I would go back in forth with you trading pretentious barbs but I gotta bring the heat man…

    It’s punk ass fools like you that have sisters running for their lives (and the lives of their children) to homeless shelters. It’s stupid ass niggas like you that are producing a generation of the dumbest and most -illprepared children in recent memory – Muslim or non-Muslim. And you defend it? You even praise it. Y’all read that? He’s praising being a deadbeat dad. He’s praising being a halal ho’. Then he attributes this to the Prophet (peace be upon him) and his companions (may Allah be pleased with them all). Sisters if you see this fool coming…or anyone that even remotely sounds like this idiot…RUN for your friggin’ lives, the lives of your children, and the faith in your hearts. His barbaric and beduoin mentality is what forces a lot of our kids to view Islam as a religion of harshness, oppression and ignorance. With a daddy like Mr. Ali, it’s no wonder a lot of them leave Islam altogether. Look at the example they have. Mr. Ali, is your head buried in the desert sand that you love so much or just up your ass? either way it must be hard to breathe. Maybe that’s why you talk like you do – lack of oxygen. Sisters, be very careful of these playas.

  27. assalamu alikeum

    Incase anyone missed brother Isa’s post:

    “Please brothers and sisters do not get into it with brother Ali because he is either joking or has some serious issues that he has to come to terms with. To argue with a person like this will just degenerate this topic like others that have come before it.”

    wise words! Theres not point arguing with twats like Ali and Wahhabi cos they’re intentionally trying to rile people up. Best we just ignore them. Guys like them can talk big over the net but are cowards in the flesh.

    Umar: *thumbs up* to your post.

  28. I know Muslim_gal but my goodness. Other people, maybe even new Muslims or impressionable youth may read comments like his and fall into the same traps that many brothers and sisters are trying to pull themselves out of. I can no longer see this and not say something. Many of us were quiet and pretentiously polite for too long and allowed these trends to get out of hand and even become acceptable among us Muslims. If we are going to move way from this, we cannot allow this mentality to appear to be the norm…even righteous.

  29. I know what you mean Rashid. I wanted to give that punk a piece of my mind (and my shoes prefably smacked across his fat mouth had it been possiable). I relaise theres proabably alot of invisable readers out here who dont comment but are looking this and thinking if what he’s saying has any basis and obviously us staying completly silent and not refuting it wouldnt be all that good. But on the other hand, should we contune to feed the troll? i stopped typing what i orginally wanted to say cos i realised he’s proabably some lone assshole who’s proabably laughing at the other side of the screen and for all we know, he may not even be who he says and might not even be muslim (not saying that a muslim cant come out with such fooliness cos plenty do but you never know these days over the net)

    Anyhow, i say we ignore his stupidness but i definatly agree that we should not stay slient on the topics that Umar raised and the situtaiton of muslims at hand.

  30. I attebnded a khutbah of Imam Siraj Wahahj in Brooklyn about a year ago when he talked about the blessing of being a stepfather but cannot find the audio. If anybody can find that audio for me I would like to put it on the site insha’Allah.

  31. as-Salâm ‘alaikum wa rahmatullah sister Leila,

    F.y.i., the hadîth you quoted related by Abū Dâwud in his Sunan has been declared weak by Shaikh al-Albânî in his Da’îf al-Jâmi’ as-Saghîr, and in his Silsilah al-Ahâdîth ad-Da’îfah (no. 4414) he declared it fabricated.

  32. Mr Ali: Somehow I just cant type the word “brother”. Let me tell you the day in/day out REALITY of exactly what your fantasies translate into.

    I was a teacher in an Islamic school heavily populated with children of salafis. In general, most of these children were late to school EVERY day. My guess based on observation is that while it’s fine to keep your wife barefoot and pregnant while the kids are too young to attend school, it’s another thing entirely to have a wife and mother who has a string of kids like stairsteps–still breastfeeding 1-3 of them, who cant manage to wake up on time to get the kids to school. Where is the father? Probably either sitting in the masjid since fajr, out somewhere making “dawah” (another word for vacation away from responsibility) or snoring his butt off in bed–at ONE of his WIVES houses.

    The kids not only arrive late, but with faces unwashed, teeth not brushed, wearing either the same dirty clothes with the same stains as the day before, or for the boys a “jalabiyah” up to their knees–even in winter or a long jilbab previously used for Eid for the girls. Never mind neither was an option in the dress code of the school. It was the only thing he/she could find to put on. They invariably had no lunch at all, or some chips and soda the mother picked up on her way to school that morning. These children often were so hungry they begged–or stole–food from other’s lunches.

    Naturally, the homework was either not done, which was usually the case, the papers returning the same way they left school the day before, or done incorrectly with an obvious lack of parental supervision. This was always an enigma to me because TV was “haram”, as were video games, so I wonder where the time was spent? I know sometimes the kids were just taken to the masjid to “run around”.

    Often, some of the kids fell asleep in class. Others were ADHD, due in my opinion to a diet loaded with sugar, artificial colors and flaors, and the only way they could make it through the school day was for me to pass out their Ritilan prescriptions.

    At the end of the day, they were the last to be picked up, often an hour or more past dismissal time. The children had dozens of “sisters”, “brothers” or “cousins” in the school. They also spoke of their father’s co-wives and/or their step-fathers. There were so many marriages and divorces and remarriage amongst them, in such quick succession I wonder how the parents ever kept track of who’s kid belonged to who. The kids were certainly at a loss. I had this recurring nightmare that someday when they got older, they might end up marrying one of their siblings.

    BTW, did I mention that these glorious examples of salafi manhood had their multiple wives on welfare? That they were receiving food stamps and medical benefits (in addition to cash)? Yet somehow the kids were unwashed, their clothes were dirty, they were underfed and always seemed to have a runny nose or an ear infection. Besides the free medical care going unused for illness, there was a devil of a time trying to procure vaccination records for the children. It’s not that they werent vaccinated. The records just couldnt be found, or a trip to the doctor for a copy was too much to ask. That’s the general overview.

    Specifically, there was the ADHD child who ended up in a mental hospital for expressing the desire to shoot his sister in the vagina with a pistol his father kept in the house, and to which the child had access, even on at least one occasion holding it in his hand.

    There were two others, children of a famous “sheikh” who would curse their father’s new wife in front of other children and staff. She told the teachers she was considered the “town whore” by her co-wife and her friends. All this because of a “halal” polygamous marriage. Which btw, in case no one has noticed, polygamy IS illegal in this country. Even living with another woman you introduce around as your “wife” constitutes a common law marriage which can lead to charges of bigamy.

    Other children still who plotted running away, so that they could finally watch TV and play video games like everyone else. These kids were not even allowed to watch Islamic videos at home. Apparently anything connected to the TV was the work of Shaytan.

    Finally there was a young sister in the high school, a student, who disappeared from home and school for three days. She came back with a tale that she had fallen over a banister and in doing so injured her abdomen. Rather than takes x-rays, she told us the doctor did an internal on her, thereby ruining her “virginity”. (WTH???) And the kids in the high school in general were so tired of all the rules imposed on them at home, they chose the opposite direction. At lunch time in their class, they would remove their niqabs, take off their jilbabs, unbotton the top buttons of their shirts, and basically let it all hang out. The boys in the class were thrilled We teachers were appalled. They would arrange to meet in quiet corners on another floor, with the excuse they needed to use the bathroom. Many’s the time you’d see them in a compromising position.

    Basically I have given an idea of what it is like to be a child of salafis. I could give equally horrifying examples regards the marriageable females that got caught up in what I can only call a cult.

    My intent is to open the eyes of the uninformed about the dangers of this way of life. It is much closer to the old Ansar cult in Brooklyn, NY of the 80’s and 90’s under the direction of “Dr. Love”–anyone remember him–than it is to true Islam.

    And finally, if I understand Mr. Ali’s comments correctly, are you trying to say that marriage with the intention of divorce is halal in the salafi dawah, and that your scholars have allowed this??? If so, can you please post links to these fatwas or teachings? I want to see proof.

    And finally, thumbs up to the comments of “TheSaveRashadProject”.

  33. The Evolutionary,

    You don’t understand homework is for the kufar, and coming to school, with clean clothes would be imitating the kufar.

    The brother is hard at work selling bootleg DVD’s on the subway on the way to see his other wife in the Bronx while the kids go to school in Brooklyn, so give him a break.

    And it is unfair to mention Dr. York from Bushwick Ave, the brother hasn’t been with them for like 10 years.

    BTW, he probably wants to know if the new teacher, who looks Puerto Rican, is single because he would love to fulfill her rights in the deen and he has two positions open and he has got the hook-up at the welfare office and can get her a fat crib in the Brownsville Projects, don’t never say he cant take care of a sister.

    (I hope you know I’m joking)

  34. Some of the ulamaa, including Ibn Baz permitted a man to get married with intent of divorce as long as the conditions of marriage were met. This is the point. The brothers are keen to stay away from zina and they are being attacked for protecting their deen and clinging to the ulamaa.

    Most don’t do this, but brothers divorce these sisters when they want to follow these western standards of “romance” and want to waste time. All these sisters love to see a good man of the sunnah but after the marriage they can’t handle the sunnah in the home.

    As for school, it is better to homeschool the children than to send them to these deviant muslim schools that oppose the sunnah.

    Are you able to smell the fragrance of deception?

    Do you see how they try to twist the issue and make every one other than them seem
    to be the villain?

  35. There is a person posting under the name “Wahhabi” and since there is no Muslim out there who refers to themselves as Wahabbi, and this person is making very ignorant statements, this person is either a kafir and trying to promote a negative image of Islam and those who strive to follow the sunnah or is from some Muslim group that hates Salafis. I have deleted his comments.

  36. Evolutionary,

    what does ANY of what you said have to do with the Qur’an and Sunnah? Again you people are following Western standards. How can you claim/imply that just because one’s children don’t get vaccinated then they are not upon the sunnah? As for dirty clothes, then know that there were some from the salaf who had dirty clothes. Did this take away from their nobility? This is the way of the hizbiyoon to try to cast doubts upon Ahlus Sunnah. Trying to say that the salafis are a cult?? Come on people! It is clear that you all don’t understand this dawah in the slightest as it is nothing more than Islam itself.

    I hope that the people here can see that this forum of Umar Lee’s is a forum for the hizbees that are talking about things that don’t matter to this blessed dawah.

    Just because some chickenheaded sisters have some problems they need to work out it has nothing to do with those calling to this blessed dawah. Ever thought that the brothers just can’t find the right sister that wants to practice upon the correct manhaj?

    Check yourself people. This truth will never die. The salafis will always be here even if the hizbees hate it!

  37. The Evolutionary:

    That account was graphic…as well as heartbreaking. It is certainly mind-boggling to me that despite all of these horrific and plentiful tales, some of us cling to denying the decay that is right in front of us. Throwing around copied and pasted quotes to try to explain away this mess. Refute this and refute that. Man, who has time for a theological pissing contest when these kids are suffering the way they are? When reality is too stark, part of the cult knee jerk reaction is to retreat into sematics and intangibles to try and save face. Slogans, slogans, and more slogans. copy and paste some hadeeth. More slogans. The thing is, anyone can grab an ayah, a hadeeth, a quote from a scholar and basically do anything they want with it.

    “Sticking to the ‘ulama is the answer”

    As if YOUR scholars are trusted by all muslims.

    “Stick to the sunnah and stay away from the deviants”

    As if any group claims to be deviant and not on the sunnah.

    “No, we’re on the sunnah because we really really are on the sunnah…”

    And on and on. and our families get lost in all of this. No practical solutions for tangible problems are ever produced. No consideration for the reality we live in. Just Pie in the sky, head in the sand, fatalistic, theoretical/hypothetical jibberjabber.

  38. I seriously wonder if some of these punks are the likes of Ibn Warraq going undercover. Ibn Ferguson – you are wrong, do yourself a favor and keep quiet. One who incites people to sin incurs the sin himself/herself.

  39. The Evolutionary,

    sounds like the private Arab school (mostly for wealthy children of Arab, largely Egyptian, Saudi, and Khaleeji parents) I taught at in Jeddah. Kids came late, dropped off by drivers or maids, and picked up late. They had clean clothes, thanks to the Indonesian maid, but were desperate for my attention and love, since many of them told me that their (birth, at any rate) parents were divorced – something like 50% – and saying that muslims are picking up the worst of Western decadent ways would be putting it mildly.

    They would also come late in the afternoon, parents or drivers, and there was a classroom with some 30 children an hour after school had finished, with the children slowly disintegrating.

    Pointing out that muslims have left traditional wisdom on how to raise your children and educate them, a subject on which the Sunnah and classical scholars (Imam Zarnuji, Imam Ghazali, for example) have written on a great deal, seems to have skipped by. Wearing a thowb was as far as was necessary for them to consider themselves fully ‘muslim-dressed’ – but, by the way, as a ‘western teacher,’ i had to wear a tie and dress shirt.

    oh, and discipline… ? forget physically disciplining them, they ran wild and knew very well that the teachers couldnt/wouldn’t lay a hand on them. several 6th grade students tried to push a sudanese teacher, a friend of mine, out a window. the teacher was removed, students were left alone.

    let’s forget that some of these kids in grades 1 and 2 (ages 6-8) would hack into the internet and view porn webpages, the means to do so and the website addresses acquired from whom?

    moral crises are rampant in the muslim community – I went to saudi, hoping I would have a few better experiences with salafis than in NA. While I knew then and in NA there were several with upstanding morality, the great majority made one wish to work for Jews and Christians in NA who knew what a contract was, and honoured rights and responsibilities. (one school, a “ma’ahd” in Madinah, had an administrator who taught Qur’an tajweed at the U. of Mad. – and the school offered me a contract that “was valid for the second party but not for the first” (the school) – what is that but slavery?

    muslims need to look at themselves, and understand why our community is being left in the dust, despite our incredible wealth of people, brains, resources – we squander it by allowing ourselves to be dominated by our lower selves and urges, and we are accordingly ruled by people who do the same.

  40. Rashad, those are good and noble phrases that are used often by our ulamaa. If we were following these phrases, then the children wouldn’t suffer. We should be busying our children in getting to know the ulamaa and memorizing Islamic texts

    There are many beautiful books out giving advice on raising children, but the people are just not following it. This is where the problem is. Following the ulamaa and sticking to the sunnah IS a tangible solution.

  41. Umar, the guy using the handle “wahabi” is actually that fake sufi kabbanist follower “mohamed.” This guy labels anybody outside of his “tariqa” a “wahabi.”

  42. “It is, when there is love between two, then that love will not be increased by anything among the various types of means of drawing nearer, nor will anything make it last, like the marriage tie. So if they are married with that love, then the love will increase and become stronger with every day.”

    the correct opinion is that this hadith is mursal and not authentic from the Prophet (صلى الله عليه وسلم)… and you are a fool who picks and chooses what suits him.

  43. Brother Umar,

    I have to warn you, oc…if you persist in this blatant hizbiyyah, you will receive a lifetime ban from the manhaj.

    And of course, that means you will never be elected to the Salafi Hall of Fame.

    Please return to the haq immediately, and perhaps one day a chorus of fools with sing your praises.

  44. Ali may be a little raw, but he is correct in what he is saying. What concern are these social problems without a solid understanding of tawheed? This is the root and this is why the ulamaa talk about this topic so much. We have no need to concern ourselves with these other affairs as we should be learning and teaching our families this deen.

    In spite of how the brother came across, accepting advice and following the truth is from the most binding of obligations on all of the Muslims, no matter where it came from. And it is not permissible for the Muslim to belittle the advisor or disrespect him, no matter what his case is.

    This targeting of the salafees is from tamyee which as the ulamaa have explained is lenience towards ahl ul-bida’ and often this is coupled with harshness towards salafees. This is the problem.

    The people of tamyee’ and concealed hizbiyyah find fault with the Salafees. It seems that the people of tamyee only come out at times when they wish to attack the Salafees and at other times when the Scholars and the Salafees who follow them are engaged in a war with Ahl ul-Bidah, these people of tamyee remain silent and do not speak or say anything in support of the Scholars and those Salafees who follow them in their warnings from the Innovators. But these people of tamyee come out and speak whenever they find a need to attack the Salafees.

    There is no need for false “unity”.

    Abu Uthmaan as-Saaboonee (d. 449H) – may Allaah have mercy upon him – has explained it, he said: “And along with that they [the Salaf] unanimously agreed with their saying about the Ahl ul-Bid’ah, that they should be subdued, humiliated and disgraced, banished and driven away. That [one must] keep away from them, from those who associate with them and from those who are intimate with them. And to seek nearness to Allaah by avoiding them and fleeing from them.” (Aqeedat us-Salaf wa Ashaabil-Hadeeth).

    As for Rashad’s statement above of “burying heads in the sand” then it is not the salafees but the Ahl al-bidah that do this as Imam al-Barbaahaaree said about the Ahl al-bidah, “The example of the people of innovations is like the scorpion. They bury their bodies and heads in the sands, and they leave out their tails, so that when they are able they sting. And this is the same as the people of innovation, they are concealed amongst the people, then when they are able, they achieve what they desire”.

    So we say to you, get YOUR heads out of the sands and join the ranks of Ahl as-Sunnah as they are victorious

  45. Oh my—there’s so much to comment on. I am going to have to cut and paste these comments and write responses/questions in WORD because I cant keep up with it here. Meantime, thank you Brother Umar for the links–I will go there, as well as check out some of your commenters and add you all to my blogroll. (I added you yesterday anyway, Br. Umar. You have a fantastic blog here.)

    One more thing, Br. Umar…I started to read your “Rise and Fall” series. I am still on part 1 and I see you started with the 90s. Would you permit me to comment on the 80s and how the brothers who were slackers back then, fell in love with what came to be known as the salafi dawah, and worked to propogate it?

    For Mr. Ali, you have created a virtual vegetable soup of comments and criticisms, and questions to me, and I still can barely make head or tales of what you are trying to say or how it all connects. So what I’d like to address first from you is this. You said: “Some of the ulamaa, including Ibn Baz permitted a man to get married with intent of divorce as long as the conditions of marriage were met. This is the point. The brothers are keen to stay away from zina and they are being attacked for protecting their deen and clinging to the ulamaa.” You are begging the question Mr Ali. PLEASE, for the last time, send me links to Sheikh Bin Baz’s EXACT fatwa on this subject, including the daleel he used to determine the “halalness” of what seems to me to be a muta’ marriage. I need to see the daleel. And I also need an answer to this question, because you keep repeating this phrase…what exactly do you mean by “as long as the conditions of marriage were met.” Please list those specific conditions. I seriously want answers to my questions. I want to understand what you are trying to say. But as you know Mr. Ali, it’s all a bunch of hot air if you cant produce the daleel. And I’ve heard that time and again from salafis, so I hardly think you arent prepared to provide the proof. Thank you.

  46. Evolutionary,

    I looked all over for bin baz’s original fatwa but couldn’t find it. Sorry. However, marriage is based on four conditions

    1) The consent of both spouses
    2) The consent of the Wali
    3) The mahr
    4) Witnesses

    The difference between that and muta’ is that the muta’ contract has a stipulation of time period in it which nullifies the contract. You are still missing the point. The brothers are doing all they can to avoid zina. Should they not be applauded for that instead of bashed?

    As I was looking it seems that other ulamaa like Uthaymeen disagreed and said that this is not correct. However, like I said, most brothers don’t intend to divorce, it is just that the sisters can’t handle a household run on the sunnah. And when a sister has her own house and car she thinks she can run things and dis’ a brother because he is trying to go study or if she makes more money. That money she is earning at her job is worthless compared to the knowledge of the deen I am bringing into the home.

  47. Asalaamu alaikum

    However, like I said, most brothers don’t intend to divorce, it is just that the sisters can’t handle a household run on the sunnah.

    I once again advise the people not to get involved in arguing with this brother. It has degenerated to the point that he is calling muslim women “chicken heads” and they can not handle a “sunnah” house hold. Yes brothers and sisters..this is the way of the salaf and scholars to call muslim women chicken heads.This is how a muslim household should be.

    May Allah guide you to the understanding of the salaf. ameen. I would hope that you would talk to one scholar the way that you have here and see if he says that your manners are indicative to the way of Muhammad (peace be upon him).

    Dont disrespect the Ulema by just stating their statements without having one idea why they made those comments and to who that was intended for.

    hope that the people here can see that this forum of Umar Lee’s is a forum for the hizbees that are talking about things that don’t matter to this blessed dawah.

    You are not a scholar to say that anyone is a hizbee.

  48. Assalamu alaikum, although the hadith I quoted might be considered “weak”, that doesn’t mean that the text, in and of itself, is *wrong*. I’m just wondering what kind of families do you have, if the woman who is getting married, can’t be suire whether or not the man is marrying her, with the intention to divorce, at the outset? Do you think that strong, vibrant, healthy Muslim families can be created if the woman can’t be sure of the stability of marriage? Why should she “act right”, if the man is just going to up and leave her anyway? If men are just divoricing all the time ostensibly because “the companions did it”, what kind of families are you going to lave behind in the wake of that decision?

    The thing is, there is more to the Sunnah of our beloved prophet (peace be upon him), than a hadith here and there, and a statement such as “the companions married and divorced all the time”. If we are going to indeed follow the Sunnah we must look at how the Prophet conducted his life, and if anyone did get divroced, what was the context of that situation, and what did the prophet say, if any, regarding this?

    But one thing I can almost certainly say is that the companions didn’t just marry willy nilly and then divorce with the excuse that “the sister wasn’t onthe deen”, and then leave a bunch of abandoned kids in their wake!

    This is just one of many examples why it is so dangerous to just pull out a hadith, and a translated one at that, and then just say that you can justify what you are doing by that one lone hadith!

    And even if Ibn Baz said soemthing, it is possible that there may be a difference of opinion ont he matter. I happen to have the understanding that though divorce is allowed, it should only be resorted to if all other options to solving the problems are exhausted! Besides, it just doesn’t seem right to me that a man, who is responsible for taking care of a woman, would marry her and not tell her that he had the intention of dirorcing her. And if they both agreed to such, then that would almost be like a temporary marriage, and again, those are not allowed. Because if you are marry, intending to divorce at the outset, then that seems to be nothing more than a temporary marriage to me. Of course, it goes without saying that if you marry, with the intent to stay married, and then divorce later, than that is different!

    But I’m with Abu Sinan here, I never thought I’d actually see someone justify the sort of “hit it and quite it” attitude with Islam, and then justifying leaving by saying “the sisters aren’t on their deen”. I’d usre like to know what kind of sister “is on her deen”, that you would see fit to stay married to.

  49. Anon: JazakAllah khair…I wasnt doubting the brother that is why I asked…I thought it was a mistake.

    Brother Ali, I had ’heard’ about Sh. Bin Baz’s fatwa, not the details of it but a very brief summary (which was more so for TRAVELING brothers, who may marry with the intent of divorce) but then I also heard that Shaikh (rahimuhullah) took his fatwa back!

    Ofcourse all of this was just based on my ‘hearing’ from people! And only Allah knows how true this was.

  50. Ali: It seems to me if you are basing your life, beliefs, marriages, or even this discussion on a fatwa of Sheikh Bin Baz that you can not now find, then you are in serious trouble, as is any other man who can not “find” it. I am not saying it never existed–wa Allahu alim. But if it’s as well-known a fatwa as you have pointed out, it’s important to be able to point to it. Until I can see it for myself, I think it’s hogwash. And I dont even know what real relevance it has to our discussion. The point is not marriage with or without the intention to divorce. The point is how to conduct yourself during that marriage, however temporary, and how to properly care for the children who are a product of it. Even if the wife is a “chickenhead” (what a horrible picture and thing to say) and divorce ensues, arent your children due some respect and maintainance, as well as happiness in this life? Heck, forget all that, what about proper food and clean clothing, and a wholesome outlet for their boundless energy? They cant be expected to learn much when they are hungry–even if you homeschool them–if their environment is the pits, and they cant even find clean clothes to wear, how can they be expected to love, let alone even stand, the Deen? And they cant sit like little bobbleheads, memorizing surahs and hadith, for hours on end. They need some recreation and down time to just have plain old fun. Salafis are losing their kids from a very young age. I saw it with my own eyes. Since (super-muslim) man seems to be the master of his home, dont even try to blame the chicken-headed wife. If he cant deal with her, then at least the husband has to deal with the children. I just see your whole argument as a convoluted cop-out for lack of willingness to step up to the plate and act like a man.

  51. That’s it The Evolutionary,

    A lot of brothers from across many groups (not just Salafis) have spent a lot of time learning surface deen. You know, that part of the deen that is easy to display around others. (dress code, name-dropping, reciting this, quoting that, giving “naseehah” to anything with a pulse.) I want to stress that this occurs across many groups. Generally speaking, if a brother is a good brother, and a decent, responsible man, aligning himself with salafiyah won’t change that – generally speaking. But a lot of guys are using Islamic labels to justify their trifling ways. so they learn all of the things that they can use to show off – but they never learned how to be men. Movements in general (and I mean ALL of them) are reactionary in nature anyway and not a natural expression of the deen. So while many will deny it and holler over and over that the ‘da’wah’ is this and that and is infallible (?) the truth is, like it or not, it too is but a movement. And like all movements, when the environment changes, the issues that contributed to the movement’s momentum are no longer relevent. So the movement becomes irrelevent to the dismay of its followers. And people ain’t goin’ for the slogans no more. The quotes won’t cut it anymore. The sisters are hip to what and who they should avoid…even though the playas in the masjid parking lot may hate it.

  52. Avoiding zina? So he eliminates one sin then committing another? (ie, fathering children then leaving them or not caring for them properly). But that’s ok, he’s avoiding zina…

    And kids play, Aisha had toy dolls.. or is that an innovation too?

    This HAS to be a joke, it has to be. Your posts wreak of stupidity.

  53. So I suppose Sayyida Aisha playing with dolls and watching the “whoever-they-were” playing with swords in the masjid, both activities taking place in the very presence of the Prophet Muhammad—even the foot races he (saw) and Aisha (raa) had together–all this down-time is a western, kafir (dontcha just lovvvve that word) innovation??? Geeez, someone should have kicked the Prophet out of your club then, right Ali. Free time “is a concept of the kuffar”? What about the camel races the sahaba attended–and even bet on??? Did you ever read about that in the sunnah? Washing machines are an innovation as well? I guess that explains why so many children of salafis cant seem to find clean clothes to wear. Next time your kid’s need their laundry done, why dont you give your wives a break and take it all down to the river and beat it against a rock? And your head too, while you’re at it.

    Mr. Ali, your idea of Quran and Sunnah is imprisonment, of the mind and the body–even the soul. Ya Allah! “physically reprimand” your wives??? I almost wish I was one of them, because I’d break your freakin’ slacker neck if you even looked like you were gonna lay a hand on me.

    I’m not even sure you are really a Muslim. You sound more like an agent provocateur to me.

    In any case, you’re not a representative of real Islam. You’re a sadistic slave-driver, in addition to sounding mentally challenged. I will have NO further discussions with you. Please crawl back under your rock. Thank you.

  54. No way this guy is real. Forget the tone even, his name above lnks to some kind of drink mixing site.

    However, there are probably dudes like him out there.

  55. haha, good one Um Abdullah.

    “That money she is earning at her job is worthless compared to the knowledge of the deen I am bringing into the home.”
    Mr. Ali, if your wife’s income is so worthless I suggest you try living without it. From the way you are writing it seems you don’t work, you just “study”. And who really knows what the word “study” means in that mind of yours.

    And on another topic I noticed that a lot of the comments on this post, (not just on this post or this blog, but all muslim blogs in general) there seems to be this thing of blaming the west for the problems in the muslim community. Things are too westernized, the non-muslims are corrupting our children, we must keep away from the bad unbelievers, blah blah blah. Why is it that the west must be the scapegoat for all that is wrong within in the community today. Judging purely by this post as well as Umar’s entire Salafi series I would think that time would be better served focusing on the members of the Ummah, rather than those outside of it.

  56. Hmm, I just reread the last part of my comment and it came across as kind of preachy. Sorry, didn’t mean for it to sound that way, but don’t know how to reword it.

  57. I can assure you that I am very much a Muslim. It is a testiment to the strangeness of the times that a person upon the sunnah seems to be non-Muslim to the common people.

    Playing with dolls is permissible for the girls. But I don’t see anything about drawings and video games. These are nothing but a waste of time. People speak of camel racing, but don’t want to do it because everyone would rather invent.

    If we are going to have books for the children, then we should erase all of the pictures

    It is not that anyone is blaming the west, but the Muslims are following the western ways of raising children and putting them up as models for raising children and casting the sunnah aside. When a brother is not living according to the Western standards, he is accused of being negligent.

    Too much for our children to learn to be occupying their time with playing and recreation.

    To the contrary, a man upon the sunnah is the epitomy of manhood. The Salafee man brings knowledge into the home and teaches the women and children what they need to know. If everyone is on the same page then it works out. They get educated.

    That is why these women should know the value of being married to a student of knowledge instead of them thinking that we are just sitting in the masjid all day, because studying this knowledge is hard work. When the wives don’t cooperate it forces brothers to be part time entrepreneurs to make ends meet instead of concentrating on their studies and being a value to the community.

  58. i think this ‘ali’ person doesnt have this head in the right place. I suggest that we move on to something more beneficial than telling off this poor guy who in his hearts of hearts knows the stuff he’s doing.

    By the way I was told by a trustworthy da’ee in my area, and yes he had about 5-6 kids who he suported quite well :-) that this fatwa existed. However, mash’allah as one poster rightly pointed out, the issue is perhaps not even that. The issue is how a person behaves while they are married.

    To divorce someone over an issue which has difference of opinion is so hilarious to me :-) And so stupid. I don’t know any other word for it.

  59. Either Mr. Ali is the poster child for why certain groups get a bad rap…or he is the most brilliant Muslim satirist I have come across in a long while.

  60. Mr Lee, here is the problem with your posts. You were clearly aligned with the surorris/qutubis/pseudo salafis and did not clarify your manhaj and did not connect yourself to the scholars and were caught in the tribulations and confusion that ensued from not being connected to the scholars.

    The clear firm Salafees recognised many long years ago that our ranks needed to be purified from imposters because of this confusion, and knew what it would lead to, so the prepared themselves, stuck the guidance of the scholars who clarified the manhaj, and they built their da’wah and their walaa and baraa upon it, and fled from the hizbiyyeen, and were very strict in their da’wah, refusing to cooperate with anyone who did not display a sound understanding and implementation of the Salafee manhaj and everyone thought them to be extreme and harsh.

    Those that did not remain with the scholars were engulfed by the tidal wave that has come upon them. What you see now is every naa’iq speaking about this fitnah and everyone confused not knowing who or what to believe or what is going on!

    And then instead of attributing this fitnah to those who truly brought it within the Salafees (the Ikhwaanee Imposters, posing as Salafees who came in the last 10 years), they blame it upon the Salafees themselves! Verily the salafees are blameless in this affair and are safe in their deen because of our connection to the scholars.

    The matter is so very simple, if only they knew, yet it has become so very confusing?! And to make matters worse and more confusing, you now have many people who had personal grudges and jealousies with the Salafees, all of them are coming out and fuelling the fitnah by spreading these lies and accusations against the salafees.

    All of these social issues are a distraction from what is important. Do not be deceived by these things.

    The salafees were successful many long years in clinging tightly to the Scholars who clarified the Salafee manhaj, and who were instrumental in refuting the new wave of Ikhwaanee imposters of the last decade, who entered the ranks of Ahl us-Sunnah

  61. Ali=Halal Ghetto Superstar.

    Dawud, there are Saudi children who grow up in Saudi Arabia with Tagalog(Philipines) as their first language because they spend so little time with their Saudi parents and family that they pick up the maid/nannys language before Arabic and then start to speak Arabic with an accent.

    A shame.

  62. meaning they’re raised by their maid, abu Sinan?

    I hope you remember your child a bit more than some parents. Sadly though, as Dal Nun Strong, along with UNESCO, bad parenting habits are becoming pandemic: I’d also like to think that muslims are doing better than non-muslim brits and europeans at keeping a family together, but I’m afraid I’m afraid to think of what the statistics might look like, particularly for the North American muslim group to which I belong (at least by citizenship and faith)

    ‘What kind of country is this for children?’ [on Britain, not Saudi or muslims in general, but if you reflect on the comments above, you’ll also be cringing as you read]
    http://dalnunstrong.blogspot.com/2007/02/what-kind-of-country-is-this-for.html

  63. Umar Lee,

    You should remove all of your posts, cease and desist, clarify your manhaj in writing and begin to attach yourself to the scholars and rectify your affairs.

    As far as the salafees are concerned, the social ills you describe are a red herring to attack the good salafees. Where is your evidence for these things? Do you and the other posters of these “experiences” have witnesses? Have you consulted the ulamaa about these affairs? If these things are actually real, then let the people get on the phone with the ulamaa and consult them about these things. But I don’t believe these things about the salafees as they are above this.

    As with the name of this post, yes indeed, there are NO PROBLEMS HERE with the clear and firm salafees and these social problems described are of no consequense to us.

    Everyone can learn the clear salafee manhaj by visiting http://www.salaf.com or http://www.troid.org

  64. Umar Lee…you are spot on. I have nevcr seen the worst of the worst “ghetto” behavior until I became a Muslim. Sad to say, but it is the truth. Why, just a while ago, a Sister at a local mosque got up during closing announcements and warned all the Sisters (within earshot of ALL the congregants) NOT to marry her EX because he gave her Clamydia! So when people wonder why I don’t bring my kids ’round most Muslims……that’s just my latest excuse.

    When it comes to Muslims and our problems, DENIAL ain’t just a river in Egypt….for sure.

  65. I am offended that TROID has a website. The internet was created by the Kuffar and having a website is most certainly immitating the Kuffar.

    No hard core salafi types should even post here, or be on the internet, it is immitating the Kuffar. So is using cars, airplanes, airconditioners, dish washers, deodorant, toothbrushes, guns, most modern weaponry, CDs, cassette tapes, so that means no more cassette tap or CD lectures. That TV and video/CD were invented by the Kuffar, and hence is haraam as you are immitating the Kuffar if you use them.

    Using the welfare system is Kuffar, because it is the Kuffar who made it, and the Kuffar who fund it. Stop your WIC and section 8 NOW or go to hell.

    PS, it might be a bit cold here in the DC area, but riding your camel to work sure beats going to hell for driving a car and immitating the Kuffar. But man, after that long camel ride my legs didnt want to go up the stairs. You know the Kuffar invented the elevator right?

    Wait…..I am typing on a computer…….Haraam!…….

  66. Erm…has no one yet pointed out that these problems amongst the salafis are not due to aqida, but due to social ills that existed amongst them before they became Muslim? The salafi dawah is a victim of its own success- it spread to ppl with little knowledge, and the demand for knowledge outstripped the supply.

    Umar, please contact me

  67. “If we are going to have books for the children, then we should erase all of the pictures”

    AH! I remeber going through this phase when me and my daughter used to cross out all the faces in the books!

    Br. ALi Sherman, if you are living overseas, it is very easy for you to say a lot of things about raising children given that you are surrounded by Mulsims, different envoirenment, where practicing your religion is not strange!

    But for us, living in West, how can you say we are following ‘western’ methods of raising our children. What do you know about raising children here? We have to fight a battle and we have to give and take (without compromising our deen) so that our children don’t become rebellious.

    “…A man upon the sunnah” would also know and realize that our beloved Prophet (sallallahu alihi wasalam) was understanding about people’s situation, surroundings, circumstances and WISE to advice others…

  68. All I can say to Ali is…if you are calling muslimas”chickenheads” it says a whole lot about you and where you *think* you’re coming from.

    Do you know the definition of a chickenhead?
    Maybe We should define the meaning of the words
    Loser
    BrokeDownPlaya
    Chump
    WannaBe
    Because they all apply to you.
    I feel sorry for your wives. They have got to be the most miserable women on the planet.
    May Allah Help Them!
    Ameen.

  69. Umm Reem,

    Sherman is not living overseas. He sits in the masjid all day… waiting for someone to give him a plane ticket and $200 a month so he can SIT with the Ulema!

  70. Wallahul Musta’aan….. Yaa “Salafee Method” I saw that you are practicing the Hizbiyyah of establishing that those two web sites are the way to learn the “clear salafee manhaj by visiting http://www.salaf.com or http://www.troid.org.” Does the Salafee Manhaj call to going into peoples HONOR? Does it call to lies, and cut and paste efforts to destroy the ability of people to give Dawah? With clear foolishness like:
    “The Warrior and defender of Ahlus-Sunnah and their Manhaj our noble Shaykh the enemy of the people of desires Shaykh Faalih al-Harbee was asked……” Then when this MINOR student talked (TROID aka http://www.troid.org their partner (s) in crime SPUBS now some other name in www. cloak) tried to push that HIZBEE as a MAJOR SCHOLAR “al-Allamah” as to make his words the words that had to be followed. And if you did not take his words and BOYCOTT and DECLARE in Public what he said then your SALAFIYYAH is/was in QUESTION! Are these Shabaab the ones that you want us to establish our “SALAFIYYAH” with/from as being clear? Now since OUR MAJOR Scholars have now establish that troids famous scholar “Faalih al-Harbee” is not who they claimed was not bringing the HAQQ, have they Troid been made to clarify their Salafiyyah? I ask this since you direct to them!!!!!!! Then tell me why you clear brothers don’t practice this “So brothers like Abdul-Haadee,2 Shuayb3 and Thanaa-Ullaah, all have correct ‘aqeedah. And if any one of them was to fall into error, then it is appropriate that they are advised and not exposed.”? That was from Shaikh Waseeullah Al-Abbass….! December 2005. He also said: “Likewise, any man who is upon the clear manhaj yet has an odd opinion we leave that odd opinion and we benefit from his remaining sciences. As for branding as an innovator and warning against everyone who falls into error then this path is not the path of the Salaf and is rather the way of the Khawaarij who used to go to extremes and even used to make takfeer of people due to some mistakes and the issue may have only been an error according to their opinion!” NOTE*(1 Transcribed and adapted from http://www.esnips.com/nsdoc/ed47aa7b-8d31-489f-9a9e-cfbc6c6d019a/?id=1158617906453 originally translated by the brother Aboo Muhammad al-Maghribee.)……OR this…:

    “The person who you asked (i.e. Abee ‘Amr) also spoke about Abee Usaamah ath-Thahabi and described him as being “an innovator”, yet the brother ath-Thahabi as I have known, sat with and heard about during these days, is one who possesses clear ‘aqeedah from before and up to today and he is of healthy ideas, he does not possess any leniency in ‘aqeedah.

    Yes, he may not agree with some of the opinions of the people, or the opinions of some people, yet this does not substantiate for all of you that are upon the clear manhaj to hate, severe off or boycott. He (Aboo Usaamah) benefits the brothers there in Britain, in Birmingham. However, from the issues are that there are people who hate the Jamiat totally! For that reason, they spread things about him (Aboo Usaaamah).”

    How about this…..”You also attack the strangers and weak ones and this is not a righteous action. It is as if this disease came to you from Britain, wherein there are some people who I invited and spoke to, so I do not speak with imagined events, they are those who attach themselves to Maktabah Salafiyyah (Salafi Publications), yet their striving is only against the Salafees with little that is right and much falsehood! If they really want the Countenance of Allaah they would rectify their affair and the affair of their brothers.”

    Or this….”I debated the man who is called ‘Aboo Khadeejah’ regarding his opposition to the Jamee’yah in every small and big thing whether it was right or false, and he did not come with anything convincing, so I advise him and all of the brothers to leave off blocking off the way of their brothers and to take what they have been advised about if they truly want the Countenance of Allaah.

    Yet if they just want to rule over and control the servants of Allaah or want to run the affairs of the issues of the people, then akhee why don’t you just get yourself a flock of goats or sheep and then you can direct these sheep to wherever you want to direct them to! But as for the people they don’t have to check with you if they have another opinion! Some people just desire to control the affairs of people!

    Finally, I say to not enter into the likes of these issues which is poison to the Jama’ah, the Jama’ah of the Salafees. We do not see a Qadiyani talking about another Qadiyani, or one who has the ‘aqeedah of the ‘Asharees or the likes speaking against an ‘Ash’aree, we never see this! For this reason, take the lectures of the scholars and benefit from them. I give salaam to you and bid farewell to you and I hope that you spread my speech here fully without omitting anything via the (well-known) means of distribution…”

    Are you calling us to look to those who refuse to fix their errors?

    OKAY then when Shaykh Khaalid ar-Raddaadee said:
    “A question was asked in relation to the term ‘clear and unclear salafees’, and in response to this question I explained that it is not permissible to use this terminology…”

    “…What is strange is that the owners of this site (Salafi Talk), may Allaah guide them, left a lot of questions in which I was asked about attending some of the lectures by the Salafee Mashaayikh that are given in [the Masjid] of Jam’eeyat Ahlul Hadeeth, in which I responded that these lectures should be attended and that one should be keen upon attending them. They left these words of mine and took the other words…”

    “…I [would like to] bring attention to the point that I have advised the owners of this site – Salafi Talk – may Allaah guide them, that they stay away from spreading ‘Qeel wa Qaal’ (it was said and he said) on this site of theirs, and that they remove a lot of the statements and opinions that contain a lot of Ta’addee (excessiveness) and ignorance. In these statements as well, is a lot of injustice, making incorrect judgments/rulings as well as hastily spreading narrations. I have advised them about this, and they promised that they would remove a lot of these issues from their website.

    What is even stranger is that they are selective. They select from the sayings of the Mashaayikh and the students of knowledge that which is in agreement to their way and their Manhaj. If they find a saying of a Shaykh that is in agreement with their desires they run with it, put it on their site as well as advertise and propagate it, just as they have done with my speech on Jam’eeyat Ahlul Hadeeth. In contrast to my words/lectures in warning against Ghuloo (extremism) and in advising them in regards to the Manhaj mistakes that they have and the likes [of this speech], and that they proclaim their Tawbah, free themselves from it, seek pardon from those who have fallen into error likewise, and that they make Bayaan (clarifiy) this. They did not pay any attention at all to these words of mine, neither were they pleased with it. Rather they went creating disorder and spreading things that are strange and absurd…”

    All can be seen and HEARD from http://www.madeenah.com/article.cfm?id=1075

    And there is more…See some of us have years in the DAWAH and have seen the transformation from real knowledge to this “toliet contents” that you call us to. NO don’t get me wrong…There is ALOT….A WHOLE lot of good on their respective sites. But you need a power sifter to know what is what.

    See when you read and listen to this by Shaykh Khaalid ar-Raddaadee:

    http://www.madeenah.com/article.cfm?id=1069

    Salafi Publications fell into some issues that were brought up against them. There were some Manhaj points brought up against them that included Ghuloo (extremism), putting themselves forward to teaching as well as being hasty in some issues in which they were given advice in regards.

    Included in this advice, is [a narration] that reached us in which Dawood Adeeb showed Ghuloo towards Salafi Publications; that they have with them a stamp of approval upon everybody whom they issue a ruling upon, whether it be a recommendation or dispraise. This is blameworthy Ghuloo, so [we spoke about him] from this perspective, as it relates to the brother Dawood. And he has come to us now and we found that he was very accommodating and receiving to advice as well as being co-operative, and he promised that he is going to make a Bayaan (clarification) that he was mistaken in this issue and that he is going to make Taubah from it and proclaim all of this publicly.

    “This is what should be done by every Salaafee; that if a mistake/fault is made clear to him, he retracts from it. So what happened is just as I have said; Dawood was not spoken about specifically, rather it was an advice directed to Salafi Publications and those who are in charge of it, which consisted of some of the issues that they fell into from Ghuloo, being hasty in some issues, and also what relates to putting oneself forward to teaching and giving Fatwaa by those who are neither qualified to do so nor have the ability to engage in this affair (giving Fataawa and teaching).

    And so we had given them advice, and they promised us that they would write something to show that they have retracted from a lot of these issues, and we are still waiting for them to proclaim publicly their retraction as well as their Taubah from some issues and errors that they fell into.”

    Reference: Audio Tape: 10/4/2005

    Now When will this HAPPEN?

    Now as for your advise, warning etc. to the Brother Umar….Then we say FEAR ALLAH!

    Let this be a lesson for us All. Stop playing “personality worship” with us. If the Haqq is the HAQQ then stop callin tho Hizbiyyah in the name of the Dawah.

    I have a bunch of this trash saved in files. They may have deleted some from there sites but some of us saved them as proof for when this day came.

    Wallahul Musta’aan

  71. Abandoned Salafee:

    What is your position on the likes of IANA/Timimi/Idris Palmer/Abu Muslimah etc?

    Are you referring to clinging to the ulamaa as “personality worship”? Who should the salafees cling to if not the ulamaa?

    The Salafees, if they are mistaken in a position and the ‘ulamaa’ clarify it, they correct the affair with humbleness, as they love correctness and clarity.

    When you hear the ‘ulamaa’ giving advice, you find the Salafees implementing the advice, or trying their best to. However, there are some who claim Salafiyyah and it seems that their only purpose in existence is to attack the Salafees, openly and in secret. They try to use statements of some scholars against the salafees when in fact the salafees have more right to the ulamaa than the imposters.

    So let the people of the Haqq be known by the way they receive the advice of the ‘ulamaa’. And let the people of falsehood and desires be known by how they shun and contradict the advice of the ‘ulamaa’, time after time, despite their verbal claims.

    We love our ulamaa and we cling to them and honor them and we ask them to advise us on our affairs

    So the salafees have more right to the ulamaa

  72. ok SalafeeMethod … name 50 of the leading Salafi scholars today…

    in fact, name me 3 of sh. ibn uthaymin’s best students… like the ones who teach in his place now at unayzah…

    all this talk about “we follow the ulama” “we love the ulama” has a very hollow ring…

    “the empty vessel makes the loudest sound”

  73. Young brother “SalafeeMethod” don’t be sloganeer…Stop the word games and address the fact that those you direct towards are but HIBZEE’s. And for you to even ask me about the personalities that you have, is a clear proof against your “lack of scholastic principles”.

    I quote to you from a book written by Shaikh Abdul Muhsin ibn Al-Abbad….”And from the innovations that have crept into our Ummah is the testing of people with personalities.”
    Ibn Taimiyyah was then quoted from Fatawa as saying this happened with Yazeed ibn Muawiyyah….etc.

    Now I ask you this, what does it matter what I think of any of those people.

    I was Salafee much prior to them or their coming on the seen. I can say that I know them all.

    But you ask this question as if my statement about them will make or break my Salafiyyah?

    Remember they are Muslim and they have rights……Blood, Money, HONOR!

    When you gather the Statements from the Ulemah with the accompanying proof (about this one or that one) then we will look at it.

    Caution****Don’t bring me a BOGUS translation from one of those web sites that I have mentioned unless they have the ENTIRE audio to go along with it…….The ENTIRE QUESTION …….and the ENTIRE ANSWER…….

    That is LOOK not agree or disagree.

    You talk from the Baab of those who have NO knowledge. Then it is upon you to BLINDLY FOLLOW every fatwa that comes to you. Just like CATTLE.

    Yet there are those of us whom Allah blessed to know the language (ARABIC) and to sit with others who where blessed with more than us to learn (after knowing Arabic) how to read and understand what we read.

    Arabic in and of itself will not give it all to you.

    You have to learn the Usool with it. If not you will be translating fee as in when the statement of: Fees Sama’a comes to you as it relates to Allah, instead of ABOVE.

    Now I refer you to the beginning of the Prophets Prayer by Al-AlBaanee. There you will see the statements of the four Imams about following their opinions:

    Imam Abu Haneefah:”It is not permitted for anyone to accept our views if they do not know from where we got them”

    “It is prohibited for someone who does not know my evidence to give verdicts on the basis of my words.”

    Imam Maalik ibn Anas
    “Truly I am a mortal: I make mistakes (sometimes) and I am correct (sometimes). Therefore, look into my opinions: all that agrees with Book and Sunnah, accept it; and all that does not agree with the Book and the Sunnah ignore it.”

    Imam Shaafi’i:
    “Whenever I voice my opinion, or formulate a principle, where something contrary to my view exists on the authority of the Messenger of Allah (sallallaahu ‘alaihi wa sallam), then the correct view is what the Messenger of Allah has said, and it is my view.”

    Imam Ahmad ibn Hanbal
    “Do not follow my opinion; neither follow the opinion of Maalik, nor Shaafi’i, nor Awzaa’i, nor Thawri, but take from where they took.”

    There are more statements but I will depart upon this.

    If the Imams of the Sunnah said this, how dare you bring me the KALAM of those shabaab web site engineers. When you really have the words of the Ulamah…..and not a cut and paste effort to control our minds with GORILLA MARKETING tactics, spread it and improve the conditions of the people with knowledge.

    But stop that Ulamah said garbage and you (Challenge) translate their words for us Noble brother.

    So please don’t ask me about Salafees that you don’t agree with.

    Ask me about some of the Sufee Tareekh that have the minds and hearts of the people upon clear BIDAH.

    Ask me about the lies of the Qadariyyah and Shia’ ……Oh yes they are not your object of Dawah. You want to feed on us.

    So I ask you where is Paradise as it relates to your allegiance question? Will leaving or joining with them place me in the Hell Fire?

    Wallahul Musta’aan

  74. IslamicSciences:

    I can’t name 50 scholars and don’t know if there are 50 scholars on the planet. Some of our ulamaa are (in no particular order) Sh. Rabee, Sh. Ubayd, Sh. Al ash-Shaykh, Sh. Luhaydaan, Sh. Fawzan, Sh. Abdul-Muhsin Al-Abaad, Sh. An-Najmee and those with them in the Kingdom as well as the major students in Yemen. This is not to exclude any, but the major ones that come to my mind. There is safety in sticking to them and their advice. All the other issues other that these speakers are calling us to are distractions and tribulations.

    Abandoned Salafee:

    Our ulamaa have advised us against cooperating with the people of innovations, misguidance, and desires.

    Why should take from the likes of these speakers in the west who revile and belittle the ulamaa, acting as people of knowledge and elevating their position, when in reality their knowledge is like a man made lake in comparison to the ulamaa’s oceans of knowledge that are vast and continuous with benefit and blessings.

    In regards to this issue, Shaykh Naasir (may Allaah have mercy upon him) was asked what foundations should the Islaamic world be called to towards implementing Islaam, and he gave a detailed description of returning to the Book and to the Sunnah as understood and practiced by the companions, if you wish you may refer to the as-Salaah magazines in which he mentioned regarding this topic of Jarh and Ta’deel, “…and here occurs a very important question, which many of the Islaamic groups and parties have neglected. Indeed it is: ‘What is the way towards gaining knowledge of what his companions were upon from the understanding and practical application of this Sunnah?’ The answer is: There is no way towards finding that out except by returning to the science of Hadeeth, the science of Hadeeth terminology, the science of Al-Jarh wat-Ta’deel, and the application of its principles and its terms.”

    And we are aware that this principle exists in this day and age and it was confirmed by Shaykh Naasir as he said regarding Shaykh Rabee, “He is the carrier of the flag of Jarh wat-Ta’deel in this present age and he is our brother…” and he later said, “…the ones who refute him do so without knowledge and the knowledge is with him!”

    So the various scholars and students of knowledge are none other than Sh Rabee’ and the Kibaarul ‘Ulaymah of the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia. In reality the Salafees have not given the ultimate authority to admit or expel whomever they please from the Salafi dawah, rather this has been done by those who are agreed upon by the Kibaar themselves.

    Not once has the Kibaar critisized a Muslim without evidence and without first speaking to that individual and notifying them of their wrongdoing. So they have gone on some wild goose chase singling out individuals to critisize.

    Akhee Abandoned, should it not bring joy to the heart of a Salafee to see the Ahlus-Sunnah in such desolate places and in such small numbers (and sticking together in these small numbers) are taking upon themselves the responsibility of carrying out the da’wah of the Prophets and cleansing it from the doubts of the mukhaalifeen?

    Should the salafees not be zealous in their gheerah of their religion, and protect it from innovations and desires like they would protect a priceless jewel that was in their posession?

    Should our manhaj not be more beloved to us anything else? Should we not compromise it regardless of the hardships we may face from hizbees and lack of numbers? Should we not protect our deen by seperating ourselves from the hizbees and the society in general? Should we not seperate ourselves from their evil books and lectures?

    Should we not oppose those who try to make us doubt this noble path by telling us that we are living with our heads in the sands or telling us these horror stories in order to frighten the salafees and make them afraid to stay firm in their stances?

  75. br. salafeemethod, if you dont know who “the ulama” are (and i dont think you do as ur comments show) dont insist that everyone should follow what YOU think the ulama are saying…

    the world is a big place, and its full of many scholars… if you dont think there are even 50 scholars in the world, then i would like to know on what basis you have made that judgment… what authority or ability do you have to judge that… do you personally know the thousands of people of knowledge around the world… have you tested their knowledge? if you did, would you even have a criterion to judge their scholarship?

    the world is a big place brother… open up your eyes and try and go outside your little comfort zone and take a see what else is out there

  76. islamicsciences: how can there be more than 50 scholars?? If there were so many, then we wouldn’t have enough left to refute. Our list of scholars is shrinking by the day, and that is the sign of true manhaj (remember stick with the jama’h even if one… we are going to get to one soon enough). Wanna help add, err. remove one more? We are always game for a good pdf refutation.

    -signed SPUBS & TROID (par’ners in crime) :)

  77. Yaa “SalafeeMethod” in reality you are but an arguement against yourself!!!!!!
    You wrote this:

    “In reality the Salafees have not given the ultimate authority to admit or expel whomever they please from the Salafi dawah, rather this has been done by those who are agreed upon by the Kibaar themselves.”

    Then I ask you (those “Salafees” that you wanted to test me about…….where are your statements from the Kibaar about them?)

    Please send them to me. Please, Please, Please!!!!!!!

    I never claimed the Kibaar ever said anything with out evidence!

    But if you knew anything (at all) besides slogans; you would know that from the science of Hadeeth one Kibbaar says this one is a liar….and yet…another Kibaar says that the same person is from the Thiqaat.

    So you have to look for the Haqq not elect to pick one Shaikh and follow his words cause it is fashionable……The in crowd!

    Please address the facts of my submission that deal with the statements of the 4 Imam(s)…

    Please deal with the fact that : “And from the innovations that have crept into our Ummah is the testing of people with personalities.”

    Please deal with this “So I ask you where is Paradise as it relates to your allegiance question? Will leaving or joining with them place me in the Hell Fire?”

    Just deal with something that I wrote and stay away from peoples HONOR.

    Since you have no DELEEL would you like Abu Muslimahs phone number so you can advise him and correct his ERRORS. Please if you want good for your brother Muslim then aid him.

    Remember if you are off in an abandoned house by yourself, separated from the people, who will you call to the HAQQ? Who will you help to the HAQQ?

    “This is my path call to Allah with Baseerah(knowledge)…” Qur’an.

    Where is your call…? Just for the record, who listens to you? Whom have you helped to understand the Dawah.

    Can you name off the top of your HEAD the Full lineage of the Prophet (sallallaahu ‘alaihi wa sallam), or just hit us with the Full names of the wives if the Prophet (sallallaahu ‘alaihi wa sallam), or At least 50 Companions of the Prophet (sallallaahu ‘alaihi wa sallam), or at least can you NAME the BOOKS in the Qur’an…all of them?

    I have no doubt (without claims to the unseen) that you can’t. It is reflected in your young foolish slogans.

    STOP the slogans and word play. We love the Kibaar, but unlike you we are not locked into the Kalam of those whom you refered to ……the EMAIL guru(s).

    Do you not know that a great number of the Major Salaf had issues in Aqeedah? You will never tell me to not read Fathul Baree or works from AnNawwawee or any other Kibaar. This is way the Shaikh said as I wrote:
    “Likewise, any man who is upon the clear manhaj yet has an odd opinion we leave that odd opinion and we benefit from his remaining sciences.”

    “That was from Shaikh Waseeullah Al-Abbass….!
    December 2005.

    He also said: “Likewise, any man who is upon the clear manhaj yet has an odd opinion we leave that odd opinion and we benefit from his remaining sciences.

    As for branding as an innovator and warning against everyone who falls into error then this path is not the path of the Salaf and is rather the way of the Khawaarij who used to go to extremes and even used to make takfeer of people due to some mistakes and the issue may have only been an error according to their opinion!” NOTE*(1 Transcribed and adapted from http://www.esnips.com/nsdoc/ed47aa7b-8d31-489f-9a9e-cfbc6c6d019a/?id=1158617906453 originally translated by the brother Aboo Muhammad al-Maghribee.)”

    I am done with this.

    Wallahul Musta’aan

  78. I don’t think this Muslim “Ali Ibn Sherman Ferguson” is a real person. I find it hard to believe such people exist – they cannot.

    I think all the people commenting are just getting their leg pulled by someone who has time to waste.

  79. سئل علماء اللجنة الدائمة :

    انتشر بين أوساط الشباب السفر خارج البلاد للزواج بنية الطلاق ، والزواج هو الهدف في السفر استناداً على فتوى بهذا الخصوص ، وقد فهم الكثير من الناس الفتوى خطأ ، فما حكم هذا ؟ .

    فأجابوا :

    الزواج بنية الطلاق زواج مؤقت ، والزواج المؤقت زواج باطل ؛ لأنه متعة ، والمتعة محرمة بالإجماع ، والزواج الصحيح : أن يتزوج بنية بقاء الزوجية ، والاستمرار فيها ، فإن صلحت له الزوجة وناسبت له وإلا طلقها ، قال تعالى : ( فَإِمْسَاكٌ بِمَعْرُوفٍ أَوْ تَسْرِيحٌ بِإِحْسَانٍ ) البقرة/229.

    وبالله التوفيق ، وصلى الله على نبينا محمد وآله وصحبه وسلم .

    ” فتاوى اللجنة الدائمة ” ( 18 / 448 ، 449 ) .

    Question: It has become common among young men to travel abroad to get married with the intention of getting divorced, and this marriage is the purpose for which they travel, based on a fatwa that deals with this issue, but many people misunderstand the fatwa. What is the ruling on this?

    Answer:

    Getting married with the intention of divorce is a temporary marriage, and a temporary marriage is an invalid marriage, because it is mut’ah, and mut’ah is haraam by consensus. Valid marriage is where a man gets married with the intention of keeping his wife and staying with her if she proves to be a good wife and he gets along with her, otherwise he may divorce her. Allaah says (interpretation of the meaning): “either you retain her on reasonable terms or release her with kindness” [al-Baqarah 2:229].

    And Allaah is the Source of strength. May Allaah send blessing and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad and his family and companions.

    Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn ‘Abd-Allaah Aal al-Shaykh, Shaykh ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Ghadyaan, Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan, Shaykh Bakr Abu Zayd.

    Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah (18/448, 449).

  80. “Omar
    February 15th, 2007 at 6:46 pm
    Erm…has no one yet pointed out that these problems amongst the salafis are not due to aqida, but due to social ills that existed amongst them before they became Muslim?”

    Salam alaikoum…I do believe Tariq Nelson has mentioned this in several of his posts allahou alim.

    For me reading these comments was a difficult experience in itself.

  81. I found the fatwa from Ibn Baz (May Allah have mercy upon him):

    Question:

    I heard one of your fatawa on audiocassette in which you permitted marriages in foreign countries where the man marries with the intent of divorcing his wife after the termination of his employment or student visa. What, then, is the difference between this type of marriage and an invalid temporary marriage? What should he do if his wife bears him a daughter? Should he abandon her in a foreign country with her divorced mother? I am in need of clarification.

    Fatwa:

    Yes, the Permanent Committee for Scholarly Research and the Issuing of Fatawم, over which I preside, has issued a fatwa permitting a marriage entered into with the intent of divorce as long as this intention remains concealed between the groom and his Lord.

    If he married in a foreign country with the undisclosed intent of divorcing his wife upon the completion of his studies or employment, he is not liable according to the majority of scholars.

    Furthermore, such an intention is not a pre-condition in marriage [as in the case of temporary marriages], and should remain between him and his Lord.

    As for the distinction between this type of marriage and temporary marriages, which are unlawful, the latter stipulates an agreed upon period of time, like a month or two, or a year or two. When this period elapses, the marriage becomes nullified. This is an invalid temporary marriage. There is no liability on one who gets married according to the Sunnah of God and His Messenger while harboring the intention of divorcing upon the lapse of his stay in a foreign country. In the same vein, his intention might change as it was never publicized, nor is it a condition for marriage. Rather, it is between him and God and, therefore, he is not at fault. This type of marriage is a means of preserving him from fornication and lasciviousness. The majority of scholars maintain this position, as related by the author of al-Mughni, Muwaffiq al-Din b. Qudamah, may God bless him.

  82. Bro , u are not a traveller , this fatwa doesn’t apply to u, u are in ur native land ..Dont pick and chose fatwas according to lowly desires , u will be misguided !

  83. Ali,

    You listen to audiocassettes? That is haraam and immitating the Kuffar. I suggest you stop imitating the Kuffar and write a letter to the community declaring your stance against immitating the Kuffar.

    Just dont write it on a computer, or with a pencil, those were invented by the Kuffar.

  84. Lame Brain, I mean Sherman.

    Have you forgotten what Allah said about marriage? Have you forgotten the Prophet said to FAST in order to preserve yourself from fornication and lasciviousness!? Does Lower the gaze mean anything to you?

    May I introduce you to my nonMuslim father and brothers so they can beat some SENSE into you.

    Seriously, I will gladly pay for a one way ticket any where in the world for you so you can be on your merry way – assuming you have no back child support to pay or children to visit! OR you may borrow my “piece,” and end it all now..

  85. I don’t get a chance to respond during the day because I am busy with my studies and my part time business

    frankincense, It is truly sad that people do not believe that the good salafee man such as myself exists, but we are out here bro. I am also saddened by the hostility of the women. Women truly need a good salafee man in the home establishing an orderly household.

  86. Ali,

    How can you be a “good Salafee man” when you are imitating the Kuffar? The only way to prove you are a good Salafee man would be to stop using your computer, stop immitating the Kuffar. Give up your CD player, give up your car, your air conditioning and heater.

    Please, stop immitating the Kuffar, stop posting!

  87. OH. MY. GOD. !!! Has anyone really read and understood this fatwa from Bin Baz??? This is the crux of the fatwa: “As for the distinction between this type of marriage and temporary marriages, which are unlawful, the latter stipulates an agreed upon period of time, like a month or two, or a year or two. When this period elapses, the marriage becomes nullified. This is an invalid temporary marriage. There is no liability on one who gets married according to the Sunnah of God and His Messenger while harboring the intention of divorcing upon the lapse of his stay in a foreign country.”

    #1. A temporary (muta marriage, which is haram) basically requires both bride and groom to agree the marriage is for a limited time only. Once that time has elapsed, the marriage is null and void.

    #2. A “halal” temporary marriage says if the groom ALONE, in his heart, marries with the intent to divorce, it is fine, AND it is between him and Allah.

    If this is someone’s Islam, then thanks loads but I want NO part of it. Here’s my reason for believing this fatwa is insane:

    Islam is to be a religion of mercy between all human beings, especially mercy between husbands and wives. Now follow me on this one. It seems FAR more merciful to me that if a man only intends to stay with a woman for a specific period of time, and perhaps conceive a child during that time who will need care for many, many years, wouldnt it be sooooo much more merciful for the wife to know what she faces, SO that she can prepare herself for the end of her marriage, and plan provision for herself and possibly a child once the husband skips out after enjoying her all this time ( to preserve his chastity–barf–why doesnt he just FAST)?

    How is the second alternative Islamically correct? Where is the mercy? The groom had it in his mind all that time that as soon as he finishes his business, he’s outta there. And here’s the UNSUSPECTING wife–and possibly a child/children–left high and dry, wondering who will pay for the rent, food, clothing, etc.

    Further, the fatwa states: As for the distinction between this type of marriage and temporary marriages, which are unlawful, the latter stipulates an agreed upon period of time, like a month or two, or a year or two. When this period elapses, the marriage becomes nullified. This is an invalid temporary marriage. There is no liability on one who gets married according to the Sunnah of God and His Messenger while harboring the intention of divorcing upon the lapse of his stay in a foreign country.”

    It is so obvious a man who marries in a foreign country with the intention to divorce knows VERY well for what period of time he will remain in ths foreign country. So whether he stipulates this period aloud to his wife (haram) or keeps it a secret in his heart (halal) it STILL involves a SPECIFIC period of time. So why the BS? Why the word games and twisting the truth? A spade is a spade is a spade…you can not fool Allah. And how many were they that have been destroyed and consigned to hell just for that reason…trying to get over on Allah? It’s all semantics. What a pitiful game we play.

    This fatwa is so sick, so sneaky, so UN-Islamic I want to vomit. This is salafia? No wonder Islam rejects extremism and sects. Because when a group of people embark on a path away from true Islam, basing their religion on scholars, rather than the Quran of Allah and Sunnah of the infallible Prophet, the result is this under-handed, hypocritical, anything-goes-if-I-can-get-a-fatwa-on-it, mentality.

    May Allah protect us from this EVIL kind of thinking in the name of Islam. Sisters…run for the hills, because among other good reasons for rejecting a salafi man, this one takes the cake! You’ll never know if your man is really there for the duration. Nor will your kids. Wise up and reject this garbage.

    Islam is light–nur–the simple truth open for all to see. Darkness, convolution and keeping things hidden is not Islam. It is the work of Shaytan. This is not Islam. This is heresy. Wa aoothoo b’Allah.

  88. sister , u realize that ibn baz is conveying the opinion of Ibn Qudamah al-Hanbali, the relied upon jurist of the Hanbali madhab who claimed that it was the opinion of the majority of the scholars. Its not something that he innovated nor there is something “salafi” about it. Having said that I personally “dislike” the opinion and my heart is not comfortable with it .

  89. P.S. I noticed the questioner in Mr. Ali’s posting of the Fatwa by Bin Baz asked also…Question: What should he do if his wife bears him a daughter? Should he abandon her in a foreign country with her divorced mother? I am in need of clarification. ”

    Now I’m not sure if there’s a difference between a son and a daughter in the questioner’s mind, BUT I do notice Bin Baz did not answer this part of the question, which surprises me. I think it is a very legitimate concern and should have been addressed.

  90. salam…

    can someone please CONFIRM this fatwa, before we start discussing it. It is very easy to pull out things from the internet, especially things translated in English (hadn’t we have enough problems with the translation of fatwas).

    If the fatwa is true, can someone confirm if shaikh had changed his position (which i had heard from very reliable sources, but can’t get in touch with them right now).

    Someone really needs to confirm all this before believing this, as there is no source quoted either to the fatwa!

    wAllahu ta’ala ‘alam

  91. This is the point…do we really need these granular “fatwas” in order to do what we know damn well to be the right thing? A real man doesn’t need to wait on Shaykh Ibn Fulan to know if he should take care of his damn daughter or not. I mean my goodness. Who cares if the fatwa is real or not, in context or not….whocares? Have we decended so far into shaykh-worship and this cult-like group think that we need to hook up a tele-link before we know if it’s permissible to wipe our asses or not? Men who are going to ditch women and their kids will do so no matter how you construe and verify this “fatwa”.

  92. To: ibn AbduRezzaq. Yes, I understand your point, yet it is represented as “the majority of scholars maintain this position”, when in fact there seem to be many dissenting positions. There are other scholars who do not allow marriage like this under any condition. Bin Baz is revered by salafis especially. So even though this fatwa represents one view, it has become “gospel” to salafis, and apparently the only correct answer because it was related via Bin Baz. In any case, it seems to be a disturbing fatwa…one that does not jive with other precepts of Islam.

  93. ^ that is not the point. the point is that people like to throw names of elite shayookh to support their desire and cause confusion among people.

    As you can see people are already talking about this fatwa without even confirming it. Just because someone quotes a fatwa form an elite shaikh doesn’t mean he really said it.

    Of course, it is not to say that those shayookh cannot make mistakes, but before we accep something as linked to their names, it has to be *confirmed*.

    This is not called a shayookh worship, it is called ‘asking the people of knowledge’
    wAllau ta’ala ‘alam

  94. Thank you Rashad and Evoluntionary! I’m still laughing and crying at the sadness of those who think it’s real (as in correct Islamically) knowing full well what Allah says in the Quran. This fatwa DOES NOT complement the guidance given in the Quran, no matter how one twists it. Do you honestly think Allah or His Messenger would allow such a thing! Have you NO SENSE!?

    – No Longer Amused

  95. To: TheSaveRashadProject Excellent point. Which was really part of what I was trying to say. Too often we have people eager to apply the perceived “letter of the law” without understanding the spirit of it. These knee-jerk, cultish reactions appall me. Some things just dont work with other aspects of Islam. So of course it’s not going to sit well with us. Yet somehow we bury that thinking part of our nature and follow blindly. It’s shameful. BTW, lol@Shaykh Ibn “Fulan”!

  96. Ask one of the brothers who knows – I once asked a brother from a “dawah centre” about the ijaza for hadith of al-Bani, a perfectly legitimate request. A brother told me he’d get back to me. Two weeks later, I emailed him again, asking the same question, whereupon he emailed me, and I’ll leave only what’s printable and relatively polite from the email: “You worthless ****, you are pathetic **** to even speak about the great shuyukh… you don’t have the right to ask such questions, go to hell…”

    Sounds like ‘sufis’ own all the fanatics, sure.

    Also, I fail to see why ‘sufis’ are blamed for slamming al-Maghrib in that article above which was written by a secular atheist – although I know that Stephen Schwartz writes for FPM, he’s so far off the charts that even the extremist Kabbani disowns his statements, and who belongs to a branch of Naqshbandi ‘sufis’ whose teacher doesn’t even want to be identified with them. Kind of like writing about salafis by quoting from the public statements of “Imam Halili” or “Sh. Faiz” in Australia…

  97. Um Reem, I respect your position, but aren’t we to take our religion first from the Quran and then the Sunnah? In some circles Islamic sheikhs have been elevated to the position of Pope, which the Catholic Church says is “God on earth” and therefore infallable. Humans are humans, and make mistakes.

    And one more point I would like to make is this. If our brethren were practicing the “basics” of Islam and working legitimate jobs to care for their families, I dont think they’d have as much time as they do to sit around discussing minutiae. I think in too many cases, the brothers arent busy enough with certain commands of Allah–like providing for their families–because they are sitting around dealing in trivia under the guise of “learning”. And it never ceases to amaze me that while so much from the “kafir” is haram, apparently cash welfare, food stamps, medicaid and Section 8 are not. Such hypocrisy.

  98. The fatwa is from Majmu Fatawa wa Maqalat Mutanawwi’ah.

    People there is a difference of opinion and both have their daleel. The one that is correct gets double reward and the one that is incorrect gets a single reward.

    I would not marry a woman with the intent to divorce her, but I still respect the Shaykh and will not disparage him or his fatwa even if I do not agree with it and lean to the other opinion.

    It is not preferable to marry and divorce often, but we can’t disparage the brothers that are marrying and divorcing often are brothers that are very cautious to keep away from zina. We don’t know if they intend to divorce or not. That is between them and Allah. For OUR purposes, they have not commited zina. PERIOD. That is all that we have to say on the matter.

  99. This is what I have been saying all along. You get these people who convert to Islam only to use the rulings by one person or another to continue their ghetto ways.

    Not supporting children you father is ghetto, unIslamic and a truly dispicable behavior no matter what some Sheik says.

    Look, some of these same Sheiks that some of you almost seem to worship are KNOWN in their own countries, for God’s sake, for using their manhood’s to try and “drive the jinn” from young possessed women.

    My wife’s family, all Saudis, know of one such Sheik first hand. These Sheiks are people, just like you and I, they are not without sin, they are not without personal interests.

    Some of these people will twist and turn little points here and there to try and support what THEY think is right. They bend things to make them conform to THEIR culture and their practices.

    In this way they are no different that the new white liberal converts to Islam who seek to change and shape the deen to fit their own personal needs and image.

    The Prophet himself was an orphan. Any Sheik who suggests that it is okay for someone to get married knowing that it will end the second they leave the country, with or without kids, and then says nothing about the responsibility to support the woman and the child, has issued a fatwa that is unIslamic, contradicts the entire meaning and basis of The Qur’an and the deen and the striving for a just world.

    This Sheik, in his fatwa, basically makes it okay for any traveling man to leave a trail of used women and orphans around the world. SHAME on anyone who says or condones such a thing.

    He very well knows that such a woman, and her children, in the cultures that they are in, are doomed to a terrible, lonely and poor life.

    I despise the ghetto converts who come to Islam looking to make everyone think they are pious only to use the religion to further their own devilish behavior. I despise the way it makes Islam look. I despise the fitnah it leaves in it’s wake and the women and children it destroys.

    Only an absolute scumbag can father a child and then try to find a way to not support it or not to give it the emotional backing it needs. The fact that some “leaders” in the Islamic community can justify this is a complete condemnation of the current state of affairs.

  100. You know brother Ali, you’ve told us alot about yourself. You said:

    “Brother Umar Lee you have issues akh. You are hard on the brothers who are following the Sunna.”

    So therefore, Ma Sha Allah, we all now know you are “following the Sunnah.” You also said:

    You people are westernised as marriage is for sexual enjoyment and you are trying to use this issue of frequent marriage as a weapon against the salafis.

    “You people are westernised as marriage is for sexual enjoyment and you are trying to use this issue of frequent marriage as a weapon against the salafis.There will always remain salafis that are clear on the truth and they will continue to expose the deviants and people of desires”

    So we are westernized and you are on the truth… ma sha Allah

    “This is why you people trying to use the issue of frequent marriage amongst the salafiyoon are ignorant as these are the ones that connect themselves to the ulamaa.”

    we are ignorant… and you are connected to the ulama… ma sha Allah. then you said:

    “Most don’t do this, but brothers divorce these sisters when they want to follow these western standards of “romance” and want to waste time. All these sisters love to see a good man of the sunnah but after the marriage they can’t handle the sunnah in the home.”

    you are oozing the sunnah… you are a “man of the sunnah”… once again… ma sha Allah… always remember to say ma sha Allah… then you say:

    “That money she is earning at her job is worthless compared to the knowledge of the deen I am bringing into the home.”

    ma sha Allaah… your knowledge is priceless

    Then you say:

    “Isn’t the Qur’an and Sunnah being established by a good man of the Sunnah in the home sufficient of an environment? Islamic videos with those drawings on it?? I would physically reprimand either my wives if one of them brought that into the house. I have known brothers to divorce their wives on the spot for such an evil.”

    (1) you are a good man of the sunnah…
    (2) you establish the Quran and Sunnah
    (3) you provide the kids a sufficient environment
    (4) you know how to eradicate the evil (munkar)

    ma sha Allah…

    then you say:

    “can assure you that I am very much a Muslim. It is a testiment to the strangeness of the times that a person upon the sunnah seems to be non-Muslim to the common people.”

    man of the sunnah… one of the Ghurabaa.. ma sha Allah

    then you say:

    “It is truly sad that people do not believe that the good salafee man such as myself exists, but we are out here bro. I am also saddened by the hostility of the women. Women truly need a good salafee man in the home establishing an orderly household.”

    (1) you are a good salafee man
    (2) you are too good to be true
    (3) women need a good salafee man… a man like you

    Ma Sha Allah

    so tell me again brother… what exactly do you call to?

  101. Something I read today and found related to all of this:

    I don’t know when everyone will learn that being a misfit is not what is prescribed to you in Islam. The Prophetic phrase “Tûbâ li-l ghurabâ’” does not mean “Glad tidings to the retards”. The full context of it is that Islam came as something different, and it will come again in the future as something different, so glad tidings to THOSE WHO BRING IT AS SOMETHING DIFFERENT AND WHO RECTIFY WHAT MANKIND CHANGED AFTER ME REGARDING MY TRADITIONS. The exact words of the Prophet (sallallâhû `alayhî wa sallam) which immediately come after the famously quoted phrase, yet you NEVER hear, are:

    الّذِينَ يُصْلِحُونَ مَا أَفْسَدَ النّاسُ مِنْ بَعْدِي مِنْ سُنَتِي
    “Those who rectify what mankind distorted after me regarding my traditions.”

    Yet, how many times do we hear this ridiculous translation, “Glad tidings to those who are strange”??? If someone tells you to be a weirdo: WALK THE OTHER WAY. They are the very ones the Prophet (sallallâhû `alayhî wa sallam) warned against and said to rectify!

  102. I’m just a layman but discarding clear and simple Qur’anic/Prophetic principles for ambiguous, overly detailed, convoluted semantic exercises in futile arguementation is Shakh worship. It’s one thing to commit a sin…and know it’s a sin and at least think, “Damn…I shouldn’t have done that…Allah forgive me”. But to pounce on the opportunity to make something “halal” that you KNOW goes against the general objectives of Islam because a human being who is no different from you or I says it’s okay is worshipping them by obeying them. This whole ulama thing has gotten way out of hand to the point that some people’s pins and needles reverence of them does resemble a catholic’s relationship to the papacy. And they try to guilt trip any other Muslim whose lips are not constantly pressed up against some old arab ass by quoting (without regard to context)

    “The Scholars are the inheritors of the Prophets”

    The Prophet (peace be upon him) speaks true…but who’s to be considered a scholar? Someone I like or someone you like? A scholar in what context? What did the Prophet consider to be a scholar…someone who developed and formulated the categories of Tawheed? Someone who memorized vast volumes of hadeeth and athar? Someone who renewed one of the major madhhabs of that time? Oh wait…none of that stuff was even in play at the time of the Prophet. Is scholar (as mentioned by the Prophet) mentioned in a restrictive manner? Is it limited to being a scholar of narrations? What about a scholar of medicine? Are they inheritors as well? What about scientists, psychologists, physicists, linguists, farmers, school-teachers, mothers? Who are the ulama exactly and what are they the ulama of? If it’s good and it benefits us and our surroundings (in other words, Allah’s creation) then it is most certainly Islamic. Medicine is Islamic, so is Information Technology – so is Space Exploration – so is finance it’s all Islamic if it’s used for good. Early Muslims understood this much better and put this stuff into practice and changed the world for the better. Not like what we’re doing now with our dogmatic and limited definition of what is Islamic.

  103. one statement attributed to Imam Ali, karam Allahu wajahu: ‘dont look for the truth in people, rather seek the Truth, and you will know it’s people’ – a true saying, though i can’t verify its sanad myself.

    intuitively true, a true scholar is one who lives the Qur’an and Sunnah, as umm-ul-muqminin Ayesha said of the Prophet “huwa Quran natiq” (he was the walking\breathing/living Quran, sal Allahu alayhi wa Salaam)…

    makes me sad how we dont live it, but rest assured there are scholars who do, both “salafi” and “sufi,” don’t worry about the labels, just seek the Truth and know it’s people.

  104. The statement you’re looking for is:

    إن الحق لا يعرف بالرجال، فاعرف الحق، تعرف أهله
    Surely the truth is not recognized by the men. So recognize the truth; you will recognize its people.

    It’s referenced to the book al-Bayân wat-Tabyîn (3/211) … don’t got a chain of narration for you, though. Sorry. (I’m quoting it from a book called Mawâ’idh as-Sahâbah (pg. 121) compiled by Sâlih Ahmad ash-Shâmî.

  105. After several hours spent on a delivery table trying to give birth to my 1st child, the very 1st thought I had when I saw him was about the hadiths that they (men and woman into Ike and Tiny type love) love to say over and over again at various lectures. These lectures/khutbar etc.., should be entitled: Ahks up Bints down!

    Anyway, while I like I was one the verge of leaving this world, I seriously started thinking about all those lovely phrases that make woman run to Islam. You know the ones like… woman are deviant, are fitna, the worst in deen, and mostly going to hell hadiths, and came to the conclusion that they are a bunch of mess (I’m being nice here). I can with comfort say that now and not be afraid. Allah Swt makes the human caretakers (rulers) over the earth. If we are the best of mankind then how am I deviant, deficient lacking etc.. Oh, BTW, how is beating me over the head with these statements making we yearn to run to Allah SWT and stay on this deen? Seems to me we are barely tolerated to exist for the pleasure of man. This is how I was naturally made and Allah SWT didn’t leave any screws un-tightened. I’m not bent and you’re not straighter than me. Allah SWT doesn’t hate me or think low of me. When He (SWT) looks down at us, He (SWT) doesn’t just smile at the men, he smiles at His (SWT) creation. Seems to me a little to much apostle paul concepts and just out right despise and hate (perhaps closet gay issues) have snuck into the deen under the guise of following the “Sunnah”. I’m not feeling it anymore and if I wasn’t raised properly I would say your mama is deficient. However, Imam Musa has gone on in great lengths lately at Jumah and recommended that “we” need to kill the “nigga” within. So while I think some of the comments which were very disrespectful towards woman reflect the “nigga” still very instilled in some of our “brothers”. I’m please to see a good deal of brothers claiming the Salafi manhaj or just brothers following the deen the best way they know how FINALLY standing up and addressing this buffoonery once and for all.

    Now let me go hug my husband, kiss my baby and make some rakats. After reading some of the outright despise some of you brothers have for sisters, I need to fall down and Thank ALLAH SWT for my husband. Sometimes, you need to remind yourself just how truly blessed you are. I’d like to thank all of you for reminding me.

    “TheSaveRashadProject said:

    Verily, verily, verily verily life is but a dream….”

    Man, i love you dude.

    FOR THE SAKE OF ALLAH

    (don’t want anyone to stone me)

  106. Abu Sinan said:

    Using the welfare system is Kuffar, because it is the Kuffar who made it, and the Kuffar who fund it. Stop your WIC and section 8 NOW or go to hell.

    Seriouslym this shoud be a t-shirt men where at jummah. It’s that serious but I did get a good luagh out of it. I almost woke my boy.

    Were moving to NM soon inshaALlah. Idriss is almost 1 and I was thinking of having a aqeeka. Perhaps, we gather of the families and have dinner together with the entire crew before we leave if your wife is up to it. I’d love for the boys to meet and get pictures with them altogether.

  107. *hugs* The Evolutionary

    Felt you needed that after reading that “Fatwa”

    “We don’t know if they intend to divorce or not. That is between them and Allah. For OUR purposes, they have not committed zina. PERIOD. That is all that we have to say on the matter.”

    Brother, this isn’t logical because everything isn’t black and white. Life has a lot of gray. A man who is selfish and only thinks about his desires will work on protecting himself from zina. So it’s ok to dump your sperm in any naive woman available, get her pregnant, roll out to go “Study”, and possibly never see your children again except when you feel like it. This is ok because at the very least he didn’t commit Zina and that’s all we should care about!

    The woman?
    the kids?
    the emotional abuse this causes?
    the lack of manhood applied when uses these excuses and making them for brothers?

    These are small.. all that matters is that he got her a hijab for her dowry and some halal **** for as long as he deems suitable….

    We’re SO BLESSED SISTERS!

    Ya Allah SWT

  108. Hijabisoverated:

    Love you too Sis :-)

    (yeah, no stones please)

    I know what you mean. From a husband’s perspective, when I read some of these comments, it makes me want to check my self to make sure I’m not bringing any of that nonsense to my wife. MAkes me wanna go back and put some of my good ole, westernized concepts of love, romance, and respect on her and you know…enjoy each other. Any sista who’s married to a good brotha should read some of the barbaric ideas expressed here and give some serious shukr to Allah.

    Salaams to The Evolutionary – I read some of your posts…I share many of your frustrations sister. I just don’t have a google account so I couldn’t comment. Nice work.

  109. Salam to Hijabisoverrated: A big hug right back at ya! Yes, I sorely needed that. Someone hugging me would have prevented me from banging my head against the wall ;-)

    You know, your comment reminded me of something I am always bringing up when faced with male ignorance…that despite all this apparent hatred in the name of Islam towards woman, that in the sunnah it is the mother (WOMAN) who raises the children. Women RAISE men. Our position is one of great importance and worth of respect. We are not just a container that spits out another human–no–we are charged with the raising of that child to be a Muslim in every sense of the word.

    So it’s just another example of seeing the BIG picture before making gross generalizations on a few hadith. Funny women understand this better than some men, huh? Islam in total takes precedence over trivia. And btw, it’s been my observation that this discussion about women’s so-called deficiency is only prevalent among converted American Muslims, most of the salafi persuasion. For the most part, you dont have many born-Muslim men (especially Arabs) discussing their mother’s faults. They either have a genuine love and respect for their mothers or know if they said anything, she’d smack the hell out of them ;-))) But I digress.

    Anyway, you mentioned the same points I did regards welfare, WIC, etc. Specifically, Mr. Ali has posted “When the wives don’t cooperate it forces brothers to be part time entrepreneurs to make ends meet instead of concentrating on their studies and being a value to the community” and “That money she is earning at her job is worthless compared to the knowledge of the deen I am bringing into the home”. From this I gather that a man does not have to financially support his wife in Islam? That the commands of Allah in the Quran are to be ignored in favor of “study”? And that the wife either works herself to support the family, or they take advantage of the “kuffar’s” generosity in the form of goverment handouts? Amazing. And if the wife is working and the husband is laying around studying in the masjid, who is caring for the children? Dont tell me they are in kaffir-subsidized daycare, or public schools? Ohhhh, it just goes on and on–it never ends.

    Salams to TheSaveRashadProject: Thank you brother for your kind words. I appreciate them. Insha Allah I will go over right now to change my settings because I would love to hear more from you (or anyone) there. If you comment as anonymous, at least let me know it is you, OK?

  110. Romanticism originated in late 18th century Western Europe. Why do we want to lift this thing.

    If we look at marriage the way we are supposed to, then we won’t get hurt.

    “Romance” causes us to become too attached to the dunya.

    In the home upon the sunnah the man teaches the woman and children the Qur’an and other salafee books. There is no time for “romance”. If the man and woman are upon this thinking, they will be happy

  111. Lol!!

    ”…the Quran and other salafee books.”

    So the Quran is a salafee book? Wow, as a non-salafi, what is my book then according to you?

  112. Ask yourselves this:

    If there is no dating or “getting to know one another” in Islam before marriage, then how is there supposed to be “love” (the Western concept)?

    Obviously there will not be “love” so you come into the marriage with good understanding of what a salafee marriage is and things will work out.

    This should tell us that we have the wrong concept of marriage and love.

    “Romance” and all that stuff is new and only appeared recently with movies corrupting our understanding of marriage and relationships.

    There are plenty of lectures out that show us how every Muslim household should be. If we follow these precise steps, the household will be sucessful. If we try to follow hollywood we will not be happy as this is not what the aim is. Our aim is to prevent from falling into fornication, to have plenty of children and teach these children the deen.

    I will be starting a blog soon because I can see that this concept is not understood

  113. To add…the only “halal dating” is to get married. A brother sees a single woman he likes, he inquires about her and asks the wali to marry her. If it works out great…if it does not, then they get divorced. No hard feelings.

    This is what happens in dating, but we are avoiding fornication

  114. A woman is NOT required to work in Islam. If she doesnt she is NOT required to give it to her husband. If she does, it is a charity.

    A man, in Islam, cannot require his wife to work.

    If a man cannot support his wife and children without unIslamically requiring his wife to work, he should go back to school, get a better job, or work harder.

    Until he is able to support his wife, children and the household, he should NOT marry.

    Women are certainly within their rights to enquire whether or not the prospective husband has the education, knowledge and ability to support her and children. If he does not she should NOT marry him.

    A man should not seek to marry unless he can support his wife and any children they might not have.

    For a man to get married and then expect the wife to go to work to support the family whilst he sits around and reads books to “bring knowledge to the family” is insane.

    This idea would only be put forth by lazy brothers, or those brothers who are using the deen to continue their “ghetto”/scumbag ways. Sorry, but there is no other way to describe a man who would let a woman support him and his children.

    This whole issue drives me nuts. I have worked since I was 16 years old. I have two children of my own and two step-children. The father of the step children is a Saudi who lives in the “land of the two holy shrines” yet in 15 years he has given(actually his family) only about $2,000.

    So this Saudi, a man who should know the deen better than anyone, was happy to let his children go without for 11 years, and has been happy to have another man support his children for 4 years.

    If you want to talk about the Sunnah, The Prophet himself married widowed and divorced women and took care of children that were not his as well as his own children.

    Why is it that people like Ali only seem to emphasis the Sunnah when it complies with their own “halal-ghetto” ways?

    As to romance, I guess he has also selectively forgetten the hadith where The Prophet played, flirted and joked with his wives, where he did the house chores, and helped them? This, Ali, is romance in the modern sense of the word.

    The Prophet was a TRUE man, not like you “halal-ghetto” superstar loosers who are more than happy to let your women support you and more than happy to continue your sleeping around sleezbag ways that you had before you converted. You just now dress it up as the deen. It is not, it is just a continuation of your ghetto curb walking nasty self.

    I am married, I have two children of my own, two step children, and I work about 60-70 hours a week to make ends meet. THAT is what a real Muslim man does. I refuse to pimp my wife to the work force out there, I would rather run our household as a MUSLIM man. As GOD demands, I support the family.

    If and when she contributes money sometimes, it is charity on her part, NOT an obligation. Alhamdulillah, I have found that as I work harder, with every challenge or bump in the road, God helps us out.

    Why? Not because I am sitting at home letting the government or my wife support me, because I am doing my duty as a Muslim man.

    You ought to try it sometimes. Stop the ghetto BS, get a job, let your wife/wives stay at home, be a real Muslim man, not a ghetto Kuffar immitating lay about.

  115. Salaam ‘Alaikum

    The Throne of Allah is said to shake at the divorce of a Muslim couple. That should be enough for those who claim to be on the Haqq and then justify not having a single marriage that lasts more than a few months. May Allah protect and keep on the straight path the children of these marriages and divorces, because I have seen first hand the chaos in the homes and amongst the people of the community that Br. ‘Umar wrote about. Everyone needs to seek refuge in Allah in everything, including marriage, and even those who are the Most on the Haqq (or think they are, at any rate). It is the waswassa of Shaytan that a community like this or that can evolve into a place where everyone’s on the marriage-go-round. Subhan’Allah.

  116. I thought this might put the issue to rest–even though this is taken from a revered salafi site, perhaps unbeknownst to me, the sheikh issuing this fatwa has been kicked out of the club. I hope not cuz he sure makes sense.

    QUESTION

    What advice can be offered to the Muslim men who seek knowledge at Islaamic centers, get involved in various affairs of da’wah, and then socialize with the brothers (at the masjid and elsewhere), while neglecting their families’ rights in the process? Their families suffer due to their absence and neglect. Aren’t they able to study and also work to provide for their families?

    Since I know many brothers in this situation, I thought many people would benefit from any advice you have to offer.

    ANSWER by Shaykh Muhammad ‘Umar Baazmool, instructor at Umm Al-Quraa University in Makkah

    The Messenger (sallallaahu ‘alayhe wa sallam) said,

    “Verily your wife has a right over you, and verily your guest has a right over you, and verily your body has a right over you…” [1]

    So based on this, I say that providing for one’s family, spending on them, and tending to their affairs, are all obligations without doubt. A man’s involvement in affairs of da’wah is part of a group responsibility, something recommended. If others are establishing this duty, then he is not obliged to be involved.

    Without a doubt, a man’s taking care of his individual obligations has more of a right than his taking care of recommended things, or things that others are handling sufficiently.

    So if there is a conflict between the obligations related to his children, wife, guests, or his own self, and the general benefit of being involved in affairs of da’wah, then I say – No! Taking care of your obligations related to your wife and children, your guests, your household, and your own self must be given priority over your involvement in affairs of da’wah, because these things are obligations, while your involvement in affairs of da’wah is recommended so long as the da’wah is not totally dependent upon you and there are others who are taking care of it.

    Therefore, you are falling into sin by neglecting the rights of your family! And you do not have the right to justify this and say that you are busy with affairs of da’wah, since this is not something that excuses you and makes you free of sin in this case. You are falling short by taking this route.

    Look to the example of the Messenger of Allaah (sallallaahu ‘alayhe wa sallam)! He used to establish the obligatory affairs of da’wah, calling to the Way of Allaah, the Glorified and Exalted. With this, ‘Aa’ishah (may Allaah be pleased with her) said, “The Messenger (sallallaahu ‘alayhe wa sallam) used to be in the service of his family. When he heard the athaan, he left for the prayer as if he did not even know us.” [2]

    She also mentioned that he used to bring water to the family, milk the goats, etc. He used to take care of the affairs that were needed in his household, things needed by his wives. And the Messenger of Allaah was our role model and example.

    So did the Messenger (sallallaahu ‘alayhe wa sallam) fail to tend to his wives’ affairs? Did the Messenger (sallallaahu ‘alayhe wa sallam) neglect his other obligations because of his involvement in da’wah, and he was the Messenger!? Of course, the answer is no.

    Likewise, anyone who wants to call to the Way of Allaah, the Mighty and Majestic, he must first take care of his own individual responsibilities. Then, after that, he can involve himself in recommended affairs.

    But to do as some of the brothers do, may Allaah guide them to the Straight Path, they leave their families and dependents, fall short in taking care of the affairs of their households, some of them on the border of total poverty, not working to make money for their families, not seeking any provisions for their families, thinking that he is doing all of this for the sake of da’wah, this is ignorance, no doubt, a serious form of neglect, and a contradiction to the Sunnah of the Messenger (sallallaahu ‘alayhe wa sallam).

    And we do not know anything from the Sunnah of the Messenger (sallallaahu ‘alayhe wa sallam), nor from the Sunnah of the Companions (may Allaah be pleased with them), nor from the Sunnah of the righteous successors or other than them, that they used to behave in this way.

    Look at Aboo Bakr As-Siddeeq, Ameer Al-Mu’mineen of his time (after the death of the Messenger sallallaahu ‘alayhe wa sallam)! He used to go out and make money and he was the leader of the Muslims! So it was said to him, “O Ameer Al-Mu’mineen! If you would only sit in your house…”

    He replied, “Then who will take care of my family? Who will make money for their needs?” So the Companions then got together and agreed that they must provide for Aboo Bakr from the Muslim treasury.

    Aboo Bakr, the khaleefah, did not see it possible for him to sit and not provide for his family, and he was the leader of the believers! So then what about other than him from the average Muslims, from those who involve themselves in affairs of da’wah?

    No doubt, this (neglect) is a contradiction of the Sunnah of the Messenger (sallallaahu ‘alayhe wa sallam) and the Sunnah of the Companions (may Allaah be pleased with them), and it is very unfortunate to find so many families neglected for this reason.

    More unfortunately, many parents do not want to marry their daughters to young men who are adhering to the Religion and seem righteous, fearing that they may neglect them like this. All of this, in reality, is a result of people’s poor understanding of the affairs of da’wah and misunderstandings about the Religion.

    I am amazed by some people who involve themselves in da’wah, and they do not properly understand affairs like this one. I say: Rather he is in need of someone to give him da’wah and to teach him the Sunnah before he teaches the people!

    Begin with your own self, prohibit it from its evil;
    And when it ceases, then you are a wise one.

    FOOTNOTES

    [1] Saheeh Al-Bukhaaree #1975 (4/275 of Fat-hul-Baaree) and Saheeh Muslim #2722 (4/283 of Sharh An-Nawawee)

    [2] Saheeh Al-Bukhaaree #676 (2/201 of Fat-hul-Baaree) without the phrase “as if he did not even know us.”

    SOURCE

    This was translated exclusively for http://www.bakkah.net from a cassette recording with the knowledge and permission of the shaykh, file no. AAMB038, dated 1423/8/17.

  117. Romanticism is:

    Romanticism is an artistic and intellectual movement that originated in late 18th century Western Europe. In part a revolt against aristocratic, social, and political norms of the Enlightenment period and a reaction against the rationalization of nature, in art and literature it stressed strong emotion as a source of aesthetic experience, placing new emphasis on such emotions as trepidation, horror, and the awe experienced in confronting the sublimity of nature. It elevated folk art, nature and custom, as well as arguing for an epistemology based on usage and custom. It was influenced by ideas of the Enlightenment and elevated medievalism and elements of art and narrative perceived to be from the medieval period. The name “romantic” itself comes from the term “romance” which is a prose or poetic heroic narrative originating in medieval literature and romantic literature.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Romanticism

    Wanna try again?

  118. “I am amazed by some people who involve themselves in da’wah, and they do not properly understand affairs like this one. I say: Rather he is in need of someone to give him da’wah and to teach him the Sunnah before he teaches the people!

    Begin with your own self, prohibit it from its evil;
    And when it ceases, then you are a wise one.”

    wise words

  119. Ali Fergusan is either (a) a clever charlatan, or (b) a great credit to this series.

    For (a), I say good job. You have a lot of people taking the bait, and responding to your dumbness.

    For (b) , I say to everyone, “sit back, relax, get your popcorn and soft-drink, and let Ali illustrate everything that Umar talked about; we couldn’t have gotten a better example if we went looking for one in good ole Philly. Simply ignore him, and let him lay it all out for us, hopefully others like him (in their understanding of the ‘haq’) are seeing him, and saying ‘wow, we sound so dumb man, this is embarrassing dude'”

    Finally, please reserve your comments about scholars, regardless of how their fatawas seem to us. Many times, just like anything else, the context of the question, the timing of the question and the inquirer himself can all affect the type of response given. If we don’t “get it” or don’t “like it”, then we don’t have to accept it, and we are free to express our reservations about it. But, let’s hold our words against attacking the person. If you look historically, you will find the greatest ulemah have made some of the strangest fatwas, that if taken out of context would make many things halal and many other things haram, such that you would say “what the heck??”, like for instance the famous early-Hanafi opinion on alcohol being ok from other than grapes (changed later of course), if memory serves me well. If memory didn’t serve me well, then pls ignore the example used for illustrating my point, and pay attention to the point :)

    May Allah help us all.

  120. There is a VERY good lecture that Sh. Waleed Basyouni gave at Daughters of Adam conference in 2002:

    “Was the Prophet Romantic” (sallallahuwasalam)

    Ofcourse the answer was YES and he went in great details explaining how!

    Also, Yayha Ibraheem spoke at the same conference about similar topics. I am not sure where it is available online or for purchase, maybe audioislam.com or ilmquest.com
    but I’m not sure.

  121. Asalaamualaikum brother Umar,

    I read through your experience of the Salafi dawah in America and now just finished going through these comments. And one question comes to mind:

    WHERE IS THE BENEFIT? I have nothing against you or your experience…but I think it would have been wiser to put this down in a personal diary or seek some emotional support from brothers/friends/family (or your wife if you are married).

    I know there are a lot of emotions involved but what I am saying is strictly from a pragmatic approach. I just don’t see the benefit in all of this. I guess this is what happens when you reappropriate the blogging mentality/trend to a complex Islamic issue.

    (In my humble opinion) it looks like the harms have out weighed the benefits, and will continue to do so by the looks of these comments.

    I pray that Allaah relieves us of our pain and suffering and Unites us on the Truth.

  122. With all due respect, brother islamicsciences, Ali is right in saying that romantic love is a ‘Western’ concept, that involved marrying by choice, and for the sake of ‘love’. Husbands should treat their wives well, anyhow.

  123. i wonder if the following are western:

    And among His Signs is this, that He created for you wives from among yourselves, that you may find repose in them, and He has put between you love and mercy. Verily, in that are indeed signs for a people who reflect. (30:21)

    “O Messenger of God, whom do you love most in the world?” He did not always give the same answer to this question for he felt great love for many for his daughters and their children, for Abu Bakr, for Ali, for Zayd and his son Usamah. But of his wives the only one he named in this connection was Aishah. She too loved him greatly in return and often would seek reassurance from him that he loved her. Once she asked him: “How is your love for me?”

    “Like the rope’s knot,” he replied meaning that it was strong and secure. And time after time thereafter, she would ask him: “How is the knot?” and he would reply: “Ala haaliha in the same condition.”

  124. Umar wrote his experience and thats fine. But he should not portray that Salafi Dawah rose in the 90’s and disappeared in the year 2,000 after tarnishing people, marriages etc. Its a problem that was caused by people themselves and not the teachings of Salafi Dawah as it is nothing but the truth. Muslims are doing all sorts of things so do we blame Islam for it??? Umar should stop remissing over the past and start moving forward upon the truth. This article would have been better entitled; Salafi Dawah in America. As it is not a movement founded by an individual, but principles, undersatnding and methodology laid down by the Prophet and his Companions derived from the revelation. Also Umar should not think that white Americans are neglected this is whispering of Shaytaan. in an over whelming Asian or Arab or African Muslim Community a white Muslim will not be able to fit in 100% due to thir own culture and customs that does not go against Islam and that is not regarded as something bad. He must fit in to his ability.
    People falling off the manhajus Salaf is only due to them not being firm upon the foundation of the Deen. Not nurturing, purifying and educating themselves properly, but just followinf personalities, wearing Salafi as a label/badge For this reason Umar has fell and the people like him have fell and now they are disparaging this blessed dawah.

  125. Umar wrote his experience and thats fine. But he should not portray that Salafi Dawah rose in the 90’s and disappeared in the year 2,000 after tarnishing people, marriages etc. Its a problem that was caused by people themselves and not the teachings of Salafi Dawah as it is nothing but the truth. Muslims are doing all sorts of things so do we blame Islam for it??? Umar should stop remissing over the past and start moving forward upon the truth. This article would have been better entitled; Salafi Dawah in America. As it is not a movement founded by an individual, but principles, undersatnding and methodology laid down by the Prophet and his Companions derived from the revelation. Also Umar should not think that white Americans are neglected this is whispering of Shaytaan. in an over whelming Asian or Arab or African Muslim Community a white Muslim will not be able to fit in 100% due to thir own culture and customs that does not go against Islam and that is not regarded as something bad. He must fit in to his ability.
    People falling off the manhajus Salaf is only due to them not being firm upon the foundation of the Deen. Not nurturing, purifying and educating themselves properly, but just followinf personalities, wearing Salafi as a label/badge For this reason Umar has fell and the people like him have fell and now they are disparaging this blessed dawah.

  126. I believe that this sort of experience should not have been put up on the web. As now Sufis and other Ahlul Bid’ah will start commenting negatively. Umar and people like him should move on. Stop remissing over the past as it is not permissible. Qadr Allaah masha’fa’al.
    What ever happend is only due to our ownselves and our mistakes. not because of the teachings of Salafiyah. Lets be moderate and balnced Salafi as brother Abu Moosaa stated. And leave the 2 and 3 catergory of Salafis.
    http://www.al-ibaanah.com
    http://www.fatwa-online.com
    http://www.islamicknowledge.co.uk
    http://www.calltoislam.com
    http://www.madeenah.com
    http://www.salafimanhaj.com
    http://www.al-manhaj.com
    http://www.minhaj-us-salaf.com

  127. Mashallah Br.Umar that was an excellent post you wrote yet again. I can understand your fustrations but don’t let ignorant people get to you. You do what you have to do to get the message out there whether or not people want to hear it or not.

    you said:”I am a part of the team and want to help solve problems and destroy this culture of denial and pretentiousness that has formed in the Muslim community, but we can’t help dig ourselves out of this hole if we are going to continue to shoot the messenger, deny problems and insist on “staying the course”…May Allah give you success in this. Ameen.

    Hijabisoverated your comments were good. But to you all really listen to Br.Isa and don’t waste your time arguing with such ignorant people. He’s just bringing out the worst in you. May Allah guide us all. Ameen.

  128. masha’Allah ibn Sultanah, that was a good comment sister, may Allah cure them of the evil in their hearts.

    Ali Ibn Sherman Ferguson

  129. manofthesunnah: at least you are smart and open-minded enough (and that is a very small opening) to be on sites other than those “on the haq”. Perhaps Allah has given you a chance to see how foolish you sound on this forum, and learn from the experiences of many who WERE JUST LIKE YOU. And this ain’t sufis saying it is so, though they won’t be wrong if they did, but people who are generally ‘on the sunnah’. So, THINK and PONDER… don’t be entrapped in the same bubble many people lived in for a long time. Get out of it and see for what it is now— a cult that is growing smaller by the day in the world.

    Come to an AlMaghrib class and talk to the students and the teacher… IF you truly believe you are on the Haq, then you shouldn’t be afraid to ‘test the waters’ as they say. I’ll arrange for your cost of the trip to AlMaghrib to be covered, if you really are interested in exploring the deen. It ain’t Yemen, but it ain’t a cult either.

    wasalam

  130. Lotaenterprises; Those are just some of the beneficial, balanced, moderate Salafi Websites.
    I did not say only.

    Who is Tariq Nelson, who is Umar Lee. From their websites one can jusdge whether they are upon the sunnah-Salafiyah or not. Look at who they refer to. Umar wants to solve the problem yet the scholars have already done that 10 years ago. Read the refutation on the harsh severe salafis for example on http://www.islamicknowledge.co.uk under the Refutation section. Umar needs to stick to the moderate Salafis, if he wants to be a true Salafi. And not make out that he is here to solve the problems.

  131. Assalamu alaikum, the scholars may have refuted the “harsh Salafis”, but did the people listen? Did it have any affect? While there may have been some refutations, it seemed like the “exposing” of “scholars” and people, etc., still continued. As I’ve said before, I might have some serious problems with the “Salafi dawa”, or whatever you want to call it, but I have respect for people who are sincerely trying to follow the Sunnah, and not use Islam to justify their own issues, such as bad treatment of women, not taking care of kids, etc.

    The Salafi dawa, to me, is indeed a “movement”, and Umar Lee has pointed out issues / problems with if not the movement itself, issues with people / things in that movement. Perhaps “the truth hurts”, as they say, and people want to get upset at Umar for what he has said, or say “this has no benefit”, etc., however, I tend to disagree. And no, I’m not some “sufi” who wants to see the downfall of the “pure Salafi dawa which is the turth and nothing but the truth”, etc. I want the best for my brothers and sisters in Islam, and to me, part of helping us, as Muslims living in the US, especially, deal with the problems which plague our community is to recognize that they exist, and then try to go about finding ways to deal with them.

    It’s sad that we are still seeing the continuing manifestation of some of the things that Umar described right here in his comments section. We should speak the truth, as Muslims, even if it is uncomfortable, yet it seems some still want to act as if there is no problem and that Umar is just some disgruntled someone who is airing out his feelings on a blog and that he should “just keep this in a journal or diary offline”.

    While Umar may be expressing how he felt, or how he feels now, most of what he is describing are not simply “what he feels, or some emotional reaction, i.e. anger, sadness, etc.”, but him being an actual “witness” to events.

    It’s easier to just write someone off as “being of no benefit”, if you can reduce his observations to “mere feelings / emotions”, or say “oh you don’t know what you were taling about, I was clsoer to the scholars than you were so I know better, and what you say happened didn’t happen, it isn’t true”. And all of this while others are coming with the same types of stories, the same type of pain, etc.

    What also find sad is this idea that “if you really knew the truth, really knew true tawhid, this would not have happened to you”. Oh, yeah, what a way to be supportive of your brothers and sisters who have gone through all kinds of trial and pain, ostensibly in the anem of Islam, or in the anme of “following the Sunnah”. Many of us “know the turth”, but you know how it is, our faith ebbs and flows, doesn’t Allah tell us that? Sometimes our faith is strong, sometimes it isn’t, and there’s nothing like a man “supposedly follow the Sunnah” to destroy a woman’s faith in Islam, or to have a man’s faith in Islam shaken because all of his friens “stopped speaking to him”, because he “followed the wrong scholars”, or whatever.

    Yeah,rfect world, these people would have continued to be “good Muslims”, however, in case you’ve not noticed, the world is not perfect, and sometimes people’s faiths get shaken. And while we are all sitting and gloating about how “we never stopped being Muslims and following the Sunnah just ’cause of what someone did or said to us”, keep in mind that as Umm Zaid said on her blog, Allah guided us, and he could also decided to “unguide us”, yeah not the most sophisitcated way of putting it. But at any rate, I’ve gotta leave and get to work, so sorry for the abrupt ending ot the comment.

  132. Ginny. Are YOU speaking the truth when YOU claim that Salafi Dawah is a movement? Go read and find out before commenting. It is not a movement like any other group/movement which has a founder and their own principles.

    Whatever Umar said is partly true from his observations and other bits people can disagree with it. No doubt the ones who are firm and purify and educate themselvse properly will never go astray, may Allaah forbid. As Allaah has said. But those who enter Islam or salafiyah due to fasion, label, trend, for socialisation, marriage will go astray when fitnah strikes.

  133. Assalamu alaikum, yes the “Salafi dawa” as I understand it is, indeed, a “movement”, whose mantra is to “get back to the Qur’an and the Sunnah”. Meaning that the followers of this movement aim to get back to what they feel the vast majority of Muslims have gone astray from. That’s it in a nutshell.

    The rpbolem, though, is that it seems that “the sunnah” or people’s belief of what “The Sunnah” constitutes differs. You seem to agree with Ali Ibn Sherman Ferguson, on a lot of issues, which is your right, and while he seems to perceive the Sunnah as the discarding of women for the infraction of “not wanting the Sunnah carried out in the home” (whatever that means), and then also justify not taking care of his children by some reason having to do with the women not fulfilling their Idda, or soemthing, others think that the Sunnah is much different than that! It doesn’t even seem as though this guy, if he is really “real”, beleives in even being living / affectionate / whatever to his wife becuase that is “romance” and “romance is the kufr and we don’t do that”, even though there are hadiths which report that the prophet (peace be upon him), joked with and played with and yes, loved his wives!

    So funny, a man who claims to “follow the Sunnah”, doesn’t seem to want to “follow the Sunnah” in this instance!

    Anyway, I’ve gone off on a tangent (again), but the long and short of my answer is yes, the Salafi dawa is a “movement”, just like the Tablighi Jamat is a “movement”, etc. And they both along with other “movements”, have different and varying goals and aims. Call me an innovator, kafir, whatever! I’m at peace with my Islam, thanks.

    Anyway, getting back to the whole gist of Umar’s posts, the goal is to discuss the problems plaguing the community, and find ways to solve those problems, and not to keep harping on some idealistic notion of “community” or whatever, and thereby bury your head in the sand and continue with the slogans and whatnot that Umar and Tariq Nelson talk about.

  134. Wonderful post Ginny. You hit the nail of the head. From my revert’s standpoint “movements” suck. You can not build a better mousetrap. There is only one Islam. I came into the deen believing this and I will never deviate from this opinion.

    Movements just muddy the waters. Movements cause confusion. It becomes a matter of one not belonging to the right club, clique, sect, etc. Especially when they turn into the mess that the salafi dawah has become. As I said before, I sincerely believe it is a cult. I was amazed and surprised that people like Brothers Umar and Tariq (and possibly others) have had the guts to make that statement long before I did. Alhamdulilah for their courage.

    If I hadnt seen so much destruction from salafis, maybe I would feel differently. And I reject the notion that it’s not something “wrong” with the salafi dawah, but rather those that practice it. No! Own up to the fact that if thousands upon thousands of salafis are living in the mess we have all been talking about, with broken homes, neglected children, multiple (illegal) wives–easily abandoned, government subsidization, sheikh worship, blind following, etc, then something is seriously wrong with the dawah.

    One final comment. I see that Mr Ali ibn Sherman has his own website now, in which he is asking for donations of $200 to send himself to Yeman to study Islam, and $50 a month to care for his family. (BTW, I know Mr. A;i is not alone in this type of begging–I have seen it countless times before, but his is an example right before my eyes these days.) When I saw this, I immediately thought of the hadith in which the Prophet (saw) said NOT to beg for your livelihood, and said it is better to “chop wood and sell it” than to beg. So in this typical style of cafeteria Islam, in which people pick and choose what they want to follow–or not–I wonder how Mr. Ali rationalizes this begging?

    Further, I wonder how he thinks to travel when he is not even providing for his family now (as he admits to his wife/wives financial contributions), in the name of study. Is this not haram?

    My idea of a real Muslim man is this…he goes out to work everyday, works a full-time job and more if necessary, to keep a roof over his family’s head and food on the table. All the bills are paid without the assistance of the hated “kuffar”. Wife/wives do not work, especially since it is haram to marry if you can not afford one or more equally. “Study” is done in the form of reading Quran and other religious materials, perhaps aloud to his family, and perhaps a “halaqa” is held in his home once a week to benefit his wives and children with his knowledge. He helps his wife/wives tend to household chores and the care of the children, including making sure homework is done and children have clean clothes and nutritious lunches to take to school. Maybe, if there is time between doing all this, the family as a whole can attend a once weekly “halaqa” at the masjid.

    This to me is the “real” Muslim man. Other than that, it’s BS, pure and simple. It’s taking the easy, slacker way out in order to avoid responsibility. But I really would like someone to address this issue of begging. Seems to me it is forbidden. So what gives?

  135. “If I hadnt seen so much destruction from salafis, maybe I would feel differently. And I reject the notion that it’s not something “wrong” with the salafi
    dawah, but rather those that practice it. No! Own up to the fact that if thousands upon thousands of salafis are living in the mess we have all been talking
    about, with broken homes, neglected children, multiple (illegal) wives–easily abandoned, government subsidization, sheikh worship, blind following, etc,
    then something is seriously wrong with the dawah.”

    Assalamu alaikum, I’d tend to agree with this statement, however, how is “the Salafi dawa” doing in other countris? Perhaps there things are better? But I’ve had the thought that if you’ve had a movement which continues to split into subgroups, continues to disintegrate into bad-mouthing what they deem to be “wrong scholars”, etc., you just gotta wonder! It would be one thing if this was just a small faction of people, but you had many, many people caught up in this! Which says to me that when you have a “movement” whose only foundation seems to be “correcting the vast maority of Muslims”, etc., and not based on a foundation of knowledge, and people who have the capacity to transmit that knowledge, then you’re going to have problems!

    Salafis talk about “getting back to the Qur’an and Sunnah”, but what better way to “get back to the Qur’an and Sunnah”, then to learn from and seek knowledge from people who in turn have gained their knowledge from teachers who have themselves learned from people, going back in an unbroken chain back to the Prophet (peace be upon him) himself?

    Whichs me to antoher question, if I were a Salafi, and I wanted to go to a teacher, how would I guage their knowledge? Is it by how many books they’ve read? How many ahadith them’ve memroized? Do they have the system of giving ijaza to teach, as “traditional Islam” (I hate that term), does?

    I just feel more better, more assured, if I learn my Islam from people that actually have authorization from teachers to teach the subjects they are actually teaching, than to go to someone who just read a few boosk or took a few classes or memorized a few things. But that is just me! And I feel that it would be “following the Sunnah” more, if I am learning from teachers who have learned from people, in a connected line back to the Prophet. That to me, is “learning to follow the Sunnah”.

    So when I hear “Salafis” talking about “following the Qur’an and Sunnah”, (as if the rest of us Muslims don’t), and then see examples of “following the Sunnah” like “Ali Ibn Sherman Fergusson” (assuming this guy is actually real and actually a Muslim), well, as I’ve said before, it sure doesn’t make me want to “be called to the Salafi dawa” any faster!

    All this does is make me thank Allah that mos of this mess passed me by, and that I found the kind of Islam that I did find, which pretty much means that I concentrate on myself (or try to), and try not to call out others for “not being ont he haqq, ’cause I might have issues myself).

    But anyway, as I said in other comments realted to this topic, if anything these series of posts, along with the comments that have been made, just make me want to run away, really really fast. Yeah, yeah, I know there are “good Salafis”, lol, but it’s the “dawa” that bothers me, the “I have the truth and you don’t” that I don’t like, it reminds me of when I was a Christian (oops I guess I’m not supposed to say that), but it does! Right down to “Ali Ibn Sherman Fergusson’s” statements regarding women! Anyway, OK, I’m gon enow.

  136. Assalaamu alaikum Ginny: As to how they are doing in other countries, there’s a glimpse of it regards Egypt on my blog under the post entitled “Mind your own freakin’ business…and learn some manners”. Some Egyptians are adopting the “way of the salaf”. I believe from all indications it is being imported via the African-American salafis who find Egypt an easy target for making “hijra”. Spare me please!

    I’ve seen websites dedicated to this project, and known women who have made “hijra” with their husbands, only to be abused worse over there than they are here. The men are particularly thrilled with the idea of legal polygamy. Some wives have fled back to the USA. If you consider that living in the USA where welfare is always an option to support their lazy butts, not so Egypt where there is really no official support system to fall back on. Brothers there will have to work–and work HARD to live at poverty level, and it is extremely difficult to even find a job if all you have to offer is “knowledge of the deen”. Too many highly educated Egyptians are out of work anyway.

    Thanks to Al-Azhar, Islamic scholars are in large numbers, so there’s little need for anyone who only wants to teach others how to take on other wives, hem their pants and apply henna and perfume oil. I dont imagine it will last long over there. The society just can not support a bunch of immigrant slackers, and the indigenous brothers, no matter how devout, need to work hard to eke out a living. They soon wont find the time for this foolishness–and definitely the Egyptian wives wont put up with it if it means their children are not properly cared for. Nothing comes between an Egyptian woman and securing the welfare of her children. And hey–if it gets too out of hand, the government will just go after them as they do the Ikhwan and other groups. So in the end, I think it will turn out to be much ado about nothing.

    As far as learning Islam, the Prophet (saw) said my nation will never gather on wrong. So to me that is an indication that pure, simple Islam will always be available and identifiable. The great majority of Muslims do not align themselves with any movement, sect, cult, etc. They follow Islam from the Quran and overwhelmingly accepted texts such as 40 hadith, 40 hadith Qudsi, Fiqh-us-Sunnah, Sahih al Bukhari and Sahih Muslim. I think it’s time we got back to basics, and stopped allowing ourselves to be intimidated and inundated by trivia.

  137. “umm luqmaan said:

    Hijabisoverated your comments were good. But to you all really listen to Br.Isa and don’t waste your time arguing with such ignorant people. He’s just bringing out the worst in you. May Allah guide us all. Ameen.”

    Bro Isa?

    I’m lost… I don’t think my comments were directed at Bro Isa. But if you mean to just say that these type of arguments can bring out the worst in people, then I agree. I tried to be nice as possible considering the man was promoting a completely crude concept that women be trash cans for his personal fluid and we need to just be ok with this thinking, because thats our job and its the “sunnah”. Not to mention the various “chicken head” statements, and not valuing his wives working and holding down the fort while he goes and studies, and openly announcing, almost waiting to find a reason to lay hands on his wives. So I figured my reply was quite tame. Really, Bro SRPJ and Abu Sinan saved me from myself. lol

    It’s sad that someone had to post a fatwa from a man on the other side of the world to tell him what he knows in his heart is right to do for his family.

    Pounder on that for a moment…

    May Allah SWT increase of eloquence in speech and keep our taqwah in check, because these things can shake a foundation if the roots aren’t planted strong enough.

    Amen

  138. A few things I took from brother Umar’s posts:

    1 – Everything is not good (I agree with you on that) and people are weak. People/humans/insaan will always have problems and face difficulties/trails/tests/fitna…some will be more difficult than others. (The most difficult trails are encountered by the Prophets). And in these situations Islaam teaches us to turn back to Allaah and look at what we have done to ourselves and correct our shortcomings…not to lose faith/hope or play the blame game (b/c this is not conducive to the situation–Islaam is a practical religion) but to hold firm to the rope of Allaah and to turn back to Him Subhanawatala.

    2 – The Salafi dawah is the haq and Alhamdulilah Allaah has opened your eyes to this. The issue is that your writings seem to point the blame at Salafiyah/Islaam when in fact these trails and tribulations have been brought about through our own human actions, emotions, and habits. What you are doing is exactly what the media is doing to Islaam today. You have just painted the Salafi dawah as the enemy and culprit for all of the societal and cultural ills and vices that you have mentioned in your extensive post.

    Point #2 is why I say that your expressing this out in the open was of no benefit and the comments on your blog attest to this. It will only create further friction and division — which is probably not what you intended — but an unfortunate consequence. So, if your goal was to solve problems or unite Muslims or resolve issues…than I don’t personally see that happening through this type of approach.

    I can’t say I understand what you’ve gone through (b/c I didn’t experience it) but I do feel your pain as you are my brother in Islaam and your words touched me. That is the reason I wanted to offer my advice from a practical point of view and by analyzing the consequences (weighing the pros and the cons)…I just see more hurt, arguing, dividing, misunderstanding, hate coming out of your very public expression of emotion.

    No, I don’t think people should suffer in private, nor do I think that people should suffer in public or blame Islaam/Salafiyah–there is no benefit in this. I think people should attempt to heal their suffering using means that will benefit them and the ummaah. A blog is probably the worst place to discuss a complex and emotional issue like this (for so many reasons) at the same time I am not saying that this should be swept under the rug, b/c its very important that issues like this are dealt with in the right manner as they are very sensitive…They should be dealt with using widsdom…Where is the Hikmah in all of this brother Umar?

    Again this is just my thoughts, opinions and advice. I just ask that you think about the harms and benefits and sincerely weigh it out. Please forgive me if I have said anything that is wrong or offensive. May Allaah guide myself and yourself!

    Your brother in Islaam.

  139. Hijabisoverated…I meant to say I liked your comment! sorry if it came out the wrong way. And I agree with most everyone else as well. Especially TSRP. Both of your comments were really on target. I can understand where you wer coming from that’s why I said I liked the way you put your view out there. That night after reading those comments I was just really appalled that people can be so blatantly foolish. And then try to justify their ridiculous views.

    When I said that we should “all” listen to Br. Isa I was saying it to us all in general. He commented earlier telling us not to get into it with the obviously ignorant commentor up there. Know what I mean. Sorry if you felt that it was directed towards you. I was just tired that night. took me forever to read the comments. So I think maybe I was just too tired. Forgive me.

    TRSP keep up the great comments as well. You tell then like it is. You too Hijabisoverated! Believe me when I say I never disgreed with anything you said.

  140. When I say that in reality, there are 3 categories of Salafi and that we are to follow the moderate, balanced Salafi path in every issue. It does not mean that we do not buy and benefit from the translated books that the harsh/sever salafis publish likewise it does not that we do not buy and benfit from the too soft (sahwa – as some say) salafis. We benefit from them, when they bring scholars and students of knowledge over, we are to go and benefit from them. But keeping far away from extremism in harshness and extremism in softness.

    What Umar has experienced is true, but the social problems of the salafis is far greator in America than U.K. The solusion is to follow the balanced, moderate salafis. It is not permissible for us to bicker on about this and what happend in the past. Take lessons and move on.

    Since most bro/sis are regular on the net then lets benefit from good beneficial websites but not totally rely upon the web for our islamic ilm.

    http://www.islamicknowledge.co.uk
    http://www.al-ibaanah.com
    http://www.fatwa-online.com
    http://www.salafimanhaj.com
    http://www.calltoislam.com

  141. Extremism of those Being
    Harsh and Severe with others
    Advice from the Senior Scholars to those who busy themselves in criticising others and looking for mistakes in them

    Allaah The Most High says concerning harshness:
    “And by the Mercy of Allah, you dealt with them gently. And had you been severe and harsh-hearted, they would have broken away from about you…) [Surah Al-Imran: 159]

    And He also says:
    “Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. And those who are with him are severe against the disbelievers and merciful amongst themselves.” [Surah Al-Fath: 29]

    And The Prophet of Allaah sal’lal’laahu’alaihi wa sallam said:
    “Facilitate things for the people (treat the people in the most agreeable way), and do not make things difficult for them, and give them glad tidings, and let them not have aversion (i.e. to make the people hate good deeds)…” Saheeh Al-Bukhaari (Eng. Trans. Vol. 8, Pg.)

    He also said:
    “Give good tidings (to the people); do not create (in their minds) aversion (towards religion); show them leniency and do not be hard upon them” Saheeh Muslim (Eng. Trans. Vol. 3, Pg. 944)

    And also:
    “Kindness is not to be found in anything but that it adds to its beauty and it is not withdrawn from anything but it makes it defective”. Saheeh Muslim (Eng. Trans. Vol. 4, Pg. 1370)

    Also He sal’lal’laahu’alaihi wa sallam said:
    “Beware of exaggeration in the Religion, for indeed, those before you were destroyed due to exaggeration in the Religion”.
    [Saheeh. Ahmad, an-Nasa’ee and Ibn Maajah]
    ADVICE FROM SHAYKH MUHAMMAD NASIR UDDIN AL-ALBANI “Listen my brother. I sincerely advise you and other youths like you, who stand upon a type of deviation – as it seems to us, and Allâh knows best – that do not waste your time in refuting each other, saying that such and such has this in him, and such and such has that in him. This is because; firstly: there is no knowledge at all in this, and secondly: this mannerism only breeds enmity and hatred in the hearts, and causes contempt and rancour to develop in the hearts. So It is upon you to seek knowledge. It is knowledge that will make clear to you the reality of the speech which is in praise of a particular person having many mistakes, and whether he is deserving of being labelled as an innovator. Yet why do we wish to delve into such issues. Indeed I advise you not to delve into such issues. The reality is that we complain about this splitting which has occurred between those who ascribe themselves to the da’wah to the Book and the Sunnah – or as we say, ad-Da’watus-Salafiyyah the greatest cause of this splitting, and Allâh knows best, is the following of whims and desires and the evil dictates of one’s soul. It is not due to the presence of differences in thoughts and ideas. So this is my sincere advice.” [Silsilatul Hudâ wan-Nûr (784/1), dated the 1st of Rabî’ al Awwal 1414H (9-12-1993)]
    ADVICE FROM SHAYKH ABDUL AZIZ BIN ABDULLAAH BIN BAZ “What has become common in this age, is that many of those who ascribe themselves to knowledge and calling to good, fall into belittling many of their brothers who are well-known dâ’îs, and speaking against the honour of the students of knowledge and the dâ’îs. This is done sometimes secretly in their circles, sometimes on cassettes which are then circulated amongst the people, or sometimes publicly mentioned in their gatherings in the mosques. And this matter opposes the command of Allâh and His Messenger from a number of angles … So I sincerely advise those brothers who have fallen into slandering and maligning the dâ’îs, that they should repent to Allâh, the Most High, for what they have written with their own hands, and what they have said with their own tongues; which may have been a cause for corrupting the hearts of some of the youths; filling their hearts with hatred and malice, and pre-occupying them away from acquiring beneficial knowledge and calling to Allâh, because of being pre-occupied with qîl and qâl (gossiping and rumour mongering); and with speech about this person and that person; and with hunting for the mistakes of people, and burdening them with this. Likewise, I sincerely advise them that they should retract whatever they have done, and declare themselves free from the likes of these actions, through writing or methods other than this. They should remove whatever may have entered the minds and thoughts of those who listened to them, and they should take to doing those fruitful actions that will draw them closer to Allâh, and which will be of benefit to the worshippers. They should beware of being hasty in pronouncing takfîr, tafsîq or tabdî upon people, without the truth being explained, and without the proofs being established. The Prophet sallallâhu ‘alayhi wa sallam said: “Whosoever says to his brother: ‘O unbeliever’ then it will return to one of them. ” The authenticity of this hadîth has been agreed upon.” [Majmû’ Fatawa wa Maqalat Mutanawwi’ah (7/311-314), abridged.]
    ADVICE FROM SHAYKH ABDULLAAH AL-GHUNAYMAAN Amongst the consequences of the actions of these individuals is that they have confused the thoughts of many of the youth. Thus, as a result, some youths have strayed from the path of guidance and have begun to follow what those – who criticize others, and who have stood in the path of da’wah and blocked the path of Allâh – have drawn up for them. Some of the youth, as a result of those individuals who criticize others, now sense a great gap between them and the Scholars, and now harbour great misgivings, causing them to stay away from the Scholars. Some have begun to categorize people according to what he hears from these people, saying: so and so is from the Ikhwân, because he talks, visits or sits with a person from the Ikhwân; or that such and such is from the Surûrîs; or such and such is from the profiterors [i.e. those who wish to please everybody, even at the expense of the truth], etc. The amazing thing is that these people imagine that by doing so, they are applying the methodology of al-jarh wat-ta’dîl.
    However, they have adopted in this action, ignorant leaders who are misguided and who misguide others. Thus, it is upon the Muslim to fear Allâh regarding himself and those poor souls who are not even a quarter, or a tenth of the learned.
    There occurs in the authentic hadîth: “That Allâh guides through you even a single person, is better than the red camel (the most expensive quality Camel in those days).” [Related by al-Bukhârî (2942), from Sahl Ibn Sa’d radiallâhu ‘anhu]
    Meaning that it is better for you in this world. Likewise, whosoever misguides even a single person, will bear a great burden; as Allâh – the Most High – said, after mentioning the story of one of the Âdam’s children killing his brother: “Because of that, We ordained for the Children of Isra’îl that whosoever kills a person, not because of a life for a life; or killed a person in order to spread corruption upon the earth, it is as if he has killed the whole of mankind.” [5:32].
    Thus, to send someone astray in his religion is far far greater than killing him. So statements regarding matters of religion must be stated along with their proofs from either Allâh’s Book, or the Sunnah of His Messenger sallallâhu ‘alayhi wa sallam, and that when making such statements one should seek by that the Face of Allâh alone; and also one should ascertain if the harm resulting from such speech is not greater than the benefit, or that one’s intention is not due to envy of a particular individual, or due to the following of one’s desires. [Al Hawâ wa Atharuhu fil Khilâf (33-34)]
    ADVICE FROM SHAYKH ABDUL-MUHSIN AL-ABBAAD
    And close to the bid’ah of testing the people by personalities is what arose during this time of a small band (fi’atun qaleelah) from Ahlus-Sunnah’s infatuation with the tajreeh of some of their brothers from Ahlus-Sunnah, and the tabdee’ of them, as well as what resulted from that of abandonment (hajr), severance of mutual relations (taqaatu’) between them and cutting off the path of benefit from them. And that tajreeh and tabdee’, from it is what is built on thinking what is not an innovation (bid’ah) is a innovation.
    [al-Hathu ‘alaa Ittibaa’ is-Sunnati wat-Tahdheeri min al-Bida’i wa Bayaani Khatarihaa]
    ADVICE FROM SHAYKH MUHAMMAD BIN SÂLIH AL-‘UTHAYMEEN “It is essential for a student of knowledge to safeguard his time from being wasted. And time wasting occurs in a number of ways:- Firstly: That one leaves committing to memory and revising what one has read. Secondly: That one sits with his friends and indulges in vain and idle talk which contains no benefit. Thirdly, and this is the most harmful of them upon a student of knowledge: That he has no concern except pursuing people’s statements with he said this and he said that (mâ qîla wa mâ qâla) and with what occurred and what is taking place regarding an issue that is of no concern to him. And there is no doubt that this is from a weakness of [his] Islâm, since the Prophet sallallâhu ‘alayhi wa sallam said: “Part of a person’s good Islâm is to leave alone that which does not concern him.” And busying oneself with qîla wa qâla and excessive questioning are time-wasters. And it is, in reality, a disease which, when it comes into man – we ask Allâh for well-being – it becomes his greatest concern. Due to this, he may even sometimes show enmity (‘adâ) to one who does not deserve enmity, or show allegiance (walâ) to one who does not deserve allegiance, because of concerning himself with these issues which pre-occupy him away from knowledge, under the pretext of “championing the truth”, whilst this is not the case! Rather, this is part of pre-occupying oneself with an issue that does not concern him. If, however, a report comes to you without you having pursued or sought it, then all people receive news, but they do not busy themselves with it, nor does it become their greatest concern. This is because this pre-occupies the student of knowledge, corrupts his affair; and opens up for the Ummah the door of bigoted partisanship (hizbiyyah), which then splits the Ummah.” [Kitâbul ‘Ilm (204-205)]
    Also the Shaykh Ibn Uthaymeen Rahimahullaah stated in the taped lecture that was delivered in Unayzah. The tape is part of his Sharh of An-Nawawi’s 40 hadeeth, in the sharh of the hadeeth of Irbaad ibn Saariyah (no.28).
    From his [the Prophet] sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam’s statement; “Whoever lives amongst you will see much differing, so adhere to my Sunnah”,
    It can be learnt that if parties (ahzaab) within the ummah emerge in increasing numbers then one should not affiliate himself to a party (hizb). In the past, many groups have appeared; Khwaarij, Mu’tazilah, Jahmiyyah, Shee’ah, even Raafidah. Then there appeared, later on Ikhwanis, Salafis, Tablighis, and all those like them. Put all of them to one side and take [the path] ahead. Which is what the Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallaam guided to, “Adhere to my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the rightly guided caliphs.” No doubt, it is obligatory for all Muslims to adopt the way of the salaf as their madhhab, not affiliation to a specific party (hizb) named, “The Salafis”. It is obligatory for the Islamic Ummah to adopt the way of the salaf as-salih as their madhhab, not bigotry to those called “the salafis”. Pay attention to the difference: There is the way of the salaf, and there is a party (hizb) called “the salafis”.
    What is the objective? Following the Salaf. Why? The salafi brothers are the closest sect to that which is right, no doubt, but their problem is the same as others, that some of these sects declare others as being misguided, they declare them to be innovators and as being sinners. We don’t censure this, if they deserve it, but we censure handling this bid’ah in this way. It is obligatory for the leaders of these sects to get together and say, “Between us is the book of Allah, and the Sunnah of His messenger, so let us judge by them and not according to desires, opinions and not according to personalities. Everyone makes mistakes and achieves correctness no matter what he has reached with regards to knowledge and worship. Infallibility is [only] in the religion of Islam.”
    In this hadeeth the Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallaam guided to the way in which a person secures himself. He doesn’t affiliate himself to any sect, only the way of the Salaf as-Salih, to the Sunnah of our Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallaam and the rightly guided caliphs.
    And he also stated in Liqaa-al-Baab al-Maftooh Q # 1322
    “Thus, Salafiyyah that is taken to mean a special party (Hizb) with specific rules whose members consider anyone who differs with them as astray then they have nothing to do with Salafiyyah”

  142. Movements do not have to have a founder. The environment can create a need for a movement. Dissatifaction with an aspect of society or a religious matter can make for furtile ground for a movement to grow out of. Movements can have a single person or act as a catalyst that attracts mass attention. Martin Luther’s “act” was a catalyst for the Protestant “movement” but he didn’t create the movement or even the need for it. It was already there. Rosa Parks’ act was a catalyst for the Civil Rights “movement” but not it’s founder. A movement is simply a collective response to a perceived problem. And they usually mutate and splinter off into derivative groups – each claiming that the other is either too liberal or too harsh. Sort of like how the Civil Rights Movement mutated into the “Black Power” movement.

    Salafiyah is no different. As a matter of fact, if we are speaking literally – it is widely known than “salafiyah” – literally speaking was a conscious movement developed by Muhammad Abduh, then developed further by (gasp! – menacing music) – Sayyid Qutb and Hassan Al-Banna. Now of course this was all before the expulsion of the Egyptian Salafis and Ikhwan from Egypt and the asylum that many of them found in Saudi Arabia – where the (for lack of better terms) Wahhabis incorporated some of the ideals of the movement and usurped the term “Salafi” for themselves and their own particular agenda.

    So to apply revisionist history and speak in simplistic “Why, salafiyah is not a movement…Verily it IS Islaaaam…” insults my intelligence and the intelligence of anyone who can think for themselves and not believe the standard, copy and paste, mechanical reply that has appeared on this blog and many others.

  143. TheSaveRashadProject; You need to comprehend that; to follow the Qur’an and the authentic Sunnah upon the understanding and methodology of the early generations of righteous Muslims is nothing but the true, pure and clear Islam. The Islam that our Prophet Muhammad brought, that which he and his Companions were upon. This has been handed down generations after generations, through the Scholars of the Sunnah.

    Muhammad Abdu, Hassan al-Bannah have nothing to do with the true Islam in its purest form, they are known as people of innovations. They are from the Ekhwan al-Muslimoon movement for your info.

    Umar wrote this article and many things are true and that we, here in the U.K. can relate to of the fitnah that struck the Salafis of extremism in criticising and praising individuals in the U.S. But the solution for those people who are weak in eemaan and have left practising the deen, even apostated is not and cannot be found on blogs like this, where anyone and everyone can make comments without the real solution. The real solution for those who have gone back to open sinning, those sisters without husbands and with 3/4 plus children under their care, for those apostates, for those who claim Salafi yet they are harsh and severe with others and indulgde too much into jarh wa ta’deel who have no wisdom , solution for those Salafis who are too soft and lenient who dislike using the blessed word Salafi due to the steriotype and they rebuke the rulers openly (which is not from the sunnah nor from the manhaj of the Salaf), who believe sincere scholars are locked up (have they ever thought why they are locked up), The solution for us all is to return, return to the true Islam as mentioned above. And stick to the scholars and not blogs like these. Which is causing far more disunity than unity. For those English speaking knowledge seekers stick to modrate Salafis like; Bilal Philips, Abu Usamah and so on.

    http://www.bilalphilips.com
    http://www.fatwa-online.com
    http://www.calltoislam.com
    http://www.islamicknowledge.co.uk
    http://www.salafimanhaj.com
    http://www.madeenah.com
    http://www.al-ibaanah.com
    http://www.al-manhaj.com

  144. Abu Abdullaah. He wrote:

    I hesitated posting a comment because I knew it would be a long response considering the various issues you presented that must be addressed. I also know some will only read half of it and then make baseless comments based on that but after reading some of the responses to this BLOG I think I should respond. Firstly, I must say Umar Lee, I was with you until you began to align yourself with certain groups and individuals.. Had you remained neutral it would have been better, more acceptable, and far less abstract. That being the case, I can understand somewhat how and why you feel the way you do. Let me start by saying that the title, “The rise and fall of the Salafee dawah in the US” is in my opinion incorrect. I believe it should be called “The rise and fall of Extremist Elements Amongst the Salafee Dawah in the US” and I will explain why in a minute. Salafiyyah is Islaam and when we say that the Salafee Dawah has fallen then you are saying that authentic Islaam has fallen and we know that is unquestionably false. Not only that, but you have given rise to the enemies of the methodology of the Salaf that are no doubt reading and rejoicing in your posts.

    Another important point that should be mentioned is that anyone who refers to Salafiyyah as a “movement” has in essence exposed himself and his level of understanding of what exactly Salafiyyah is and ultimately is. The peace activists, flower child wannabes, black revolutionaries and political rally pilgrims who entered into Islaam would definitely consider it a movement as they came from that sort of a background and have failed to wipe their hands free of that partisan mentality. Unfortunately this mentality existed and remains to exists within a vast majority of converts who were never given the proper tools to leave that baggage behind. What we’ve failed to adequately comprehend is that Allaah protects His religion from all evil – whether foreign or inherited – and ultimately the ranks must and will be purified. The only cure for such a problem is in fact Islaam practiced in its proper manner – Salafiyyah. So yes, that “movement” as you understood it fell. Every movement comes and goes hence the word “movement.” But Islaam and specifically its proper understanding – Salafiyyah has been here and shall remain here when we are long gone.

    Now one may say, “But we thought Salafiyyah was the answer and yet it provided none.” If that is the case then did you really learn Salafiyyah? As we look at the 90’s and early 2000’s we can say without a doubt that some of the tarbiyyah was flawed. Many of the western du’aat certainly did not focus on what we needed as converts and that was Tawheed and purification of the soul. This purification of the soul and developing a relationship with Allaah through proper understanding and implementation of Tawheed is the foundation or core that must exist before anything can be built. Not only should this have been the focus but we should have been prepared for the real world by being encouraged to get educated. Unfortunately, much of the focus of the 90’s and early 2000’s centered on the things that either mangled the foundation or diverted us from it all together. It was this type of tarbiyyah that led to the fitan that we witnessed over the last few years amongst the Salafees. It is important to also note that without the aforementioned foundation all individuals and groups crumble and not just Salafees. Because those who alleged the truth neglected this essential area other more dubious and underhanded groups (whether deviated Muslim sects or non-Muslim) became more inviting and subsequently filled the void.

    If you look at how Salafiyyah (Islaam) is implemented in Muslim countries, you see that it is not treated like a movement. In fact when you express it as a movement you are looked at as an idiot. It is practiced in its natural form in every facet of society as it is meant to be. Granted, we do not have the type of support mechanisms present in Muslim societies but do we blame Salafiyyah for this?

    Now about those extremists elements that I eluded to earlier? Well we were faced with two main extremist fronts that plagued the ranks of the Salafees. Both claimed Salafiyyah and both stood against the principles of the religion. Combined with their youthfulness, arrogance, ignorance of Islaam’s foundations and principles and the desire to be seen and heard they were led to what can be likened to a building with no foundation and as mentioned earlier that foundation must contain purification of the soul and Tawheed. When that bubble burst for whatever reason then of course you have what is referred to as falling off, burn out, or worse, apostasy – and we seek Allaah’s safety. The foundation was either faulty or non existent while issues – some complicated – were steadily being piled on. In the end the building came down like the WTC – Wallaahu Musta’aan

    Of course extremism in all forms is rejected by this flawless religion. The scholars of this Ummah have spoken about this time and time again. Islaam teaches moderation in all aspects of life. When you swerve from this natural inclination then you’ve opened the door to a weakness that can and will be exploited by the Shaytaan from amongst mankind and the jinn. Those who have deviated from both fronts were indeed extreme and because Allaah does not allow such extreme behavior to be attributed to His perfect religion they were eventually exposed and those who aligned themselves with THEM rather than the religion suffered alongside of them.

    So to say Salafiyyah fell is staunchly inaccurate. Rather the extremist “movements” and cliques that saturated its ranks fell. Whether it was the clique of hizbee political radicals such as Ali Tamimee and those associated with him who subtlety advocated takfeer under the guise of “social reform” using new eloquent political terms and methods or whether it was the ghulaat Haddadees associated with TROID, SP, or Philly or their wannabes in various states who used strong armed street tabloid sensationalized tactics. They all rose as a result of following individuals who were later exposed for their ignorance of the principles of the Salaf. On the side of Ali Tamimee was the unveiling of Safar Al-Hawali and Salman Al-Awdah and their contrapositive and counter productive methodology of subtle takfeer and on the side of the ghulaat were the likes Faalih Harbee and Fawzee Al-Atharee and others who deemed all those who opposed their methodology as either “unclear” or “off it.” In both instances the middle path was established firmly due to the scholars’ clarification of the truth. The likes of Shaykh Bin Baaz, Shaykh Muqbil, Shaykh Al-Jaamee, Shaykh Al-Albaanee, Shaykh Uthaymeen and others dealt with Safar and Salmaan and the likes of Shaykh Rabee, Shaykh Ahmed, Shaykh Ubaid, and others exposed the ghulaat. From both sides many repented sincerely to Allaah and embraced the truth but for those who used these groups and individuals as a crutch to justify their Islaam and radical ways then they fell along with them. Salafiyyah has indeed been clarified and the extremist elements therein fell. So it is by far better off than what it was under the regime of Abu Muslimah, better off than what is was under the umbrellas of IANA and QSS, and better off than what it was under the oppression of the Haddadees. So if you fell into further deviance or kufr as a result of that drama then its because Allaah says,

    “And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger (Muhammad) after the Right Path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers’ way. we shall keep Him In the Path He has chosen, and burn Him In Hell – what an evil destination.” (4:115)

    And He says,

    “And whoever defies and disobeys Allâh and his Messenger, Then Verily, Allâh is Severe In punishment.”(8:13)

    And if you felt sadness, loneliness, then it was probably because you fell into the verse where Allaah says,

    “But Whosoever turns away from My Reminder (i.e. neither believes In This Qur’aan nor acts on its orders, etc.) Verily, for Him is a life of hardship, and we shall raise Him up blind on the Day of Resurrection. He will say:”O My Lord! why have You raised Me up blind, while I had sight (before). (Allaah) will say: “Like this, Our Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) came unto you, but You disregarded them (i.e. You left them, did not think deeply In them, and You turned away from them), and so This day, You will be neglected (in the Hell-fire, away from Allaah’s Mercy).” (20:124-126)

    So let us as believers take hold of what we call “al-asbaab” or the real underlying reasons why these events occurred so that we can avoid them in the future.

    Ask yourself, were you really upon the manhaj of the Salaf or were you in alliance with a group or individual? Was your creed AND MANHAJ synonymous with that of the first three generations of Muslims or otherwise? Did you have doubt when clarity from the scholars came to you or were you firm and steadfast in trying to understand? If you had doubt and remained with your alliances and followed your desires then Allaah says,

    “It is for those who believe, a Guide and a healing. and as for those who disbelieve, there is heaviness (deafness) In their ears, and it (the Qur’aan) is blindness for them. they are those who are called from a place far away (so they neither listen nor understand).” (41:44)

    And

    “And we send down from the Qur’aan that which is a healing and a Mercy to those who believe (in Islaamic Monotheism and act on it), and it increases the Dhaalimoon (polytheists and wrong-doers) nothing but loss.” (42:82)

    So those who had doubt and uncertainty were led further from the truth.

    When the verses and narrations came to you where were you when the dust cleared? Were you relying solely and sincerely upon Allaah for guidance or were you STILL latched on to your alliances?

    If you dropped those hizbee alliances then know that Allaah says,
    “Then whoever follows My guidance shall neither Go astray, nor fall into distress and misery.” (20:123)

    And if not, then Allaah says,

    “And if the Truth had been In accordance with their desires, Verily, the heavens and the earth, and Whosoever is therein would have been corrupted! Nay, we have brought them their reminder, but they turn away from their reminder.” (23:71)

    When you disagreed about an affair where did you take it? Was it taken back to a group or individual that you were aligned with or back to Allaah and His Messenger (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) and those in authority from amongst us i.e. the Scholars?

    All of these questions are valid as it relates to one’s faith increasing for the better and decreasing for the worse. The more your imaan increases the greater your chances are at seeking knowledge (which in itself increases imaan) and the more knowledge you have of this religion the greater your chances are of fighting back some of those demons and social calamities that we are faced with.

    To actually see that individuals left the foundations of Islaam’s understanding for falsehood that can neither harm them or benefit them because of a band of misfits and youth is amazing to me but know that they fall into the verses mentioned above. Allaah is never unjust to anyone. Those are the paths they have chosen for themselves. And indeed Allaah has no need for us but we are in need of Him. I ask Allaah to increase my imaan and protect me from such a trial.
    Also, do we assumed that because we are Salafee that we received a “go to jannah free” card? Allaah clearly says,

    “Do you think that because you believe you shall not be tested?”

    Many do not understand that in order to purify the soul and strengthen one’s imaan they must be tested. This is the Sunnah of Allaah. And we know that the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) said, “If Allah wants to do good to somebody, He afflicts him with trials.” (Saheeh Bukhaaree)
    “You shall certainly be tried and tested in your possessions and in your personal selves; and ye shall certainly Hear much that will grieve you, from those who received the Book before you and from those who worship many gods. But if ye persevere patiently, and guard against evil,-then that will be a determining factor in all affairs. [3:186]

    “Everyone is going to taste death, and we shall make a trial of You with evil and with good, and to us You will be returned.”(21:35)

    So because you have claimed the truth it must be proven that you are in fact worthy of it and upon it. Either you are and your faith is increased with each trial you pass or you are simply another fraud in which case these tests and trails become a burden for you and you turn away. Either way, the ranks must be purified.

    Those who have allegedly fell off are a small group of people who have failed in their battle against the plots of the Shaytaan. This relentless enemy targets the strongest elements of a community by singling in on individual weaknesses. That being said and hopefully understood one needs to have the necessary weapons to fight such an enemy who continues his unwavering attack day and night. Sadly, those who relied on individual personalities and groups found them to be their only weapon. When those individuals fell they had no choice but to fall with them. Had their crutch been the Book and the Sunnah upon the understanding of the Salaf of this Ummah with SINCERITY then we would have seen a different outcome. Those who “fell off” did not fall off because of a sickness in another man’s heart but due to a sickness in their own hearts which eventually manifested itself when they turned away from the truth.

    To find that some people have left for Sufism and Kufr and blame Salafiyyah is simply hypocritical and indicative of people looking for a scapegoat for their weakness in religion as well as an excuse to be separatist in their ideology. I say hypocritical because we expect the kuffar not to judge us based on the actions of terrorists yet we do the same to one another. How does one move from darkness to light and back to darkness again except that the Shaytaan helps him in his journey?

    I can certainly sympathize for what some are feeling but as it stands, it has nothing to do with Salafiyyah. It is however a result of personal issues that brothers and sisters have within themselves as well as with others. Aligned with these personal issues is ignorance. As a result, of not knowing the truth and not returning to the people of knowledge, many have been led to THEIR own demise and ultimate downfall and indeed the lone sheep always gets devoured by the wolf.

    The misfortune and sadness that many have been plagued with is bound to occur as it is a part of life, human development and the life of the believer.
    “Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere, Who say, when afflicted with calamity: “To Allah We belong, and to Him is our return”:- They are those on whom (Descend) blessings from Allah, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance.” [2:155-157]

    These times will either make you or break you. Either it builds proper Islaamic character due to one’s patience and perseverance or it turns a man back upon the life he subconsciously enjoyed before Islaam. This dunyah is a prison for the believer and there is no happiness within it except that it comes from Islaam and Salafiyyah.

    So may Allaah bless those who remained steadfast in the times of fitan that befell the brothers in the US for indeed they are the sincere ones.

  145. Abu Abdullaah. He wrote:

    I hesitated posting a comment because I knew it would be a long response considering the various issues you presented that must be addressed. I also know some will only read half of it and then make baseless comments based on that but after reading some of the responses to this BLOG I think I should respond. Firstly, I must say Umar Lee, I was with you until you began to align yourself with certain groups and individuals.. Had you remained neutral it would have been better, more acceptable, and far less abstract. That being the case, I can understand somewhat how and why you feel the way you do. Let me start by saying that the title, “The rise and fall of the Salafee dawah in the US” is in my opinion incorrect. I believe it should be called “The rise and fall of Extremist Elements Amongst the Salafee Dawah in the US” and I will explain why in a minute. Salafiyyah is Islaam and when we say that the Salafee Dawah has fallen then you are saying that authentic Islaam has fallen and we know that is unquestionably false. Not only that, but you have given rise to the enemies of the methodology of the Salaf that are no doubt reading and rejoicing in your posts.

    Another important point that should be mentioned is that anyone who refers to Salafiyyah as a “movement” has in essence exposed himself and his level of understanding of what exactly Salafiyyah is and ultimately is. The peace activists, flower child wannabes, black revolutionaries and political rally pilgrims who entered into Islaam would definitely consider it a movement as they came from that sort of a background and have failed to wipe their hands free of that partisan mentality. Unfortunately this mentality existed and remains to exists within a vast majority of converts who were never given the proper tools to leave that baggage behind. What we’ve failed to adequately comprehend is that Allaah protects His religion from all evil – whether foreign or inherited – and ultimately the ranks must and will be purified. The only cure for such a problem is in fact Islaam practiced in its proper manner – Salafiyyah. So yes, that “movement” as you understood it fell. Every movement comes and goes hence the word “movement.” But Islaam and specifically its proper understanding – Salafiyyah has been here and shall remain here when we are long gone.

    Now one may say, “But we thought Salafiyyah was the answer and yet it provided none.” If that is the case then did you really learn Salafiyyah? As we look at the 90’s and early 2000’s we can say without a doubt that some of the tarbiyyah was flawed. Many of the western du’aat certainly did not focus on what we needed as converts and that was Tawheed and purification of the soul. This purification of the soul and developing a relationship with Allaah through proper understanding and implementation of Tawheed is the foundation or core that must exist before anything can be built. Not only should this have been the focus but we should have been prepared for the real world by being encouraged to get educated. Unfortunately, much of the focus of the 90’s and early 2000’s centered on the things that either mangled the foundation or diverted us from it all together. It was this type of tarbiyyah that led to the fitan that we witnessed over the last few years amongst the Salafees. It is important to also note that without the aforementioned foundation all individuals and groups crumble and not just Salafees. Because those who alleged the truth neglected this essential area other more dubious and underhanded groups (whether deviated Muslim sects or non-Muslim) became more inviting and subsequently filled the void.

    If you look at how Salafiyyah (Islaam) is implemented in Muslim countries, you see that it is not treated like a movement. In fact when you express it as a movement you are looked at as an idiot. It is practiced in its natural form in every facet of society as it is meant to be. Granted, we do not have the type of support mechanisms present in Muslim societies but do we blame Salafiyyah for this?

    Now about those extremists elements that I eluded to earlier? Well we were faced with two main extremist fronts that plagued the ranks of the Salafees. Both claimed Salafiyyah and both stood against the principles of the religion. Combined with their youthfulness, arrogance, ignorance of Islaam’s foundations and principles and the desire to be seen and heard they were led to what can be likened to a building with no foundation and as mentioned earlier that foundation must contain purification of the soul and Tawheed. When that bubble burst for whatever reason then of course you have what is referred to as falling off, burn out, or worse, apostasy – and we seek Allaah’s safety. The foundation was either faulty or non existent while issues – some complicated – were steadily being piled on. In the end the building came down like the WTC – Wallaahu Musta’aan

    Of course extremism in all forms is rejected by this flawless religion. The scholars of this Ummah have spoken about this time and time again. Islaam teaches moderation in all aspects of life. When you swerve from this natural inclination then you’ve opened the door to a weakness that can and will be exploited by the Shaytaan from amongst mankind and the jinn. Those who have deviated from both fronts were indeed extreme and because Allaah does not allow such extreme behavior to be attributed to His perfect religion they were eventually exposed and those who aligned themselves with THEM rather than the religion suffered alongside of them.

    So to say Salafiyyah fell is staunchly inaccurate. Rather the extremist “movements” and cliques that saturated its ranks fell. Whether it was the clique of hizbee political radicals such as Ali Tamimee and those associated with him who subtlety advocated takfeer under the guise of “social reform” using new eloquent political terms and methods or whether it was the ghulaat Haddadees associated with TROID, SP, or Philly or their wannabes in various states who used strong armed street tabloid sensationalized tactics. They all rose as a result of following individuals who were later exposed for their ignorance of the principles of the Salaf. On the side of Ali Tamimee was the unveiling of Safar Al-Hawali and Salman Al-Awdah and their contrapositive and counter productive methodology of subtle takfeer and on the side of the ghulaat were the likes Faalih Harbee and Fawzee Al-Atharee and others who deemed all those who opposed their methodology as either “unclear” or “off it.” In both instances the middle path was established firmly due to the scholars’ clarification of the truth. The likes of Shaykh Bin Baaz, Shaykh Muqbil, Shaykh Al-Jaamee, Shaykh Al-Albaanee, Shaykh Uthaymeen and others dealt with Safar and Salmaan and the likes of Shaykh Rabee, Shaykh Ahmed, Shaykh Ubaid, and others exposed the ghulaat. From both sides many repented sincerely to Allaah and embraced the truth but for those who used these groups and individuals as a crutch to justify their Islaam and radical ways then they fell along with them. Salafiyyah has indeed been clarified and the extremist elements therein fell. So it is by far better off than what it was under the regime of Abu Muslimah, better off than what is was under the umbrellas of IANA and QSS, and better off than what it was under the oppression of the Haddadees. So if you fell into further deviance or kufr as a result of that drama then its because Allaah says,

    “And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger (Muhammad) after the Right Path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers’ way. we shall keep Him In the Path He has chosen, and burn Him In Hell – what an evil destination.” (4:115)

    And He says,

    “And whoever defies and disobeys Allâh and his Messenger, Then Verily, Allâh is Severe In punishment.”(8:13)

    And if you felt sadness, loneliness, then it was probably because you fell into the verse where Allaah says,

    “But Whosoever turns away from My Reminder (i.e. neither believes In This Qur’aan nor acts on its orders, etc.) Verily, for Him is a life of hardship, and we shall raise Him up blind on the Day of Resurrection. He will say:”O My Lord! why have You raised Me up blind, while I had sight (before). (Allaah) will say: “Like this, Our Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) came unto you, but You disregarded them (i.e. You left them, did not think deeply In them, and You turned away from them), and so This day, You will be neglected (in the Hell-fire, away from Allaah’s Mercy).” (20:124-126)

    So let us as believers take hold of what we call “al-asbaab” or the real underlying reasons why these events occurred so that we can avoid them in the future.

    Ask yourself, were you really upon the manhaj of the Salaf or were you in alliance with a group or individual? Was your creed AND MANHAJ synonymous with that of the first three generations of Muslims or otherwise? Did you have doubt when clarity from the scholars came to you or were you firm and steadfast in trying to understand? If you had doubt and remained with your alliances and followed your desires then Allaah says,

    “It is for those who believe, a Guide and a healing. and as for those who disbelieve, there is heaviness (deafness) In their ears, and it (the Qur’aan) is blindness for them. they are those who are called from a place far away (so they neither listen nor understand).” (41:44)

    And

    “And we send down from the Qur’aan that which is a healing and a Mercy to those who believe (in Islaamic Monotheism and act on it), and it increases the Dhaalimoon (polytheists and wrong-doers) nothing but loss.” (42:82)

    So those who had doubt and uncertainty were led further from the truth.

    When the verses and narrations came to you where were you when the dust cleared? Were you relying solely and sincerely upon Allaah for guidance or were you STILL latched on to your alliances?

    If you dropped those hizbee alliances then know that Allaah says,
    “Then whoever follows My guidance shall neither Go astray, nor fall into distress and misery.” (20:123)

    And if not, then Allaah says,

    “And if the Truth had been In accordance with their desires, Verily, the heavens and the earth, and Whosoever is therein would have been corrupted! Nay, we have brought them their reminder, but they turn away from their reminder.” (23:71)

    When you disagreed about an affair where did you take it? Was it taken back to a group or individual that you were aligned with or back to Allaah and His Messenger (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) and those in authority from amongst us i.e. the Scholars?

    All of these questions are valid as it relates to one’s faith increasing for the better and decreasing for the worse. The more your imaan increases the greater your chances are at seeking knowledge (which in itself increases imaan) and the more knowledge you have of this religion the greater your chances are of fighting back some of those demons and social calamities that we are faced with.

    To actually see that individuals left the foundations of Islaam’s understanding for falsehood that can neither harm them or benefit them because of a band of misfits and youth is amazing to me but know that they fall into the verses mentioned above. Allaah is never unjust to anyone. Those are the paths they have chosen for themselves. And indeed Allaah has no need for us but we are in need of Him. I ask Allaah to increase my imaan and protect me from such a trial.
    Also, do we assumed that because we are Salafee that we received a “go to jannah free” card? Allaah clearly says,

    “Do you think that because you believe you shall not be tested?”

    Many do not understand that in order to purify the soul and strengthen one’s imaan they must be tested. This is the Sunnah of Allaah. And we know that the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) said, “If Allah wants to do good to somebody, He afflicts him with trials.” (Saheeh Bukhaaree)
    “You shall certainly be tried and tested in your possessions and in your personal selves; and ye shall certainly Hear much that will grieve you, from those who received the Book before you and from those who worship many gods. But if ye persevere patiently, and guard against evil,-then that will be a determining factor in all affairs. [3:186]

    “Everyone is going to taste death, and we shall make a trial of You with evil and with good, and to us You will be returned.”(21:35)

    So because you have claimed the truth it must be proven that you are in fact worthy of it and upon it. Either you are and your faith is increased with each trial you pass or you are simply another fraud in which case these tests and trails become a burden for you and you turn away. Either way, the ranks must be purified.

    Those who have allegedly fell off are a small group of people who have failed in their battle against the plots of the Shaytaan. This relentless enemy targets the strongest elements of a community by singling in on individual weaknesses. That being said and hopefully understood one needs to have the necessary weapons to fight such an enemy who continues his unwavering attack day and night. Sadly, those who relied on individual personalities and groups found them to be their only weapon. When those individuals fell they had no choice but to fall with them. Had their crutch been the Book and the Sunnah upon the understanding of the Salaf of this Ummah with SINCERITY then we would have seen a different outcome. Those who “fell off” did not fall off because of a sickness in another man’s heart but due to a sickness in their own hearts which eventually manifested itself when they turned away from the truth.

    To find that some people have left for Sufism and Kufr and blame Salafiyyah is simply hypocritical and indicative of people looking for a scapegoat for their weakness in religion as well as an excuse to be separatist in their ideology. I say hypocritical because we expect the kuffar not to judge us based on the actions of terrorists yet we do the same to one another. How does one move from darkness to light and back to darkness again except that the Shaytaan helps him in his journey?

    I can certainly sympathize for what some are feeling but as it stands, it has nothing to do with Salafiyyah. It is however a result of personal issues that brothers and sisters have within themselves as well as with others. Aligned with these personal issues is ignorance. As a result, of not knowing the truth and not returning to the people of knowledge, many have been led to THEIR own demise and ultimate downfall and indeed the lone sheep always gets devoured by the wolf.

    The misfortune and sadness that many have been plagued with is bound to occur as it is a part of life, human development and the life of the believer.
    “Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere, Who say, when afflicted with calamity: “To Allah We belong, and to Him is our return”:- They are those on whom (Descend) blessings from Allah, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance.” [2:155-157]

    These times will either make you or break you. Either it builds proper Islaamic character due to one’s patience and perseverance or it turns a man back upon the life he subconsciously enjoyed before Islaam. This dunyah is a prison for the believer and there is no happiness within it except that it comes from Islaam and Salafiyyah.

    So may Allaah bless those who remained steadfast in the times of fitan that befell the brothers in the US for indeed they are the sincere ones.

  146. yaaaaaaaaawn.

    typical good old madkhali brainwashing tactics –

    talafi Madkhali: repeat after me….

    we are salafi
    we are saved
    we have ilm
    we undersatnd according to the salaf
    we follow the salaf
    we are pure
    we are faultless
    we are the best
    everyones a deviant
    only visit our websites

    and again all together now…..

    we are salafi
    we are saved
    we have ilm
    we undersatnd according to the salaf
    we follow the salaf
    we are pure
    we are faultless
    we are the best
    everyones a deviant
    only visit our websites

    one more time all together now…..

    we are salafi
    we are saved
    we have ilm
    we undersatnd according to the salaf
    we follow the salaf
    we are pure
    we are faultless
    we are the best
    everyones a deviant
    only visit our websites

    and again…………

  147. Yousuf Adam, we can see your ignorance.
    Go find out what is madhkhali and if you are referring to Shaykh Rabee find out who he is and what the scholars of the Sunnah have said about him. And if he does or does not ascribe to the harsh salafis.

  148. Yousuf Adam, we can see your ignorance.
    Go find out what is madhkhali and if you are referring to Shaykh Rabee find out who he is and what the scholars of the Sunnah have said about him. And if he does or does not ascribe to the harsh salafis.

  149. Umar, I was agreeing with you until you went off the rail, when you started to side with the extremism of the political radicals who were wearing the gown of Salafiyah, yet inciting people to rebel against Muslim rulers (going against the sunnah and manhajus salaf).

    Secondly, you need to look at yourself before writing on the affairs of Muslims as you have not grased an understanding of the Salafi Dawah, refering to it as a ‘movement’ a gross error. Another gross error is that you stated it rose in the 90’s and fell in the year 2000. Whereas the salafiyah is nothing but the true, pure Islam. Which was around and will always be around. Only the extreme elements that ascribe to it, will fall and be exposed by the Ulamah.

    Thirdly; you need to take yourself to account before death approaches. According to what I’ve read from your profile, you listen to music and watch movies etc. These are sin are forbidden in Islaam. You you are confused, was with the Salafis at the beginng only for brother/socialisation and nothing but that. Ask yourself what were you learning? was you sincere? was it not better for you to take the moderate path?
    These blogs are no benefit, talking about individual experiences. Use your time people with beneficial things. If you wish to learn from wesite from time to time, then learn from beneficial sites; such;

    http://www.al-ibaanah.com
    http://www.bilalphilips.com
    http://www.calltoislam.com
    http://www.islamicknowledge.co.uk
    http://www.madeenah.com
    http://www.fatwa-online.com
    etc.etc.

  150. Dont you people learn that pages and pages of Pure BS-whether from ‘not for real’ Ali Sherman or SalafeeMethod (can you believe these guys?)- dont get you anywhere?

    Yeesh-you’d think people would’ve learnt from the debacle of the PDF fatwa era-that the number of pages doesnt make you right, or the lack of doesnt make you wrong!

    And all these pages and pages of worthless discussion-over trivial issues like ‘women who dont want sunnah in the house’-c’mon you take this crap seriously???

    Get real-go out and work, or read some fatihah if working is to haraam for you, or if the quran is too close to ‘salafi’ then read some bukhaari-or heck-just talk to a christian about islam if its all to reminiscent of “bash on your head” islam… oh wait-i forgot-dawah is a dirty word. Ok-just go to sleep-last I heard that was a sinless activity-DANG-I made you miss fajr…. again!!!

    And people… please-get off from publicising your ‘version’ of salafiyya thru those websites and links-what happens when they go out of flavour?

    Whoever seeks the truth will find it-inshallah,

    ………their version of it at least

    ….or not

    ….oh heck-i just sent a few more to the fire

  151. Assalamu Alikum Warahmatullah

    Shaykh Ibn Uthaimeen said:

    “Thus, Salafiyyah that is taken to mean a special party (Hizb) with specific rules whose members consider anyone who differs with them as astray then they have nothing to do with Salafiyyah” [Allama Ibn Uthaymeen, Liqaa-al-Baab al-Maftooh Q # 1322]

    The confusion and subsequent fitan that has the struck the ranks of salafiyah came from two internal waves of deviation, both of which have made their own rules to what is “salafiyah” and anyone that disagrees with them or does not promote their “websites” is casted out, they are:

    1. The Irjaa Movement (those who belittle Hakamiyah, Jihaad, Politics, and who see aliegence to the saudi throne a matter of tawheed etc)
    2. The Haddadi Movement (those who went to extremes in tabdee, they also have irjaa)

    Sometime both these movements will clash with each other and other times they are found together.

    The ulema and the well known da’ees of the west such as Ali Tamimi (May Allah (swt) Hasten his release) have spoken about this internal threat more than a decade ago. But we continue to see the propogaters of these internal “movements” still being promoted? – all under the guise of “moderate” or “clear” salafis!!

    In the beneficial lecture “Advice to the UK Salafis by ‘Ali at-Tamimi”
    http://www.islamicawakening.com/playaudio.php?audioID=15&

    Here Ali Tamimi clarifies some of the important principles of Salafi Da’wah that have been misundertood and misapplied by many, either due to ignorance or a hidden agenda. This is a very beneficial lecture and shows the insight Ali Tamimi had with regards to the fitna that was growing.

    And we see these internal “movements” label the mainstream salafi who disagree with them – “political radicals”? Did not they read what Shaykh Muqbil Ibn Hadee Al Wadee said in – “Tarjumah Abee Abdur Rahaman Muqbil Bin Hadee Al Wadee” (pg 135-142):

    “18. We beleive politics is part of the Religion, and those who try to seperate the Religion from politics are only attempting to destroy the Religion and to spread chaos. Likewise, what has been spread in some of the Islaamic countries that, “The Religion is for Allah, but the state is for the people”, it is a call of jaahiliyah. Rather, everything must be for Allah.” (end of quote)

    Both these “inner movements” pre-occupy the youth in tabdee and conflicts with Muslims and blind them of the onslaught of the Kuffar, which adds speculation of a hidden agenda.

    “I entered upon al-Ma`moon, so he said: ‘How have you awoken oh Nidr?’ So I said: ‘In goodness, oh Ameer al-Mu`mineen’ He asked: ‘What is irjaa`?’ I replied: ‘A religion that agrees with the Kings, they gain from the dunya with it, and lose from their religion’ So he said: ‘You have spoken the truth’” [al-Bidaayah wan-Nihaayah of al-Haafith Ibn Katheer, vol. 10/276]

    But it can be safely said – both these baatil movemetns are now bunkrupt to such an extent – we can see their adherents rattled by an article on a “blog”!!!

  152. Assalamu Alikum

    In order for us to rectify we must purify ourselves from irjaa and any remnants of it and ghuloo in manhaj, below are some beneficial words of Ali Tamimi regarding the “hidden internal movement of fasad”:

    Murjia and Not Salafis
    ‘Ali al-Timimi

    as-Salamu alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu:

    al-Hamdulillah was-Salatu was-Salamu ala Rasulillah:

    Over the past few years I have written in this forum on a few occasions in defense of the aqida of Ahl as-Sunna from the onslaught of this contemporary movement of Irja’ that disguises itself as Salafiya. (Indeed, the fatwa by the Permanent Council last year against the book written by Murad Shukri refers to this group espousing Irja’ as calling themselves the Salafis of Jordan.)

    The “rabid” (in reference to the hadith of the 73 groups which describes the spreading of desires amongst them as a person bitten by a rabid dog penetrating every joint and vein.) followers of this group in the West – many of them not possessing either knowledge of Arabic or sharia sciences – have over the years claimed many things about me: from forging Sh Ibn Baz’s signature to the Kuwaiti declaration (which I translated and read in the lecture entitled a Word of Advice to the Salafis of the UK) to more recently being an agent of the US government and an associate of Kabbani in fighting Ahl as-Sunna.

    Many times brothers and sisters have contacted me asking me to defend myself and rebut these allegations. I would remind them that first of all none of us youth should defend himself as none of those involved – especially me – are of any importance to be a topic of discussion let alone to go about defending one’s self. Secondly, that we should be people of the manhaj of Ahl as-Sunna.

    This manhaj means that we defend the aqeeda as it is aqeeda and not because it is esposued by certain personalities.

    Secondly, this manhaj means that we recognize the truth because it is truth not because so and so said it. And hence we should double and redouble efforts in learning our religion.

    Thirdly, part of this manhaj is not arguing with Ahl al-Bid’a. If we recognize that those who we are in dispute with are not from Ahl as-Sunna in these matters then we should not argue with them but rather present the truth clearly and with good manners (something which they do not display.)

    Fourthly, it is only a matter of time before the truth becomes manifest. If we are upon the truth then we should be certain that this truth will become apparent as falsehood by Divine decree must vanish and only the truth must remain.

    This latest fatwa by the Permanent Council against the book by al-Anbari is just further proof to the above and is part of a chain of evidences against this group. Among the more notable evidences:

    1. Sh Bakr Abu Zaid’s letter against Sh Rabi’ al-Madkhali’s book against Sayyid Qutb in which he cautions Sh Rabi not to pass out his good deeds by twisting the words of the dead.
    2. Sh Ibn Jibrin’s fatwa against Sh Rabi’s works against both Sayyid Qutb and Abdurrahman Abdulkhaliq in which he reminds us that Ibn Baz interceded for Sayyid Qutb that he not be executed.
    3. The tape by Sh al-Albani regarding Sayyid Qutb in which Sh al-Albani mentions that parts of Sayyid Qutb’s tafseer where Divinely inspired and that all Salafis should read a chapter of Milestones and his description of Sh Rabi’s book against Sayyid Qutb (when a passage of which was read to him) as ignorance.
    4. The econium of Sh Ibn Baz to the declaration of the Kuwaiti students of knowledge.
    5. The econium of Sh Ibn Baz to Sh Abdurrahman Abdul-Khaliq’s book as-Sirat in which Sh Ibn baz calls for the printing and distribution of the book even though the book has a section entitled Tawhid al-Hukm.
    6. The fatwa by The Permanent Council against Murad Shukri’s book Ihkam at-Taqrir describing the book as passing off the beliefs of the astray Murji’a as those of the Salaf and Ahl as-Sunna and calling its author and publisher (Ali al-Halabi) to repent and banning the distribution of the book.
    7. The latest fatwa by The Permanent Council against al-Anbari’s book.
    8. Sh al-Albani’s agreement with Sh Salman al-Awda’s distinction between al-Firqa an-Najiya and at-Ta’ifa al-Mansura. This issue which is one of ijtihad was used by Sh Rabi to write a whole book against Sh Salman.
    9. The book al-Insaf by Sh Bakr Abu Zaid against this group’s attack of the scholars and the du’at.

    And much, much more… which I have decided not to mention out of consideration of this already lengthy e-mail as it is.

    Truly this group is as they have been described:
    They are Khawarij with regards to the du’at (preachers); Murji’a with regards to the rulers; Rafida with regards to the jamaa’at (Islamic groups); and Qadariya with regards to the Jews, Christians, and infidels.

    I ask my brothers and sisters who have fallen into this fitna that they reconsider some of their positions and repent from these astray beliefs. I also request of my brothers and sisters who have been preserved from this fitna not to rejoice at the error of their brethren but rather to thank Allah for guiding them and use this opportunity to wisely and gently bring our brothers back to the truth. Let us not forget that the overwhelming majority of these brothers/sisters remain staunch supporters of tawhid and sunna who have been deluded into this fitna thinking that they are defending Allah’s religion. While in reality they are only defending a throne which cares less for them or their leaders. May Allah forgive us our transgressions and bring us to His Truth gently.

    Akhookum,

    Ali

    PS. Re: The book recently condemned by The Permanent Council was used extensively by Ali al-Halabi in his book at-Tahdhir min Fitna at-Takfir. When Dr Abu Ruhayyam debated him (in that infamous tape where you hear Ali al-Halabi shouting), Abu Ruhayyam wrote a small booklet entitled Tahdhir al-Umma min Ta’liqat al-Halabi ala Aqwal al-A’imma (A warning to the umma regarding the remarks appended by al-Halabi to the statements of the scholars.)

    Ali al-Halabi in his defense two short essays and a lengthy book entitled Saiha Nadhir bi Khatir at-Takfir (A Warning Shout regarding the Danger of Takfir), in which he admits the following:

    1. He says (footnote to page 6) his original book “Tahdhir al-Umma” was reviewed by many among whom “al-Akh ash-Shaikh Murad Shukri.”

    This is interesting as when the fatwa came out last year by the Permanent Council condemning Murad Shukri’s book on Takfir (Ihkam at-Taqrir) as hiding the beliefs of the Murji’a under the guise of Ahl as-Sunna and the Salaf and further banning the book and requesting the author and the printer (Ali al-Halabi) to repent. Ali al-Halabi remarked that he made a mistake by printing this book and giving this unknown, i.e. Murad Shukri, a platform. let us not forget that Ali al-Halabi not only printed the book but wrote an econium to it. Moreover, by his own admission, cited above he had Murad Shukri read and review his own book on Takfir. Hence, the question that should be asked if Murad Shukri was an unknown then why is he reviewing Ali al-Halabi’s book? Obviously the relationship is even deeper.

    2. Regarding the current book condemned by The Permanent Council, al-Anbari’s al-Hukm bi Ghayr Ma Anzal Allah wa Usul at-Takfir (Judging by other than what Allah has sent down and the fundamentals of charging a Muslim an infidel), al-Halabi also writes in his book Saiha an-Nadhir (p. 52), “our meritorious brother, Abu Muhammad Khalid ibn Ali al-Anbari may Allah give him success in his enjoyable book, al-Hukm bi Ghayr Ma Anzal Allah wa Usul at-Takfir.” And then in the note on that page, al-Halabi writes, “It is a great, useful, and enjoyable book which I quoted from a number of times in at-Tahdhir.”

    3. On the note to page 93, al-Halabi cites in full Abdullah as-Sabt’s editorial which appeared in the now defunct newspaper al-Muslimun (26 Dhul-Qadah, 1417 AH, issue no. 635) entitled Kalimat Haqq Urida biha Batil (A true word used for falsehood). He refers to Abdullah as-Sabt as “ash-Shaikh Abdullah as-Sabt may Allah grant him success.”

    The point is that Abdullah as-Sabt’s editorial was written against Sh Abdurrahman Abdulkhaliq’s book as-Sirat. as-Sabt used Ali b. Abi Talib’s statement “A true word used for falsehood,” which was said when the Khawarij called for Judgment belonging to Allah alone in reference to Quranic aya. This was said by them regarding the human arbitration to end the dispute between Ali and Mu’awiya (may Allah be pleased with them both). Hence Abdullah as-Sabt’s imagery is that like the first Khawarij is Abdurrahman Abdulkhaliq. However, we all know that Sh Ibn Baz – may Allah be merciful with him – just prior to his death praised as-Sirat and called for its printing and distribution. This would imply that either Ibn Baz is himself among the Khawarij if Abdullah as-Sabt;s reasoning is wrong or Abdullah as-Sabt himself is not upon the Sunna in this matter.

    I write these words as a few years ago when one of the extreme followers of this group defended its position using this book and Ali al-Halabi’s book, I pointed out – wa lillahil-hamd – that both books deviated and twisted the statements of the scholars. Well here is the Permanent Council’s fatwa against the source book. It is only a matter of time that the second book to receives public condemnation from Ahl as-Sunna. Even though Dr Abu Ruhayyam’s two essays are sufficient for those who discern the truth by the Quran and Sunna and not by the statements of those who see the truth only through the eyes of those whom they blindly follow.

    And Allah knows best.

  153. blah blah blah… blah blah… you’re so full of yourselves-same ol same ol regurgitated essays and articles-totally irrelevant and pumping this hizb or that-whats the difference between the “madkhalis” or your kind?

    Abdul Malik and “let the healing begin” – do you think that by resurrecting the issues/articles/refutations of 8 or 10 years ago is going to solve anything today?

    What healing? by opening old wounds? by drawing the same ol lines? ‘This is “us” and that is “them”‘.

    Really-no difference between you lot and the SP/TORIDers – maybe one has better akhlaq than the other-but thats about it-after that its all ideological bullying and throwing this fatwa and that name at the people to make them kowtow to “your” hizb. (what use labels when a person is still uncertain about their islam?) “Hakimiyyah this, qutubee/madkhali that! bin baz said so, rabee said so, albani said so, halabi said so” see? whats the difference? oh and by the way-how come you take the lead of the permanent committee when it suits you and discard it when it dont? you’re as shallow and hypocritical as those whom you revile in that last article (same ol same ol)

    How about getting back to the point-its 2007 (not 1997), theres people who are not in denial (on either side of the debate) – they just want to get on with their lives as muslims (salafee or not salafee is pretty irrelevant at this stage-so stop labeling this or that-pseduo or otherwise-murjia, takfeeri, suroori, oh yeah-and the best yet-‘CIA agent’ in the guise of salafee-how about muslim in the guise of salafi? strange concept-isn’t it?). Yeah-the non grave worshipping and non shia kind of muslim-the praying 5 times a day muslim.

    They (the rank and file/common man/ non ‘oh you great’ students of knowledge (what pretensions!)) want to get on as a community, as living human beings who want to avoid the fire and save their families from it and at the same time survive the increasingly hostile dunya around them. You REALLY believe they care what the Kuwait declaration was? thats as relevant today to us as the Nuremberg trials… i.e. zilch!!

    Forum jockeys and internet sheikhs, all that advise all that cut and paste-refute this and refute that, at the end you speak of that which you have no right to delve into-by your own standards-its the realm of the ulema-not just anyone who can type and has a computer or internet access.

  154. Divorce, a Wide Spread Habit in America
    Shaykh Muqbil ibn Haadee al-Waadi’ee
    Reference: Tuhfatul Mujeeb ‘alaa Asilat al Haadir wal Ghareeb p.131
    Trans: Nadir Ahmad, Abu Abdul-Waahid
    http://www.madeenah.com
    (from America): There is a bad habit that has spread amongst the brothers who are upon the Sunnah, and it is that some of them get married, and after a few days an argument breaks out between the married couple, and the news of this argument spreads and other brothers encourage the husband to divorce his wife. And this has reached the point where there is a sister that has been divorced fourteen times. And this is something that is wide spread, and there is no one from amongst the people of knowledge to return to in this matter, so what do you advise us with?
    What I advice the brothers with is what the messenger of Allaah صلى الله عليه و سلم said:
    “A believing man does not hate a believing woman, if there is a certain characteristic that he dislikes about her, then there is another characteristic that he is pleased with.”
    And what was narrated in Saheeh Al Bukharee and Muslim on the authority of Abu Hurayrah that the messenger of Allaah صلى الله عليه و سلم said:
    “Be good/kind to women, for indeed they were created from a curved rib, and the most curved part of a rib is the upper most part of it, and if try to straighten it, you will break it, and if you leave it, it will stay curved. So be good/kind to women.”
    And the messenger of Allaah صلى الله عليه و سلم also said:
    “Indeed the woman was created from a rib, and she will not be straightened out for you, so if you enjoy [your relationship with] her, then you will be doing so while she has ‘iwaj (crookedness), and if you try to straighten her out, you will break her, and breaking her is divorcing her.”
    And the messenger of Allaah says:
    “I have never seen anyone with a deficiency of ‘aql (intellect -meaning the witness of two women is equal to the witness of one man.”
    An Nawawee said: “meaning they have weak memories) and deen (religion –meaning they do not pray or fast during their menses) that are more overpowering to men than one of you [women].”
    So the deficiency of ‘aql and deen is something that is always present with a lot of women.
    Allaah ‘az wa jal says in his noble book:
    {And live with them with ma’roof (kindness/niceness} And He says {Men are the protectors and maintainers of women, because Allaah has made one of them to excel the other, and because they spend from their means [to support them]. Therefore the Saalihaat (righteous women) Qaanitaat (devoutly obedient women [to Allaah and to their husbands]), and those who guard in their husband’s absence that which Allaah orders them to guard (e.g. their chastity, their husbands property…) And as for those women on whose part you see ill conduct, admonish them [first], [next] refuse to share their beds and [last] hit them [lightly if it is useful] but if they return to obedience, do not seek any means [of annoyance] against them surely Allaah is ever most high, most great.}
    So if it [divorce] is because of bad manners then he should be patient. However if she is not chaste then he should separate himself from her. Allaah subhaanahu wa ta’aala says {The Zanee (adulterer/fornicator) doesn’t marry except a zaaneeyah (adultress/fornicatress) or a mushrikah, and the zaneeyah doesn’t marry except a zanee And that is forbidden to the believers.}
    And [one should keep in mind] that she is in a land of luxury, a land of sins and evil deeds, and she will not find anyone to help her in matters of her deen, not to mention matters of khayr (good). So if Allaah guides this woman through you, then this is better for you than the best of camels.

  155. Salaam-

    Why has the shaykh not refered to the men in question and disparage their actions as it seems the problem lies with them ( the hit and run nonsense). I dont think this type of advice will encourage these Muslim men to become better husbands. As the real issues at hand are not addressed no wonder salafi men are notoriously known as horrible husbands thier shuyookh refuse to educate these men about the correct islamic view on marital relations i.e- the husband is commanded to Maintain and protect, treat kindly etc
    Rather than laying all the problems at the door of the woman- Subhanllah thats just Sad.

  156. Exactly-but you need to realise that Shaykh Muqbil ibn Haadee al-Waadi’ee passed away a while ago. Also-you may be able to tell-this is a translation. Now-I wonder-how was the question framed to the sheikh (in arabic-“oh those rebellious american feminist women-they just marry and divorce on a whim”-tell me I am wrong)? what context was it presented it-to elicit a ‘favourable’ reply from the sheikh – was it right after a dars on the ‘fitnah of women’ or something similar? :P

    Oh wait-then theres the kind of questioner who wouldn’t bother to add that its the men and not the women who are the travelling marriage circus, or that its the men who chose the women who they divorce in the first place! who pointed a gun at you mate? (why marry her if you’re gonna complain about how ‘she dont do the sunnah on the house’? – did you not know that its the right of the children that a man marry the appropriate woman? Oh-i forgot-the ‘great’ daiees dont need rights and duties applied on them other than ‘studying’ ‘knowledge’ – oh-they study barbahari without even memorising one juz-what a farce!)

    Then we have to consider that the question didn’t mention that the men do not live up to their responsibilities (now lets not get into intentions here) but it sure as hell does sound like a hit and run to me-mutaa-legalised zina-one way street “I get pleasure-I do not take responsibility for the woman or the kids or whatever else I am supposed to do to make this woman halal to me”

    heck-how many even forego the requirements like wali, (suitable) mahr, WITNESSES.

    Yes-the women get into it knowingly-but theres a REASON behind the REQUIREMENT of a wali! coz they cant and wont and are not capable of entirely deciding whether the marriage would be a good thing for them or not.

    “But HEY-its this GREAT BIG MACHO AMAZING SALAFEE Daiee and YOU dont want to COOPERATE in doing the HALAL??? YOU EVIL ZIONIST FEMINIST!!!! shame on YOU! YOU will DRIVE them to zina and the sin of the entire community will be on YOUR HEAD-HOME Breaker(?????!!!) ;)”

    this joke fest will ne’er end-ignore them and they will keep poking you. just make duaa to be spared their brain dead comments/cut’n paste jobs/fataawa on the fly and making halal whatever they can to pump up their hizb and egos.

  157. If these brothers who claimed Sunnah and Salafiyah and still are; but yet they do not fufill the rights of the wife/wives then they are sinning and doing oppression upon the woman.
    If they cant afford to have more than one than why are they marrying more than one. If they married someone with good intention and some time later it did’nt work out; then divorse is understandeble. But, to marry and within weeks or months the husband just for a small defect upon the wife divorces her, then this is not correct and being hasty. Thats why a brother may have married more than 10 times! But, whatever the social problem we do not blame it on the teachings of the Salafi Dawah nor do we say that scholars do not teach the manner with ones wife, this is a slander. Rather we blame the individual concerned.

  158. yeah-dont blame the scholars, or those providing tarbiyyah, or those responsible for the communities or the ummah, blame the individuals-the whole lot of individuals such that it becomes an epidemic and they are still using the words of the scholars to defend their actions (scroll up)!!! get real man-the scholars should recognise the mistakes and problems and rectify them.

    Stop acting like they are not men, stop acting like they (the scholars) dont make mistakes. isn’t this where all the arrogance and aggression of the ghulaat came from in the first place?

  159. Something I came accross on Salafitalk about a certain Abdur Raheem Green:

    “During his visit, I remember being relatively new to salafiyyah, we were discussing ways of calling the kuffar to Islaam. Green mentioned that he plays football in London with some kuffar (as a mode of da’wah). This is something which seemed strange seeing that sports + kuffar = swearing and foul behaviour. I told him that this wasn’t from the manhaj to which he argued (with qiyaas) to no end.

    May Allaah save us from the ignorant ones who love to speak without knowledge…”

    I mean, how petty and rediculous is it to assert that because he used soccer as a means to get close to and perhaps guide some non-muslims he is somehow ‘dodgy’ – ok, there may be other things that they have against him, but to use this as another ‘example’ to bash him or anyone for that matter is just plain childish IMO and reeks of self-righteousness…

    I’m glad I left all this BS years ago…

  160. Angry Salafi; why are you so Angry!
    The Scholars learn, act, teach and it is up to individuals to learn and act. If their teachings does not change the manners and behaviour of individuals that claim Salafiyah, they will not be held responsible, likewise you will not be held responsible for their bad actions unless you incite it. The Scholars know the mistake an d errors that people have fallen into and they have and are addressing it. Alhamdhu’lillaah the truth is overpowering the falsehood.

  161. Abdul Malik; as (moderate – so know one gets us confused) Salafis we do believe in politic, but politics according to Islam, NOT according to man-made laws. It is not from the Sunnah nor the manhajus Salaf to rebuke the Rulers openly from the Mimba, on tapes, in wrting as this is a form of backbiting and slander. The Scholars advice the rulers and those capable in Secret according to the Sunnah. The Sahwa who claim salafiyah have fallen into condemninng the rulers openly in public as such they have been imprisoned.

  162. It is not from the Sunnah nor the manhajus salaf to rebuke or advice the ruler from the mimbar, on tapes and in newspapers. For that reason those whi did this have been imprisoned. Sahwa are upon the political radical manhaj.

  163. Abu Moosaa, you say stuff as if we all live in a vacuum and everything is nice and clean like in a lab environment.

    Abu Moosaa-heres why I’m angry:
    when they started attacking Sohaib Hassan, who told them to advice rather than attack? When they attacked Abu Ameenah-who told them to advice rather than attack? When they attacked Ali Tamimi-who told them to advice and not attack? Mohammed Jibaly, Siraj Wahaj, Ali Hasan Al Halabi, (even him), Al Mighrawi, Al Maaribi, (now) Muhammad Al Shareef, Yaasir Qadhi how many more do you want me to name? (some ‘off it’ some not-depending on the current list)

    No one made excuses for their brothers, our elders, our teachers-everyone was suspicious till they had a only a handful to take from-the juhaal, thats when the bubble burst, at the same time-thats when we find out that everyone else is suspect and our hearts are not clear about them. the masses were taught to hold these individuals and many more with distrust-some of them deviated.

    How could they not-look at how their own community dealt with them? Still deals with them.

    Fatawaa or opinions of scholars taken with clouded/one sided information is suspect, impressions of brothers gained while their reputations were being tarnished is suspect-NOT those people, NOT their islam, NOT their ‘salafiyya’. They made mistakes-who hasn’t?

    They deserve a chance to be taken from to clarify to rectify and be given the sort of company which is beneficial to them as well as those around them-a man is a reflection/on the deen of his khaleel.

    Why didn’t the salafis stand up and defend? Protect the honour of their brothers? Their betters? Their teachers?

    Before referring these issues to the scholars (with one sided views)-and ‘purging’ salafiya – how many referred the accusations and maligning to their hearts? How many took the advice of the prophet and umar? To avoid suspicion, to make excuses.

    I am not making anything here up-I know a dai’ee who was ‘in’ on it – till they turned on him-like the rabid dogs they are-and he was left alone-fighting, defending, refuting-whats the point?

    What happened to dawah? Until the whole ‘word game’ started-the concentration was on dawah-not only to non muslims-but bringing sunnah and tawheed to the muslims. After this circus act-the words flew thick and fast: manhaj, jarh, tamyee, tadeel, mubtadi, miskeen, kibaar on and on. What a joke-if this is salafiyya by definition-no one would want it for the sake of sincerity.

    Don’t throw ‘moderate’ salafi at me-you’re just doing it to be ‘one of the pack’, one end of it or the other doesn’t matter-you don’t even bother to call the haddadi or the takfeeri by another name-just harsh or extreme salafi. See what I mean by the confusion within yourself? 3 categories? you HAVE to be joking!

    The days of al albaani have gone, the days of ibn baz are gone-dont you get it? Wake up – the only way to reclaim the dawah is to stop making the mistakes which got us here. Isn’t this what the article is about? Its not about labels – moderate or not, its not about whos on or off it, its about ourselves, how we conduct ourselves, tarbiyyah, implementation, teaching, avoiding useless talk and issues of no benefit or relevance, not pumping up this or that personality (or website or group), its about the truth-regardless of the source, not speaking of which we have no authority over, keeping focus on what the call is to (tawheed, allah, the book and the sunnah, unity in the ummah, righteous action) and what it is NOT to (MY scholars, MY books, MY interpretation, MY website, MY conference…).

    You have to go no further than scrolling up to see what I mean as to how far the dawah has come from its bursting into the scene (the former) and the mentalities that have degenerated to the latter.

  164. As a result, Goldziher provides a significantly different version of the origin and development of hadith literature. Goldziher has no trouble accepting that the Companions preserved the words and deeds of their prophet after his death, and that these might have been recorded in written form in sahifas. In this way he remains very close to the Muslim interpretation of the development of hadith literature. He not only presumes that the Companions tried to preserve the sayings and judgments of Muhammad, but also that some of them likely did so in written form (that is, in sahifas). And, when these Companions passed on what they had heard and recorded to the next generation of Muslims, the use of the isnad began. But for Goldziher, the invention of and interpolation into hadiths also began very early, for both political and paraenetic reasons. And so mutually exclusive hadiths proliferated; “it is not surprising that, among the hotly debated controversial issues of Islam, whether political or doctrinal, there is not one in which the champions of the various views are unable to cite a number of traditions, all equipped with imposing isnads.”

    With the rise of the `Abbasids the situation changed significantly, according to Goldziher. `Abbasid rule was more theocratic than the more secular “Arab paganism” of the Umayyads. Consequently, the new dynasty encouraged the development of the shari`a and even employed court theologians to advise the caliphs, some of whom themselves studied and participated in theological debates. This attempt to give public life a more religious character also involved giving official recognition to the sunna. The rise of the sunna had begun during the Umayyad period in part in opposition to the perceived wickedness of the time, but its supporters remained relatively ineffective until the advent of the `Abbasid revolution. The report that the Umayyad caliph `Umar II commissioned the first collection of hadiths must be dismissed as untrustworthy because of the number of contradictions in the account and the absence of references to Abu Bakr ibn Hazm’s work in later literature. For Goldziher, this claim is hagiographic, that is, “nothing but an expression of the good opinion that people had of the pious caliph and his love for the sunna.”

    Goldziher maintains that, while reliance on the sunna to regulate the empire was favoured, there was still in these early years of Islam insufficient material going back to Muhammad himself. Scholars sought to fill the gaps left by the Qur’an and the sunna with material from other sources. Some borrowed from Roman law. Others attempted to fill these lacunae with their own opinions (ra’y). This latter option came under a concerted attack by those who believed that all legal and ethical questions (not addressed by the Qur’an) must be referred back to the Prophet himself, that is, must be rooted in hadiths. These supporters of hadiths (ahl al-hadith) were extremely successful in establishing hadiths as a primary source of law and in discrediting ra’y. But in many ways it was a Pyrrhic victory. The various legal madhhabs were loath to sacrifice their doctrines and so they found it more expedient to fabricate hadiths or adapt existing hadiths in their support. Even the advocates of ra’y were eventually persuaded or cajoled into accepting the authority of hadiths and so they too “found” hadiths which substantiated their doctrines that had hitherto been based upon the opinions of their schools’ founders and teachers. The insistence of the advocates of hadiths that the only opinions of any value were those which could appeal to the authority of the Prophet resulted in the situation that “where no traditional matter was to be had, men speedily began to fabricate it. The greater the demand, the busier was invention with the manufacture of apocryphal traditions in support of the respective theses.

    http://people.uncw.edu/bergh/par246/L21RHadithCriticism.htm

  165. Schacht asserts that hadiths, particularly from Muhammad, did not form, together with the Qur’an, the original bases of Islamic law and jurisprudence as is traditionally assumed. Rather, hadiths were an innovation begun after some of the legal foundation had already been built. “The ancient schools of law shared the old concept of sunna or ‘living tradition’ as the ideal practice of the community, expressed in the accepted doctrine of the school.” And this ideal practice was embodied in various forms, but certainly not exclusively in the hadiths from the Prophet. Schacht argues that it was not until al-Shafi`i that ‘sunna’ was exclusively identified with the contents of hadiths from the Prophet to which he gave, not for the first time, but for the first time consistently, overriding authority. Al-Shafi`i argued that even a single, isolated hadith going back to Muhammad, assuming its isnad is not suspect, takes precedence over the opinions and arguments of any and all Companions, Successors, and later authorities. Schacht notes that:

    Two generations before Shafi`i reference to traditions from Companions and Successors was the rule, to traditions from the Prophet himself the exception, and it was left to Shafi`i to make the exception the principle. We shall have to conclude that, generally and broadly speaking, traditions from Companions and Successors are earlier than those from the Prophet.

    Based on these conclusions, Schacht offers the following schema of the growth of legal hadiths. The ancient schools of law had a ‘living tradition’ (sunna) which was largely based on individual reasoning (ra’y). Later this sunna came to be associated with and attributed to the earlier generations of the Successors and Companions. Later still, hadiths with isnads extending back to Muhammad came into circulation by traditionists towards the middle of the second century. Finally, the efforts of al-Shafi`i and other traditionists secured for these hadiths from the Prophet supreme authority. However, the development of prophetic tradition did not cease at this point. In fact, as a result of the new authority conferred upon them, Schacht suggests that a large number of the hadiths preserved in the classical collections originated both during and after al-Shafi`i’s time. That is, most Prophetic hadiths in the collections of Bukhari, Muslim, and the others originated, not with Muhammad, but circa the middle of the second century A.H., while hadiths citing the opinions of Companions and other authorities originated somewhat earlier. In one of his most emphatic statements, Schacht concludes that “. . . every legal tradition from the Prophet, until the contrary is proved, must be taken not as an authentic or essentially authentic, even if slightly obscured, statement valid for his time or of the time of the Companions, but is the fictitious expression of a legal doctrine formulated at a later date.” Schacht therefore dismisses Muslim scholarship on hadiths, which itself is based on the study and criticism of isnads as “irrelevant for the purpose of historical analysis.”

    By ‘its relative position in the history of the problem’ Schacht means to suggest that hadiths were frequently fabricated in a polemical context. That is to say, they were designed specifically to refute certain pre-existing doctrines or practices. A new hadith or set of hadiths would then provoke the supporters or practitioners of the attacked doctrine or practice to manufacture hadiths to both defend it and to undermine the refuting hadiths. Their opponents would then respond with more and usually more elaborate hadiths. Thus, by juxtaposing various parallel or related hadiths and comparing their matns, one may be able to reconstruct the chronology of the hadiths surrounding a particular controversy. The doctrine or practice being attacked is, of course, chronologically prior to the hadith countering it. A hadith defending the practice or doctrine is likely to be after the counter-hadith.

    ‘Indications in the text’ means looking at the authority cited in a hadith. In the course of polemical discussions, each group was forced to project its doctrine to increasingly higher authorities. That is, teachings once ascribed to Successors become those of Companions, and the latter in turn become the words of the Prophet himself. Schacht argues that:

    Whenever we find, as frequently happens, alleged opinions of Successors, alleged decisions of the Companions, and alleged traditions from the Prophet side by side, we must, as a rule and until the contrary is proved, consider the opinions of the Successors as the starting point, and the traditions from the Companions and from the Prophet as secondary developments, intended to provide higher authority for the doctrine in question.

    http://people.uncw.edu/bergh/par246/L21RHadithCriticism.htm

  166. Dear Mohamed ,
    Why do rely on the kuffar , the jews who hate islam for your deen .All of their works is a bunch of non sense and their theories full of holes . You may want to read M M Azami’s refutation of their claims.

    May Allah destroy everyone who plots against His religion with their pen, tongues or weapons .

  167. Yes ibn Abdu, the jews hate islam. You apparently read way more into that article than I did.
    FYI here is something Goldhizer wrote in his journal:

    “In those weeks, I truly entered into the spirit of Islam to such an extent that ultimately I became inwardly convinced that I myself was a Muslim, and judiciously discovered that this was the only religion which, even in its doctrinal and official formulation, can satisfy philosophic minds.”

    That truly sounds like a man who hates Islam.
    From a nonmuslim perspective I really saw nothing wrong with their arguments. It seemed like all they were saying is that the ahadith must be verified as being accurate and that in order to do that you must verify the chain of transmission/Isnad, which is absolutely true. Muslims themselves say the ahadith are only the words and opinions of Muhammed. They are not the words of Allah/divinely inspired. So that would mean that they can be subject to errors since they are not the words of God. And additionally, they only began to be written down 200 or 300 years after Muhammed died (did he actually die by the way? I don’t know. Or do muslims believe that what you think happened to Jesus happened to him too?). So, all the more reasont to check the veracity of their transmission.

    And additionally, I have read numerous muslim blogs where they post that this or that is a “weak” hadith and not reliable or this is a “strong” hadith. What makes a weak hadith and what makes a strong hadith? So considering all this, what exactly is wrong with their articles?

  168. Dear Tina ,
    Do not generalize , read the full sentence in context. Goldhzier and schacht were orientalists who worked very very hard to undermine the sources of sunni Islam. I am aware of their admiration for Islam , this was actually quoted in their refutation by Dr. Azami and showed how bigoted these people are, fighting against the truth even when they know its from God .

    Muslims have a very exhaustive system of hadith transmission and checking. A hadith is graded by looking at both the chain of transmission and the text.There are books which run in to volumes which describe narrators in alphabetical order ,biography, characteristics , whom he studied with and narrates from , level of memory, prone to mistakes or not and other details which are necessary to accept hadith from a certain person . Its a very vast science that requires serious study .

    It is irrelevant what some “muslims” think of it or whether you or I believe they should be like . Certain Hadiths are classified as weak because we have a system to judge the authenticity of hadith , If we did not we would not be able to discriminate between the truth and falsehood.

    Hadith was written during the time of the prophet saws itself and was written in every generation from there . Its only due to ignorance and blind following of orientalists that some people including “muslims” believe otherwise.

    “So considering all this, what exactly is wrong with their articles?”

    Basically the article tries to undermine the sources of Islam by casting doubts on their authenticity.

    “Muslims themselves say the ahadith are only the words and opinions of Muhammed. They are not the words of Allah/divinely inspired”

    This is not fully true , Muslim believe that hadith and the Qura’n were both revelations , former explaining the latter . But Quran is literally the word of God where as the hadith are in the words of the prophet but are revalation.

    “Muhammed died ”
    Yes, he died and his grave is in Medina in present day Saudi Arabia

  169. Oh, okay. So your saying that the article basically says that the ahadith shouldn’t be part of Islam? Gotcha. Maybe I didn’t read it closely enough:) That’s very interesting about Muhammed though. For some reason I had this idea that muslims believed he just ascended into heaven. Maybe its because I always thought muslims viewed Muhammed as being better than Jesus, so if Jesus went up to heaven like that then Muhammed would have too. Then I guess that big black rock in Saudi Arabia probably has something to do with his death right? I always wondered what that was:)
    I would have to disagree with you though on how you said Goldhizer and the other guy were bigoted because they believed Islam was from God yet didn’t except. I, for example, think Judaism is from God, yet that doesn’t mean I’m going to go out and convert to Judaism. And I don’t think that makes me a bigot either.
    Sorry, by the way. I know this has absolutely nothing to do with Umar’s post:)

  170. Tina, the “black rock” in Mecca is most probably a meteorite, has been there before the Prophet (pbuh), and is revered only because it was given some respect by the Prophet (pbuh) as something like a sign from Heaven by God. It does not have any deep significance, and Umar (RA), the second caliph of Sunni Islam is said to have expressed his desire to have it removed had the Prophet not sanctified it. The Prophet (pbuh) is buried in Medina, in cemmetary which now sits next to the Mosque. Muslims beleive in different prophets as different people who had the same message but different characteristics. Jesus (pbuh) is mentioned as the “Ruhollah” in the Qur’an. The corporeal raising of Jesus to heaven is not explicitly mentioned in the Qur’an but forms the mainstream opinion of Muslims with supporting Ahadith.

    Also I think the comparison with you accepting Judaism is slightly different. I understand you are Christian (correct me if I’m wrong), so of course you believe historical Judaism of Moses (pbuh) and Abraham (pbuh) as true, as do I, but you beleive in Jesus (pbuh) so you will not renegage on that. But in a way, you are not “rejecting” Moses (pbuh), as you beleive in him as well?

  171. tina asked: “What makes a weak hadith and what makes a strong hadith?”

    The “strength” or “weakness” of any hadith refers to the isnad or chain of transmitters of the hadith. Each hadith has an isnad that tells us who related the hadith from person to person. Each of these persons has had their life reviewed, especially as it pertains to the transmission of ahadith. For example, was that person trustworthy, how good was their memory, were they known for having created any spurious ahadith or falsifying in any way any hadith, and so on. The grading of all of the transmitters in each isnad would determine the status of the hadith, whether it is sahih (strong), hasan (fair), daif (weak), munkar (denounced), or maudu (forged).

    You might find this article, The Science of Hadith of interest.

  172. For those who don’t know Goldziher and Schacht are the equivalent to the Qur’aniyîn (i.e., Hadîth rejectors) of the Orientalist world.

    As mentioned above their views have been refuted by Professor Muhammad Mustafa al-A’zami. There is also a refutation of their views written in Arabic by Muhammad Luqmân as-Salafi, head of the Ibn Taimiyyah University and Ibn Bâz Centre in India (I forget the title of this one though).

  173. In the meantime, ‘Umar sat on the pulpit and when the callmakers for the prayer had finished their call, ‘Umar stood up, and having glorified and praised Allah as He deserved, he said, “Now then, I am going to tell you something which (Allah) has written for me to say. I do not know; perhaps it portends my death, so whoever understands and remembers it, must narrate it to the others wherever his mount takes him, but if somebody is afraid that he does not understand it, then it is unlawful for him to tell lies about me. Allah sent Muhammad with the Truth and revealed the Holy Book to him, and among what Allah revealed, was the Verse of the Rajam (the stoning of married person (male & female) who commits illegal sexual intercourse, and we did recite this Verse and understood and memorized it. Allah’s Apostle did carry out the punishment of stoning and so did we after him.
    I am afraid that after a long time has passed, somebody will say, ‘By Allah, we do not find the Verse of the Rajam in Allah’s Book,’ and thus they will go astray by leaving an obligation which Allah has revealed. And the punishment of the Rajam is to be inflicted to any married person (male & female), who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if the required evidence is available or there is conception or confession. And then we used to recite among the Verses in Allah’s Book: “O people! Do not claim to be the offspring of other than your fathers, as it is disbelief (unthankfulness) on your part that you claim to be the offspring of other than your real father.” Then (unrelated) [1]

    2
    Narrated Ibn ‘Abbas:

    Umar said, “I am afraid that after a long time has passed, people may say, “We do not find the Verses of the Rajam (stoning to death) in the Holy Book,” and consequently they may go astray by leaving an obligation that Allah has revealed. Lo! I confirm that the penalty of Rajam be inflicted on him who commits illegal sexual intercourse, if he is already married and the crime is proved by witnesses or pregnancy or confession.” Sufyan added, “I have memorized this narration in this way.” ‘Umar added, “Surely Allah’s Apostle carried out the penalty of Rajam, and so did we after him.”

    3
    Narrated Ibn Umar:

    A Jew and a Jewess were brought to Allah’s Apostle on a charge of committing an illegal sexual intercourse. The Prophet asked them. “What is the legal punishment (for this sin) in your Book (Torah)?” They replied, “Our priests have innovated the punishment of blackening the faces with charcoal and Tajbiya.” ‘Abdullah bin Salam said, “O Allah’s Apostle, tell them to bring the Torah.” The Torah was brought, and then one of the Jews put his hand over the Divine Verse of the Rajam (stoning to death) and started reading what preceded and what followed it. On that, Ibn Salam said to the Jew, “Lift up your hand.” Behold! The Divine Verse of the Rajam was under his hand. So Allah’s Apostle ordered that the two (sinners) be stoned to death, and so they were stoned. Ibn ‘Umar added: So both of them were stoned at the Balat and I saw the Jew sheltering the Jewess. [3]

    4
    Ibn Mardawayh reported that Hudhayfah said:

    Umar said to me ‘How many verses are contained in the chapter of al-Ahzab?’ I said, ’72 or 73 verses.’ He said it was almost as long as the chapter of the Cow, which contains 287 verses, and in it there was the verse of stoning.[4]

    5
    Ayesha:

    “When the verses “Rajm” [Stoning] and ayah “Rezah Kabir” descended, they were written on a piece of paper and kept under my pillow. Following the demise of Prophet Muhammad (S) a goat ate the piece of paper while we were mourning.”
    Another translation goes:

    The verse of stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were revealed, and they were (written) on a paper and kept under my bed. When the Messenger of Allah (SAWW.) expired and we were preoccupied with his death, a goat entered and ate away the paper.[5]

    6
    If a judge has to witness in favor of a litigant whenhe is a judge or he had it before he became a judge (can he pass ajudgment in his favor accordingly or should he refer the case to another judge before whom he would bear witness?). And the judge Shuraih said to a person who sought his witness, “Go to the ruler so that I may bear witness (before him) for you.” And ‘Ikrima said, “Umar said to ‘Abdur-Rahman bin ‘Auf, ‘If I saw a man committing illegal sexual intercourse or theft, and you were the ruler (what would you do)?. ‘Abdur-Rahman said, ‘I would regard your witness as equal to the witness of any other man among the Muslims. ‘Umar said, ‘You have said the truth.’ ‘Umar added: If I were not afraid of the fact that people may say that ‘Umar has added to the Quran extra (verses), I would have written the Verse al-Rajm (stoning to death of married adulterers) with my own hands. and Ma’iz confessed before the Prophet that he had committed illegal intercourse, whereupon the prophet ordered him to be stoned to death. It is not mentioned that the prophet sought witness of those who were present there.
    Hammad said, “If an adulterer confesses before a ruler once only, he should be stoned to death.” But al-Hakam said, “He must confess four times.[6]

    References
    ↑ 1)

    Sahih Bukhari 82.817
    Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal (in the Musnad of Umar under the caption of the Hadith al-Saqeefah, pp 47,55)
    The life of the Prophet by Ibn Hisham (Pub. by Issa al-Babi al-Halabi of Egypt 1955), v2, p658
    ↑ 2)

    Sahih Bukhari 82.816
    ↑ 3)

    Sahih Bukhari 82.809
    ↑ 4)

    Al-Muttaqi ‘Ali bin Husam al-Din in his book “Mukhtasar Kanz al-‘Ummal” printed on the margin of Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Volume 2, page 2, in his hadith about chapter 33
    [8] [9]

    ↑ 5)

    Sunan Ibn Maja, Volume 2, Page 39, Published Karachi.
    Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, Volume 6, Page 269, Published Beirut.
    The Interpretation of Conflicting Narrations, Page 310, Published Beirut
    ↑ 6)

    The Hadith is narrated without any Hadith number in Bukhari. It is in the title of one of the chapter of Bukhari. It was translated by the translator.
    Sahih al-Bukhari, Arabic-English version, vol 9, p212: {Between Traditions 9.281 and 9.282} [10] [11]

    Sunni Islam’s “reverence” for the Quran!

    With friends like these……

  174. Sunni Islam claims Quranic verses revealed to the prophet are not contained in the current collection, believed to be compiled by Uthman. They justify it by these verses.

    And when We exchange a verse in the place of another verse – and God knows very well what he is sending down – they say (to Muhammad), ‘You are a mere forger!'” (Quran, 16:101)

    “None of our revelations do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten but We substitute something better or similar” (Quran, 2:106)

    They claim these verses support those hadiths of theirs. In fact those verses came down upon the Jews and Christians and was not refering to the Quran. Lets look at these verses and see if Sunni islam is correct that Quranic verses are missing as they say:

    FROM AL BAQARA

    101. And when there came to them an apostle from Allah, confirming what was with them, a party of the people of the Book threw away the Book of Allah behind their backs, as if (it had been something) they did not know!

    102. They followed what the evil ones gave out (falsely) against the power of Solomon: the blasphemers Were, not Solomon, but the evil ones, teaching men Magic, and such things as came down at babylon to the angels Harut and Marut. But neither of these taught anyone (Such things) without saying: “We are only for trial; so do not blaspheme.” They learned from them the means to sow discord between man and wife. But they could not thus harm anyone except by Allah.s permission. And they learned what harmed them, not what profited them. And they knew that the buyers of (magic) would have no share in the happiness of the Hereafter. And vile was the price for which they did sell their souls, if they but knew!

    103. If they had kept their Faith and guarded themselves from evil, far better had been the reward from their Lord, if they but knew!

    104. O ye of Faith! Say not (to the Messenger. words of ambiguous import, but words of respect; and hearken (to him): To those without Faith is a grievous punishment.

    105. It is never the wish of those without Faith among the People of the Book, nor of the Pagans, that anything good should come down to you from your Lord. But Allah will choose for His special Mercy whom He will – for Allah is Lord of grace abounding.

    ####106. None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar: Knowest thou not that Allah Hath power over all things?

    107. Knowest thou not that to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth? And besides Him ye have neither patron nor helper.

    108. Would ye question your Messenger as Moses was questioned of old? but whoever changeth from Faith to Unbelief, Hath strayed without doubt from the even way.

    109. Quite a number of the People of the Book wish they could Turn you (people) back to infidelity after ye have believed, from selfish envy, after the Truth hath become Manifest unto them: But forgive and overlook, Till Allah accomplish His purpose; for Allah Hath power over all things.

    Now lets see what the Quran is talking about when it says verses abrogated and forgotten and whether these verses are Quranic as Sunni hadiths say:

    FROM AL MAIDA

    12. Allah did aforetime take a covenant from the Children of Israel, and we appointed twelve captains among them. And Allah said: “I am with you: if ye (but) establish regular prayers, practise regular charity, believe in my apostles, honour and assist them, and loan to Allah a beautiful loan, verily I will wipe out from you your evils, and admit you to gardens with rivers flowing beneath; but if any of you, after this, resisteth faith, he hath truly wandered from the path or rectitude.”

    ####13. But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few – ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.

    ###14. From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done.

    ###15. O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary). There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book,-

    16. Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will, unto the light,- guideth them to a path that is straight.

    Here we say the Quran CLEARLY stated that the forgot and neglected many verses and also CLEARLy states that the Quran now has deemed some verses in the past scriptures as unnecessary for mankind to follow. These was in response to a debate between the Jews and the Muslims about Quranic verses that differ in their obligations and commands from what they inherited from the Torah or the Bible. No verse from the Quran has been abrogated or forgotten or some goat ran away with. The abrogation and forgetfullness was concerning the Bible and Torah and not Quran. Sunni Islam’s hatred for the Quran is legendary. Thats why they despise followers of Quran.

  175. Another blasphemy:

    (3) Surahs missing:

    “(2286) … We used to recite a Sura which resembled in length and severity to (Sura) Bara’at. I have however forgotten it with the exception of this which I remember out of it: “If there were two valleys full of riches, for the son of Adam, he would long for a third valley, and nothing would fill the stomach of the son of Adam but dust.” And we used to recite a sura which resembled one of the suras of Musabbihat, and I have forgotten it, but remember (this much) out of it: “O people who believe, why do you say that which you do not practice” (lxi 2.) and “that it is recorded in your necks as a witness (against you) and you would be asked about it on the Day of Resurrection” (xvii. 13). (Sahih Muslim, Vol. II, p. 500f, #2286)

    Sunni Islam further reverence for Quran!

  176. Narrated Ibn Abbas: Umar said “Ubayy was the best of us in the recitation (of the Qur’an) yet we leave some of what he recites”. Ubbay says, “I have taken it from the mouth of Allah’s Apostle (saw) and will not leave it for anything whatever” But Allah said: None of Our revelations do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten but He substitute something better or similar (2. 106). [ Sahih al – Bukhari, Vol. 6, p. 489).

    More “reverence”!

  177. Angry Salafi, you are still angry. Why?
    May be you did not read what brother Abu Abdullaah wrote in his initial first post about the reality of the people who ascribe to this blessed Dawah. I advice you to read it and strive to understand it.

    Abdul Malik go read the principles from the Quran and the Sunnah with regards to dealing with the rulers and read the fatawah of the Salafi Ulamah, and you will find out that everyone who was imprisoned with the exception of a few who were imprisoned unjustly, deserved to be imprisoned due to the loose toung that they had.
    Ali-Timimi, may Allaah make things easy for him and his family and guide him to the truth in the affairs of dealing with rulers and respect for the Scholars, has been effected by Saffar and Salman. If you agree with saffar and salman and agree with Alil-Timimi than you have gone againnst the Sunnah and manhajus salaf in dealing with the rulers. And are using the issue of irja to oppose the Salafi Scholars. Make dua for the rulers, if you are a person who can speak to the rulers in person do so and advice them nicely.

  178. ibn AbduRezzaq
    March 3rd, 2007 at 2:06 pm
    Dear Mohamed ,
    Why do rely on the kuffar , the jews who hate islam for your deen .All of their works is a bunch of non sense and their theories full of holes . You may want to read M M Azami’s refutation of their claims.

    May Allah destroy everyone who plots against His religion with their pen, tongues or weapons . End Quote

    So who is fighting Islam hey, eat your shoes now. Quran missing huh? Why worry about the “kuffar” when we have Bukhari and Muslim claiming Quran is missing and have been “forgotten”. Utter nonsence and hearsay its all it is. Its all gossip made up 250 years after the prophet died. They couldn’t tamper with Quran and alter the deen like the Jews and Christians did so they began to fabricate hadiths to convince the Muslims that Quran is unreliable on its own so salafis like you can worship gossip and hearsay instead.

    [5:116-117] GOD will say, “O Jesus, son of Mary, did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother idols beside GOD?’ ” He will say, “Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets. I told them only what You commanded me to say, that: `You shall worship GOD, my Lord and your Lord.’ I was a witness among them for as long as I lived with them. When You took me up , You became the Watcher over them. You witness all things.

    Deja vu?

  179. This is not the place to debate on these issues .

    Its Your “Imaams” who are jews , the ones whom you accussed of altering the deen of Allah.

    I will just state our creed in brief.

    We affirm that some verses of the Quran were abrogated as Allah said in Surah al-Baqarah and that the Quran we have now is what Allah has preserved for the past 1400 + years and it was indeed preserved by the same people who preserved the Hadith not the cult of rashid khalifa , ghulaam parvez or any of the so called followers of the Quran who never existed till the 20 tje century their when their orientalist “Imaams” enlightened them about their deen .

    Hadith was written down during the time of the prophet , only those who are ignorant ,take their desires as their object of worship and follow the orientalists believe otherwise .

    No sunni claims that Quran is unreliable on its own but that Allah did not just drop a book from the sky and ask the people to follow what they think it says , rather he sent a teacher and a role model with the Quran to teach and explain the Quran and how it should be understood
    and thats what the hadith are all about .

  180. Then how do hadithist like you explain that the muhajiroun only represent 4% of the hadiths.

    There is very little in your god Bukhari from the 4 caliphs, probably 2 %. since all of them forbade the writing of hadiths since they knew they were people like you around waiting to tamper. Sounds like the Bible to me. And anyways your Abu Hurreira is closer to the jews than anyone of the ones you mention. Read his origins.

    The Quran has never been abrogated outside the Quran we have today, the Quran has been preserved which is why you and the rest of the “Sunni” Abassyids had to come up with hadiths to spread lies since you couldn’t tamper with the Quran and fabricate it. Now you all want to say its been abrogated and lost or forgotten. Utter nonsence.

    You say God sent a teacher, a teacher who forbade and refused to write down hdiths and none of his companions ever did. Uthman collected Quran and not hadiths, the hadiths you have today is courtesy of the Abassyid tyrants and you know it. And don’t give me they did not want it mixed with the Quran line, Sunni and Shia Islam don’t care about the Quran. They take their deen from hearsay and Arab gossip.

  181. Then how do hadithist like you explain that the muhajiroun only represent 4% of the hadiths.

    There is very little in your god Bukhari from the 4 caliphs, probably 2 %. since all of them forbade the writing of hadiths since they knew they were people like you around waiting to tamper. Sounds like the Bible to me. And anyways your Abu Hurreira is closer to the jews than anyone of the ones you mention. Read his origins.

    I’d like to see where you get your statistics from. Do you have an actual credible source or are you pulling numbers out your behind?

    I also find it amusing how Qur’ânî jokers like you will use historical accounts narrated in the very same hadîths you’re trying to discredit to prove your fanciful assertions. Either they’re legit sources of information or they’re not. Make up your mind.

    I also find it amusing how you try to discredit the carriers of hadîths among the Companions, while they’re the very same people who Allah used and chose to preserve His book. Either they’re reliable and trustworthy in what they report, and thus Qur’ân and Hadîth authentically narrated by them are to be accepted, or they’re liars, swindlers, or any other disparaiging names you can use to accuse them with, and both the Qur’ân and authentically reported Hadîth are suspect. As they say, “You can’t have your cake and eat it too.”

  182. Bismillaah wassalaatu was salaamu `alaa rasoolillaah was salaamu `alaykum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatuh-

    SubhaanAllaah, there is soo much said here already, some good but overwhelmingly negative. However I couldn’t help but say a few words to my bro. Umar. Firstly, I will admit that I have not read your article. I think I read the first article a few months ago but I really wasn’t interested in bringing any hurt to myself and my Deen so I left it.

    I too was ‘in the mix’ in the early 90’s when the da’wah began to grow strong. I was in Bklyn and attended the first Salafee masjid that opened there. Since you were around at this time you will probably know of which I speak. I have been on the da’wah for 14 yrs., maa shaa’Allaah, and without a doubt I have seen and heard many things. I have been harmed by fellow Salafees as well. Mind you I never encountered these things when I was with ahlul bid`ah. Maa shaa’Allaah there character was mumtaz. I still hear and see much among the Salafiyoon (in GENERAL) that hurts my heart and of course there are times when Shaytaan is riding my back trying to get me to blame the da’wah, or even Islaam itself. But how could I possibly do that. This Deen is perfect, and this da’wah IS the Deen, so how could it be the da’wah thats at fault?? It is some, and I reiterate, SOME people with issues. But what has that to do with the da’wah itself??

    I guess I am one of those people who do not believe that we should air our dirty laundry for all to see. Would you make your family problems public? Are we not a family?? Our problems is just that, OUR problems. And we should work to fix our problems OURSELVES. Giving naseehah, just like giving da’wah calls for using alot of hikmah. One of the Salaf said, “how many intend good but never achieve it…” And look at all the hype (fitnah) that this thread has further caused. Is this really the goal you were trying to reach? Is this a ‘solution’ to our problems?? Laa. Remember akhee, this is your site and you will have to answer for everything that you say, as well as for what you allow to take place here. Are you prepared for that on Yawmul Qiyaamah. Can you honestly go before Allaah and say that you were trying to bring about good?

    As far as a solution to our problems, they start with you and I and everyone else who has written, will write, have read or will read this series. IF there really are du`aat, Imaams or whoever, doing things that are not sanctioned in the Deen, what does that have to do with us. The Messenger (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) said, “From the perfection of one’s Islaam is that he leaves alone that which doesn’t concern him.” They will have to answer for what they do and we will have to answer for what we do. If you are truly concerned, have you first and foremost verified if these accusations are even true; have you contacted them and out of sincerity advised them; above all have you made du`aa for them?? As a matter of fact, have you made du`aa for all of us because none of us are sinless. So instead of concentrating on all of the problems within the Salafiyyoon (and Islaam as a whole) why not start with rectifying yourself. As Allaah Says (meaning), “And whatever of misfortune befalls you, it is because of what your hands have earned. And He pardons much.” [42:30] So if everyone of us turned to Allaah and rectified our own situation it would be all good. Allaah Says (meaning), “O you who believe! Save yourselves and your families from a Fire whose fuel is men and stones…” [66:6]

    But unfortunately, I don’t think this will ever take place, and Allaah knows best, since the Messenger (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) said, ” There will never cease to be a group from my Ummah clearly upon the Truth until the Hour is established.” I pray that I (and you) will be amongst that group so that we may be successful, if not in this life, then in the next.

    Lastly, I would like to say that I was really taken aback about your comments that you ‘jokingly’ made, wa a`oodhu billaah, and remind you that mocking this Blessed Deen takes one outside the fold of Islaam, may Allaah protect us from that, aameen. As Allaah (ta`alaa) Says (meaning), “If you ask them (about this), they declare: “We were only talking idly and joking.” Say: “Was it at Allaah, and His Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) and His Messenger (sallallaahu `alayhi wa sallam) that you were mocking? Make no excuse; you have disbelieved after you had believed…” [9:66,7]

    So akhee, do not let the shayaateen from amongst jinn and men lead you away from the Path after Allaah in His Grace & Mercy guided you to it.

    Without a doubt all truth and goodness comes from Allaah and if I have said anything that is incorrect, falsehood, or have harmed anyone then that is from myself (unintentionally) and ash-Shaytaan and I ask for Allaah’s forgiveness and then yours. Subhaanaka allaahumma wa bi hamdika wa ash hadu an laa ilaaha illa anta astaghfiruka wa atoobu ilayk.

  183. AsSalaamu Alaik.
    A brother was talking about how recognizing the problems in the ummah, and how it shouldn’t matter what the sufi’s will say……..why is everyone always so against the sufi’s. You look at some of the salafi’s who got there heads all messed up, but you can’t condemn the salafi dawah based upon that. Same applies to sufi…don’t condemn the whole group just because of a few. You would never know what is in someones heart…so everyone should by judged on and individualistic type of judgement…not my what they call themselves, nor by what others call them…..and certainly not by us!!! Allah is the judge and He knows best what is in the hearts of his creation. so, please so making seem like a war between the salafi and the sufi…do you know what sufi’s call themselves? AhlusSunnah…and what do salafi’s call themselves? AhlusSunnah. So, leave the judging up to Allah. That’s not our judge….Lets just all get along…..Take the good from people and turn away from the rest…because no group of people will EVER be perfect because man is not perfect…but the religion of Islam IS perfect…..so lets be true Muslims, and stop judging ever body. And brother Umar, you probably won’t want to comment on this, but I would appreciate it if you did. Jazaakallah. Salaam

  184. AsSalaamu Alaikum,

    I’ve read some of your articles on the rise and fall of the salafi I believe it was. Actually I was first directed to your blog because of those articles.
    I’m not salafi, nor am I part of anything other than Muslim. I don’t put anything before it or after it. Allah (S.W.T) made our ummah one ummah.
    Maybe it’s me, Allahu Allum, but with all of the Sahih hadith we have about the Prophet (S.A.W.) warning us about the future and how we will follow those before us foot by foot, step by step into a lizard hole, and the 74 sects of Islam and only the one who truly believes in Allah will go to heaven and the rest to hell, you would think we as an ummah would be more careful about what we say and do.
    Sometimes, I don’t say things for fear it may be the cause of another sect, I strive to think carefully about what I say because I fear Allah. It’s interesting though, but All in all. Allah knows who will be admitted into Jannah and who will be sent to Jahaanab. Allah (S.W.T) Knows and we know not. and to speak with certainty about things which only Allah knows is dangerous and that may be an understatement. May Allah forgive us all and place with the party of the mu’min on the Day of Judgement inshaAllah

    AsSalaamu Alaikum,

    Abdul At-Tawwaab

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