The rise and fall of the ‘salafi dawah’ in the US (Final, Comments Open)


Part One: The Beginning

Part Two: The Competition for Converts

Part Three: The Brotherhood

Part Four: E.O. and its satellites

Part Five: Northern Virginia/DC area

Part Six: The Decline

Part Seven: Boycotting and Excommunication

Part Eight: Social Breakdown

Part Nine: Post 9/11


Final Thoughts…

When IANA and other such organizations dissolved after 9/11, the remaining reasonable and moderate American brothers had no place to go and for all purposes – especially with all the fitnah of brothers being arrested – and basically went into hiding and are quietly going on with their lives observing the social anarchy from afar. I have found brothers that were formerly active in the salafi movement – brothers that at the time had big untrimmed beards and exclusively wore thobes – with small trimmed beards, a suit and tie on and wanting nothing to do with the movement. Some were even very anti-salafi.



It also did not help matters when some groups that were opposed to the salafi movement as a whole took the opportunity to scapegoat them after 9/11.



As to the TROID side, they continued to shrink in influence, and have become sort of a punch line. They are the ones associated with ‘salafiyah’ when other Muslims think of salafis. Mention the word ‘Salafi’ to a Muslim what often comes to mind is a criminal who marries several times. They thought it to be “unbeneficial” to address social issues and those very issues ate away at them like acid. They thought it better to “leave these issues” but it never left them.



TROID began to lose influence as the tabloid style emails ceased and they ran out of people to character assassinate. Plus people just got tired. They can’t put together any conferences outside of Philly and Newark, where – even in those places – they are also waning in influence. There is no real solid “movement” in place. Even if one visits a lot of the old salafi websites, one will find that they haven’t been updated in months or sometimes, years. This has contributed to the end of the “cut and paste” era. And Salafis are almost nowhere to be found in the post 9/11 intellectual debate.



As to the remnants of the IANA side of things, some have retooled, run away from the old salafi movement, and have an entirely different focus. These groups do not concentrate on converts anymore and disown the title ‘salafi’ for themselves because they do not want to be associated with the legacy of TROID – for good reason.





Texas Dawah and the Al Maghrib Institute are two examples of such organizations that are pretty balanced and have run away from the salafi label like the plague. I hear that Texas Dawah puts on a pretty good program, but they – along with Al Maghrib – target the college aged (18-25) middle class, children of immigrants. We converts are largely an afterthought in their programs. Converts are welcome to come, but they are not considered in the programs. Some converts that have been around this crowd have even gotten the feeling that they are a “pet convert” and shy away.

Texas Dawah – for example – had over 3,000 attendees at their last conference, but I would be surprised if even 1% of that number were converts. Again, this is not to say that they reject converts, but it is clear that they don’t speak to our issues in their conferences. This is in contrast to the old days when you had large numbers of converts at the old salafi conferences. A crowd of 3,000 would have close to 1,000 converts and several speakers that were themselves converts. Gatherings in East Orange could draw 2,000 people in which 95% were converts. That is just not the case now. No one considers us anymore.



I attended an Al Maghrib class in New Jersey and immediately felt out of place as a convert, because I knew that this program – though very good for its audience – was not for people like me. The crowd was overwhelmingly first or second generation immigrants and middle to upper class young individuals that were either in college or just graduated. Again, nothing wrong with that, but we are left in the cold. Double weekend classes or a once a year conference does not compare to an everyday movement that was a way of life.



I spoke to Muhammad Al Shareef, and I could tell that he just couldn’t relate with a person like me. This is not a criticism of him, as I enjoyed his class – in an abstract way – but I could tell that there was not only a convert/non-convert divide, but a class and social divide. The problems of people like me are not even conceptualized much less thought about, thus many are still in the streets with no place to go. (Another issue is that you can’t rule out the barrier that the fees for the Al Maghrib)



This is why I feel that these new organizations are too limited in their scope to be anywhere near the old days. They are concentrating on the second generation youth – nothing wrong with that – but there are many others out there.



There is little to no talk of community building, raising children, dealing with non-Muslim family and non-Muslim in-laws, cleaning up and reviving neighborhoods, or things of that sort that are of importance to converts. The converts are left with a choice of being left in the cold to observe from the outside as forgetten about relics from a past era or to assimilate completely into the immigrant world and resolve to leave their American identity behind.



If organizations such as Texas Dawah or Almaghrib ever decide that they want to deal with converts, then they will have to take on social problems in order to be affective and not declare them to be “of no benefit”



At one time, things were great, and seemed to be on the move. Then things fell apart as the over zealous element was never put into check and ultimately destroyed everything. There are still brothers floating around that seem to think that it is still 1996, but they are isolated. I feel sorry for brothers like this when I see them, because usually they were not around during the good times and do not know that what they are doing is a dead end, especially without the social support that was around in the 90’s.



As it stands, the movement is a shell of what is used to be. The Islamic Center of America in East Orange seems abandoned compared to how it used to be. In the DC area, there is no fervor amongst the handful of Salafis that are remaining. There are some who remember those days, go to the masjid and pray and do good deeds and in their homes still enjoy the knowledge. Jamatul Al Qawee was taken over by the TROID element and is barely functional via a handful of isolated, triumphalist brothers. There are a few remnants at the Dar as Salaam masjid in Maryland, who have also run away from the salafi movement. Everything else is a faded memory.



Across the country, the salafi masjids folded one by one, until they are nothing more than a handful of sad isolated brothers in a few cities that even now do not realize that the world has moved on without them. They are in for a rude awakening.



The brothers and sisters across the country are left alone… left to pick up the devastating pieces and try to carry on their lives… left to try to fill the huge void in their chests…. left try to live instead of simply exist… left to wait to wander with no place to go.



Isolationism was such a big mistake and that is why I am opposed to it. Even though I look upon those days with fondness – I am left feeling very cynical, jaded and scarred.



Comments are now open…


508 thoughts on “The rise and fall of the ‘salafi dawah’ in the US (Final, Comments Open)

  1. Very well written and accurate account of the destruction of the dawah here in America. It made me very sad when I thought about the times of unity. I am one of those that pulled away

  2. I think what you wrote is very much near the truth but still obviously subjective as it is through your experience that you tell the story.

    The reason I say that is because of the comments you made regarding AlMaghrib. AlMaghrib institute -ends up- catering to those with money, yes, but is it meant to be that way? That is debatable.

    Also, I don’t think they have a policy of trying to pucker up to a special class of Muslims per say. They obvously are not converts and therefore have certain personalities and certain issues they’ve dealt with all their lives, and certain issues they can relate to easier. Does that mean they are trying to leave out converts in the cold?

    I don’t think so. AlMaghrib is not a -convert- association. It is an institute that is supposed to teach Islam, whether the student is a white American convert or a Muslim raised in a Muslim family from Dhaka.. u know what i mean?

    However, I DO understand how when a person is in a crowd and sees HARDLY anyone like themselves, they would automatically feel left out. Because THEY simply can’t relate to everyone else.

    You get what im saying?

    I think the feeling of relating for desis for instances comes from teh teacher using examples from ‘desi’ life or urdu words which Muhammad Shareef does cuz his wife is Pakistani. But he is also quite ‘westernized’ due to his Canadian upbringing, so at some level I personally can’t relate to him in certain moments because I grew up partly back home.

  3. ummabdullah:

    I tried to make it clear that I did not think that almaghrib (or Texas Dawah for that matter) are TRYING to leave out converts, but it is pretty clear to me that they are targeting college aged 2nd generation immigrants. The result – regardless of their intentions – is that converts are left out. Attend a class and tell me how many converts you see – particularly black ones. You will then see my point. Many African-American Muslims have not even heard of almaghrib, yet it is widely talked about – in good and bad ways – in Desi circles.

    I am not saying that it is wrong of them to target these 2nd generation youth. The only point I am making is that if people think that these organizations are as dynamic as the past, where you’d see large numbers of converts, then they are sadly mistaken

  4. Good posts, Umar. Been their, done that, and not coming back. Honestly, there isn’t much to say. The problems in the community are no different than in other faith societies. Really, I’m at a loss for words.

  5. As-salaamu ‘alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatu,

    Subhan’Allah, what an amazing series of articles! I’ve learnt quite a bit from them… and just when I needed them, too! I’d just started wondering about the Salafi movement, its history and how it’s doing today, and masha’Allah right on cue you started writing and posting this… :)

    Even though I haven’t actually experienced what you did, it made me so sad to read about the decline of the movement… especially since the way you described it as during its peak was just amazing!

    I am sure that there’ll be a lot of people who’ll disagree with you about the state of the movement today, but I understand that you’re writing from your own experiences and personal viewpoint…

    But y’know… regarding what is so desperately lacking for the converts today… d’you think that something *could* be started up, like the conferences and day-to-day programs that you mentioned in your first posts, once more?
    Perhaps I’m just being naive, but I’m sure that if a group of dedicated members of the community – brothers and sisters – got together and worked really hard, they could start something up (albeit on a smaller scale) that would resemble what used to benefit the community ‘back in the day’.

    Although, they’d probably have to stay away from the label of ‘Salafi’ if they hope for success in the community…

    Anyway, just wanted to say jazakAllahu khair for the wonderful writing and ‘history lesson’!

    May Allah help us so that the ‘glory days’ can once more be relived, ameen!

    Your little sister in Islam,

  6. assalamu ‘alaikum,

    Have read your articles. I think many mistakes were made and the content one is he who learns from other people’s mistakes as Ibn Mas’ud radiallaahu ‘anhu said. However, we have been ordered to follow this blessed path upon righteousness and that was the problem. Lack of knowledge and how to carry this blessed da’wah with correct manners and understanding.

    I think the future looks much better inshaallaah as now the scholars are referred to much more. Yes, there was more unity in the pat but not always upon a clear correct basis, unity for the sake of unity. We are all encouraged to be sincere to Allaah first and foremost and know that Allaah is more jealous at protecting His deen than anyone else. It will be protected and it is moving forward upon a correct basis but it has gone through difficult periods. Allaah guides whom He wills. Salvation lies in being with the inheritors of the Prophets to take from where they take from the authentic sunnah not spekaers who concoct their own isolated individual opinions not connected to the path of the pious predecessors. Patience, steadfastness, calling upon Allaah for guidance and humility and submission to the Book of Allaah and the Sunnah of the Messenger sallallaahu ‘alaihi wa sallam.

    Ali Tameemi lecture to the salafees showed that he split away from the scholars by introducing four categories of tawheed and calling upon mixing with other groups. Hiw political stance were similar and in-line with those inprisoned in Saudi for going against the sunnah and speaking out against the governemtn OPENLY. This is why they left him, it was not personal, it was about seeking the truth.
    Abu Muslimah was calling to himself isolated from the scholars in his time and establishing the hudood within his own community.
    You may dislike something that is good for you. Salafi da’wah in America and across the world is not in decline nor is it about to fall. On the contrary, the correct understanding of it is being strengthened and although due to some speakers has been through some rough times, it is growing and with the brotherhood and correct mannerism bad changes are being made for the better. Purification and education together will improve the situation. Too much of one without the other was one of the problems.

    May Allaah guide us all to the truth. Ameen.

  7. As-Salaamu ‘alaikum,

    I started reading about Islam myself during the “cut and paste” era as you called it, and the denunciation culture which caused the bitterness you refer to around the turn of the (21st) century was in evidence as early as the mid 1990s when I first ran upon the Essex Uni Islamic Society site. That site had whole sections dedicated to denouncing various scholars and other personalities that, I was later to discover, were barely known of over here anyway other than as bogeymen to the Brixton type “salafis”.

    The movement may have died down a bit, but its legacy is still apparent. I have approached three women of Somali extraction for marriage in recent years and each one has foundered on “salafi” concerns when the sisters did not consider themselves (or at least did not say they considered themselves) part of the sect or movement. One of them asked me question after question about my Sufi commitments and later refused to continue because I hold Ash’ari ‘aqida (“this is ‘aqida we’re talking about”). Another didn’t like my madhhab (Maliki) and insisted that I always follow the majority position, as if Islamic scholarship was some sort of democracy.

    My own hunch is that the Saudis who were so keen to supply the western “salafis” with religious material actually didn’t care for them much as people, as they clearly failed to invest in the community and make it self-sufficient in terms of business. This may well be why it fell apart so spectacularly during the “Qutubi inquisition” as the TROID/SPUBS camp called it – although if they had, the consequences might have been even more severe with medium sized businesses going bust as the workforce or directors fell out with each other.

    1. assalamu ‘alaikum,

      im not a convert. i was born into islam but had to take my own journey into finding out what islam was all about. i got most of my info from the quran itself aswell as hadiths. And have never looked back.
      ive been to one of these seminars a few years ago and they offer nothing of any real ( £ 67 sterling ) value that cant be found in the quran.
      One of my friends went to one of al magribs seminars yesterday in manchester. england. and found it to be akin to an evangelical church type atmosphere where all the vounteers were dressed in the purple of the website and were pretty much worshipping the speaker as opposed to God. There was nothing in the seminar which was focussed on improving community relations with other faiths, helping charities and anything of a practical nature which strengthens the umma.
      i must admit it will be interesting to find out if this is purely a profit making venture? does the money go on building grandiose buildings for administrators, wages and lifestyle of the speakers/ organisers.. or on charitable causes around the world?

      i know i can be a cynic at times but i get that way when it costs money to learn about your faith…and a large cost aswell.

  8. Umar, this series seriously broke my heart a little bit. It’s really hard for me to think of people so full of hope and faith and just watching it crash and ruin lives. I am not a Salafi and doubt I ever will be; however, I’ve seen the exact same pattern happen in a lot of religious movements and have many friends and acquaintences who have been seriously burned, sometimes to the extent of losing their faith. The funny thing is, a LOT (though not all) of what you describe seems to cut across many movements. I’ve seen it occur with Sufi orders, members of a couple Shia movements, The Hare Krishnas, and Chabad-Lubovitch Jews (though on a smaller scale than you’re talking about, especially with the last one). Obviously all these movements are signifigantlu different, but this pattern seems to crop up a lot, especially in a western setting. I think it’s the logical end-result of giving too much power to fallible humans and relying too much on arbitrary social distinction and not enough on allah, common sense, and basic human decency.

  9. Well written–you put a lot of heart into this series.

    While I personally experienced the salafi movement on the periphery, (I never claimed to be a salafi)I honestly must say that the crux of my Islamic knowledge came from this movement, this fervor that affected my community.

    I think I can speak for many sisters from my area/era who also received their free “Islamic Libraries” courtesy of the KSA in the late 1990s; we all read Kitab at-Tawheed and did not understand it, so then had to have a halaqah and a teacher, and we thought we were truly empowered with the knowledge of the deen. We sat with our Mustafa Zahran and Muhammad Adly tapes and memorized surahs from “Quran Made E-Z.” I must have owned 50 khutbah tapes (or more) from Abu Muslimah.

    Then we witnessed fitnah, big fitnah in the sisterhood..sisters pronouncing other sisters as deviants or this and that, fights breaking out at the Eid prayer when someone said “Eid Mubarak” (That’s not in the Sunnah, sister!!!) instead of TakabAllahu minna wa minkom. Silliness. Emptiness. Meanwhile many sisters kept having baby after baby and thinking it was their Islamic duty to homeschool eight kids and be dirt poor.

    Like you said, much of the problem lay within the isolationism and the condemnation of anything not ‘Salafi;’ it was a self-destruction that could have been avoided by simple things such as teaching jihad-an-nafs instead of putting countless hours into categorizing deviants or refuting the aqeedah of others outside of the Salaf.

    Many of us who were on the periphery and not “in the thick of it” I think came out not nearly as scathed as you did, but we have had to start over again learning our Islam and seeking knowledge–having to re-evaluate much of what I thought I knew or what I thought was correct, and most of all, learning what I believe was lacking in the movement from the get-go: profound tolerance.

  10. When you want to eliminate a threat you go after the voices of reason within that threat. Like Sheikh Ali Al-Timimi.

    The super Salifis were never a threat and would have and did self destruct. The same super Salifi brothers that everyone avoided due to their harshness and intolerance, are the ones that most likely were along for the good ride. After times turned bad they moved on to something else.

    Those brothers that have sincere Love for Allah (ta aala) and his messenger (saws), and hold on tight to the Quran and Sunah are left to pickup the pieces. Many of those brothers have left the country with their families so they can continue to learn and practice the Haq without compromise. And the brotherhood/sisterhood is very strong. Alhamdulillah.

    Is Islam a threat? Absolutely it is when you are championing a system that has failed socially, and there is a movement regardless of how small it maybe that adresses those failures and greatly attracts the lower middleclass and lowerclass of the society. A movement that doesn’t play by the same rules where the people are bound by the Love of their creator and his word, and his prophets more than all of the drugs, sex and distractions you can push on them.

    Someone will undoubtedly ask: If the american system is such a failure socially why are so many people trying to get to america from Muslim countries?

    Take america’s wealth out of the equation and see how many will want to come. Most are coming from poor countries, and they’re looking for a paycheck. How many come from the rich Gulf states? Other than for education?

    Those countries are either secular or monarchies that restrain Islam as much as they can and also have major social problems. Thats why we see a resurgence of Islam all over the world. When the people of Palestine voted they chose an Islamic party. Same goes for Egypt, Algeria and any other country.

  11. Wow great series, a real eye opener. Many info i did not know. I do not think the problem is with the Salafi crowd you mentioned as they were small but its their influence they had with the other crowd, the Ikhwans that created the problem for muslims and many Sufis.

    That influence is what led many of them to remain silent about what happened to the salafis. Its the influence salafism had on ISNA, ICNA and CAIR via the Muslim Brotherhood that created the problem for many muslims as the Salafi influence hindered the political and social progress these groups had. That led to it being shunned by many liberal minded Muslims who could not fit in the Ikhwani thought process such as myself. AS 911 occurred and people began to investigate, the shadow of the Salafi influence in the Ikhwan began to emerge. Just read what the MSA website has to say about Ghazali and tasawwuf to know what i mean. Listen to the fatwas of former Isna president Dr. Muzammil Siddiqui about tawassul and Sufism to know what i mean. The conflict between Kabbani and people like Maher Hathout and CAIR was about that influence. These came to haunt these Ikhwani groups after 911 as they tried to present themselves as “moderate and mainstream” and found many Jewish and right wing groups exposing these links between these Ikhwani groups and salafi theology hence the phrase the “wahhabi lobby”. This is the reason behind the animosity Umar, i tried to explain in the Stephen Schwartz and Hamza Yusuf issue. Its about the Ikhwani groups and the Salafi influence mainly because the founder of the Ikhwan , Hassan Al Banna, established the Salafi theology as the base for the group and rejected Sufism although not outright. In the 70s with Saudi help, the Ikhwani became more pro Salafi and anti Sufi especially the ISNA crowd. It was much easier for someone like Imam Siraj Wahhaj to make it to the ISNA podium or the CAIR board of directors than a Sufi sheikh.A culture emerged where Salafi theology flourished unchallenged till extremism looks like took over and brought it down.

    This influence was established mainly in Egypt where Saudi Arabia was in conflict with Gamal Abdul Nasser and Arab nationalism. Saudi then pumped a lot of money on its biggest enemy the Muslim Brotherhood and the relationship continued even stronger in the USA via the Muslim World League where the Muslims Student Association(MSA) was formed. This is what i was trying to explain, Umar, about religion and politics in the Arab world. They go hand in hand. Then ISNA was formed and then ICNA and etc. CAIR was an offshoot of Hamas which itself is branch of The Muslim Brotherhood. All this led to one thing, the cutting off of the Sufis and liberal muslims whose political and theological outlook disagreed with the Muslim Brotherhood. Hense the animosity the Sufis feel and the distance that now these groups(Ikhwanis) want to keep from the Salafi persuasion because after 911 they see that this influence is haunting them.

    The Muslim Brotherhood of Egypt today is paralyzed because of this. While other Islamist(Hassan Turabi, Rached Ghanouchi)have moved on, they remain paralyzed. Even the Islamist in Algeria and Iraq moved on from the Salafi understanding of Islam. Accepted Democracy and women rights grudgingly and moved on. There is nothing wrong with Salafi style you are talking because it was not political but socio religious. The groups you refer to payed the price but they were not involved in politics. Its its ties (Salafism)with the political Islam that is deadly. This is what you are seeing with Bin Laden and Ayman Al Zawahiri appearing together, the Muslim Brotherhood Salafi link.

  12. Umar, bro:

    You write about the Salafi movement in a praise-worthy way, and mention it’s elements in a positive light (that of your experience) – while I recognize some benefits within that movement, I’d like to mention my own experience and address what I saw in that light.

    I accepted Islam in the late 90s after – late high school, punk & hip-hop & social activism – reading from three muslim minds: Imam Ghazali, studying Rumi, and Malcolm X. The Islam that I encountered was immediately intellectual, astute, spiritual, and aware – something that I didn’t encounter with many of the muslims I met.

    While I prayed (and eventually learnt some Hanafi/ Deobandi fiqh from) the Tableeghi Jamaat folk, I also read and encountered every other muslim group – though my most memorable impression of Salafis from that time was their escaping from the local Salafi mosque (as they said, “dar-ul-ikhtilaf” to pray in the Gujarati /Tableeghi mosque, while still mocking the prayer (“the imam made 23 mistakes” was the greeting one brother made after finishing the ‘asr Salaat) and deen of their brethren.

    An aggressive attitude, on the streets with pamphlets and shouting in the mosques, a self-righteous attitude and conformist appearance (scraggly beard and loose-fitting thobe) was what one saw of ‘Salafis’ – and you could forget even discussing Imam Ghazali or Traditional Islamic fiqh with them, they wouldn’t have read Imam Shafi’is Risala, but what little they picked up from Abu Ameenah Bilal Phillips told them that every methodology but their own was deviant.

    Hearing ‘shirk/bidah/kufr’ repeated ad nauseam, meant that I stopped talking with them – there were cultural problems in the Indian sub-continental muslims, but they were at least polite to me, if not understanding of western culture and the issues a ‘former Christian anarchist’ might bring, and uninterested in dawah.

    I also met ‘Sufis’ who were clearly deviant – and abandoned them, but it was encountering a genuine scholar from a Qadiri tariqa, with the knowledge of Qur’an and Sunnah, and the practice and adaab that one saw in the text – that made me sure that it wasn’t just in the books, but that the Sunnah was meant to be encountered and lived, beyond the thobe and the miswak.

    I met the TROID people in Toronto – and talked with them, visited their mosque, and found some young kids who while sincere and dedicated to practicing the deen as best they knew, refused to consider the basis of what they were saying, and the crude manner in which they were assaulting others – their self-righteousness had absorbed them.

    I remember one Algerian brother in particular, who though some brothers I knew (Jamaat-ul-Fuqra, incidentally) had helped him out when he first entered Canada as a refugee, had moved over to the ‘salafi jihadist’ side, and spent his time “purifying the deen” and assaulting (physically, in my case, saying I was “a Christian missionary! Asha’ri deviant! Sufi!”) brothers who disagreed with him. While other Salafi brothers disagreed with him, he was left in his ‘teaching’ position in the daw’ah center.

    I also lived in Saudi for a year and half, and saw what indulgence goes on there, while the population starves, and most of the ‘salafi jihadists’ rant in private homes or khutbas, the Sau’di State is far more craven to the US administration than even pro- neo-con ‘sufis’ like Kabbani.

    In summation, I think I’d agree with bin Gregory in the other post – while Sunni muslims would agree in theory with all of your ‘if “Wahabis” believe this’ post questions, your attitude and demeanor is not going to lead towards the reconciliation you call for (which ignores that Salafis, including ‘Let’s unite’ Yasser Qadhi, who has certainly slandered Sufi scholars such as Imam Mohammed al-Alawi al-Maliki – calling someone ‘kufr and mushrik’ is serious, bro – you what happens to one who’s takfir returns to him)

    In brief, I would hope for reconciliation between muslims, but that has to be sincere amongst Salafis – along with a recognition that the rhetoric of blaming “Sufis, Jews, Americans” for their own problems is just not a workable strategy.

  13. Abu Sara:

    You are spouting off AT LEAST one LIE that has been repeated, and that is about Abu Muslimah. He has NEVER called for the hudood to be implemented in his community. I know him PERSONALLY and have known him for some time, and he is not as you or TROID represent him.

    As for your representation of the current state of the dawah, then I don’t know which America you are living in, but in the one I live in, there are hardly any brothers remaining.

    Yes we should respect the scholars and scholarship, but they are not ONLY in Saudi Arabia. You all’s vision of Islam is for every masjid in America to be lifeless, dour and listening to tele-links all the time with no other activity at all.

  14. This was a good story that I can identify with on some levels in my former marriage. When I first met my husband, he was a “strong salafi” with a long beautiful beard, he wore thobes and was hard on others for not following the Sunnah. To make a long story short, he descended to the point where no longer has a beard, drinks alcohol, doesn’t pray or fast and I am not even sure that he is Muslim now. At best he is BARELY Muslim. At worse he is an apostate. “Salafi Burnout” is real…I have seen it and it can be devastating.

    Alhamdulillah, I was one of the lucky ones because I completed my degree while we were married and I have a good job and I am able to take care of myself and our kids. I feel so sad for those sisters who were forced to stay with their husbands as they reverted to their old ways because they had no way of taking care of themselves due to lack of education or job experience. I have heard of salafi niqaabi sisters taking their clothes off and leaving abusive salafi husbands and returning to the arms of a kaafir who “knows how to treat a woman”. It is really sad.

  15. as salaamu alaikum wa ramatu Allah. I’ve been Muslim for a few years now and had a very negative impression about salafies (due to the stories I’ve heard – continue to hear, particularly in reference to the black Muslim community – about them in philly and the few salafy sisters I’ve came in contact with). I’m have mixed emotions about this – I feel sad that I never got a chance to experience the good days, but joyful I missed all the drama that came along with it. The sadness is due to the fact that as an American convert, many times I do not feel a complete connection to the community, though I am very active at the masjid and in my community. Part of me is just longing for the day, I truly feel connected.

  16. Assalaamu alaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakatuhu,

    This was a very interesting read..I actually read these posts before even checking my e-mail in the morning. I have a ton of questions though. I have been with those brothers who openly attribute themselves to the Salafee Da’wah for almost two years now; they are linked to TROID, Spubs and such organizations although most of them are not as harsh/hardline at least as the stereotypical Salafees. I also take AlMaghrib classes, and frequent other conferences if I feel they may be beneficial (whether it’s a Zaytuna function, or RIS) as sometimes those seminars address issues of purifying the heart that are lacking amongst the Salafiyyoon, yet it is part of the manhaj of the Salaf to cleanse the hearts.

    However, I’ve got some questions for you. You mentioned that there appeared some ulemaa that no one had heard of after the passings of Ibn Baaz, Al-Albaanee, and Ibn Uthaymeen (rahimahumullah). Where were the likes of Shaykhs Ahmad An-Najmee, Rabee, Ubayd, Muhammad Al-Anjaaree, Zayd Al-Madkhalee, Muhammad Al-Madkhalee, Saalih As-Suhaymee, Muhammad Ibn AbdulWahhab Al-Banna and Falaah Ismaeel (hafidhahumullah) during the lifetimes of Ibn Baaz, Al-Albaanee, and Ibn Uthaymeen. I ask because it is usually the scholars I just mentioned who are known for bringing the refutations on individuals or speaking in defense of the TROID/Spubs crew. On top of that, some of the famous du’aat who have spent years studying in the Jamiyyahtul Madeenah have told me that no one really refers to “Ahmad An-Najmee and the two Madkhalees” except the TROID/Spubs crew. However, it seemed that reading what the three A’immaa of the generation said about Shaykh Rabee and Shaykh An-Najmee’s scholarship on paper(from fatwa-online) seems to me that they are legitimate kibaar ul ulemaa. I would agree that sometimes they are fed information that is not correct and give rulings based upon that, and of course Shaykh An-Najmee is in the middle of nowhere, in Jeezan so he could be out of touch as to what the Muslims really need in America. So I would appreciate if you could answer these, you can e-mail me if you do not want to post it on the comments.

    In summary, what I see of the Salafees is that they are strict in their principles and they say about Ali At-Timimi, Abu Muslimah, Abu Usamaah that they went against the manhaj(and they bring the proofs) and they say “Although these brothers were loved by us, we are about preserving the manhaj and not the people, our walaa and baraa is based upon the Haqq”. They said that they have ulemaa who have preceded them in this (Shaykh Rabee for Abu Muslimah and Shaykh Najmee/Zayd Al-Madkhalee for Abu Usamah); I’m not sure what radd they have for Ali. Some brothers do get carried away and throw whoever they feel makes a mistake off the manhaj; for instance, I talked to the Imaam of the local Salafee masjid about Yasir Qadhi being refuted on a 45 page PDF on Troid and he disagreed with it, along with alot of the stuff on Salafitalk based upon there were no ulemaa making such statements. However, there is still that attitude the anyone who goes to conferences that are not openly Salafee, whether it is Texas Da’wah, ISNA, RIS, JIMAS should be looked at with suspicion if not labelled a hizbee. JazakAllaahu Khair for the posts.

  17. Umm Farooq wrote:

    Then we witnessed fitnah, big fitnah in the sisterhood..sisters pronouncing other sisters as deviants or this and that, fights breaking out at the Eid prayer when someone said “Eid Mubarak” (That’s not in the Sunnah, sister!!!) instead of TakabAllahu minna wa minkom. Silliness. Emptiness. Meanwhile many sisters kept having baby after baby and thinking it was their Islamic duty to homeschool eight kids and be dirt poor.

    Tell me about it. Those things were enough to start a war. I never understood how a person without any credentials or even a high school diploma thought that they could homeschool. Much of it came from us trying to make ourselves suffer in the name of taqwa. It is one thing to go through tests and suffering as we all do, but to put the suffering on yourself is something else

  18. abusarah im sorry to say this but your post reminded me of the narrow mindedness and ignorance of many of those who equate themselves to “salafi dawah”.

    You mention “introducing” a 4th category of Tawhid. Please know that the Prophet saw never taught CATEGORIES to begin with my dear brother as far as I know. These were simply categories the ulama came up with to help Muslims understand tawhid and shirk.

    In our times, the 4th category is sometimes used to explain that ruling by Allah’s rule is also part of tawhid.

    Really, when you learn from like 4 scholars and make everyone else deviant, its likely that yu’ll come with these types of opinions. Because these are opinions. A scholar that you learn from isn’t infallible so his opinion can also be mistaken. So to try to fight everyone else with an opinion is kind of wacko don’t you think?

  19. As Salamaualikum,

    I can just about to remember the good old days in the UK. But the fitnah knocked me sideways for a while.

    It is sad to see salafis still sprouting the same old late 90’s Salafi polemics and distortions with regards to Ali
    Timimi for example, I cannot beleive that people still think he was calling to 4 types of Tawheed, and even if he was that that means he was splitting awat from the scholars! Whatever that implies. Seriously, a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing. This typifies what went on with the Salafi problems in the 90’s. If the zealous ones had listened to the advice of people like Shaykh Ali Timimi who warned of this cancer which had started in 96 we would have been better off. As it happened it was mainly the talks and courses of
    Shaykh Ali Timimi from 97 onwards which he conducted in London which had a tremendous impact on the Salafi movemement in the UK. Hence you still find many strong brothers and sisters in London even after 9/11 who are active, in high eman insha’allah whereas the Salafis in the US or the SP style Salafis in Uk are dead. Unfortunately by that time most Salafis had sected themselves and avoided good brothers like Ali as a religous obligation, thus depriving them of much needed knowledge and Eman boosting when the times got tough. I think this was an example of group control which was effectively practiced by many zealous Salafis in those days.

    We have to move on. Islam is not in need of us we are in need of Islam.We need to strive for the rest of our lives to establish the religon, the good old days will actually be the days of the future insha’allah….but it was good to reminicise..for a while.

    Jazakhallah Khair Umar i enjoyed reading that.

  20. As Salamaualikum,

    I can just about to remember the good old days in the UK. But the fitnah knocked me sideways for a while.

    It is sad to see salafis still sprouting the same old late 90’s Salafi polemics and distortions with regards to Ali
    Timimi for example, I cannot beleive that people still think he was calling to 4 types of Tawheed, and even if he was that that means he was splitting awat from the scholars! Whatever that implies. Seriously, a little knowledge is a very dangerous thing. This typifies what went on with the Salafi problems in the 90’s. If the zealous ones had listened to the advice of people like Shaykh Ali Timimi who warned of this cancer which had started in 96 we would have been better off. As it happened it was mainly the talks and courses of
    Shaykh Ali Timimi from 97 onwards which he conducted in London which had a tremendous impact on the Salafi movemement in the UK. For example:

    Hence you still find many strong brothers and sisters in London even after 9/11 who are active, in high eman insha’allah whereas the Salafis in the US or the SP style Salafis in UK are dead. Unfortunately by that time most Salafis had sected themselves and avoided good brothers like Ali as a religous obligation, thus depriving them of much needed knowledge and Eman boosting when the times got tough. I think this was an example of group control which was effectively practiced by many zealous Salafis in those days.

    We have to move on. Islam is not in need of us we are in need of Islam.We need to strive for the rest of our lives to establish the religon, the good old days will actually be the days of the future insha’allah….but it was good to reminicise..for a while.

    Jazakhallah Khair Umar i enjoyed reading that.

  21. salam… I’ll need more time to digest all the info. here, but the collection did touch on many of our experiences, as a group of MSA students in Houston. Mostly immigrants, so we were the few (dare I say the proud) who were not converts in the QSS crowds. Yasir Q. was our friend and main influence, and he affected many of us, and continues to affect us and many more now. And Mashallah he modified his approach early on (re: TROID, etc.), and continues to do temper his message and re prioritize his efforts.

    In any case, I think the title did seem a little out of the place…and it is already being used pejoratively by some (Eteraz referred to this series, so you know they weren’t using it in context of the content)..I feel that it wasn’t the demise of the dawah, but more a sub-group within the dawah that “crashed” or “shrunk”. Or alternatively, the organizational aspects (QSS/IANA) disappeared… but the dawah is healthy, though it is going through a ‘return to roots’ kind of affects, i.e. to remove the marginal elements, and those who would like to bring those marginal opinions into the dawah as being the only “salafi” opinions.

    Br. Umar, on Texas Dawah, I can speak to you from a very intimate point of view. I took Texas Dawah (TDC) to the national level in 2003 with the help of Allah of course (Sh. Waleed and myself were the main organizers)… And I continue to stay involved with it, though my move to NE has tempered my ability to organize too many things for TDC. So, I can speak for TDC, and I can tell you that we did and do recognize the lack of “native” Muslims. As far as their numbers… I would suspect that we have about a 5%, so it is more than 1% but still a long way to go…

    Do understand that Houston doesn’t have that many converts (esp. African Americans who are upon the “Sunnah”… most of them are influenced by WD Muhammad)… Most of our target audience reside up in the NE. So, travel costs is a natural impediment, esp. for those who do not have significant means. And as you know, the TROID/SPUBS’sh influence is very strong up here in Philly, etc… and they consider TDC/Maghrib as not being on the “haqq”.

    However, we would like to improve/enhance the “convert” participation… If you would like to be part of the solution, then that can be done! TDC has and is always open to change, and constructive criticism. We pride ourselves in being flexible, and “fresh”. So, feel free to email me, and I can get you involved, if you wish and if you have the time. TDC is very special to me and a lot of people. It is the only Conference of its kind left in America, and it is different from all others in methodology, and in the type of programming. It has the potential to become a lot more… if the people on the Dawah of Ahl-Sunnah want it to be.

    jazakAllah khair for the excellent rendition.

  22. Aboo Sumayah wrote:

    In summary, what I see of the Salafees is that they are strict in their principles and they say about Ali At-Timimi, Abu Muslimah, Abu Usamaah that they went against the manhaj(and they bring the proofs)

    If I may chime in, what happened after these brothers were boycotted? Why did the entire institutions that were built – with much money, sweat and tears – have to be destroyed????? Why did families have to be broken up?

    What was the dawah like when the above mentioned brothers were in charge and what was it like when the Madinah dropouts and those who “sat” in Yemen took over?

    Were not those who took over the dawah from the likes of Abu Muslimah and Abu Usamah the same ones that marry for a period and leave the pregnant not to be heard from again? Aren’t these the same brothers who use their status as a “daiee” to get wives in much the same fashion a Baptist preacher does to get es?

    Why were brothers with these social problems hoisted upon us as examples of “noble du’aat” while an honorable family man like Abu Muslimah was slandered to no end??????

    Marriage did not become the joke it is today until they took over.

    You lead by example

  23. Assalaamu alaikum,

    I am not aware of the conditions of the current du’aat although I have heard some things through the grapevines especially the brothers from SP in the UK. So there are two issues here; that the scholars (as I have mentioned above) do not understand the dynamics going on as a result of a boycott, and secondly: these issues (of the du’aat abusing their rights) should be taken back to those scholars (if they are the ‘ulemaa’ in the first place..perhaps that is the question).

    My post was not addressed to societal breakdowns or marriage problems in the first place and as a single brother in college I am not speaking from that perspective, but from the perspective of ‘seeking the truth’. JazakAllaahu Khair.

  24. If I may add…no doubt that the fact that there was a societal/family breakdown due to the boycott and character assasinations indicates that this is a far greater evil than accomodating whatever ‘bidah’ the du’aat were that is agreed upon. That is a whole another angle that Umar addressed which was quite insightful that I had no idea about.

  25. As salaamu ‘alaykum Umar,

    I hate to skip over all that you’ve written and focus immediately on the comments about AlMaghrib, but at the same time maybe it is good to focus on where we are now and where we go from here.

    The main point I would make is that AlMaghrib is designed to teach Islamic sciences to people, it is not designed to be a movement. So saying it is not a movement which attracts converts is irrelevant.

    AlMaghrib was started in the Dar us Salaam community in Maryland which is designed to be a holistic approach to building Muslim community here in the West, and Dar us Salaam does have converts as a significant part of its community.

    I also think if one takes a step back from the idea of a “Salafi Movement” one might see that many of the most important ideas of the movement which were good and correct are actually as influential among all types of Muslims in the U.S. as ever before. If people have learned to abandon the nonsense and superficialities through the painful experiences of the recent past then this is nothing but good.

    No doubt there remains a need for strong Muslim communities in the U.S. that address the particular needs and issues of “Convert” Muslims. The fact that there aren’t such communities in general cannot be the fault of anyone except us Convert Muslims.

    May Allaah (swt) forgive us and allow us to do better in the future.

    There are some interesting attempts out there, however, for one close to my heart check out

    Allaah knows best

  26. As salaamu ‘alaykum,

    I know you think I always argue with you and am unfair to you in my comments ya Umar but I never saw the point of writing I agree with this I agree with this I agree with this in a comment. Forgive me if I come across bad.

    So I do want to clarify as a white convert who deals mostly with African American and other inner city converts and has also attended more than 10 AlMaghrib classes in cities all over the country that you are right that in general I feel when I’m at AlMaghrib classes that I am in a different world that really does not understand or relate to the issues I deal with in my masjid.

    Still I love all of the Shayookh and many of the students in those classes and always come away from the classes inspired by the beauty of the deen and having learned a lot that can benefit any community. We cannot expect people from different backgrounds to teach us how to deal with issues that we know and they do not know. We learn the deen of Islaam and the responsibility is upon us to create communities where the deen responds to the issues that we are faced with.

    And I don’t think anyone will disagree with that, so let’s get to work inshAllaah.

    MANA (Muslim Alliance in North America) is another group seeking to do this which inshAllaah will be becoming more active in the near future if people are looking for efforts to support.

  27. I just wanted to say I don’t know why I wrote the term ‘white convert’ in my post….although I understand that some other people may see me as white and I have to deal with the legacy of white supremacy in this country from that vantage point I do not consider myself as ‘white’ and hate to use that term for myself.

    I am in no way ashamed of my heritage, to the contrary as my kunya indicates I am very proud of it but I consider myself as Irish, a background with a language, with a history of struggle against oppression, identification with the oppressed and a belief in God, not some nonsensical background of ‘white’ which means nothing positive to me.

    Sorry for the digression but I had to say that.

  28. Abu Noor al-Irlandee, I am a so called African American. I am not from the inner city so I cannot relate to the struggles of those who grew up in such conditions. Why do you assume all blacks come from the inner city? Would it be fair to say all European American converts come from rural America and trailer parks? NO! I grew up on Long Island, surrounded by European Americans, I often attend functions at Dar Us Salaam community in College Park, MD, still I do not feel like I fit in because we the sisters do not like to stand near becaue of my brown skin.

    Neither PGMA nor Dar Us Salaam addresses the needs of converts (this is my issue with ummah and what causes me to feel disconnected).

    A few of these issues include the shock of dealing with racist Muslims; sisters not having walis, or being given a wali who will attempt to marry her to anything (a brother he certainly wouldn’t allow his sister to deal with); step parenting (my exhusband is Christian, so naturally I had to make one of the toughest decisions in my life and leave him, but I found some difficulty in finding a spouse because brothers ASSUMED I was looking for a father for my children, some sisters even told me to give them to their nonMuslim father so I could find a husband easier – fortunately I’ve never been in the game of shortchanging myself and my parents would have kicked my behind) – point is many men do not want to assume the role of stepfather, yet the sons of convert women need to have excellent examples of Muslim men in the home (same of the girls); adapting (not pretending ot be Arab, Pakistani or AFrican, wherever the husband is from. I’m probably the only sister who’s husband was FORCED to eat mostly American food because I refused to give evolve into something I wasn’t (a nonAMerican).

    Should I go to a masjid in the inner city, perhaps, but I’m sure I will still feel the disconnect since I am not a product of the inner city. Whatever they are dealing with may not relate to me, such as the sisters in Philly saying it’s okay to be on welfare (because it’s an act of piety).

    You should never be ashamed of who you are. I am black, not African American. My father is Native American, my mother is Native American and Black American. I am not ashamed of either legacy. The black folks who make the news because of whatever they are doing wrong do not reflect me and neither do the Muslims who are doing wrongs reflect me – I never apologize for either group, and have no intentions on doing so. It does get annoying at tiems because ignorant people tend to lump everyone in the same category, like one Arab guy asked me at work, what’s with all the black on black violence. I asked him the same – the oppressed and disenfranchised Arabs are acting the same way as the blacks in the Middle East (killing their own people)…aaah you should have seen his face ;)

    Sorry, Umar for going off topic

  29. As salaamu ‘alaykum Hanifah bint Will,

    I apologize if my comment was not clear but I was not trying to say what you think I was trying to say. I have never thought that all African Americans come from the inner city.

  30. Assalamu Alaykum
    I anxiously awaited the end of this series and alhamdulillah first I must commend the brother Umar for his well thought out and written series. Truly I enjoyed it. I used to be a Strong Salafee Sister (caps intended) I was married to one of the duaat that in the 90’s was really pumping the dawa. I remember the fitnah and kalam that came after all that stuff jumped off with Abu Muslimah..I remember the fitnah and animosity between Abu Usamah and Dawud Adeeb and I remember the phone calls that preceeded the creation of the SSNA and I remember thinking that the problem was not the Super Salafees (which is a term that came from the camp of those who were warned about) and it wasnt about minhaj..It was really all about personalities. The dawa was built in the UK and the USA on the backs of people worship and personality worship. You were judged by the collection of books and tapes that you had and the closeness of the relationship that you had to the major duaats at those times. NO ONE cared if the person that they were getting knowledge from was a good person or father. Noone cared if there were children who were abandoned by muslim men who used the dawa as an excuse to marry frequently and divorce just as fast!

    I remember sisters commenting on the way that I personally was treated due to who I was married to. They saw that there was some hero worship by association. I used to hear Masha Allah all the time and the envious look on sisters faces when they knew that I was so and so’s wife. Little did they know that I wasnt taught a thing nor were my children. They didnt know that I was as unknowledgable as they were. All they saw was the outside illusion of a strong salafee home.

    You couldn’t complain about your problems to anyone because the brothers you chose as a mediator would be afraid to lose the friendship of the man you were married to. Nothing was kept private because of their need to close to that man. It sucked being a “salafee” wife. It truly did.

    When Shaykh Al Albanee die..I cried. I cried because I knew that this was the end of the dawa in the way that we knew it, because even though my life was a sham..I really believed in the truth of the salafee dawa. After all we were practicing Islam upon the way and understanding of the pious predecessors..right? It HAD to be the right way. But after the big threes death it came to pass. After 9/11 everything changed. I dont think the Salafee dawa has recovered since and who ever thinks that the dawa is as strong as it once used to be is sadly wrong and living in a bubble. I dont think that the dawa has died but I think that as the younguns have gotten older and yes sisters are raising a gang oof kids alone…I believe a more centrified path of Islam has become more popular and t hats the way that it should be.

    I’m one of those sisters that fell off. And when I say that I fell off..I mean I fell off…I went from wearing full niqaab and jilbaab with gloves to wearing jeans, tims and a hijaab. I will listen to music occasionally and I dont shy away from the tv and honestly..I doubt if Im ever going to be a badge wearing salafee sister again but what I am is a more concerned, true to myself muslimah. I dont miss the atmosphere of lies and deception that overwhelmed the salafees in America. I dont miss the brothers clamoring to marry me based on my past and I dont miss the brothers that tried to persuade me to commit sexual acts because we were “getting to know one another”. I dont regret the children that I do have as a result of my marriages(yes more than 1) to salafee brothers and although I didnt complete my degree..I dont regret being an “uneducated” muslimah because Allah will always provide for those who are sincere and yes I am sincere so I am provided for(and I dont mean section 8 provision)…My point is please dont look down on the sisters from that era. We were like sheep protected from the putside world in a cocoon of chosen books, tapes and sister friends. Everything we did was controlled. Everything we heard was “spun”. When we were told of our husbands cheating ways…we accepted out husbands explanations because we were SALAFEE and salafees were supposed to be the best and stayed away from the lies(right??)

    Brother have inspired me to start a blog of my own. I doubt anyone would believe just how crazy my life has been and for a while I was very bitter towards the salafees for not being able to prevent the evil that did affect the sisters. I have to say I am a little afraid that someone may figure out who I am but you know what..who cares..(lol) maybe my story will really helps someone out there and I never ever want a sister to be in the kind of situation that I was in and to some degree still am. Good work Ahkee..and Jazak Allahu Khair!

    1. Salam sister,
      Have you started your blog?

      Your comments resonate with me very much – being a Muslim who is true to oneself and to his Lord is more important than the outer appearance of beards, niqaabs and thobes.

  31. Myopic Vison, I hope you use wordpress for your blog. Please stop by my blog and let me know when you set up.

    BTW….I think I know who you are but I could be wrong…I’m sure your story, unfortunately, is not unique. Don’t worry my lips are sealed.

  32. Assalaamu ‘Alaykum Wa Rahmatullaahi Wa Barakatuh.

    Jazaq Allahu Khairun Umar Lee for the well-written series.

    I believe the decline of the “salafi” movement and the subsequent feeling of “confusion”, “loneliness”, “emptyness”, “defeatism”, and “pacifism” that is found amongst many of its adherents today is really due to the “manifestation” of the manhaj that has been planted in the chests – it was only a matter of time for the “burnout” shall I say. Therefore one needs to look at the source in order to truely start the “rectification” process.

    Why is it after so much supposedly – “tarbiyyah & tasfiyah” in the form of lectures, conferences, books, etc reminding of the ahadeeth of the ghurabah, the promise of victory, instilling “tawheed”, “aqeedah”, “sunnah” & “salafiyah” etc that one finds oneself in this predicament? – this feeling of defeatism:

    – an internalized feeling of defeat, mournfulness and melancholia which eventually imprisons one in a dark everlasting corridor. It is like a labyrinth or a path that splits without end. Once one is trapped in that space, it is hard to get out of there. Defeatism drains the energy needed in order to revive. From this defeatism a collective frustration comes into being and one result of this frustration is to “blame others” without any desire for critical self-introspection.

    And all this to me is simply the fruit of the aqeedah & manhaj of irjaa and the straying away from the issues of al-Walaa wal Baraa.

    Personally 9/11 was a wake up call. A blessing and an opportunity to rectify oneself in line with the aqeedah and manhaj of “At Taifa Al Mansoorah” were true happiness really lies.

    Imraan bin Husayn quoted Allah’s Messenger (SAW) saying: “There will continue to remain a group from my nation fighting for the truth, dominant over those who oppose them untill the last of them fight Dajjal, the anti-Christ.” (Sunan Abu Dawood: vol 2, pp 686-7, no. 2478 and authenticated in Saheeh Sunan Abee Dawood vol 2, pg 471, no. 2170)

    On the authority of Abdullah bin Omar (ra). Once the Sahabah were seated with the Prophet (saw) and he (saw) began to relate to them some of the
    fitan (trials and tribulations) the Ummah will face. Then he (saw) said, “Then will come to you the fitna of the Duhayma, it will not leave any one of you from this Ummah except that it will reach them all, and when they say that the fitna has ended, it will increase, at that time a man will awake as a Muslim but will go to sleep as a Kaafir until all the people will become divided into two (clear) camps; the camp of Imaan, wherein there is no hypocrisy and the camp of hypocrisy, wherein there is no Imaan (belief). When this occurs, await the Dajaal (antichrist) on that day or shortly afterwards.” (Sunan Abu Dawood, Vol. 2 Pg. 496, Hadith no. 4242)

    “Do people think that they will be left alone just because they say – “We believe” and will not be tested? And we indeed tested those who were before them. And Allah will certainly make it known those who are true and will certainly make it known those who are the liars” (29:2-3)

  33. Sister Myopic:

    Although I was not married to a “daee” I know how you feel. It is really sad the horror that sisters have been put through in the name of “salafiyyah”, yet we are told to ignore all these problems and continue to endure and suffer for no reason. There is a word for it: A CULT. We have to resolve that because we are Muslims we don’t have to put ourselves through self-inflicted crap. More and more Muslims are waking up to that.

    I never wore Niqaab but I always wore very loose fitting jilbaabs (black, gray, and any other drab color you can imagine) and huge hijaabs but I no longer dress like that anymore either. Honestly, it was for show more than anything else. I didn’t want to stick out like a sore thumb so I dressed the way everyone else did for fear that I would be ostracized. I think that many of us, brothers included, didn’t want to feel like an outcast so we just did what everyone else did.

    I remember buying my Ex expensive cologne once but he never used it because he’d rather wear Indian Musk that he bought for $4 out of Khaleel’s car (fictitious name). I mean what was the harm in wearing cologne? Were you more pious if you wore musk rather than cologne? I look back at silly things like that and shake my head, I mean where is common sense in all of this?

    Now that I am divorced, my parents and I talk more freely about my relationship and several times my dad made comments that I was brainwashed when I was with my Ex. At first it would piss me off when he would make comments like that because it made it seem like I was a mindless child and I couldn’t think for myself. However, in light of all that I’ve heard through Brother Umar’s beautifully written piece, my dad was right, in a way I was brainwashed and so were so many others.

    Alhamdulillah, my family members are Muslim so I never broke ties with them and I am so thankful for their support because when I was down and out, who was there for me to help pick up the shattered pieces of my life? My family! As Brother Umar stated, so many “Salafis” chose to isolate themselves from their kaafir family members and in the end they had no one to run back when they needed help.

    I pray that many of the brothers and sisters who read this Series can take something positive away from all of this. I know that things are tough and there are a lot of regrets but be thankful to Allah (swt) that you aren’t one of the ones who left this beautiful deen.

  34. You know I have tears in my eyes from reading the last few comments. I just want to say how proud I am of so many sisters who stay in this deen despite the hardships they have endured. May Allah protect you and your families and make things easy for you.

  35. I can’t relate to much of what you wrote about Umar Lee, but I feel very sadenned especially the brotherhood that was lost due to the salafi divisions.

    I have also learned a great deal about the inner salafi movements in the US that the non-salafis or the Muslims outside of the salafi dawah don’t know about.

    I disagree that the salafi dawah has declined, but maybe to a convert’s eyes it is. Many converts are turning away from the salafi dawah, but many Muslims who were born Muslims are increasingly turning to AlMaghrib Institute and events like the Texas Dawah Convention.

    AlMaghrib is probably the biggest and largest salafi organization in North America. There is no doubt that all the AlMaghrib scholars are salafi, whether or not they follow a madhab in fiqh, they still are. There is nothing wrong in that, but for them to “run” away from the salafi label is like hiding from what they are really.

    I like to say that AlMaghrib are the moderate and cool salafis. MashaAllah! I have love for them, but disagree with them.

    JazakAllah khair for your very insightful posts.


  36. Salam alaikum:

    SubhanAllah!! My husband asked me to read these posts. The title was a ‘turn off’. I thought it would be another salafi-bashing post. So I told him, ‘not interested’. But he insisted that I do, so I did. And I must say, it really was sad but I also must admit, that I kept thanking Allah az-Zawjal for keeping me (us) in a place safe from the ‘fitnah’ yet in a ‘salafee’ envoirenment…houston!

    I too was introduced to this salafee dawah by my MSA…mainly br Sh. Yasir Qadhi. We used to invite speakers like Dawud Adeed, Jamal Zarabozo, Ali Timimi (may Allah free him and protect him) etc. And at that time I used to wish that I was also living in NJ!

    I found out about QSS and IANA split in 96 or 97 (I think). I still remember the day when I read the letter online of/from (I can’t even remember now) of br. bassam, and I cried and spent the whole week extremely depressed. I couldn’t understnad what was happening. How can salafees be not united!!
    But that was the time when our community was blessed with Sh. Waleed Basyouni (although we didn’t value him as much in the begining–to be honest *I* didn’t value him until I moved from Houston recently and found out about all these problems that happen else where but not Houston walhamdullialh). So Sh. Waleed, and Allah has blessed him with wisdom, distracted us from all these fitnahs and concentrated on teaching us deen, which was more important.

    ‘salafee movement’, I disagree with the term. However, I understand that it maybe ‘introduced’ to other differently. I never conceived of it as a ‘movement’ rather a methodology…methodology of salaf. So anyways, where I come from ‘salafee da’wah’ has not declined a bit walhamdullialh, rather prospered. The term ‘sunnah’ is not alien to people anymore in Houston. Although, the ‘major’ islamic center is still non-salafee.

    I have a lot to say. InshaAllah I will post it in a later post. I do have 3 children to take care of/homeschool (salafee way of raising kids huh!! :) ) so I do have limited access to net!

  37. Aslaamulaykum brother
    Great article articulated very well.
    Just wandering if you can put the whole 10 pages to be downloaded and printed if that is possiable.
    Jazzkallah Khayre

  38. Umm Reem:

    All of that sounds wonderful, but – as I discussed above and as Amad admitted – how many of those salafees in Houston are American converts? Futher, Houston is just one city in the US. I must admit that it upsets me when it keeps being mentioned that so much is being done in Houston, but converts are being left out. Amad mentioned that most of them are with WD Muhammad’s movement. Anyone ever bothered to ask WHY THAT IS???

  39. Umar, there are a lot of American Converts Salafis in Houston, particularly Latino . Actually when I went to TDC last year I saw alot of converts. They do tend to be more middle class and fit in more with the second generation immigrants. Although I do think there is a need to address the converts that are coming from a more disadvantaged background.

    The ones who are stuck out in Houston are those who don’t follow the Salafi Dawah. It is tough to try and find a class or a teacher to go to that is not in Urdu, which is why the first time I saw your post I was like, the Salafi dawah has declined cause it doesn’t look like that around here.

  40. Most are not with WD, most are wanderers.

    I say the main reason is that Houston is too darn big and Blacks are spread out around the city. And class issues. When you go to the masjids, most people do not speak to you and people tend to hang out with their ethnic group and class.

    But masha Allah that is changing, there are so many intermarriages here and young adults who are making an effort to bring different communities together. And amongst the Salafis, I would say here they are very diverse,.

  41. OK, I should have made this 0ne comment. The one issue where you are correct which is so annoying is that Houston masjids almost never puts an indigenous Muslim in a Leadership position. Now it could be that there are not many scholars here but I think the masjids should make an effort to bring scholars from other cities, because Masha Allah there are many knowledgeable AA Muslims in the US. I know that people complain that they never see an American giving the Khutbah or in leadership, but also that is on us (well I’m not a convert but Indigenous Muslims) who need be more proactive in building their own masjids or being active in Masjids and studying the deen basically creating the change they want to see.

  42. Um Abdullah:

    Everyone I talk to about TDC says that the amount of converts is very sparse – and certainly not like it used to be in the old days when there were over 1000 at sizeable conferences. Those that you are talking about are likely those that have decided to “pass” into the immigrant community. It is much easier for Latino converts to “pass”. How many African Americans did you see there? Were they actually salafi or were they just kinda there like yourself?

    I was going on Amad’s information when he said that most of the blacks are in the WD community

    Nonetheless, Houston is still one city

  43. Most of my friends are converts & Arabs (one thing my husband still doesn’t understand about me…why I can’t along with pakistanees! :) ), but then again my friends are not all the converts of Houston.

    Sister Henaa Gamal has a program for convert sisters and in fact, even I was supposed to be a part of that group but couldn’t, which brings me to my point–distances in Houston. It was too far.

    Daughters of Adam (all sisters) had converts involved in writing, organizing and attending conferences. I can only speak of the sisters.

  44. Allahu Akbaar!

    Great JOB Brother Umar.

    “Yet if they just want to rule over and control the servants of Allaah or want to run the affairs of the issues of the people, then akhee why don’t you just get yourself a flock of goats or sheep and then you can direct these sheep to wherever you want to direct them to! But as for the people they don’t have to check with you if they have another opinion! Some people just desire to control the affairs of people!” This has its place in the end.
    Well brother Umar, may Allah have mercy upon us all. This is my first and most likely last time writing into a blog. Allah knows best. At any rate I am one of those old-school brothers from the Dawah. Un-like some, I was blessed by Allah to be around since 1990. And as such, I have endured attacks from not only “new-type salafees” but even the old and by one of our well known American born duats due to my connection to another American born duat, and his supposed stance as it relates to a persoanlity named “Abul Hassan”.

    Yep, Daud Adib told brothers in KC that I was Khawaariji due to my being in the same community with Abu Usamah. And this was connected “only” to the Abul-Hassan testing among the “Salafees” after the Abu Bakr as-Sadiqq educational seminar 2002.

    What is funny, is I considered Daud to be a friend and brother. We even tried to do some business in the 90s’ when he was selling vitamin sprays and I was involved in halal certification. I even called him prior to my moving to the community with Abu Usamah to ask his opinion. Abu Usamah was with me when I made the call (they talked) and all was good at that time. He advised me to go and help Abu Usamah and then months later talked about Abu Usamah and myself like we were Kufaar. This was 2001-2003. Now lets be clear that when I made this call I was known to be salafee, and had been since 1990.

    Eleven years later (after I had taught many classes and given many many Khutbahs (across the US) from what I had learned from Shaikh Ali Sulaiman Ali, Abdul-Hakeem Quick, Bilal Phillips, Abdul-Hafeeth, Umar Abdur-Rahman, Abdullah Choudry, Muhammad Nur and others (all early graduates from Madeenah in the 70’s and 80’s), the fitnah arises its ugly head and the salafiyyah of myself and others gets called into question based on a man I/we have never met.

    I never did nor will I today (to please any ‘Amr, Bakr or Zaid) make the Tabdee of Abul-Hassan or my beloved brother Abu Muslimah, or any other brother due to those Mis-applied bogus principles that were being taught and spread amongst the Salafees by the Salafees.

    Ask a general question…Shaikh, what do you say and what is the condition of a man who says or does x-y-z……The Shaikh answers this general question then the “evil” brothers write and say….Shaikh so-and-so said Abu Usamah is …….!blah blah blah. That is so evil and wrong, but it happened on a continual basis. That my brother is a pure CIA move. If any one knows that it is me. Bait and Switch. Did Abu Muslimah and Abu Usamah or Bilal also have (WMD’s) weapons of mass destruction?

    They said,”So and So” can smell a Hizbee a thousand miles away…..etc. Well, I must tell you that that ability did not take affect until we (the Salafees) were harmed and divided by the likes of Shaikh Falih who (according to Troid and their blind following crew of “internet (lazy to read a real book) hizbeeyoon” ) was from the Major Scholars. Now that is/was a joke.

    But this DRAMA destroyed families, communities etc.

    As an Army ex-intelligence officer I saw the BLUE/RED political spin that was used by the Translators at TROID and Salafee Publications etc., to confuse and cloud the minds of the people with garbage and lies.

    Write about Abu Usamah or Abu Muslimah with a title that suggest that Ibn Taimiyyah as well as other Scholars from the past spoke about them in a bad way, knowing full well that the majority of the people did not have the slightest idea who these people where nor when they lived. It was all a scam.

    Now since these groups are getting smashed out by the REAL Major Scholars about the harm they caused, know that your clarification is needed.

    Know that you need to be as vocal as you were, when you were eating our Flesh.

    Where are the emails with the apologies from Daud Adib, Musa Richardson,MAAZ QURAISHI/Troid (old crew and new), Abu Khadeejah(Salafee Publications (old crew and new), oh yes Abdul- Munim and QSS, after you drug Muhammad al-Jibaly down into your abyss then you were killed by your own games. After you ate the flesh of IANA, you were eaten also.

    All of you. Write, type and show the people that you were wrong and Hizbee so that the healing can began.

    Give back to Abu Muslimah, Abu Usamah at-Thahabee, Abu Aminah Bilal Phillips, Jamaal Zarobozo, Muhammad Jibaly etc their rights.

    See that back door stuff that some of them have done admitting in private that they were wrong or played (into being ghuloo) in one email to this one or to that one is without making it known that you have caused many people harm. Some harm is irrepairable. Families destroyed, jobs lost, Masjids and other Islamic organizations destroyed.

    Why just as Waseullah Abbass said in the lecture he gave in the Sept. 2006 E-book by:

    “There are also some issues which do not necessitate splitting and division between themselves and the Jamee’yah. They describe the Jamee’yah with ‘Hizbiyyah’ yet they are the ones who left them and became hizbee and indeed they are (real) Hizbees! I debated the man who is called ‘Aboo Khadeejah’ regarding his opposition to the Jamee’yah in every small and big thing whether it was right or false, and he did not come with anything convincing, so I advise him and all of the brothers to leave off blocking off the way of their brothers and to take what they have been advised about if they truly want the Countenance of Allaah. Yet if they just want to rule over and control the servants of Allaah or want to run the affairs of the issues of the people, then akhee why don’t you just get yourself a flock of goats or sheep and then you can direct these sheep to wherever you want to direct them to! But as for the people they don’t have to check with you if they have another opinion! Some people just desire to control the affairs of people!

    Finally, I say to not enter into the likes of these issues which is poison to the Jama’ah, the Jama’ah of the Salafees. We do not see a Qadiyani talking about another Qadiyani, or one who has the ‘aqeedah of the ‘Asharees or the likes speaking against an ‘Ash’aree, we never see this! For this reason, take the lectures of the scholars and benefit from them. I give salaam to you and bid farewell to you and I hope that you spread my speech here fully without omitting anything via the (well-known) means of distribution,
    Wa salaamu alaykum wa Rahmatullaah wa Barakatuhu! ”

    There is more I could say but this is enough.
    Was-Salaamu alaykum

  45. Akhee Umar,

    Sisters were DIVORCED because they had the wrong position on Abul Hasan Al Maribee. A person 99.999999% of the people did not even know! Subhanullah, one such sister was PREGNANT and was divorced over this!!!!

    There were two sisters that were lifelong friends that broke up and became enemies over this issue

    Children were ordered to stop playing with other peoples’ kids.

    I can give you story after story of the lives that were destroyed over the fitnah. I wish the people would stop whitewashing it and pretending that this is not the case.

  46. Masha Allah, very well written posts. I appreciate the effort and energy this must have taken you.

    It is a big lesson to all of us that such fitna could have occurred from such minor details.

  47. Assalamu Alaykum know I read what you wrote and said to we go again.
    Ahkee I can NOT hardly respect any of those duaat simply because the majority of them are hardly pillars of good character and upstanding husbands and fathers(and no you do NOT get to count current wifelets who are oblivious to the 360 knowledge of their men)
    To me the dawa was corrupted by the self-glorification, yearning for recognition and systematic ego tripping that the majority of the Duaats in the US and UK have fallen victim to. In my opinion this dawa can NEVER be where it was in this era simply because the real issues will never be addressed either because of that fear of being seen as a backbiter or from the concept of hiding a muslims wrongs.
    Both sides confused the lay muslims with the minhaj wars and the result? Abu Tasneems in Egypt(again)? Right, Abu Usamah’s in some indo-pak masjid in Birmingham having to you-tube defend himself because of some expose program, Abu Muslimah’s in E.O but what a sad decaying place E.O remains…and we can go on!
    Until the salafees realise that there is a need for some internal cleansing..when they right the clear wrongs and oppressions that they have visited on wives, ex-wives, children, brothers…in fact all and any of the ones that they have wronged then there will never be any success.
    What happened to the dawa? We happened to the dawa but on the bright side ALlah will always keep the message clear for those who wish to know now and in the future.
    Umm Adam–I will definetly stop by your blog ..I know my story is similar but actually my story is a little more crazier than most(hehe)’ll see insha Allah

  48. salam… I know somewhat about AA brothers, its because I dealt with them. I used to give khutbas at the Texas City Masjid… a small little rundown place with nearly all of the 15 folks AA converts. Eventually, the WD movement came around town (started happening around the time I was leaving and was “completed” after I left), and they convinced the brothers there that they needed to return to “their own”…

    Trust me, the WD movement is very strong in Houston among AA Muslims. So, here’s more about Houston and AA Muslims:
    -We never had a Abu Muslimah or Abu Usamah or Siraj Wahhaj or a even a Dawud Adib there. Regardless of the negative effects that your story chronicles, many people came to Islam, not just the dawah, but due to being affected by these people. So, there aren’t that many AA Muslims at all there.
    -Houston’s expansiveness does have a role to play.
    -But that doesn’t explain it all… there is not one masjid that is majority-AA that isn’t WD. Most of it revolves around one very good, motivational AA speaker, Br. Wazir, who is the only real AA player on the scene.

    About TDC:
    -By far the biggest reason there aren’t that many AA converts in the crowd, because there aren’t that many in Houston.
    -Most of the AA Muslims in the entire USA are either WD or Super-Salafis… neither would attend TDC.
    -One of the main organizers is in fact an AA Muslim– middle class. He moved from Philly to escape the super-salafis.

    As I said before, if you have some ideas to change the converts-picture for TDC, I am sure we’ll be all ears.

    Finally, I would urge you, Akhi Umar, to consider the consequences of the title of your series. I have mentioned this before, but I can’t emphasize it enough. Consider how it can be used, and how it is already being used by those who won’t hide their glee in seeing more than just a split, rather a complete demise.


  49. Jinnzaman, since I have been part of the dawah since mid-90s, I can tell you that this was more of an internal conflict that anything else. I don’t remember a single time when the “traditionalists” caused a division/split in the ranks of the salafis.

    As far as the WWW, I do agree that “traditionalists” have gained a much better footing on the internet now. And I blame more of that on the internal implosion, esp. in losing the Spubs site (which was the most prominent before) to the super-salafis than any super effort on the part of the traditionalists. Again, there is no doubt, that the traditionalists did wake up to the internet reality, but let’s just say, the internal breakup did nothing but help the cause of everyone else.

  50. Although I am not yet a Muslim, I have been doing much research and pray that someday soon that God will guide me to reversion. This is one of the sites that I read regularly and I enjoy the posts. This particular series of articles was of interest to me as this sort of thing is what pushed me out of Christianity two years ago. I was part of a denomination that was imploding from within and although it claimed to be “of one body” was in reality a slintered menage of varying beliefs and creeds. I was to the point of entering one of the denomination’s seminaries, but the division and hypocrisy made me ill and drove me away. My point is that this sort of thing is commonplace in Christianity and I never thought of Islam as having divisions like this. I guess I have a lot more to learn.
    In regards to the discussion regarding organizations that cater to converts: where are they?

  51. Steve:

    The saddest part of this splitting was that it was over such minute issues. This was mostly political and personal and probably too complicated for a non-Muslim to understand. Simply put, we still all agree on the basics of Islam and there are none of us claiming that God is one in three or any such thing.

    We are human beings too and have a lot of problems. We are susceptible to the same issues as everyone else. Had we stayed away from these issues, I believe that the dawah would still be alive and well all over the country

    I’d advise you to keep studying and I am sure you will be convinced

    For convert information please visit:

    He will answer your concerns in a good way, Insha Allah

  52. Steve, I am glad that you are thinking about your purpose of being in this world. I am glad that you are thinking intelligently about Islam despite all the bombardments of anti-Islam propaganda.

    I have always maintained, that non-Muslims who think for themselves and ponder over their reality, need to look at Islam, and not at Muslims. Because unfortunately Muslims usually don’t form the best of examples to learn about what Islam really preaches. So, go to the basics. Learn about Aqeedah (creed), about pure Tawheed (monotheism)… and you will find that Islam is the ONLY religion in the hundreds of religions, sects, cults that has a clear definition of the Creator and the created– completely separate. It is the only religion where the Creator is not given attributes of the creation, and the creation is not given attributes of the Divine Creator.

    I would urge you to run to Allah as soon as you can, because our lives are completely out of our hand, and we can return to Allah at any time. So, don’t let your hesitations delay you for too long.

    If I can be of any help to you, you can contact me (my email is on my blogger profile— if you can’t find it, post a msg here).

    May Allah help you in your efforts.

  53. Br. Amad,

    Yes the only Masjids run by AA are in WD community, well I think that Muhamad Shareefs jamaat has a masjid, I’m not sure.

    But I still say most AA here are not affiliated with anyone and just float. When you go to the Eid prayer at Reliant you see so many AA Muslims that you never see at the masjids.

    Even those that go to the WD Muhammad masjid might not necessarily agree with their minhaj but its because they are made to feel welcome and people actually talk to you for the most part and understand your culture as opposed to almost every other Masjid in Houston.

    But there has been a lot of in fighting there so again those that left are left to float.

  54. Even those that go to the WD Muhammad masjid might not necessarily agree with their minhaj but its because they are made to feel welcome and people actually talk to you for the most part and understand your culture as opposed to almost every other Masjid in Houston.

    THAT is exactly the point I was getting at Um Abdullah. This is the thing issue people are ignoring and don’t seem to think is important

  55. So much to say, I don’t know where to begin. I’ve been an fervent follower of this blog for some time now but have never felt the need to comment till this series came up.

    Well, the schism that Umar mentioned is something that pains me much because I absolutely abhor the division between Muslims as it is. The whole sufi/salafi, sunni/shia, salafi/ikhwani/tableeghi conflict has always greatly disturbed me. Add to it a division among people who are supposed to be on the truth? Now that just gives me a headache.

    The “super salafis”: I used to call them “Madakhila/Madkhalees” until I realized that by labelling them, I became like them and fell into Shaitan’s trap.

    As I am young and didn’t experience the split when it first happened and only see remnants of it now among the salafiyya, I didn’t know the full effect of it until I read this series and the comments on the final post.
    Myopic Vison, may Allaah protect you sister, your story seems really painful and I sincerely ask Allaah to protect you and shower you with His blessings and guide us all. Ameen.

    Umar, scholars whom I personally know usually recommend staying away from these issues (“Groups and sects”) as they “harden the heart”. I even asked one Sheikh what we can do (as the new generation) to bring the people back together (after the split), he didn’t really answer me, saying that it’s an issue that needs a lot of time to explain blah blah.
    I’ve been waiting for the last part of the series hoping you’d give your opinion on the solution for this.

    So much more to say, yet I can’t organize my thoughts properly enough. Maybe because it’s so late. I just couldn’t stop reading the comments.

  56. Well, I want to qualify that this is from a womens perspective. Maybe men are friendlier but almost all my friends have had bad experiences at most Masjids in Houston. Alhumdulillah we socialize outside the masjid but if you are new Muslim its hard to penetrate those social circles.

  57. As salaam alaikum,

    I have so much to say and don’t know where to start. Not long after I took shahadah I was swept up in the whole Minneapolis Salafi movement without being aware of it. I thought their teachings were Islam. When a series of things happened like what you mentioned I “took a break from Islam” for many years even though I remained Muslim in my heart. Alhamdulillah, I moved to Miami and found in a more balanced community and got back on track.

    I’m back in Minneapolis now and it’s hard for me to feel like the Salafi movement is dying when their teachings are very much alive here (even though people may not self-identify as Salafi). Many of things you’re talking about are still happening here (down to the approved sheikhs).

  58. I even asked one Sheikh what we can do (as the new generation) to bring the people back together (after the split), he didn’t really answer me, saying that it’s an issue that needs a lot of time to explain blah blah

    Travelling Stranger, that is because the damage is so extensive and the hurt is so GREAT

    Some are so hurt that they want to be in a room alone with some of the people who caused the fitnah in order to beat them down!!

    Here are some things that can be done in order to BEGIN to heal the wounds:

    a) TROID/Spubs and the inquisitors need to apologize to everyone they slandered and start to endlessly make amends for the pain they caused. They need to walk ON FOOT across the country and visit every home of every person and PERSONALLY beg forgiveness for the massive fitnah they’ve caused. They divorced women from their husbands (giving them a so-called “khulaa”) in order to marry these sisters themselves or one of their boys can

    b) Certain “duaat” need to do the same thing as TROID, then stop speaking and giving classes and quietly get themselves out of the public light and not be recommended for marriage again.

    c) TROID/SP and others like them need to disband and take down their websites and never put them back up

    Then maybe we can start to heal

  59. Hmmm, I was trying to think if I do. I don’t think so but I’m pretty sure you know my husband. He knows everybody.

  60. Traveling stranger,

    That advice to so good. I think Muslims spend too much time on these things. When just need to basics and alot of tazkiyah, IMHO :)

  61. Has anyone ever done the math to get a gauge of how much money Al-Maghrib Institute is making? Take the average number of attendees. Multiply that by their fees. Multiply that by the number of events they hold a year. Heck, be modest and minimize those figures realistically. Seriously. Do it.

    You still end up with a ridiculously exorbitant amount that can not be justified for 2 days seminars whose themes are ripped off from self-help seminaries occurring all over the nation and with Islamic slogans thrown in.

    Brother Umar, you mention that Al-Maghrib caters to a demographic which can basically be summarized as “desi kids”. Yet, you refrain from mentioning WHY. “Desi kids” are the sons and daughters of high income doctors, engineers, etc. What makes that demographic different from African-American Muslims in the inner city?

    Think about it.

    I would like to see a SINGLE INSTANCE of ANY “Institute” in the history of the Muslim world that has made such a profit margin off of the dissemination of very rudimentary knowledge. Did the Nizamiyyah established by Nizam al-Mulk have rich egalitarians as their student body or were they the modest and outright poor seekers of knowledge? They were the latter while the former were outright shunned.

    Someone needs to advise these brothers that they need to make their classes free and operate off of donations only. If people don’t believe enough in them to give enough for them to sustain their activities then so be it. To make this deen a cash cow is just plain reprehensible.

    ..And I haven’t even gone into this being an undercover Salafi outfit incognito. The “Institute” is easily held culpable even without going there.

  62. Hazari, I don’t think you learned a single thing from Umar’s series here. Your pitiful comments about AlMaghrib is the same sort of bashing that Umar talked about in length.

    Have you organized anything before? Do you know the costs around the logistics, employees, etc? The shayookh who teach— they also have to earn a living to run their families. I know a lot more than your basic math about AlMaghrib and its finances. And all I can say is that your dismally wrong in your assertions. And what is more dismal is that despite the point of Umar’s lengthy treatise here, people like you will continue to pay attention to things that frankly they have no business in, and instead of looking at the good being done, they will look at how they can criticize it! Wallahu musta’an.

  63. Assalamu Alaikum,
    first of all there is nothing wrong with holding classes like that and charging money for it. Have you done the calculations yourself? The money for renting out the halls, the money for the plane ticket, the money for the binders and books they distribute, the money for the power points they make. Al Maghrib also has a full time staff that I am guessing are paid as well. (besides the scholars).
    The money that comes from Al Maghrib is also being used to further the Dawah in the West.

  64. To the sister who bemoaned referring to African-American converts as being from the inner city: The reality is that the bulk of African-American converts in the USA come from the inner city. There’s a plethora of sociological reasons as to why this is (the poor and down-trodden are always closer and more beloved to Allah) and I won’t even go into that as it is a digression from the issue at hand.

    The reason why these African-Americans from the inner city in particular are highlighted is because they are the ones who are brushed under the rug and FORCED to form their own communities. All this talk of them wanting to “be with their own” in is criminally untrue. They just didn’t find themselves compatible with Arabs and Indo-Pakistanis who owned liquor stores in their neighborhoods yet wound up in the Masjid on Friday and felt they were better Muslims because of their refugee status in the USA from the so-called “Muslim world”.

    This is a reality that has existed since Islamic history immemorial. Al-Jahizh (lit. “buggy eyed” possibly a racist epithet adopted as a nickname) had to fight for the rights of Blacks in the 9th century CE (Kitab Fakhr as-Sudan ‘ala al-Baydhan) and today leaders like W.D. Muhammad are fighting for those rights today. What do the two have in common? They both adhere to errant creeds. Al-Jahizh was a Mu’tazili and W.D. is..well you know…he’s W.D. Isn’t it a TRAGEDY that no one from the “Saved Sect” in either the 9th century CE or today fought for the rights of Blacks that deviants were the only ones to foot the bill??

    Then they criticise them from their lofty positions, “O deviants!”

    Often times those who rally under the “Saved Sect” cry are often knocking on the doors of the rich. The Ash’arites occupied servants quarters with the ‘Abbasids (and with the rulers of Bilad ash-Sham today) and the Salafis have their quarters with the Saudis. The meager People of Hadith always hid with cloaks over their heads and, though this introversion would have resulted in the death of any movement, they have always existed simply because Allah’s Promise is True.

    Any organization, group, movement, et cetera that neglects the poor and down-trodden while claiming to teach the Sunnah are more lost than anyone they could possibly teach.

  65. Amad, apparently you don’t take very well to criticism or any open expression of it. You take any criticism as the manifestion of evil. Do I not have the right to question the amount of money these groups make? You say that they need to cover the expenses of fancy binders, plane tickets, employees, etc.

    ‘Abdul Qadir al-Gaylani did da’wa which led to thousands of people accepting Islam simultaneously. How much did they pay him? I’m sure he had to feed himself and his family. However, I have never read about him having such enormous expenses on pictures and binders and employees. He also didn’t cater to the children and families of the umara’. He catered to the street. He was one of the most famous ideologues in the history of Islam and had he so wished he could have petitioned his students and followers for money, amassed a fortune that would rival the Khalifah’s, and financed da’wa missions to Japan. He didn’t and today’s du’at are not even worthy to tie his shoe. That’s not to put them down. It is a fact.

    So if I am wrong, and of course I could very well be, how about giving us some general figures that we can calculate to dismiss this thought, because, I assure you, there are scores other than myself with similar concerns. Jazak Allah.

  66. Salaam Aalikum

    Umar, although your name does not bring a face to my memory, I have no doubt we must have crossed paths more than once. I’ve been through all of this debacle that you have described; attended the QSS conferences in the prime of their heydays, personally knew all of the ‘big names’ and became 100 % infatuated with the whole facade…which brutally crumbled in front of our eyes due to the extremism of SPUB and TROID. But then 9/11 occurred, and instead of it being the final nail on the coffin, in reality I see it as the wake-up call that shook many salafis from the dream world they were living in. There are now a number of du’at and Institutes that are -in my opinion – beacons of light, even if they do not cater to specific ethnicities as of yet. And with all due respect akhi Umar, when Desi-Americans make up the bulk of Muslims in America, is it not refreshing that Desi-Americans make up the bulk of these Institutes and conferences as well? No doubt work needs to be done to show more representation from other groups, but as a non African American brother sitting in the ‘English’ section of QSS, trust me it was I who felt out of place (and of course the Arab side was full of Khalijis in their fancy thawbs and aromatic uwdh incense). So, no doubt from your perspective you might (perhaps rightfully) be pessimistic, but from someone who’s been through all that you said and now seeing this moderate, wise, toned down re-birth, I would say this is a new dawn. If these new kids on the block have learnt from the mistakes of their elders of the 90’s, insha Allah they will go a long way. Yes, no doubt due to all of this internal discord, those who claim to be ‘tradionalist’ have stormed the scene and taken the spotlight, but in the end of the day the academic integrity and solid theology of the pure fitrah will continue to attract more and more people to it, as it always has done. Also, the RAND reports and love-relationship that governments typically have with ‘traditionalist’ speakers speaks volumes in and of itself for those of intelligence.
    To conclude: your piece is a powerful piece of writing that brought back many bitter-sweet memories, but rather than consider this period a ‘fall’ I see it to be the dawn of a new era.
    I hope to meet you some time soon.

  67. I agree with Um Abdullah on tazkiya.
    Salafee dude, I was thinking more about what we can do. We can’t force others to change their ways.

    Umar Lee, I think people like you can do so much good, a change can be brought by insisting on following the way of moderation, and akhlaaq even with the opposition.

  68. as-Salâm ‘alaikum wa rahmatullah.

    Pretty interesting series of articles and an equally interesting take on things.

    Although I’m fairly new to Islam having converted mid-1999, I have to disagree with some of what was mentioned concerning Salafiyyah’s history—not so much in the US, but more so in North America as a whole. While I understand that this was your personal take on what transpired, there were some things which, according to my limited knowledge, were inaccurate, while others didn’t really convey the full realities of what occurred.

    With regards to Abū Muslimah and the whole “Amîr of the Salafîs of North America” fiasco, one thing that wasn’t mentioned was that the issue was brought before shuyūkh (Shaikhs Abū Hâtim Usâmah bin ‘Abdil-Latîf al-Qūsî of Egypt, and Shaikhs Abul-Hârith ‘Alî bin Hasan al-Halabî and Abū Usâmah Salîm bin ‘Îd al-Hilâlî of Jordan) to sort out the matter and judge accordingly. From what I understand, and Allah is more knowledgeable, is that Adly was the one who suggested to Abū Muslimah that he take such a position (which Adly then denied in front of the shuyūkh leaving Abū Muslimah to hang in the wind, so-to-speak). While I don’t believe Abū Muslimah was the great shaitân Dawud Adib and others made him out to be, there were definitely some methodologically-based issues with him that needed to be addressed. One brother I know who knows the situation very well once told me had the situation been dealt with differently (a lot less harshness and a lot more sincere advising from the likes of Abū Uwais—rahimahullah—, Dawud Adib, et. al.), there probably would have been a more positive outcome, and Allah is more knowledgeable.

    Another example is what was mentioned about TROID. For one, from what I know, TROID was formed before SSNA (with TROID being formed in the mid 90s, while SSNA some time after) and not the other way around, and Allah is more knowledgeable.

    Secondly, I also feel the articles gave TROID a lot more credit than they deserve in terms of having an influence on the Salafî community of North America as a whole than they actually had. While their presence on the internet was quite prominent (in large part to their website and often shameless and quite blatant self-promotion) I feel their overall affect on the various Salafî communities throughout NA (including their own in Toronto, Canada) was relatively minor—especially with those Salafîs who were not caught up in the fantasy land of the Internet. TROID also rode the coattails of others to get whatever status they did, such as Salafi Publications in the UK and Abul-Hasan Mâlik (the green man) et. al. in the North-East US. They were largely propped up by the likes of these groups and individuals and took their lead; they were (and are) not the juggernaut they are being made out to be.

    One thing I do generally agree with, however, is the state of the Salafî da’wah we find today. Anyone who doesn’t see the damage that has been done to it by the various fitan that have taken place within it (particularly among some of the scholars; e.g., accusations of ijrâ’, tamyî’, haddâdiyyah, etc., which in turn was used by some of the callers in the West to pursue their own personal vendettas) is turning a blind eye to reality. A lot of damage was done to the da’wah from within because of these tribulations. Then with the occurrences of 9/11 in US and 7/7 in the UK, the da’wah in the West suffered greater blows; this time from the outside in the form of persecution from the non-Muslims. And of course, the opportunists from among the Sūfîs, the Proggies and whoever else wanted to take their shots at Salafiyyah jumped (and continue to jump) at the chance like rabid dogs.

    The da’wah is far from dead, however, as this da’wah is the da’wah of the Haqq and Allah will protect it, preserve it, and purify it continually. And as cliché as it sounds, with every fitnah that the da’wah faces comes purification and with this purification, the have’s are distinguished from the have not’s and the are’s are distinguished from the are not’s. Then when the fitnah ends, the da’wah moves on until the next fitnah comes.

    Although many of the annual national conferences have stopped (mostly due to 9/11 and either the inability or reluctance of many of the shuyūkh to travel to the West), various Salafî organisations are still active and making their contributions to the da’wah.

    Despite what one brother mentioned above, QSS has not disappeared. QSS NYC is still very active holding their weekly live audio lecture broadcasts via They also have educational seminars and online intensive courses available for whoever wishes to register for them. Abdulmonem Burkhes, the current QSS Chairman, has moved back to Toronto and is running the QSS Canada Masjid/Islamic Centre, with regular classes/halaqât on weekends and mini-conferences held every few months. The QSS website is kind of dead, but that has more to do with unresolved server issues than it does inactivity, and definitely not because QSS has disappeared. Once these server issues are resolved, a new site will be put up with new content, with Allah’s permission.

  69. assalaamu ‘alaikom wa rahmatullah,

    I have alot of discrepancies with the reasons you’ve given for the decline of the dawah. You gave way too much credit to TROID and failed to discuss the major role Spubs played in the whole fitna. You also did not give due consideration to how harmful 9/11 was for the dawah, especially for QSS as this is what single-handedly caused the conferences in the States to cease (not TROID).

    But besides the biases, inaccuracies, and the overall conjectural nature of much of your narrative, I have no reason to doubt your intentions in writing this. And I cannot describe how sad it made me to read this. But it reminded me of something a brother said to me about how this whole fitna was a test for us all, and reading this gives one a strong sense of how difficult a test it was for so many (i was not in the dawah when much of this was going on). But the dawah is not dead — it will never die. It only needs those with faith, knowledge, wisdom, diligence, and patience to continuously spread and revive it. And we should definately take important lessons from much of what has happened.

  70. Salam Alaikum Brother,

    Sorry I didn’t read everyone else’s comments yet, but bedtime is soon and I have to go to work tomorrow.

    Brother, you said almost everything I had been feeling for 7-8 years now. You really almost brought some tears to my eyes because there were some issues I had abstractly felt but never wrote down and put into words. A lot of what you described, to some extent, contributes to the depression I’ve had for a long time now. If you could get with me on-line I’d appreciate it, just to have a like minded person on my buddy list — ’cause Allah knows there’s not too many in my city (who will admit it, anyway).

    Thanks for bringing some intelligent discourse into the community. Will be back tomorrow to check out everyone’s comments.

  71. Assalamu Alaikum Ya Umar,

    Akhi, I really don’t know what to say. While I was reading it I really wanted to cry. Because I am afraid of the same thing happening in Trinidad and Tobago. The da’wah is pretty young in this country and Alhamdu Lillah people are accepting it and I have a feeling that many more will accept it inshallah ta’ala.

    Thing is I have a few comments:

    1) Many use the scholars and students of knowledge as a pivot in order to make Tazkeeyah for their organizations. I remember distinctly that a few years ago I gave brothers the number of an American brother in Yemen in order to find ways how to get there but this is what happened:

    i) They used the brother’s number to stir up Fitnah which caused the Imam to step down.

    ii) Wala and Baraa is put on the lines on who is with the former Imam and who is not

    iii) Now the former Imam has a bad name because of lies, half truths and innuendoes.

    iv) And the sad and most disgusting part is that one man has not gone to Yemen yet!!!

    It has reached a point that even a brother is afraid to start memorizing 40 Nawawi with me because he fears being called a person of innovation. Allahu Musta’aan.

    And as Shaikh Waseyullah said clearly and after reading this it became like the Sun in the middle of the day. Many people have hypocricy in their hearts and want to promote themselves rather than the da’wah.

    I mean in Trinidad the matters are clear. Because the people who are refuted are the Sufis, Tableegh, Ikhwanis, and some who have openly declared their dislike for the Salafi da’wah and the scholars of Hadeeth. Alhamdu lillah it hasn’t reached the level where brothers have started to call each other innovators (except in one circle). And really and truly no one cares about that circle because many of them don’t even know the basics of Tawheed.

    My e-mail is I would like you to advise me because I myself call toward Salafeeyah and travel wide distances in the country to call to it. But I am also a University student majoring in History. But Akhii your experience would be quite valuable to me so that I would not know which errors to fall into.

    Jazakallahu Khairan.

  72. Interesting read, although it may be dangerous to the new or recovering Muslims that are unstable and shaky grounds. Perhaps it would be pertinent to do a follow-up series on what some practical solutions may be so as to provide some hope for those who have been “burned out.”

    It is very easy for someone to read this series and subsequent comments and, in utter digust at the reality behind the illusion, abandon all hope and cut off the strings they are clinging onto in their desperate efforts to continue to adhere to the Saafi da’wah not to mention islam in general. Therefore, some hope has to be provided, and there is no doubt that there is hope as the future is for Islam. It will keep growing as the Prophet sallAllaahu alayhi wa sallam informed us, however don’t forget that in another hadeeth he also told us that during the last days we – the Muslims – would be many but like the scum of the ocean. So we should not use these real-life examples, although sad, as a catalyst for us to abandon our faith and our principles.

    In the same sense that we tell non-Muslims that they should look at Islam and not Muslims if they want to convert, then we say the Muslims should look at Salafi Da’wah and not at the Salafis when they want to adhere to the correct form of Islam. In both cases, the adherents are humans and thus not perfect, so no doubt they will fall into error.

    So as sad as the state of the salafis in the US is today and as blameworthy as some individuals amongst their ranks are for causing this demise or backdrop, we should not put the blame on the ideologies, principles and methodology of this blessed call, which is in fact the true Islam, as explained to us by the bonafide scholars and not ignorant laymen or uneducated/inexperienced propagators.

    That being said, the salafi da’wah – as it is practically implemented in the US – is not dead. I believe it is evolving and has gone through some of the stages you mentioned. However, nowadays we are in the “going back to the basics” stage where fundamental issues are again being discussed and knowledge is being incited more and more. This new phase is ongoign with another current phase which is the “hijrah phase” where many salafis who had it and were fed up with the way things ended moved overseas – to study, to work, etc. This requires an entirely different devoted topic in itself as this will too have its repurcussions since many, and I mean many people are going overseas with practically no financial capability and are setting themselves and their chidlren up for a fall.

    The worst thing out of all of this is the aspect of the children and what kind of future generation we are producing. What will become of our children – those who were raised by a single parent, those who come from disfunctional families, those who make hijrah and grow up amongst racist arabs and the like, those who grow up with no secular education that will enable them to compete for a decent livelihood in the future, those who will most likely be rushed into marriage at an early age due to their parents financial situation and will most likely end up miserable, those who were cultivated to not deal with non-Muslims on a practical daily level which will in turn hurt them socially when trying to integrate into society and the job market, etc. I fear for our children and what future awaits them….

  73. Bismillah,
    Jazaka Allahu Khaira for you beneficial series. Having been through the Salafi scene for years, you are point on with most of what you wrote. Most of the brothers and sisters commenting here are still affiliated with the Da’wah in some way or another, however I am no longer a Salafi, so please consider what I am going to say.

    Firstly, most of those that went through the Fitnah that went on and choose to remain Salafi have shifted in their views to what is called the Sahwah understanding. In Arabic, they are called Sahwis (although they don’t take that name for themselves, much as the ”Super Salafis” don’t call themselves ”Madkhalis”–even though that is what they are.

    Secondly, in the early and mid nineties, all of the Salafi Du’at were on one platform and drawn together–this includes Shaikh Ali al-Tamimi, Zarabozo, Bilal Philips, Dawud Adib, Adly, Abu Usamah, Abu Muslimah, and others. It is no secret that Shaikh Ali was from the beginning, affiliated with Shaikhs such as Salman al-Awdah, Safar al-Hawali, Nasir Umar, etc. When the Fitnah occurred in Saudia, and many of these Shaikhs were either arrested, or subject to a massive smear campaign, Shaikh Ali was supportive of them, whereas, Dawud Adib and others stuck with those that were opposed to them. This is why we notice the split around 1996 when Shaikh Ali gave his talk; “Advice to the Salafis of the U.K.”.

    Before that, they were all one big happy Salafi family, and those among us we almost completely in the dark about the realities of what was really going on in Saudia-the things that really set this fitnah into motion. The same here goes for Ustadh Jamal Zarabozo, whose community in Boulder were largely Saudis who were affiliated with the Sahwah movement in Saudia.

    Now what occurred in America in the mid to late nineties is exactly what happened elsewhere in the Muslim world among Salafis of the ”Madkhali” persuasion–they consumed themselves after having consumed scholars that were sympathetic or supportive of Shaikh Salman and Safar.

    Thirdly, I believe a major reason for the self destruction of the Madkhalis in America is because of the internal problems that it was plagued with. We all have our failings and issues, but it was not uncommon to find serious social problems and outright corruption among the Madkhalis, more so than what was found among the more moderate Salafis like Shaikh Ali. Among the Madkhalis, we have Imams and Du’at with four wives, taking on a fifth (while this fifth ”wife” is still married to someone else)–this actually happened as I was a part of the inner circle that persuaded him to step down as Imam. We have other Du’at becoming too well known for marrying and divorcing sisters for any small thing–and we are talking the heads of these Du’at in the U.S. We have the case of one of them that is now one of the most active Du’ats bragging while overseas that he slept with over 300 women before Islam, saying; ”I am a lover and not a fighter”. The same Da’i also gets caught in a hotel room with a group of sisters claiming that he was just ”kickin it”.

    Some of these Du’at were even responsible for raising thousands of dollars in Saudia for their Masjid projects, only to take the money and use it for themselves. When one Salafi brother confronted him about it, he went on a smear campaign about how he is a Qutubi/Hizbi/Sururi.

    A lot of this stuff was kept from the common Salafi brother back then, as I know my community was not aware in general. The thing that nipped it in the bud for me was when I saw that those Salafis that were maligned so much like Shaikh Ali and Ustadh Jamal were so far removed from such scandals in their own personal life. After the ”advice to the Salafis of the U.K.” came out, I was to learn that some of the Super Salafis went so low as to cook up a story accusing Shaikh Ali’s wife of adultery.

    When I left the Madkhali crowd (or being forced to leave because of my refusal to have anything to do with their games), I had the chance to spend a great deal of time with the moderate Salafi brothers and see a much better example than that which was being preached to us in the hundreds of tapes and lectures that increasingly became nothing more that gossip sessions.

    I don’t particularly believe that the Salafis, as a broad group are no longer on the scene in America. The way I see it, the Madkhalis simply consumed themselves after having gotten full off of the flesh of others.

    When I was overseas studying with the ”Salafi” Shuyukh”, I was ostracized very quickly by these ignoramuses with their Daffah Thawbs, Timberlands, shades, and carhart jackets , and used to say that it will only be a matter of time before all of these rabid individuals consume themselves. That is indeed what happened.

    What occurred in the U.S. has also taken place in other parts of the world. The Madkhalis split up into numerous sub sects, each one choking on the flesh of the other. You had:

    -The Madkhalis who were loyal to Rabi’ al-Madkhali in both good and bad who took his words regarding Abul Hasan al-Misri al-Ma’ribi as the gospel
    -Those who more balanced (if that word can be used here for this group) and took what Rabi’ said with a grain of salt.

    Then the Madkhalis split into other factions, such as:
    -Those who would later be described as ”Haddadiyun” from the like of Falih al-Harbi (a government informer who as of late has described Rabi” and al-Albani with Irja and has warmed up to the Takfiris (the same ones he made Takfir of only a year or two before))
    -Those who came out with this concept of ”clear salafi” and ”not clear salafi”
    -Those who opposed that.

    And so on and so on.

    Now bear in mind that for the most part, all of these people agree with each other in various other points-including Abul Hasan al-Misri, who is without doubt a Madkhali in his general understanding of things (although as of late he has been moving closer with other groups and working with them for the common good). All of them were opposed to the Scholars that Shaikh Ali al-Tamimi respected and took from.

    Now, it is safe to say that the Madkhalis in America are irrelevant to the Da”wah scene as of now. Most people have moved on, and those that haven’t are very much marginalized in the greater ”Islamic scene”.

    Before mixing with these Madkhalis, I never had any hatred for a Muslim in my heart. After being subject to their smear campaign like many others, I was never the same. Those Madkhali Du’at that I spent time with and even studied with overseas are vile people (and I say this without any reservation). I saw in their behavior that they did not want good for other people, they only wanted to boost their own egos in the name of Salafiyah.

    Years have passed, and many if not most of us have moved on to more productive things in both our Din and Dunya, yet the great number of those Du’at are still around, wallowing in what they have built for themselves with the honor and integrity of other Muslims.

  74. I learned from and was around people who were even more laid back and mainstream ‘salafi’ (they did not LABEL themselves that AT ALL) then Ali Tamimi. There was a time when I got into this qss thing a bit thinking wait why don’t we go to their conferences. Then it was explained to me that these people are extreme. And I couldnt understand it cuz on the face of it, it was all the same fiqhi teaching. Then as i gained more knowledge, and I understood manners of doing things and etc, I myself then saw the extremism of these ‘refutation’ and these ‘nitpicking’ over minute things which is not the way of the sunnah because if you do that to anybody, you will not have one ‘perfect’ Muslim left. Everyone, sheikh bin baz, albani, uthaymeen (to name the ones these people literally worshipped) has made mistakes. To say otherwise would be to say they are infallible which no regular human is.

    Alhamdulillah that i knew in an abstract sense that this all went on and that Allah made it easy for me to stay away from this.

    I believe some of the same groups were the ones putting down Sheikh M Shareef, and Sheikh Salah.

    Anyhow, on the AlMaghrib point, I don’t think you can transport Sheikh Waliullah’s example to now. He used means that worked at this time. M Shareef is using means that are proving to be very successful in his time. I believe its because he’s understood the money-psychology most of us have. When we want a real degree, we tend to put some value in it based on how much we pay for it. And we are committed to it.

    I have been on the side of organizing various dawah things and rarely have I seen the kind of commitment that AlMaghrib students show, and it is due to the professional environment created that these people can RELATE To. For a lot of people, $165 is not a big deal. And there is nothing wrong with catering to the upper class, EVEN though I don’t state that that is what is being done. If we don’t have a problem with people catering to the poor, (as we perceive it), then why are we criticizing someone catering to those who can pay the fees. Are the rich less worthy of knowledge?

    Do we expect da’ees to always be suffering and hand to mouth and THEN we will think they are sincere??? Does this want to make YOU a da’ee? So that your wife can nag and complain at you everyday? Please get realistic.

    Also, simply because AlMaghrib generates a lot of money(which I don’t know that it does but for the sake of argument Im assuming), why do you assume that the i nstructors are somehow making a wrongful use of it. AbuBakr was the first man to come to Islam a nd he was mad wealthy and we all know his standing in Islam. Uthman was also mad wealthy and we also know his standing in Islam.

    We don’t want to be biased against the poor OR THE RICH. It doesn’t make the bias ‘OK’ if its against the rich. Believe me, in this country, it is possible to make $165 in a few months in order to attend an AlMaghrib class, which I dare say does teach a good solid amount of ‘how-do-i-understand-the point of x and y in islam and how i apply it’.

    I don’t see people complaining about on-line correspondence universities or complaining about university fees for their masters degrees. Why is that?

  75. Have you also thought about the kind of silent message that goes out to a MAJORITY of people with the western money-psychology..that ‘hey i can learn Islam for free’ but for a masters degree, i gota pay chunks of money.

    Do you know how alot of people think of things in the west that are ‘free’? The thought that comes to mind is that perhaps its not that valueable.

    Additionally, brother M Shareef gave dawah through Darussalam for many years I believe but from the impression I have, AlMaghrib truly sets a standard in the commitment and numbers of students. So I think this is a great effort that has gone almost nationwide. So many college students didn’t have this before.

    HOnestly, when I was in school, AlMaghrib was something we looked forward to. And sometimes one or two of my other family members would attend as well. And it was a bit of money but it wasn’t a ‘huge’ deal cuz both my parents were working. So Almaghrib was catering to people like us and I was happy to have the opportunity to attend something like it.

    Does one HAVE to learn Islam from Almaghrib? NO. CAN one learn elsewhere? YES.
    And if someone was truly wanting to go only to ‘ALMAGHRIB’ and its the fees that are making them so vulnerable and annoyed, then they actually have deferred payments plans, but Im guessing for the person who sincerity wanted to attend and tried, they would already know that and this would not be news to them.

  76. I want to echo something, which has already likely been mentioned here. But, some of the comments were lengthy enough for people to skip (I have learned it the hard way– lengthy comments, no matter how relevant and good, are usually passed over).

    I remember asking Sh. Waleed a long, long time ago about the fitnah, and I remember his approximate answer, which really defined the “beginning of the end”. Many of the Madinaah /UmmulQura failed students brought Saudi politics with them to the West, and that was a big part of it. Here’s my simple analogy to rephrase the discussion: This Saudi fitnah was like a virus that was completely irrelevant, and foreign to this part of the world (the West). And like any new, vicious virus, there weren’t anti-bodies/antibiotics developed for it. So, it walloped the dawah, consuming it. The first signs of it were the Salman Awdah /Safar Hawali related Tawheed-ul- Hakimiyya fitnah… once this little viral strain was established… the whole body started feeling its affect in a few years. 9/11 only strengthened the environment for the virus to thrive. Now, a few years from the decimation, the virus continues to stick around in a few areas, but alhamdulillah, in some ways, these areas have been quarantined. It is up to those who have found the cure, who have rid themselves of the virus, to now strengthen what’s left, and support who’s left, and send medicine into the quarantined areas (all the time keeping a distance)… inshallah, the Quran, the Sunnah, and the way of the Salaf in its purity will cure any and all viruses.

    May Allah help us all.

  77. Yes, Al-Maghrib’s crew is paid. Although, it is no one’s business to know about this but since I think it may be beneficial for some, I know the sisters who work for almaghrib and walhamdullilah they all get paid. You cannot imagine how ‘halal’ of a job it is for a Muslim muhajibba sister! And I really admire Al-Maghrib for making it available for the sisters and brothers as well.

    Again, why is it that we don’t have any problem when it comes to paying for secular studies, but when it comes to Islam we raise an eyebrow !
    Think about it, what can be a better cause to pay our money for.

    In any case, I totally agree with the brother who said Muhammad Shareef understands the ‘money psychology’ and may Allah increase his knowledge and reward his efforts.

    Speaking from my personal experience, I forced my younger brother to take almaghrib class. He complained and whinned etc. about the money. And my younger brother is, perhaps, the most careless and irresponsible teenager I’ve ever met :)
    But Lo and behold, all four days of the class, he was ready to leave before me and every time he reminded me, “I paid for this class, I’ve to be there on time!’ :) And he even showed up for the exam (although he didn’t study)

    One reminder, when it comes to money…please be careful. This was one of the issues used in past by those who wanted to created ‘fitnah’ and they didn’t even spare someone like Uthman (radiAllahu anhu) from accusing of mishandling/abusing money!

  78. This is going to be quick, but I just wanted to make a special note between the “big time popular” Muslim scholars that are known in the US and if they are salafi or non-salafi and whether or not they are converts.

    Salafi scholars famous in the US
    – Sh. Yasir Qadhi – not a convert
    – Sh. Muhammad alShareef – not a convert
    – Sh. Bilal Philips – CONVERT
    – Sh. Yaser Birjas – not a convert
    – Sh. Waleed Basyouni – not a convert
    – Br. Kamal el Mekki – not a convert
    – Sh. ibn Baz – not a convert
    – Sh. Albani – not a convert
    – Sh. Zarabozo – CONVERT

    non-Salafi scholars famous in the US
    – Dr. Abdal Hakim Jackson – CONVERT
    – Imam Zaid Shakir – CONVERT
    – Sh. Hamza Yusuf – CONVERT
    – Sh. Nuh Ha Meem Keller – CONVERT
    – Sh. Abdal Hakim Murad – CONVERT
    – Sh. Husain Abdul Sattar – not a convert
    – Imam Abdul Malik – CONVERT
    – Imam Siraj Wahhaj – CONVERT
    – Malcolm X – CONVERT

    These are just of the big name Muslim scholars that Muslims in almost every masjid in the US will recognize and know.

  79. Asalaamualaekum! Everyone has already said it, but I will say it again because it’s merited, this was a very well written and heart felt series. I lived it too, Mashallah. Although, this is still your account. My love affair with the American salafi dawah movement was different because I’m not a convert and I’m not an immigrant. I’m not from the innercity nor was my family dysfunctional. We, my family, were involved with the dawah since the beginning. I’ve known some duaat all of my life. I was a young girl, sitting in lectures at a time when abu tasneem could only attract 15 – 20 people. I was a young girl when I went to Misr to study Arabic in the early 90’s. When I returned in my teens to my rinky dink, upper middle class ISNA ran community, I hit the road and went to Jersey because that was where “the dawah” was.

    All of the sisters in my circle of friends were much like myself. We were indigenous American born and raised Muslims from third and forth generations (okay, not all, some of us had immigrant grandparents). Our parents worked in corporate America and we literally had white pinket fences. Yet, we had zeal for Islam. We lived and dreamt about this deen and wanted to be apart of helping to purify and establish it in this land. When flyers were distrubuted for upcoming events, we ran to it. We took what we learned at them and our knowledge of Arabic and taught other youth. Alhamdulilah, it was good, we were “letting the sunnah go forth.”

    It was when the whole issue of mariage started being shoved at us, left and right, when I think I first started to worry. I was personally being hounded by several duaat and lesser than them privately in very unislamic ways! If I called the masjid to seek clarification on a Islamic issue, some how talk turned to “why you playing hard to get?” I overlooked it because well every community has a few bad apples, right?

    Alot of my friends fell in line and married salafi brothers who were heavily”involved” in the movement against their parents’ wishes and better judgement. My father wasn’t having that. Brothers, no matter who they were, were interrogated when they asked for my hand. Books and tapes were not suitable for mahr and he wasn’t playing. Some brothers started to warn me against my own father!?! How crazy was that. But it was Abu Muslimah who personally told me to steer clear of the brothers in New Jersery and especially Philly. He’d said, “Don’t get caught out there. Those brothers are not for you.” I took that to heart, Alhamdulilah and continued to keep my head in my books and my ears open even though I admit the lure of being the wife of some of the major duaat at the time was hard to resist. Soon my friends-my sisters, one by one were ending up divorced and pregnant after having endured treatment that could rival treatment at gitmo, a light went off. I kept thinking what was I really involved in? Who was really “on it” (as the super salafis say) and who was faking? I didn’t know, but I felt compelled to stick around to find out.

    Right then the real fitna came. Like myopic vision said, personality worship was an issue. But make no mistake about it, minhaj as well as hasad, were at the core. Certain duaat didn’t even want you to mention another dai’ee’s name in their presence, as if they possessed all of the deen themselves and you had to come through them to get it. Without a doubt, many people on the east coast, Salafi Pubs and the UK did not like what Abu Muslimah had going on in E.O., what Ali Tamimi had going in the D.C. metro area or what Muhammad Syed Adly was doing in the south. Was Abu Muslimah and his likes calling to themselves or were they trying to build up their communities and make them self reliant and encourage them to better their “whole” lives? I’ve always believed the latter to be true. Of course, Abu Muslimah had his mistakes, as did Ali Tamimi etc, but they were minor. Al Lajna nor any other kibaarul ulema warned against them. It was all trumped up and they were intentionally knocked off, one by one, by brothers who sought their positions. It was nothing short of a “ordered hit”, salafi style.

    I remember that summer when Abu Muslimah and Muhammad Syed Adly tried unsucessfully at having their weekend conference on uniting the Salafies and choosing an amir in New Jersey while at the same time over in Jamaica, Queens Abu Tasneem was giving his lecture to a packed audience-he was back in the spotlight after a hiatus out in the Midwest (that didn’t go very well). I admit, I attended both, I had to.

    That summer hizibiyyah was born. And I say born because during that era, many really only knew the terms that were commonly used by their beloved duaat and the few mashayik that they were aware of: sunnah, biddah, haram, halal, makroh, etc. Hizbiyyah and Hizbi became the new it words to use.

    Everywhere you went some salafi was using it. Some of what it created; the division, was mentioned by brother Umar. But how deep it went, blood sisters and brothers fighting, marriages (albeit already bad) ending, businesses- Islamic clothing stores, halal food places, Muslimah owned and operated beauty salons shut down. You won’t truly understand the hurt, unless you were there.

    One by one names were black listed and a serious distrust started to develop. People were really afraid to even open their mouths when I know many knew what was going on was wrong (read: myself included). I’ll never forget calling up one of my friends (who was one of the luckier ones still married to a dai’ee) and she said she waiting on word to come down on Abu Usamah?!? Was Allah giving out wahy again and the ummah in totality was unaware of it? It didn’t make sense. When I hung up the phone, I cried like I’d been just told I was terminally ill. It felt like it. That was the end, I knew it and I hadn’t even made it out of my teens. Again, I questioned what was I really involved in? Who was really on it, and the “it” to clarify was never people. It was the Qur’an and aunthentic Sunnah. Day after day, it became more clear, the “it” was never all of “it”, but instead just a empty fragment resembling it.

    I kept thinking where did it go wrong? Hadn’t we united upon turning away from the blind following that our parents and grandparents were upon? Hand’t we put into memory enough statements from the Qur’an, sunnah and from the salaf to know that “refutation is be left to the scholars and that a believer doesn’t abandon a believer on the account of a major or minor sin he has committed”. Where was the implemtation?There was none. It was all just smoke and mirrors.

    Like myopic vision stated her experience, I had the displeasure of witnessing many sisters, especially those who didn’t have any Muslim family at all and lived in the inner-city, take off their clothing and jump back into their former lives. One sister who I had befriended in Philly called me and said she was giving up?? HUH? Giving up what? Islam? How was that I remember saying to her. Hadn’t she and I sat and studied Qur’an together and prayed together, fasted together and attended lectures together. Her husband was taking yet another wife he met on the streets (he already had two that he couldn’t afford) and no brother there cared enough to speak to him on it. She was broke. Her 4 boys were stressing her out. She was depressed, on the verge of a breakdown. She said she stilled loved Allah, but needed a break. From what I’ve been told that break took to her straight to the club, wa iyadhu billah.

    My burnout was much different. I simply separated and went back to my surburban neighborhood and grudingly started attending jumu’ah at the ISNA ran Islamic Center. Alhamdulilah, that I had the family support to do that, many didn’t.

    It had been hard to go back home because the Salafies had such a negative reputation. I too felt like I had been in the dark, in another world. When had that happened? Wallahi, I never encountered harsh treatment amongst the Salafies. Like the brother Umar Lee said, when I traveled to different communities sisters would treat me as they did family. It was always beautiful and I felt loved. Then again, I was on the inside. When I heard about the encourters Muslims had with other Salafies, I was horrified and ashamed. I understood why I was treated differently, though it hurt. The few sisters who I had made it back home with, again we had to stick together but this time for different. Slowly we picked up the pieces of our lives and integrated back into the real world. And it was then that I realized how foolish I was ever thinking so little of my own community. It was nothing like what I had been apart of in the good ways, but then again it was nothing like I had be apart of in the bad ways either.

    Alhamdulilah, I’m now married and living in the Middle East to an Arab who would say, Abu Usamah, who? If you asked him about him. I know he will never understand that period of my life… and in a way, that saddens me because it shaped who I am today. But brother Umar, know that what we lived through was always meant to die. Indeed, truth always prevails over falsehood.

    I dont know about texas dawah or al maghrib, but I like Muhammad Al Shareef. Alhamdulilah, I think he is on to something, just like Abu Muslimah, had been on to something. A large part of the falsehood and envy that festered in the ranks of the western Salafies, male and female, was directly connected to the fact that many were largely uneducated, came from broken homes, and had entangled in their characters and their mannerisms the ways of juhal disbelievers so severely that they just couldn’t shake it.

    In closing, I will relate a post I seen on the internet in which two neo salafi sisters were dialoging. The one sister said to the other, “I want to give the Salafi dawah to some of the Muslims on my job. But everyone keeps telling me that they’re Sunni? How can I explain to them that’s not correct?”

    …salam wal afeeya to them.

    If there is anyone that has any doubt that the hizb known as salafi dawah in America has fallen, go take a look inside of the masajid that are still hanging on by a few threads. Go speak to them. Look at the type of people who are there and who are being recuited. Look at their women and their conditions, look at their babies because you probably won’t even find any born Muslims in their early 20’s still involved in great numbers as they were in the past. Ask them to recite something from the Qur’an and see how that goes. Ask basic aqeedah questions and see if you don’t get the same recycled nonesense that any one can google up from their sites instead of real adilaa. And yet these very same people can talk to you till your ears bleed about who isn’t salafi or why the overhead abaya is correct and the jilbab isn’t. If that doesn’t alarm you to the truth of its failed state, it may be because you are still one of them.

    As for ad dawatus salafiya, otherwise known as Islam, well, it’s alive and well all over the earth, Alhamdulilah.

  80. SubhanAllah. I knew it would take me a while to get through all these comments. So much hurt…so much shattered hope.

    It’s almost like a de-programming of sorts. There needs to be a Salafi helpline, recovery, or some kind of connecter to help sort out all of this aftermath of destruction.

    Time heals, yes, but how many bridges were burned that cannot be repaired?

  81. ASA:

    While I think your Salafi dawah critic is pretty much on point. Your 1st paragraph sounded like it was thrown in there for sensitive Arabs and Whites and to outright discredit any or all books that came out during that time period as wacky and un-academic . Perhaps, it was meant to be sarcastic or maybe you didn’t read the “Isis Papers” but it certainly did not deal with any 25th century level b.s. civilization underground, it was a series of articles & thoughts that pretty much dealt with racism, the black family and such.

    I digress

    When I 1st converted I attended Masjid Muhammed and it didn’t take long for others to tell me that my deen was deviant and so I had a very BRIEF moment with the QSS camp which I quickly snapped out of one day when a situation went down at the Islamic Center here in DC.

    I agree with most of the comentary thus far. This happens to every group it seems on various levels. The IWD community had some of the same issues but never as extreme as what you described and what I witnessed with my own eyes with the Jamatul Qauwi crew. No one was shouted out as deviant, we didn’t have to make an oath to the emperor (although at times one felt like they had to support various programs under IWD leadership and only those in strong support of IWD could get office posts). No one had their name posted on a Masjid for any reason and no one ever called for the ummah to boycott or shun people. Of course, you would get and give salaams and marry whom you wanted. You just wouldn’t become Imam. Finally, there were never any khutbas on who was “on it” or “off it” and they still maintain a 12 step program for drug addicts.

    However, things aren’t a utopia at most of the masjids under his leadership which is one of the reasons why he stepped down. Most are run like dictatorships, which are run like privately own companies and not something which belongs to the community. Masjids refuse to have elections and strong arm anyone who presses for new leadership. Outside of ATL, DC, Chicago, & TENN, it seems like the youth program is a joke. However, the Syrian mahab programs which IWD started worked as proof of all the AA converts who have degrees/ certificate in classical Quranic arabic and Islamic Jurisprudence and are much more knowledgeable than many Imams who claim to be under the IWD banner. This has left a turf war which is building with the college educated and Syrian program youth united against the “old guard” who refuse to take from young people and hold tightly to the old days as if everything was rosy and full of bliss.

    What people don’t seem to understand is while we take and contemplate the past our time is NOW and we must live in a way that reflects what is happening now. Everything in the past can’t be applied now and it wasn’t meant to be. Which is why now is now and the past is where it belongs the past. We have to write our own chapter and draw our own lines in the sand. We are not computers and can’t be feed a binary code of orders and move about the world in a state of “grayness”. We will miss and are missing half the show because of this attitude, this outright fear we have to use critical thinking which made most of us convert in the 1st place.

    I worked with Bro Ismiel at MAS for some time. Did what I could for his wife and kids and stood out in the cold with her every Friday in front of the justice department during his trail. I also attended some of their (paintball crews trails) and while I think some of their actions were truly naive and silly. I don’t think they deserve what’s happened to them. We would have nice debates in the office about women and if they should cover two eyes or one, enough “in which to see the way” is the freestyle translation in Saudi Qurans he took from. We would never have ill will at the end of these debates which seem silly now considering his plight and the plight of his family. May Allah SWT increase him with wisdom and make this time easy on him and all connected to him.

    I don’t know how I should feel about Bro Ali. I.. well I think I will just leave it alone. May Allah SWT magnify everyone Iman.

  82. So it seems the main justification for earning over a mill gross a year for teaching Islam are:

    “They understand the money culture of the North America and due to this money centered mindset people will take a class they pay for more seriously.”

    There is probably no money-centric mindset more prevalent in any part of the world other than Saudi Arabia. It is a country where you would be extremely hard pressed to find a person of low income other than the labor class immigrants. Yet, in just about every major Masjid in every major city some of the greatest scholars, scholars who Al-Maghrib probably view as their teachers, teach regularly from Fajr until Maghrib DAILY. The attendance is so overwhelming that often times you can’t find a place to sit in the Masjid.

    How much do they charge? Nothing.

    And you know those low income labor class immigrants I just mentioned? They’re right there in the Masjid crammed shoulder to shoulder with the Saudi who has so much money he doens’t know what to do with it.

    This excuse is like “I understand the pop culture of the USA so let’s have a rock concert for the sake of Allah”. That would generate an even larger attendance and people would probably take it even more seriously.

    The bottom line is that you should be a professional who earns their income from a professional career and teaches Islam purely for the sake of Allah. All the great scholars of Islamic history had their own careers and businesses from which they earned their income. NONE of them made a business out of teaching Islam. Al-Albani (rA) was a watch maker for God’s sake.

    I’m just not going to push this issue anymore because those who are religiously zealous in defending Al-Maghrib won’t change their minds. I just wish they would advise those in their organizations to DROP THEIR FEES. $165 for 2 days is just inexcusable and ridiculously apathetic towards those of lower income. Don’t tell me “Oh we accept petitions for free admission from those who can’t afford it.” Do you know how demeaning and insulting that is? Seldom will a man of pride do such a thing and not be humiliated before his family.

    There are too many reasons why this is unjust, but these are the last pennies of my few cents.

  83. I do not think it would be out of line for the al Maghrib to offer scholarships to those brothers and sisters who cannot afford the classes.

    I have no issue with charging for classes to those who can afford it, but do not let the cost keep those who truly cannot afford the cost keep them from attending.

    Something should be done to address this issue. Not all of those who cannot afford the classes are shifty, unemployed, section 8 types.

    Some people, like myself, struggle and work 60-70 hours a week so I can afford to allow my wife to stay at home with my babies, and do not live the high life.

    Should I be excluded from learning because I cannot afford, in some cases, hundreds of dollars for classes? Do I not have the same right to learn as others?

    This institute, and others like it, need to offer a certain amount of scholarships for these classes. The number of such scholarships should be based on the number of paying attendees.

    If they refuse, maybe someone can give THEM a class on charity and it’s role in Islam.

  84. Umar has been warned against (LOL) for HIS view of what occured! How do you warn against the EYES of another. There are/were not Aqeedah/Minhaj points and even I saw no political motives. It was said: ” It should not be spread!” Okay, that is your opinion, and Umar has his. I never saw in the 10 posting any call anything. Just one affected brother speaking about how he felt. That is what a blog is all about. So warners/haters/convicted ones, just stop being a child about this. It is just some healthy venting.

    But like the sister above said; “go take a look inside of the masajid that are still hanging on by a few threads. Go speak to them. Look at the type of people who are there and who are being recuited. Look at their women and their conditions, look at their babies because you probably won’t even find any born Muslims in their early 20’s still involved in great numbers as they were in the past. Ask them to recite something from the Qur’an and see how that goes. Ask basic aqeedah questions and see if you don’t get the same recycled nonesense that any one can google up from their sites instead of real adilaa. And yet these very same people can talk to you till your ears bleed about who isn’t salafi or why the overhead abaya is correct and the jilbab isn’t. If that doesn’t alarm you to the truth of its failed state, it may be because you are still one of them”
    Please Brothers and Sisters lets start all over. Believe me it will take some time. Like a long time. Adhere to the Haqq and not the people.


  85. Quoted by Muslemah

    If there is anyone that has any doubt that the hizb known as salafi dawah in America has fallen, go take a look inside of the masajid that are still hanging on by a few threads. Go speak to them. Look at the type of people who are there and who are being recuited. Look at their women and their conditions, look at their babies because you probably won’t even find any born Muslims in their early 20’s still involved in great numbers as they were in the past. Ask them to recite something from the Qur’an and see how that goes. Ask basic aqeedah questions and see if you don’t get the same recycled nonesense that any one can google up from their sites instead of real adilaa. And yet these very same people can talk to you till your ears bleed about who isn’t salafi or why the overhead abaya is correct and the jilbab isn’t. If that doesn’t alarm you to the truth of its failed state, it may be because you are still one of them.
    You hit the nail on the head sister with some people who call themselves Salafi. Same happens in a certain community in Trinidad. Many of them cannot pray properly and don’t even know simple issues in Aqeedah but want to say who is on the Manhaj and off the Manhaj.

    The odd thing is that when you ask them for evidences they can’t give any at all. Basically making a disparaigement without any evidences whatsoever which conflicts with the Methodology of Ahlul Hadeeth. And I mean even if a person has mistakes but trying their best to practice then there is a Hadeeth which says that the religion is advice.

    As for Shaikh Rabee’ Ibn Hadee Al Madkhali. I don’t think any of the confusion that has happened to the west should be attributed to him. What has happened is that many of the people have used them for their own gains. So they give the Shaikhs a skewed story and they make a judgement upon it.
    And I have heard the lectures of the Shaikh and I have seen him. He is a person who has a lot of patience and is very reasonable and advises people for a long time before anything.

    And I would say that many Salafis in Trinidad are progressive. Mashallah many brothers have memorized some books. Some have memorized some Juz of the Qur’an also. And also we live in the real world and know that we have to get skills to work and provide for our families.

    The main thing is knowledge. A lot of these Salafis in America and Britain and even in Trinidad make judgements upon ignorance. And they make Baraa of their own brothers and sisters based upon nonesensical things.

    Alhamdu lillah in my classes I always allow some freedom. Like for example last week the Niqab issue came up and I said it was Fard. But I mean I am not going to call someone deviant because they don’t wear it.

    Or even other fiqh positions or other things which one may have different views (of course which do not contradict with the Manhaj). I mean that is allowed in Islam and it shouldn’t be a stimulus for allegiance and disassociation.

    Also I saw one major problem with the early Salafi da’wah in the states. The fact that the texts were not taught on a regular basis therefore knowledge of the Usuul of Salafeeyah were not propogated in the proper manner. At the same time though, when new information came to brothers about certain matters it would have been upon them to advise, advise, advise first and foremost. And be patient upon this admonition.

  86. br. hazari i think the debate about almaghrib is probably a tangent from the intention of these posts, but very quickly:

    a) there’s costs that need to be recouperated.
    b) scholarships and payment plans ARE offered. one need simply visit their website for more info.

    you can gross a lot of $$, but theres teacher salaries, travel, misc costs, employees, books, promo materials, etc etc.

    alhamdulillah i have been given the blessing to help organize almaghrib seminars in one of their cities and i can say with complete confidence that not a single person was turned away because of $$. if anything, the community members got together and helped create scholarship funds so that everyone was able to attend.

  87. I doubt bro. Hazeri has ever run a business. As was mentioned, there are expenses to running anything correctly. He reminds me of customers my husband hates to get who complain about prices which are below market yet they still don’t want to pay. People have no idea of what it costs to run a business or an organization

    Secondly charging is very important in this case because it weeds out the students who are not serious. People do not take free classes serious and often waste the teachers time.

    I am not some big supporteer of Al Maghrib, I know a little about it but I lean more toward traditional Islam, yet I support them charging for the classes, especially sense they make allowances for low income but even if they didn’t. If you really want to take the class, plan a year ahead and save the money. Its 165, not a grand.

  88. asaamu alikum a reply to Um abdullah, i think the issue is not making the class free, but make it a reasonable price for people who cant pay even 165, and or give scholarships to students who have financial difficulties.

    And Also, alhu alem about the expenses, but until recently, the rooms in my area at least that were used for the classes, were free through the MSA’s. There is no food given for free, or anything as a matter of fact. So the expenses are probably given to the teachers, and prob the websites and other programs they make. Wallahu Alem

    Also i disagree with saying people will not take the knowledge serioulsy. most ppl attracted to the almaghrib classes, are already the serious students. they would have taken it serioulsy even if it was for a dollar, bc those same ppl go after the knowledfge wherever it might be. the real challenge is bringing individuals who dont have the desire to learn.

    it might not be a totaly good idea to do it for free, but a reasonable price is better, that way, even when you promote it, you can use that as a promotional slogan…

    as for the post about the salafi dawah, some things were really true, and its sad to know it actually happened.

    Just like any other group i feel we focused too much on following individuals rather than following the Quran and Sunnah.

    we really have forgotten the true purpose of our life, and focused on the puny details that might lead us to hall, more than it leading us closer to Jannah.

    the bro didnt seem to mention the whole paltalk drama. I still remb when there would be zillion of salafi rooms, and most of the time the youth are leading them, doing as they wish in the name of salafia and the ulama.

    serioulsy ONLY Allah can get us out of the mess we put ourselves in, it just overwhelms me thinking about how many things need to be fixed..and it only confirms to me that only Allah can get us out..but of course we gotta do somethin as one…

    someone said a very wise saying “make duaa to Allah as if everything depended on him (which is the case, everything dpeends on him), and you take action, as if everything depended on YOU”

    Jazakum Allahu kheiran for the information..i just hope it doesnt cause more confusion, or hatered toward any group or individuals. May Allah guide us and protect us from the misguidance.

  89. They do allow allowances/scholarship for low income students. In fact, some of the qabeelas, who get more students, help out the other qabeelas where low income students are many and can’t afford to pay. I have specific examples, but I will refrain from using that inshaAllah. As I said, really it is not anyone’s business.

    In the end, da’wah money is being used for da’wah. What financial benefit Muhammad Shareef is getting out of it…nothing. Only if people knew his and his wife’s simple lifestyle…

  90. I have run a business, but are you really going to classify them as a business or are they a religious organisation?

    Is their mission solely education and da’wah, or is it for profit?

    I think there would be nothing wrong in wanting to see where the money that one gives to them goes.

    It is done for other organisations all of the time, where the money goes, how it is spent. The tranparency is actually a good thing. It owuld help dispell any myths that are obviously floating around there.

    Um Abdullah, $165 might not be a lot for you, but for others it is. I would not begin to presume that I can sit here and tell others how much money they have, they should have, or how they spend it.

    Free classes also allow those who do not have money to have access to education as well. I do not agree with you when you say that “People do not take free classes serious and often waste the teachers time.”

    A small minority might, but the overwhelming majority do not. I took classes at the Mahad here in Northern Virginia, that were basically free, yet the students I met there were often some of the most dedicated students I have ever run into.

    Besides, having attended a regular state university, that I had to pay for, I can tell you that simply paying for a class HARDLY means that you are going to take the class seriously. Anyone who has attended university and or collage can certainly attest to this fact.

    I would like to know where they money goes and I would also like to know how many seats are available for each session, and how many go unfilled? Every seat unfilled is one person loosing out on education.

    If their REAL mission is about education and the deen, these are questions they would want to answer themselves!

  91. A good point that’s been made in the comments, is that many of the people leading the fitan were the youth. Probably going from scholar to the other making scenes and causing fights and enjoying being part of a certain scholar’s group. Allahu A’laam.

    I think one solution lies in the way the scholars teach and raise their students. I remember a certain sheikh who mentioned that a certain scholar who raised his students to be bash other scholars and groups. Once the sheikh said something and one of his students got up and slapped him!
    The sheikh who mentioned this said this was the fault of the sheikh himself, who raised them upon such a manner.

  92. Someone mentioned that they think Shaykh Rabee is free from the fitnah that occured in the West, thus the term “Madkhalee” or “Madakhila” is not appropriate. Does this apply across the board to the scholars that the likes of SP/TROID refer to? Some of the well known du’aat and taalibul ilm told me that in Saudia, most people(including taalibul ilm who have studied in the Haram for years) do not refer to Shaykh Rabee. This has always been my gut feeling if that is the case, that the scholars are not responsible for what happened here but they only gave advice based upon what was conveyed to them.

    As for AlMaghrib instructors, it seems that the living scholars that they seem to refer to are some of the mashaykh that aren’t plugged in as much with SP/Troid like Abdul Muhsin Al-Abbaad(referred to in Fiqh of Da’wah by M. AlShareef) and Muhammad ibn Mukhtar Ash-Shanqeetee who is apparently ‘off the manhaj’.

    The connection to the ulemaa is what many brothers still make the big issue about, and even though most Salafee brothers I know won’t warn against them or call them hizbees, they don’t feel comfortable taking from them unless they at least refer to ulemaa alot in their talks. They’ll say that at least you’ll hear the likes of Abu Khadeejah and Abul Hasan Malik paying lip service to the scholars whether or not they have actual tazkiyah.

  93. I just about this while I was reading comments on Al Maghrib and their fees (which I don’t have a problem with)…The Masjid that I attend is offering FREE hifz classes for anyone who is interested. The only catch is that if you register for the class and miss a class without a valid reason, you have to pay for each class you miss. That’s a way of weeding out anyone not serious about learning…Maybe that approach can be used at other institutions as well.

  94. Heres what i found on Almagrib forums ,a post by Mohammed AlShareef

    Re: Why are Classes So Expensive???
    Jazakum Allahu Khayr for all the excellent responses.
    Here are my comments:

    1. The question itself is a loaded question. “Why are the classes sooooooooooo expensive?” is to preassume that $165 is expensive. Allahu ‘alam, the question should be reworded (before being answered) to be: “Are the AlMaghrib classes cheap or expensive? And according to who?”

    2. Free halaqahs and classes are everwhere and readily available. The key ingredient in the AlMaghrib pie that gives us the power to create high calibre classes is the tuition. If it wasn’t for the tuition, all our instructors (instead of doing class promos) would be doing fundraising dinners and re-inventing the wheel so that almost every Islamic organization is spinning.

    3. In fairness, the default is that knowledge should be handed out for free. I understand full well that the AlMaghrib tuition basis is not the ideal. I have contemplated why is it that if the classes were free they would be abandoned, but when tuition is attached to the class, people respect the class more. My conclusion is that this is the consequence of living in a material society in which value is attached to a dollar amount. If the AlMaghrib classes were $1650 per student, believe me our society would attach more presumed value to the information. That’s the consequence of a materialistic society. I envision AlMaghrib not needing to charge money in non-materialistic socieities, in sha Allah. Like Mexico.

    4. And in fairness, as what the sister mentioned, there are people who genuinely cannot afford the class, whatever the price. For those people there is a genuine (not so public) scholarship program. I remember growing up in Winnipeg, a didn’t have ten bucks to my name. Had AlMaghrib come to Winnipeg when i was in high school i probably could not have afforded it, genuinely. For people like that, we are genuinely working on helping them out so that the money issue does not hinder them from coming closer to their Lord through the knowledge of the Deen.

    In conclusion: AlMaghrib is not the end-all of Islamic educational institutions. If someone does not prefer our mode of education, i sincerely wish them the best in whichever institute, tuition free or otherwise. My only prayer for them is that Allah makes them sincere in their words and that they sincerely seek out that knowledge without excuses.

    As a wise person once said: “The Qur’an is open and free for everyone. Who is there that sits over it and memorizes it day and night?”

    May Allah ta’ala make our intentions sincere for Him alone. Ameen.

  95. Abu Sinan

    Trust me I am not wealthy, my husband sometimes works 80+ hours so that I can stay home with my children. We sacrifice and we live simply. I also know that people spend money on what is important to them. Most of the people who complain about the price, eat out at least once a month if not more, have cable tv, and generally spend money in ways that are more luxuries. If this class is important to you then save your money, besides the point is moot, they offer scholarships so what are people complaining about.

    I’m sorry but at $165 /student they are not making a lot of money, thats what I mean about people not understanding what it takes to run anything whether it be a business or a non-profit.

    Lastly in every one of those cities there are teachers who probably have dars for free or you can talk to them to set up lessons for yourself. People are acting like Al-Maghrib is the only way to attain Islamic knowledge.

  96. Thanks for the information from al-Maghrib, but I still think it would be best for ALL Islamic institutions that charge for their services to be transparent.

    If they could show, with numbers, that the materials and others costs amount to $165, it would be easier to understand.

    But if it turns out that the materials and costs associated with the services only equal to about $75, it would be hard to justify the rest.

    As to the idea that charging money means that people will take it more serious, I have already dealt with that and it is clear that this is NOT the case. People regularly pay great sums for classes, services and items that they either do not attend or throw away. We live in a disposable society.

    Besides, the idea that charging money for a class will somehow gain credibility for what is learned is nonsense as well. I worked for years hiring professional engineers and scientists and I can attest we sent many people packing because even though they spent $60,000 for an education at some place, we didnt recognise it. So $60,000 or $100,000 it wouldnt have mattered.

    Again, I would love to see an accounting of the money, and would also like to see how many seats go unfilled at these classes. If there are 100 seats available, but 25 go unfilled, I think that is haraam. How many of these 25 seats would be filled if the classes were not free, certainly, but more affordable?

    Why not even set up a waiting list for those honest brothers and sisters who cannot afford the classes. 30 minutes into the class let those on the list know how many seats there are open and let them be filled!

    That would be a true charity, again, of course, unless it is more about the money than spreading information.

    I have seen this stuff in the Christian world, people do these things and make very good money off of it.

    I knew one Muslim who made his money off of such things and paid for a 2003 Hummer with it, whilst some couldt partake because of lack of money.


    The Muslim community, as a whole in the USA, is really divided into two camps, American converts who on the whole come from less affluent backgrounds, and upper middle class to rich immigrants who want nothing to do with American converts, unless they are the Middle Class or rich white converts that seem to adopt one of the various immigrant identities as their own.

  97. I didn’t mean to bring the price issue – with regards to almaghrib – to imply that they are trying to be fat cats. I don’t believe that. I only mentioned it from the social aspect in that it is a barrier for many converts.

  98. Again, I have never taken an Almaghrib class, but I find it fascinating that so many people obsess over them. If you disagree with them don’t take their classes. If the people who take the classes aren’t complaining why is this an issue.

  99. I just wanted to emphasize the point that someone else made earlier:

    Almaghrib fees are waived for those brothers and sisters who can’t afford it. Just ask about it, and something will be worked out inshaAllah.

    It’s just not advertised because there are so many costs involved: flights, hotel stays, administrator salaries, etc. I know for a fact that almaghrib’s finances are not as good as many might think.

    Also, when comparing dawah efforts in this country to other countries, we have to keep in mind that many of the shuyukh (present and past) are/were supported either by the government or some other wealthy patron. Such a situation just doesn’t exist here.

    wa Allahu a’lam.

  100. Abu Sinan

    I love you for the sake of Allaah, but you are far off with these AlMaghrib comments, although I believe your heart is in the right place.

    First you make up a charge that AlMaghrib does not offer scholarships. Many people inform you that they do, but rather than apologizing for not knowing and still speaking you go on making other charges.

    We all agree that the goal is to have people attend the classes. AlMaghrib believes that the way they do it is they best way to ensure that. You believe there are better ways to do it. The facts seem to be on AlMaghrib’s side. They have taught thousands of students around the country. There are free halaqas all over the country and I have attended many and I hope there will be more, but hardly any of these are full and they usually die out after some time.

    The question is whether the classes are worth the amount charged. They are, so the people who can afford that amount should pay it. For those who cannot, there should be scholarships. There are. What is the issue? One could take AlMaghrib classes for years and probably not pay what you pay in rent every month — so again, what is the issue?

    If people still have a problem with AlMaghrib, then don’t attend. It is not the be all and end all. I encourage all of those quick to comment to start an Islamic learning institution that doesn’t charge and compete with AlMaghrib to do good. May Allaah (swt) bless all our efforts.

    Allaah knows best.

    There is a point that Umar mentioned and that I agreed with that AlMaghrib is not necessarily the best approach for everyone. Alhamdulillaah we need other approaches as well, so let’s develop them — I agree strongly that this general criticism from people who don’t know what they are talking about is not consistent with Islamic adab nor will it contribute to the success of the ummah.

    Allaah knows best.

  101. Fitnah—we all have heard this word and continue to hear it, but how many times do we really think it will touch our lives too!

    Fitnah of Salafi split, fitnah of TROID/SPubs…fitnah of accusations, backbiting…fitnah of mid-90s among ‘Salaafis’! Yes, it broke families, broke communities, broke the brotherhood, broke our hearts…So what do we do now?

    Am I about to offer a solution? NO, I can’t. But here is what I have to say:

    Umar (radiAllahu anhu) was the ‘door’ blocking the fitnah from entering our religion.

    (Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 56 :: Hadith 786)
    Once ‘Umar bin Al-Khattab said, said, “Who amongst you remembers the
    statement of Allah’s Apostle regarding the afflictions?” Hudhaifa replied, “I
    remember what he said exactly.” ‘Umar said. “Tell (us), you are really a daring
    man!” Hudhaifa said, “Allah’s Apostle said, ‘A man’s afflictions (i.e. wrong
    deeds) concerning his relation to his family, his property and his neighbors
    are expiated by his prayers, giving in charity and enjoining what is good and
    forbidding what is evil.’ ” ‘Umar said, “I don’t mean these afflictions but the
    afflictions that will be heaving up and down like waves of the sea.” Hudhaifa
    replied, “O chief of the believers! You need not fear those (afflictions) as
    there is a closed door between you and them.” ‘Umar asked, “Will that door be
    opened or broken?” Hudhaifa replied, “No, it will be broken.” ‘Umar said, “Then
    it is very likely that the door will not be closed again.” Later on the people
    asked Hudhaifa, “Did ‘Umar know what that door meant?”
    He said. “Yes, ‘Umar knew it as everyone knows that there will be night before
    the tomorrow morning. I narrated to ‘Umar an authentic narration, not lies.” We
    dared not ask Hudhaifa; therefore we requested Masruq who asked him, “What does
    the door stand for?” He said, “Umar.”

    Remember, Umar didn’t die a natural death (that is why the door was not ‘opened’ rather broken—because he was martyred). So with that door broken, fitnah had its free passage to enter our religion and it hasn’t ceased to enter our religion since Umar’s death.

    Our Ummah has witnessed fitnah after fitnah and with every ‘fitnah’ we think nothing worse can happen next. We think what happened among ‘salafis’ was a very big fitnah. Indeed it was, there is no doubt about that.

    But dare I say, was it even close to being as painful as what happened to Uthman (ra)? When he, the dear companion of our beloved prophet, can be accused of giving ‘personal’ favors to governors, can be accused of ‘misusing’ public money, can have his personal mistakes brought out to public eye (although he was clearly forgiven by Allah (swt) during Prophet’s life), then who else can be saved from these accusations/backbiting?! When people can ‘justify’ killing Uthman (ra) KNOWING that he had been given the glad tiding of Paradise in his lifetime, then who can be spared from suspicion, jealousy and hatred.

    That community of Medina, which was built by no other but our own beloved Prophet Muhammad (saw) was falling apart, I’m sure it must have broken many hearts, must have caused pain/hurt, must have overflowed many eyes with tears.

    Those who lived to witness that fitnah, were there too when Medina community was built during Prophet’s life, they had felt the love, the brotherhood (they made the brotherhood) but then when the ‘fitnah’ came, it didn’t even spare the best community of Muslims that ever existed!

    Doesn’t Allah says in Qur’an:
    “And fear the Fitnah (affliction and trial, etc.) which affects not in particular (only) those of you who do wrong (but it may afflict the good people too), and know that Allâh is Severe in punishment.” (8:25)

    When fitnah comes, it fogs everyone’s sight, makes it difficult to see, hard to perceive.

    Why am I mentioning this? To remind myself first and then everyone else, that what Br. Umar Lee described, was not the first fitnah of its nature neither the worst. (And Allah knows best)

    We find examples of worse fitnah in the past, and those examples are there for us to take lessons from. Even in the fitnah of Uthman (ra), and then Ali (ra) we have lessons to learn and contemplate. We can apply those in our lives and deal with our fitnah. It will only make it easier for us and beneficial for us, so we don’t fall into the same errors.

    The beauty of all this is that we had been warned about ‘fotoon—fitnaS’ in a number of ahadeeth (saying of Muhammad sallallahu wasalam), and with the perfect light of Islam, we are not left misguided rather, we are told how to deal with ‘fitnah’. These are our tests and trials and we have to learn to deal with them. We must remember the promise of Allah,

    “Allâh burdens not a person beyond his scope.” (2:286)

    When Allah is promising us that He will NOT over burden us, then we must remember that every trial that we face, be it physical or financial or emotional, we HAVE the ability to face it that is why it has befallen us.

    Indeed, the pain and hurt of a broken-brotherhood, accusations, boycotting is far more severe then, perhaps, some physical/financial difficulties, but then again, aren’t we tested by the things that are more difficult for us to tolerate! If the test is not hard then it is not a test anymore.

    And during these test, we see our real selves, we judge our emaan, and make an effort to come close to Allah. It is that time when shaytaan tempts us, some of us overcome him (ar-rajeem) and some of us fall as his prey.

    Br. Umar, I hope and I pray that you can overcome the hurt you and many other Muslim brothers and sisters had to go through. I pray to Allah az-Zawjal that may He reward you for your patience, and others who faced this fitnah. I pray that those who made the mistakes, realize their mistakes and repent before it is too late. I also pray that may Allah guide and unite this Ummah upon Siraat-al-mustaqeem.

  102. al Irelandee,

    I dont see the issue with transparancy, do you? If they are spending the money they garner from such events properly, what is the issue with being open about it?

    As to the scholarships, even the response from the member of al Maghrib himself stated that “For those people there is a genuine (not so public) scholarship program.”

    Why not make it public? Why keep it quiet? How is it genuine if you dont do what you can to make people aware of it?

    When I lived overseas, in similar type circumstances, such a service was always advertised along with the event itself. What use is a scholarship if almost no one knows about it? Why not advertise it, unless of course, it was added, almost as an after the fact, rather than a genuine attempt to allow others to benefit?

    Given the amount of corruption the Muslim world, excuse me for wanting to know exactly WHERE the money goes that is taken in.

    Like I said previously, people just like this, in the USA and abroad, have used such programs to enrich themselves. So I think in the public interest all finances of such groups should be open to the general public.

    Again, what is the issue with that?

    I dont think I have a thing to apologise for. In Islam the rich are instructed NOT to hide their wealth specifically so that poor and the needy can know who to ask for help. If the institute is offering scholarships that are not well known about, then it seems they are going against this idea.

    The Muslim community in the USA, at times, is one of the most unIslamic societies that I have ever seen. I get sick of the racism, the ethnic exclusivism, and especially in the USA, of the rich immigrant Muslims who feel that they are better than anyone who doesnt come from where they do and do not have the type of money that they have.

    As you say there are free classes all over the USA, then one can buy the delux, grade AAA first class version.

    Excuse me for not liking that too much. I am glad the Prophet never charged a fee to attend any lessons he taught. If he did, Islam might well have floundered.

    So yeah, now we have the Rolls Royce of Islamic classes, like the Mercedes and Porsches sitting the mosque parking lot. The rest are stuck with the pieces of junk, that even you admit often just disappear.

    This, my friends, is the state of the Muslim community in the USA.

    My matra is, and always will be, like George Bernard Shaw, that Islam is the best religion, with the worst followers.

    God, please save the world for Islam, from the Muslims.


  103. assalaamu alaykum

    I married a wife from houston so I’ve seen firsthand what people are saying about Houston and how nice it is there. Certainly, the number of converts represented amongst the salafi ranks may not be as great as it was in say the Northeast, but I think Sh. Waleed is doing a great job of focusing on teaching people. As for the specific details of logistics in Houston for converts/immigrants, I can’t speak to that as I dont actually live there, but I do know a couple of african american brothers who are intimately involved in the salafi da’wah there. In spite of that, I can also say I have noticed that Houston is quite widespread and that may be a contributing factor as to why there maybe class discrepancies. Sh. Waleed, for example, is in the Clear Lake area which is not so convenient for most people. I’ve also been to masjid Sh. Isam Rajab of Arees Institute, and i noticed a good number of convert brothers there, but Sh. Isam is relatively new in Houston.

    As for TDC, I myself invited an African American brother I know (one who was involved in the Salafi Da’wah going way back to before the qss/iana split and got sick of them and left) to the recent TDC convention. He came and brought his wife and we had a good time together.

    Personally, from what I’ve seen of Sh. Waleed, if there were more converts wanting to get involved, he would be ready and happy to work with them and help them feel more involved.

  104. “When I lived overseas, in similar type circumstances, such a service was always advertised along with the event itself. What use is a scholarship if almost no one knows about it? Why not advertise it, unless of course, it was added, almost as an after the fact, rather than a genuine attempt to allow others to benefit?”

    I know nothing about Al Maghrib, so I went to the website and this is what they have under the FAQ:

    ‘Q: I can’t afford the seminar. Is there any type of financial assistance available?
    A: One of the strengths of AlMaghrib Institute’s program is that students make a financial commitment to the seminar. This benefits AlMaghrib Institute by keeping its program financially healthy and focused on education (not fundraising). In addition, the financial commitment to the seminar benefits the student by keeping them focused away from making excuses not to attend. The truth of life in the west is that we value that to which we have made a commitment.

    We understand, however, that not everyone is in the same circumstances with regard to financial means. Thus, financial assistance, including a payment plan, may be available for students. To enquire about these options, you may email’

    So it doesn’t seem to me as if they are hiding the fact that they offer financial assistance?

    “Given the amount of corruption the Muslim world, excuse me for wanting to know exactly WHERE the money goes that is taken in.”

    Why not email them and ask? Why not ask them if they have a way of showing where the funds go, because it is something you are concerned about? Maybe they already do, and maybe they have addressed some of your concerns.

    I know nothing about this organization excpet what I have just learned in five minutes on their website. But because we have problems with the actions of some Muslims and some Muslim organizations does not mean it is fair to label all of these organizations with the same “un-Islamic, corrupt” label without proof. That does not seem right to me.

  105. Another FAQ also addresses your concern that they charge for Islamic courses. It is a lengthy answer, but it shows that at least they have not just brushed those concerns aside and have given it some thought. Here is part of the answer:

    “At AlMaghrib Institute, we sincerely understand that there are people who genuinely cannot afford the seminar, whatever the price. It was never our intention to turn away someone if he or she genuinely wished to learn, but whose financial circumstances do not permit. For such parties, an AlMaghrib financial aid initiative was established. To enquire about this program, you may email

    In conclusion: We understand that Allah shall question us about this affordable tuition model and it is an enormous responsibility that AlMaghrib Institute is undertaking. If we were correct in this affordable tuition exception-to-the-rule model, then we ask Allah ta’ala to put even more barakah in our efforts. And if we were wrong, then we ask Allah ta’ala to not deny us the reward of those who attempted to seek the correct answer but were mistaken.”

  106. Just a few questions…

    -Why are we talking about AlMaghrib and their fees?
    -Why is it any of our business what AlMaghrib does with their money?
    -What does any of the above have to the with the fall of the Salafi Dawah?

    Let’s focus here!

  107. Wow…I’ve experienced ‘Salafi Burnout’ all over again trying to take in all of this. Just wanted to send a shout out to ‘Umar and say this was well written. Very balanced yet personal. Nice.

  108. As salaamu alaykum,
    I have’nt read the article yet but insha’allah I will. I have read some of the replies and it is definetly sad, some of the replies of the women, and the condition of the people in these communities.
    I have seen most of it first hand and its hard to grasp the reality sometimes. Me and my group of salafi’s where in in a salafi community, there were around 6 of us. We would travel to Newark or Philly to go to conferences, We would swap tapes, books ect, and we were pretty oblivious to what goes on, and if even when one or two of us did know it wasnt something beneficial.
    To me however there is good and bad in the salafi dawa. The good being, that Usually the people will follow the Qu’ran and Sunnah(Even if at times wrongly) and In general our group of salafi’s were close.
    The wrong has been said, Whats on the outside is not what is always on the inside. One might treat his friends the polar opposite that he treats his family, He might follow the sunnah outside but at home be a shaytan. A hypocrit, a liar and deciever, but only Allah knows.
    I have had a few close encounters, having to live with some salafi companions, and on another instance loaned a da’ee money for a ‘salafi project’.
    Well both resulted in what now stands as a large disappointment. Talk about disrespect? I lost alot of money, and am still waiting repayment after years. Its strange that one can talk the talk, but when it comes to the minor details which one should know without even having knowledge of it they fail entirely.
    Im definetly not knowledgable, but i respect the lives and importance of my fellow muslim no matter what manhaj they decide to follow. I understand what it means to have sabr, and mercy when it comes to my brothers and sisters in islam.
    Is this not what we should do? Should we not love eachother unconditionally, help eachother, and have hope in Allah that he will accept us into paradise?
    It should, but it sadly is’nt. Rather its a debate about ‘yeah i follow this scholar’ Meanwhile you never heard a statement of his, never read his books or anything , but will stand and bash, smash and trash anyone who says otherwise.
    I have been hurt many times over by people i would die protecting, I have been called names, and slandered, and told im wrong for no reason. But still i have hope that We as an Ummah can stand together if not in this life then together in paradise.

  109. as-Salâm ‘alaikum wa rahmatullah,

    I find this statement fairly amusing: “[A]fter i realized that the madkhalis (in all their flavors) were intellectually bankrupt … .”

    Good to know that’s what you think of some of your old friends, Salman. Btw, nice blog.

  110. Safia you are correct if someone wanted to learn Islamic knowledge but was worried about AlMaghrib’s fees they would have done what you did and found out the answers immediately.

    It is clear to all who have actually spent time AlMaghrib events and talked to the people involved that Abu Sinan is speaking without any knowledge of AlMaghrib at all.

    Abu Sinan, apparently you are not interested in learning Islamic knowledge or helping others to, but rather you are interested in convincing all of us how bad all the Muslims are and (I guess) how much better you are. My only further comment to you, ya Abu Sinan is to share the words of the Messenger of Allaah (saw):

    “When you hear a man say, ‘The people are ruined,’ he himself is the most ruined of them all.”

    Narrated by Imam Muslim in his Saheeh.

  111. Shattered stated:

    “Just a few questions…
    -Why are we talking about AlMaghrib and their fees?
    -Why is it any of our business what AlMaghrib does with their money?
    -What does any of the above have to the with the fall of the Salafi Dawah?

    Let’s focus here!”

    Rather, let’s not duck and cover. Al-Maghrib’s fees are entirely relevant to the topic as one of the topics touched on is that many Salafi org’s are out of touch with converts, many of whom are African-Americans, and many of whom can’t dish out $165 for a 2 days seminar. There is a strong prevalence of an elitest mentality amongst the Salafis (whether they be overt or covert) that is hard to deny.

    Why not take this as an impetus to do something constructive rather than getting all emotional? Why not reach out and touch base with affluent Muslims in North America, Europe and the Middle East and inform them of an organization that the Muslim youth are very enthusiastic about and that this organization should be fully funded. That way the expenses such as your pretty binders and pictures and teachers’ salaries, etc will be in the hands of a body of responsible financiers. I PROMISE YOU if that happens, these classes will not cost $168. If you have 600 plus attendees per class, with an average of 10 events a year at $168 that equals $1,008,000. I’m sorry, but you simply can’t justify that income with salaries, plane tickets and course materials. That simple math suggests to me some mismanagement and/or inexperience in dealing with financial matters. Fix it before 20/20 or some program like the UK’s “Dispatchers” decides to twist it into something far worse than it is. The last thing we need is an Islamic “Benny Hinn” exposé.

    Saying that a particular teacher in the org lives meagerly doesn’t disqualify the necessity to reduce their fees. Bill Gates comes on TV looking like a dork who shops at K-Mart every day. It doesn’t mean $500 for Windows Vista Ultimate isn’t a rip off.

    I’ve never suggested that Al-Maghrib’s teachers are becoming “fat cats” because that is blameworthy Soo’ al-Dhann and slander. May Allah save us all from such ill talk. This has absolutely nothing to do with the individuals involved in the organization and that is why I have never mentioned a single one by name. There is no need and its not individual personalities that I’m talking about. All I am saying is that their fees are too high. That is all and I’m afraid more people than their supporters would be comfortable with agree with me.

    This is directly relevant to the subject that the Salafis cater to the rich and social elite and often times leave converts and the less fortunate in the dust. That is without a doubt a contributing factor in their downfall in most parts of the USA with the exclusion of a few bastions in the affluent pockets of American Suburbia. Allah knows best.

  112. Abu Noor, please do not make this a personal thing. Your attack on brother Abu Sinan is unfounded and you don’t even understand the Hadith you quoted.

    من قال هلك الناس فهو أهلكهم
    “He who says that the people are ruined, then he is the most ruined amongst them.”

    The Sharrah have said that “an-Nas” here refers to the Muslims specifically. I know you might have a hard time grasping this, but Al-Maghrib is not the Muslim Ummah. They are a section of it and using your understanding of the Hadith we wouldn’t even be able to criticize any group of Muslims ever so long as their errancy didn’t amount to kufr!

    Please don’t make this a personal thing and don’t attack people. Jazak Allah.

  113. Hazari,

    I didn’t bother responding to you before because your statements are so ignorant that anyone listening to you realizes you are wrong. You have repeatedly made statements that are just false (the seminars which cost 165 dollars last 6 days, not 2) that your statements are slander.

    I respect Abu Sinan and so that is why I advised him as to why what he was saying is incorrect. You apparently have not even read his comment since you claim he is not speaking about muslims in general yet if one reads his last comment one finds:

    “The Muslim community in the USA, at times, is one of the most unIslamic societies that I have ever seen.”

    “This, my friends, is the state of the Muslim community in the USA.”

    “My matra is, and always will be, like George Bernard Shaw, that Islam is the best religion, with the worst followers.

    God, please save the world for Islam, from the Muslims.”

    So here he has not criticized AlMaghrib, but has criticized all the Muslims in the US several times, then stated that Muslims (the followers of Islam) are the worst followers, then has asked God to save the world from the Muslims.

    So, his statements are exactly in line with what the hadeeth is referring to and telling all of us not to engage in, inshAllaah.

    Allaah knows best.

  114. Abu Noor,

    there are many things I am certainly ignorant in. I am sure you are very ignorant in matters of Endoscopic Surgery, etc. We’re all ignorant in certain matters. This is not a sin.

    However, for you to call people ignorant and hurl names at them is a sin. All you are doing is exemplifying yet another flaw of the Salafi movement that has led to its demise: Poor manners.

    Also, for Abu Sinan to say that the Muslims in the USA are in bad shape is not relevant to the Hadith you quoted. You really don’t understand it. The Hadith says “al-Nas” in reference to the ENTIRETY of the Muslims. This Hadith would apply for someone to say “The Muslims are lost”. However, when the Tabi’in lamented the state of the Muslims of Basra, the Hadith did not apply to them!

    You need to calm down and stop making things personal by insulting people. Thank you.

  115. Hazari,

    The quotes are there for anyone to see and read. I was not insulting Abu Sinan, whom I love and respect but was correcting and advising him. I only advised him “publicly” because he was making false statements publicly. Perhaps I was still wrong to do so and for that I seek Allaah’s forgiveness. Surely I am much in need of it all the time.

    I did not desire to insult you either and said nothing to you or about you at all until you addressed a comment to me directly. I used the word ‘ignorant’ because it is the correct description of your state regarding AlMaghrib Institute, you don’t know anything about it.

    As you said, there’s nothing wrong with that, it’s perfectly okay that you don’t know anything about it. The problem came when you chose to make false statements and further express opinions about AlMaghrib despite your ignorance.

    Speaking without knowledge is always bad adab and when it is with regard to religious matters it is a great sin. I say that not because I wish to insult you or anyone else but because I wish to advise myself and yourself inshAllaah. I don’t know you, but since you are a Muslim I truly love you for the sake of Allaah.

    I pray that you, me, Abu Sinan and all the leaders of AlMaghrib can pray together one day or sit and share a meal. If not in this dunya, then inshAllah in His Jannah. Ameen.

    Allaah knows best.

  116. Apologies to brother Umar Lee for the various tangets these comment “discussions” have gone. I know these side “issues” are probably not all that desired.

    For Salman: no apologies needed and wa iyyak.

    However, I didn’t really say anything specific about liking or not liking your statement, nor do I find your “unpalatable” views concerning those issues all that relevant to what I thought of it. As I said, I merely found it amusing that you think so highly about some of your old friends, that’s all.

    In any case, carry on folks …

  117. jazakallahu khair Umar for this series. As a UK-er i can see some similarities between what you describe and what we saw here. Thankfully, there is other stuff you describe that DIDN’T take hold here.

  118. salam…
    what a great topic and discussion, only to be hijacked by a completely irrelevant and 3rd-grade-style AlMaghrib bashing. Interestingly, the bashers failed to mention that “sufi’ organizations also charge fees for their courses. Not to mention that Islamic universities also charge (AIU, IAU, AOU, whatever other combination). And I say Godspeed to them all to charge whatever they feel is needed to keep the effort going.

    My point again…. if we HAD learned anything from Br. Umar’s series, it was to avoid focusing on small, irrelevant, and “none-of-your-business” things, which contributed to the demise and implosion of a part of the dawah here. I don’t know Hazari, and he is best left ignored, because I don’t think he is interested in anything, except to start a flame-war on AlMaghrib (since that is only 1 of 2 “salafi” organizations left, so why not bury it too?). But Abu Sinan…I know you are obsessed with Saudi-bashing, didn’t know that extended to AlMaghrib too? Seriously though, I was giving you a pass for being obsessed with Saudi because of personal experiences, which can sometimes blurry one’s objectivity. It seems, however, that you are quite judgmental about a lot of things, just as you insinuated that I was “takfeeri” on another blog.

    SubhanAllah, before we ask and question what other duaa’t and other institutes are doing for Islam, we should be asking what are we doing for Islam? Don’t we have better things to do or learn or teach, instead of wasting our time typing up warped conclusions about the finances of entities or individuals?! I mean you could be working instead, earning, and saving up for that next AlMaghrib class ;)

    Allah Musta’aan

  119. In the Name of ALLAH the Most Gracious the Most Merciful

    As salaamu alaikum

    My dear brothers and sisters, I was raised as a Christian in the United Church of Christ. I learned as a young boy not to base my faith on the actions of the people, as it was nothing to find the Deacon trying to fornicate with the usher, or the Pastor trying to fornicate with the choir girl. I understood that God was perfect and He created an imperfect creation. When I became Muslim I found that ALLAH tells us, “Indeed in the Messenger of Allah (Muhammad peace and blessings be upon him) you have an excellent example to follow for him who hopes in (the Meeting with) Allah and the Last Day and remembers Allah much. (Chapter 33:21) So ALLAH directed us to follow His Messenger and His Messenger directed us to follow his companions. So don’t decide how you are going to practice Islam based upon what some American brothers may do or have done, as ALLAH did not leave them for you as an example to follow. And know for certainty that life is rough, and we are going to go through some hardships and trials. But I swear by ALLAH, if you were to wake up tomorrow and all your family had left you, and your friends had turned their backs on you, and your entire world had turned upside down, then there still would not be anything worthy of worship except for ALLAH and Islam would still be the truth. So it hurts to see the brothers and sisters stating that they “fell off” or “burn out” or stop practicing for a while due to the fitna that occurred in the west. And I am not at all minimizing the pain that people have suffered, but don’t let your relationship with the people affect your relationship with ALLAH. And ALLAH said, “And among mankind is he who worships Allah as it were, upon the very edge (i.e. in doubt); if good befalls him, he is content therewith; but if a trial befalls him, he turns back on his face (i.e. reverts back to disbelief after embracing Islam). He loses both this world and the Hereafter. That is the evident loss.”

  120. Jazakum Allahu khayrun Br. Umar for this series.

    Although I do agree with most of what you say I have to agree with Jinnzaman here in that the focus seems to be only on the most blatant manifestations of the internal Salafi divisions but not enough on a) the influence that traditional scholars had and b) that the implosion was bound to happen and easily noticeable years before it happened.

    I remember being a Salaafeeee for a few years when I first learned about the deen in the mid-late 90’s. I was at the Adly-Abu Muslimah bayah event and many others. I started to see from an early stage, long before TROID, that the Salafi-obsession with takfiring all others would eventually lead them with no one else to put down in order to make them feel good about themselves. I saw that it was going to eventually come to Salafis fighting one-another. The signs were there for those that looked.

    Despite the obvious signs that bad days were coming ahead I stayed with the Salafis only because I didn’t know of any other options. It seemed that every book & article then was written and published by Salafis. It seemed that this was the only path other than the Ikwanis. However once Masud Khan published Sheikh Nuh’s & Abdul Hakim Murad’s works on traditional Islam and the problems with Salafism English-speakers finally had a power alternative whose arguements were alot more convincing than what the Salafis could muster up with. Once the masses learned about the vast amount of traditional scholars like Hamza Yusuf & Zaid Shakir traditional Islam not only had strong defenders like those on Masud’s site but had the most elegant and inspiring teachers in the English Muslim world who kept us focus on the bigger picture and away from silly polemics.

    More than the push factors of the TROIDish Salafi groups it was the pull factors that the traditional scholars provided that finally gave many salafis an alternative they were looking for.

    As to the future of the Salafi movement, it currently it can only trive in a al-Maghrib format where takfiri-principles are withheld from students until they have invested a lot into it. Otherwise it is inevitable that every single Salafi community will go through a EO situation (if on a smaller scale)

  121. I don’t want to even get started into the traditionalist thing, because these “traditionalist”, at least 2 mentioned here (Nuh/Abdal hakim) have been spewing some venom of their own. Against the scholars of the past, including and esp. Ibn Taymiyyah, and the Muslims of today (with broad-strokes of Wahhabi labeling– see this) Recently, the latter was included in the Muslim hit-job on Channel 4. Interestingly, he also praised Kabbani’s insight on his claims about the 80% “wahhabi” masjids in America, right after 9/11.

    What I would say is that the sufis are in as much need of a house-cleaning, as we WERE a few years ago. Run with Hamza/Zaid, and leave these right-wingers alone. Recognize the fringes from the mainstream, if there is such in the “traditionalist” zone. That’s my 2 cents to you guys.

    And another 2 cents is to take this discussion of sufi vs salafi to Jinnzaman’s forum. Let this discussion be what it is intended to be. About our own house. And you may be an exception, but for the most part, it was our own that led to this.

    wallahu ta’ala alam.

  122. Hmm, this seems to have turned into bashing each other out again. Is there any hope of a peaceful dialogue filled with respect for the other side?
    Imam Al-Shafi said about himself that he wouldn’t debate with another except wishing for himself to lose the debate.
    With our lack of knowledge we still manage to assume that we “are right”, and go about “advising” and “correcting” in a self-righteous manner.

    Astaghfur Allah, I hope I didn’t offend anyone, and I ask you for your forgiveness.

  123. Abu Noor al-Irlandee said:

    “I pray that you, me, Abu Sinan and all the leaders of AlMaghrib can pray together one day or sit and share a meal. If not in this dunya, then inshAllah in His Jannah. Ameen.”

    Amin, Ya Rabb al-‘Alamin!

  124. Asalamu alaikum

    I ask Allah to help us not repeat the mistakes of the past, be it the student of knowledge,Daee, organizers or anyone else involved in the dawa back in America. ameen!

    1) One must not forget that many of those Sheikhs, Daees..etc that were talked about in a negative manner were of the originators of this fitna. So please make dua for those who are studying this beautiful deen abroad to come back and spread the worship of Allah with manners that are in accordance to the best of creation Muhammad (peace be upon him)

    2) I ask Allah to help us focus on spreading Islam in our country either by educating the muslims or calling the non muslims to Islam.

    I noticed that if you criticize a Sheikh or an organization you see how people can go overboard about either of the 2 and they start to look like groupie or have a cliquish attitude.

    May Allah guide us all. ameen

    3) I think that an issue that was not understood by some was the issue of how the conferences in the past made the convert/ revert feel wanted.

    This is an issue that insha Allah can be touched upon more by the brother Umar. It seems that many can’t understand what you were talking about. Allah knows best if they will but insha Allah I hope you could talk about it more or maybe write another article on this issue.

    May Allah keep us firm. ameen

  125. This was a very interesting read and a very enlightning account and experience of brother Umar, that can be shared by most Salafis in the U.S aswell as the U.K. and elswhere where the fitnah struck by the decree of Allaah to try our eemaan and Islam. Only those who had nurtured, purified and educated themselves upon knowledge and with a balanced, open minded perspective and view came out as survivors. Who are still following the blessed Aqeedah and Manhaj of the Salaf as-Saali without any extemisim in being harsh and severe nor being extreme in being too soft and lenient. And they are the ones who have nothing to do with the likes of SPUBS, AL-ATHARIYAH and TROID in Canada. May Allaah make us firm upon the truth. If brothers and sisters converts (even born Muslims) just came into the Da’wah for socialisation,brotherhood and looking for wives , money etc. then they are the ones who have and will be effected negatively with the various fitnah that one will go through personally as well as collectively in the jama’ah of Salafi Da’wah. Life is a test, we will have ups and downs. But having taqwah, knowledge and aspiaring for the hereafter will make us strong and firm, insha’Allaah. The more correct title that Umar could have given to describe the experience and fitnah would have been ‘Salafi Dawah in America’
    As Islam upon the understanding and methodology of the early righteous Muslims (salaf as-saalih) is the truth and has been around and will always be around. It may seen inactive at certain stage in a country, locality etc. but it will still be around for anyone to learn and accept, and only the sincere and truthfull ones will be guided to the true understanding of Salafi Da’wah. Towards the end of the article Umar wrote that al-maghrib and other intitutes does not cater and facilitate the atmosphere for reverts, how can this be true? A revert has to make aado with the area they live in and try their best to fit it in. Obviously they will find themselves feeling isolated in an over whelming majority of born Muslims gathering but it should not bother them, in time they will fit in generally atleast.

  126. Going off of something Hazari said in his or her posts up above, the Ikhwan, the Sufis…all cater to the rich…in a way .. if you wana go by their ‘fees’.

    Recently we had some events in our area that Br Hamza yusuf spoke at…I think it was about $100.

  127. Burgundy… (br. or sr.) … just drop it akhi/ukhti.

    This is not the point. And to be honest, to have an effective “show” here in USA, $$ are needed. That’s the plain reality. At the same time, the SAME shayookh, on all sides, give plenty of free halaqat in their cities/masajids… as well as the internet and bookstores are filled with knowledge. So, there’s opportunity for all to learn.

  128. May Allah help all those people who were abandoned and remove those who always point fingers at others whilst ignoring the nafs of oneself.

    I feel for your brother. I am Hanafi in fiqh but dont care about labels. InshAllah all those broken people will be picked up again by the Muslim communities they seperated from and then helped to rebuild their lives.

  129. as-Salâm ‘alaikum wa rahmatullah,

    I’m going to be trying out some of those HTML tags in this comment, so my apologies if it comes out all screwy.

    For Harshismisonpoint2day: If you’re referring to the email I think you are, the brother was saying that this account of the Salafî da’wah’s history should not be spread not because he was warning from brother Umar Lee, but because of the inaccuracies it contained concerning certain events and causes for events. This concern has been mentioned by others here; namely brother Hashi Mohamed ( and I.

    As for what was mentioned by Aboo Moosaa: If brothers and sisters converts (even born Muslims) just came into the Da’wah for socialisation,brotherhood and looking for wives , money etc. then they are the ones who have and will be effected negatively with the various fitnah that one will go through personally as well as collectively in the jama’ah of Salafi Da’wah.

    I agree with this completely. I would also add if these various other reasons for coming into the da’wah were not the cause of these brothers and sisters leaving or falling off, it was probably (and most likely) because of their lack of a firm foundation, knowledge-wise and methodology-wise. Those who were firm in their foundations remained upon what they were upon before a lot of these fitan started occurring, and will remain upon it until Allah decrees otherwise.

    For me, I think this was one of the main flaws with the da’wah in all North America, not just the US. Many of those coming into the da’wah were not taught the basics and foundations properly. Everyone was chanting the slogans of “at-Tasfiyah wat-Tarbiyah” but very few implemented it the way Shaikh al-Albânî and the other scholars who called for it intended it to be implemented; wallahul-Musta’ân.

  130. salam aliakum,

    It seems like that the marriage-divorce dilemma only happened in Philly, NJ area (wAllahu ‘alam) and among a certain ethnic group, unfortunately.

    It must have been very painful for those sisters who suffered through this. And I hope and pray that Allah az-Zawjal immensely rewards them for their suffering, and may Allah bring those sisters back to Islam who ‘fell off’ because of this tragedy. Indeed, a shame for those brothers who forgot the proper ‘sunnah’ of treating their wives.

    But, please do remember that this problem doesn’t exist among all salafees or even among the majority du’aats, walhamdullilah. If that was the case, I’m sure others of ‘that era’ like Sh. Ali, JZ, Jibaly, Ammar Ammenet etc. had multiple wives as well :) or a history of marriage/divorce, but they don’t!

    Not all salafees treat their wives harshly, or have 9-10 children to overburden their wives, force their wives to home-school etc.

    Let not the action of few be labeled as everyone’s characteristic.

  131. As salaamu alaikum:

    Umar, I want to thank you for posting such a great, thought provoking series, that was obviously, truly and deeply from your heart, and from your own experiences. Although it was really sad and depressing…

    I really wanted to bring up something that NOBODY has brought up. I believe that possibly many may not agree with my comments and/or opinions, but I really feel like I need to get this off of my chest, and would like the opinions and feedback from other brothers and sisters, insha’Allah, so here it goes.

    I believe that one of the biggest reasons for the decline of the “Salafi” dawah, or movement, is that many IMHO (though NOT ALL of course), of the “Salafi” brothers and sisters (they call themselves that) believe in the most REPUGNANT, EVIL, DESPICABLE, and HORRENDOUS things. (the caps are there because I can’t emphasize this enough, and have to keep it real)

    They believe that ANY killing, slaughtering, shedding blood of a disbeliever is perfectly HALAAL (!!!!!) They say Allah (SWT) wants us (all Muslims) to do this!!!!! (AstaghfirAllah adheem!) They believe that THERE ARE NO noncombatants (civilians) kuffar TODAY, hence they all approve, THEY CELEBRATE, ARE VERY HAPPY, THEY ALL PRAISE (!!!!!) the killing of noncombatant non-Muslims that happened on 9-11, the Madrid bombings, and the bombings of London, etc. They blindly praise the so-called “true Shuyookh” constantly, such as “sheikh” Osama, “Sheikh” al-Zawahiri, Sheikh Nasser Al-Fahd, “Sheikh” Abu Hamza al-Masri, Abu Qatada, Abdullah al-Faisal, Omar Brooks/Abu Izzadeen, etc, al.

    They all glorify and celebrate ANY killing of a kafir. They have told people that they should cut the throats of all Jews, kill and slaughter any kafir, for no reason, etc., etc.

    Look at the most popular “Salafi” destination/website on the web today: At-tibyan Publications

    This, At-tibyan Publications, is linked on almost every “Salafi” blog. All they can say is kill the kuffar, kill the kuffar, kill the kuffar, kill the kuffar (they are talking about not just military which is legitimate, but emphasize ANY noncombatant kuffar), and the only people that have refuted these IMHO, extremist, terroristic, crazy brothers (they call for slaughtering any kuffar civilians!!!!! PERIOD, no ifs, ands, or buts….. oops, I’m sorry…. there are no “noncombatant’s now a days”… as they say, my bad…….. ) are the so-called “Saudi Salafis,” so-called “Taghoot stooge” Salafis, so-called “apostate” Salafis, etc., as they say (not my words)….

    How can the many non “kill and slice the throat of all the kuffar” type of Salafi brothers continue to give dawah, when most of their “brothers” (and sisters; have you all not seen some of these sisters’ blogs/websites too? subhanAllah) continue to preach the type of stuff you find at “At-tibyan Publications?”

    Why has no-one addressed (if I missed it I’m sorry) these “At-tibyan Publications” brothers and sisters and the impact they have had not only on the Salafi Dawah in the US/UK, but other Muslims and potential non-Muslim reverts/converts as well?

    I look forward to your responses, insha’Allah

  132. Tibyan pubs and the Takfiri Salafis are irrelevant to this discussion because they had no real presence until 9/11 and the internet. Most of the Salafis that went through all of this drama were not Takfiris like Tibyan. And none of the salafis that Umar spoke of believe like those people you mentioned.

  133. Abu Noor,

    I certainly do take offense to what you said. Can you point me to anything that I said that says I am better than anyone else?

    It would seem that maybe my words are hitting some inner conflict within yourself.

    So when you say “Abu Sinan, apparently you are not interested in learning Islamic knowledge or helping others to, but rather you are interested in convincing all of us how bad all the Muslims are and (I guess) how much better you are.”

    You are lying, plain and simple.

    I think I have made my point rather clear, on this blog and my own, that I feel the state of the Muslim Ummah is awful. You can try to quote Hadith at me, but even the Prophet himself said at the last days holding onto one’s deen would be like holding onto lit charcoal.

    You might think that means that powers outside the Ummah might make it hard on Muslims, but I dont think so. I think it means that the state of the Muslim community itself, would be so bad that it will make it hard for Muslims to hold onto their deen.

    This is what I feel, and the state of the Muslim community, around the world, is my proof. I have been involved in Muslim communities, in one way or another from Morroco, to Ireland and Europe, the Middle East and the USA.

    It is a sad state of affairs. The Muslim community, as it stands, is a shame to the religion of Islam. Sorry, but that is the fact.

    I guess if your deen is based on the idea of a perfect community then this might come as a shock. I have met converts whose deen was based on the idea of a “perfect” Muslim community, those types usually end up leaving the deen when they find out places like Makkah and Medina have gay marriages happening, drinking parties, heroine a hundred yards from the Grand Mosque.

    Again, I will say what a well known African American convert said one Friday in his Khutba at Dar al Hijrah in the metro DC area.

    He looked at the hundreds of “born” Muslims in the audience and scolded them. He told them “I came not to Islam because of people like you, I came to Islam DESPITE people like you.”

    I can learn what I need to know from Hadith and The Qur’an. I dont need to pay hundreds of dollars to have someone give me materials I can find on line or in personal research.

    I never claimed to want to help others to learn. If I did, I certainly wouldnt charge hundreds of dollars to do so.

    So I will sit and await your wonderful prognosis about the great state of the Muslim community today! Please ignore the tyrants in Morroco, Tunisia, Egypt, Kuwait, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, Bahrain, Qatar, United Arab Emirates, Pakistan, Oman and other places.

    Please explain to me how the societies in these countries, despite their leaders, are some how better than those here in the West.

    Having lived and visited most of the places I mentioned, and in the West, I can tell you without a doubt that the societies here in the West are fair more fair, open and “Islamic” in nature than any “Muslim” country in the world.

    That, my friend, is what was meant when it is said that in the Last Days holding onto one’s deen would be like holding onto lit charcoal. When even Muslims look at the Muslim community and hang their head in shame, that is where we have come to.

    I will remain Muslim, as always, inspite of other Muslims and the Muslim community, simply because of my love of Allah and His Prophet, and the perfection that is the deen of Islam.

  134. Assalamu Alaykum
    Sometimes I wonder if some of you brothers exist on another plane than the rest of us. Maybe being a sister I see things in a totally different way . A lot of sister that I know didnt leave the dawa because of being ignorant. They left for greener pastures becasue they were oppressed, intimidated “dogged out” by men that claimed salafeeyah and to this day still claim salafeeyah.
    The salafees in the Uk were never free from the fitan. I know sisters who left the dawa after their children were taken into care. I know brothers whop have 2 or 3 wives who have a lot of their wives on housing benefit and income support. And let us not forget the salafee brothers who robbed the burger joint in London claiming that it was permissable because it was Darul Harb. Puhleese!
    Luton Vs B’Ham. B’ham Vs Brixton. B’ham Vs the world! Be real Ikhwaan. The Uk was never free from the inter-fasction rivalry and in fighting that affected the US dawa. The UK was just lower profile than the flashier(trashier) USA.
    Knowing the Salafees from both sides of the pond. I dont know who was worse. At least the American Salafee brothers had some chutzpah to cover up their inadequacies.Some of their fragrant evilness was so outrageous that you just HAD to be in awe of them.
    (Have you ever witnessed a brother with 4 wives trying to spin his way out of being caught haveing secret “sit-downs” with multiple women? C’mon Ahkee this aint the end of dont have to stock up for when theres no women left!)

    The question is not whether the dawa will remain. Its not even whether the problems are a way for Allah to purify the Dawa from the insincere ones(because not everyone was caught) The question is..where do we go from here?
    How do we correct the still rising problems among the remnants of the salafees? How do we put back together that original spark of true love and sincerity that existed in the early 90’s. Is there any hope for us?
    You see there are an awful lot of sisters burned by the dawa. Sisters with children. Children with fathers who havent even attempted to see or speak to their own seed in years. These are the very real social problems. I am concerned with the womenfolk. Those that are the most vunerable. Can anyone tell me what anyone has done to address the plight of the sisters in the USA and the UK who have been forgotten?
    You see there is eomething wrong with men and women all clinging to Islam not being able to come together for the better good. Isnt that what Islam is suposed to be? Oh and this is not coming from my pain and hurt or bitterness(although I feel all three at times) I was one of the blessed ones. I managed to take care of my children in spite of what was in front of me but not everyone was like me. Oh if it was permissable Id love to take out a full page ad once a month in the NY times with the names and criminal headshots of all the deadbeat salafee fathers who left their children at the mercy of the kuffar and went on to greener, younger thinner pastures(if you know what I mean) !
    And with that I bid you adieu. I really need to start my own blog..Im way too opinionated for these comments(lol)

  135. Myopic:

    I think that Umm Reem and Amad DO live in a different reality than we do and didn’t see the fitnah what we saw

  136. Muslim Dude:


    I don’t think that the majority of those that call themselves Salafis believe like those extreme, violent jihadi, takfeeri guys. They not only cause most Salafis to look bad – they make ALL us Muslims look bad. None of the Salafis that I know believe or propagate those types of extremes. Just being fair here. I have issues with the ‘da’wah’ but that isn’t one of them. At least in the context of Umar’s posts. The social ramifications of that movement here in the U.S. (can’t speak with any knowledge about the UK) is what concerns me.

    I do know that the element you discribe is very real however. I don’t trivialize what you’ve described. I just know that like any movement – part of the ‘fall’ is splintering. And eventually you end up with derivitives of derivitives of the original group. All focusing on what they perceive SHOULD be the focus of the da’wah. And this is not limited to salafis. It’s just what I think is a common pattern across ‘movement’ factions.

  137. I lived through this era and experienced the salafi dawah. What you have written is very true to the letter. I agree that almost every Islamic Movement in America has for one reason or the other not clearly addressed the needs of the indigenous people. The tablighi jamaat has also grown and taken a dip in the similar manner. But as we continue to draw closer to the last days sincerity, love and caring in Muslim (especially the immigrant Muslims) has been fading exponentially. It will require a grass-root effort of love and opening our doors to welcome the indegious people not to just joining some movement but building a brotherhood (like blood brothers).

  138. I am born muslim and i cannot relate to this interesting post mainly because in our community nobody refers to themselves as salafis etc but just as muslims. However there are many comments from sisters who are feeling sorry for themselves and their sisters who have been treated badly by salafi men. Its the woman’s fault as well. Why are we accepting marriages where the man hasnt got a job and does not want to support the family financially? why are we accepting to be second wives? why are we getting married to men we know little of their upbringing and background? why are we rushing to marriages just because he dresses islamically and has a beard and you yourself lack in knowledge and love for this deen? Are we so naive or just irresponsible about completing half of our deen?What happened to compatibility and finding a husband who is going to be a role model for our children? The social problems that have been mentioned exist in other non-muslim communities mainly african-americans and afro-carribeans, somalis in the UK, just because he is a muslim doesnt mean it wouldnt affect us. Why do we have such low expectations of men? We should take the blame for our actions. So next time you are choosing a husband please do take it more seriously than choosing a boyfriend for a date.

  139. Akhi Salafee Dude, please do tell me if I live in a different world. I do admit that the ‘fitnah’ you speak of didn’t touch us, wlahamdullialh. But do remember that NJ and Philly don’t make all the salafees of US either.

    I asked a question, how many du’aats outside of Philly had marriage-divorce marry-go-around problem?

    My early models of ‘salafee’ da’wah are people like Yasir Qadhi, Ali Timimi, and especially JZ who has one wife and subhanAllah the way he takes care of his wife is indeed admirable!

    I must say that another du’aat was from NJ area (I will refrain from naming him because I don’t want to get involved in any element of backbiting, insahAllah), and he did have the problem you all speak of. So I’m bound to think that it was more of a NJ/Philly issue among AA.

    I ‘heard’ about the fitnah, and it came to my knowledge as a ‘salafi vs. saroori’ fitnah. Some of us sisters asked Sh. Waleed about what was happening and he told us not to worry about it. I myself was taking classes at AOU at that time (still am) and I concentrated on my studies.

    I had no knowledge of this ‘boycotting’ issue until I read Umar’s posts. I remember once someone saying, ‘we dont’ fall into typical salafee way of boycotting people’ and his comments flew over my head because I had no idea what he was referring to!

    Sister Myopic Vison: ” I am concerned with the womenfolk. Those that are the most vunerable. Can anyone tell me what anyone has done to address the plight of the sisters in the USA and the UK who have been forgotten?”

    We, Houston sisters have always been active in da’wah world. I will be quite honest though, it was not ‘catered’ to us, we had to make our own effort to be more involved and ‘heard’.
    We started ‘daughters of adam’ in 2001, which was a bi-monthly magazine for sisters, only dealing with sisters’ issues (mothers, daughters, in-laws, converts, teenagers etc.), every age group and converts contributed an article.
    Later, we cut it short to quarterly because the work was too much to handle. Our website was more active before then now.

    We also started hosting an yearly conference, where ONLY women issues were dealt with. I can tell you this because I myself used to finalize titles. Sisters of Houston loved it alhamdullialh. Not only they were TOTALLy incharge of organizing it, they loved the fact that speakers would only address female issues. Our speakers would be like Yahya Ibraheem, Yasir Qadhi, Safi Khan, Yasir Fazaqa etc.

    We had female speakers too, Umm Abdullah Jibaly who would drive from Dallas (speaking of her, she is also a wife of a salafee–and I think her husband is more afraid of her then she is of her husband :) )
    Jasmine White (Sh. Waleed’s wife), and Henaa Gamal (graduate of Al-Azhar, Masters from AOU).

    So this was about DOA. Our publications has stopped temporarily ever since I moved (and I have no one to blame but my ownself for that). However, we are planning to revive our website, upload forums on it. InshaAllah we will have a Muslim female GYNO, Muslim female psychologist to answer questions. I’m also trying to get Henaa Gamal for marriage counseling section. And this will be ONLY for sisters inshaAllah.

    Speaking of Sister Henaa Gamal, mashAllah, she gives halaqas to sisters in Houston, and even does marriage counseling. She wouldn’t hesitate walking up to a brother and telling him how to ‘treat your wife’ if she has to. She is also one of those sisters who actually called to a du’at who had the ‘marriage-divorce’ issue and give him naseeha.
    She is a very respected figure of our community and one of DOA and TDC’s speakers…

    By the way, TDC’s sisters design their own program, lecture titles, speakers, games etc. whatever we want to do.

    So this is the world I come from! YES, I cried for days and days after moving out of Houston. I felt like I was being ‘punished’ for not being thankful enough to live in such a community and that is why Allah az-Zawjal took me out of there.
    But my dear sisters of Houston reminded me that what is happening in Houston can happen in Delaware too. So inshaAllah I have plans to start ‘sisters’ conference here too and revive DOA’s website first and then publication inshaAllah. I’m just a little overwhelmed at the moment with my new daughter…i think i had forgotten the world of infants!

    Anyways, inshaAllah there is a lot of hope for future inshaAllah. If you have any specific advice for sisters’ issue or there is something you would like to see for future, please email me.

    May Allah az-Zawjal make all of us sincere and upon siraat-ul-mustaqeem.

  140. Salama 3aliekum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuhu

    After reading the tragic series and detail information on how was the salafee dawah flourished and then got destroyed, it makes me realise some points:

    1- How come this has never been a result in arabs? The arab countries are not pron to these evil diseases. People are well dependent and have a well bond with their ulema. For the west, their local duaat suppose to be their guiding lamps.

    2- How come when this fitnah arose (especially with Sheikh Ali Tammimi), why were the major ulema not consulted and real solution was improvised

    3- How come these “idiots” meaning the kids who just came to islam and championed about the manhaj and being upon haqq or resemblen umar ibn khattab in his hatred and love for Deen, were not taught the adab of differeing in sub-divse issues.

    People when they do not possess knowledge, then certainly possess ignorance and ignorance guides to destruction and not the opposite. This is evident from the ignorance of the “salafee” who call themselves “troid”…may Allah give them what they deserve and make the sufferings of Sheikh Ali Tammimi upon these “donkeys, these idiots” who are attached to triod and salafipublicatoins.

    Those who promote Sheikh Rabee and their likes, go and learn the basic principals that “mere words of praise do not form that individual into something he is not”….

    Many have elevated this sheikh into the major ulema, where as in saudi, he is not even known.

    We westerns needs to be abit more sensible, as sahabah were, they flew away from fitnah.

    Wa salama 3aliekum wa rahamatullahi wa barakaatuhu

  141. Assalaamu ‘Alaykum Wa Rahmatullaahi Wa Barakatuh.

    The severe fitna that has struck the ranks of the “Madakhila” have made its adherents especially amongst its more sincere, “confused” youth – like “sitting ducks” in the ongoing intense crusade that is being waged against Islaam and the Muslims, and many are blinded of this – due to living in a “bubble” for so long. And this is the reality of affairs – “the bigger picture” and its consequences are catastrophic.

    Today the enemies of Islaam have identified the only threat & danger they fear amongst the Ummah of Muhammad (SAW) against their domination of Kufr and Shirk and it is none other than the army of at taifa al mansoora…………., its adherents, leaders, ulema and ansaar.

    What we are witnessing today is the ongoing battle between the vangaurds of Ahlus Sunnah and the enemies of Allah (SWT), it is simply a manifestation of the struggle between haqq vs baatil.

    So what have the “madakhila” being doing all this time?…………………while the kuffar fought the mujahidin with “spears” the madakhila fought them with “speech”,

    ………….now the feeling of loneliness?, sadness?, emptiness?………depression?……………….despair?……communities destroyed?………………brotherhood shattered?……………….families torn apart?

    one wonders why?…………I think it’s time to “smell the coffee”.

    Go against “At-Taifa Al Mansoorah” one goes against Allah (SWT)………….and we seek refuge in Allah (SWT) from this.

    “If Allâh helps you, none can overcome you; and if He forsakes you, who is there after Him that can help you? And in Allâh (Alone) let believers put their trust. “(Aali Imran 3:160)

    …………….so the answer is clear.

  142. I’ve refrained from commenting till now.

    One of the sad factors among others that seem characteristic of the fitnah, to extract from this narrative and the experience of others, is that of baseless raising of unwarranted doubts and starting or propagating rumours about the callers to Islam, by muslims like ourselves – some unintentionally and some intentionally. By some with the best of intentions, others maliciously. By some, deliberately.. others, without thinking like the hadeeth-mentioned one who narrates all that he hears.

    So for example, the comment right here of someone close to Abu Muslimah asserting as falsehood that which was popularly spread about him allegedly calling for/implementing (i forget which) hudood in his community. Amazing.
    The famous case of Ali Timimi – and I dont mean the court case – and what was spread about him, e.g. about his wife.
    The many many duat, who’s names have been listed here, that were pushed ‘off the manhaj’ and people turned away from based on what? allegations and doubts of dubious legitimacy .
    (I am referring to baseless doubt and spurious rumour, not referring to people being warned against for legitimate infractions or ikhtilaf.)

    So I think what I said in my first paragraph is backed up.

    Suspicion and raising of doubts, cloaked in reasonableness or moral high ground.
    Spread to people it should not have been spread to. Oh yes, that’s the other aspect.
    Openly discussing these contentious issues outside the proper place. Case in point, again mentioned in the comments, whether or not Abul-Hasan was mubtadi or whatever and then testing people upon it who neevr heard of him even.
    Also: making things the business of people who it was no business of, and, frankly didnt care even one-tenth as much as the people raising the issue.
    Also: raising these doubts WITHOUT giving nasihah to the person being maligned and instead spread among the populace behind their back, without recourse to as easily defending themselves.

    So I marvel at something that has been raised here. Something that is, at best, a tenuously linked side issue and blatant thread-hijacking, and at worst… well I wont say what at worst. But I marvel that it has been raised.

    I marvel that some have raised issue with the dawah organisation al-maghrib.. on this thread.

    Is there not a sad, sad irony in that, my brothers and sisters..?

    (btw I am not a student nor organiser nor affiliated. In fact I am in the UK not the US… so there.)

    What was it I was saying earlier.. ah yes.
    Suspicion and raising of doubts, cloaked in reasonableness or moral high ground. To say the least.

    You might assert that it is very much relevant to with Umar’s subject matter.
    Rather, I say, rather you should take heed of the lessons from Umar’s narrative.

    “What!” you might cry, “Would you stop us from raising any concerns, daring to utter any criticism in the slightest??”
    No, I say. No – but it must be raised in the proper place, the right ‘forum’ so to say. Among the right people. TO the right people, damnit.

    Suspicion and raising of doubts, cloaked in reasonableness or moral high ground.

    ….Are we to make the same mistakes.. all over again.. soo soon.. right here??
    Ya Rabb..

    As if the matter at hand (yes.. like, can we go back to focussing on that btw??).. as if the matter at hand wasn’t already sad and painful enough.

    So allow me. my brothers and sisters. Permit me min fadlikum, to offer some naseehah, even as I feel sadness begin to acquire the edge of frustration and despair (audhu min dhalik) at witnessing all this.

    Any doubts as to their transparency, or financial fidelity/spending or to why they do/can or dont/cant cater to some sections etc etc..
    please my brothers, ask yourselves, is this the place for it?

    Do you really want to raise propagate those doubts here, without evidence other than speculation, in the minds of the readers here?

    Any concerns as to the al-maghrib model, ask al-maghrib. Or raise it on their forums.
    Not elsewhere.
    For even were you to have your own doubts answered at somepoint, those you may have evoked in others elsewhere may remain, do you see? To have the effect of raising suspicion and doubt about an organisation that may have been unwarranted all along.

    Let us please think, will our speech here count for us or against us on the Day?

    Finally I ask that you forgive and overlook if I have wronged you.
    May Allah protect all of us from anything of evil from any our speech and actions made anytime anywhere past present or future.

    Perhaps we can go back to sharing our thoughts on the matter at hand, analysing the reasons, learning lessons. BENEFITTING. Benefitting, insha Allah.

    I can only HOPE, in reading the new comments, that have surely come in since I’ve been typing this, that.. that there IS hope.

    Again, I apologise if I came across harsh or pompous or sarcastic or anything.. I think we who have witnessed this all feel some pain.. maybe I’ll narrate my own soon, having been in the salafi dawah since the JIMAS conference in the UK where Ali Timimi was translating for Salim Hilali and Ali Hasan al-Halabi… with Suhaib Hasan on the panel too. Remember that? Heh, believe that, even? Ay na’am! What happened to those days.. I have never talked nor typed about any of this before.. getting misty eyed. Subhanallah. Subhanallah.

    wa salam.

  143. Asalama 3aliekum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuhu


    Some advice from salaf:
    “when you see a person indulge in debate, know that he is fedup of worshipping Allah”


    People (Sheikh Ali Tammimi, Abu Muslim etc) who have been guiding others, suddenly become “misguided” and “deviant” because of such a minor issue!
    People who rejoiced at the capture of these people (troid and spubs), according to tenisy of faith written by Imam Abdul Wahhab:
    “anyone who assists disbelivers in fighting against islam or muslims becomes a kaafir” should really question their assosiation to the “pure manhaj” of salafiyyah as they say:
    “the worst muslim is better than a best kafir”

    Where are the etiquettes of advising fellow muslims. All this “messup” occured due to:
    1- Ignorance of “people of ilm” who taught they had ilm

    2- People falling into blind following

    3- Ulema left without consultation

    4- Jealousy, Hatred, High ranks

    I wish Troid and supbs carry the sin of the disaster of a blissful community and loss of marriages and families.

    Wa salama 3aliekum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuhu

  144. Umm Reem, may Allaah have mercy upon you, me and all of us, but I gotta bring the noise here. You and others are coming off as condescending to us on the East Coast and to those who happen to be of “a certain ethnic group” on how you all in Houston were not effected by the fitnah while only we were (??)

    I AGREE that the salafees are not all in NJ and Philly, but I disagree 100% that the fitnah was confined to NJ and Philly and my disagreement is based on knowledge, witnessing and going through it myself.

    Know that the fitnah raised its ugly head in Atlanta, Pittsburgh (!!), Kansas City, Boston, Nashville, South Carolina, North Carolina, Tampa, Orlando, Indianapolis, Miami, Dallas, Chicago, Detroit, Columbus, Cincinnati, Cleveland and even remote places like Kansas. It even crossed the border over into Canada!

    I’m out!!!

  145. Seeing that so many of us have traveled to various parts in the states in the various Salafi circles back in the day, I wonder how many of us actually know each other in real life? Probably many of us do but dont know it.

  146. Interesting stuff. For me both new age sufis and salafis were strange and intellectually dishonest enough to let my nafs excuse me from committing to Islam (at least the public confession and daily prayers).

    Zaytuna and the traditionalists offered a substantial option, and yet Salafi burnout isn’t just for salafis. Even California Sunnah sufi-friendlies are effected and a number have returned to old habits under pressure of current realities. It seems like a there’s stagnation in American Islam in a general climate of insecurity and inability to overcome distrust among the various Muslim subcultures.

  147. Yusuf Honky (interesting name), care to elucidate in more detail what you mean by salafi burnout not being just for salafis?

  148. Reading this series just made me sad. As a convert, I discovered a faith with unity and beauty woven together into a dazzling fabric in which I wanted to wrap myself. What I later found in the Muslim communities was pettiness and animosity towards many “factions” that I never even knew existed. Had someone asked me if I were Salafi or Sufi back then I would have said “neither, I’m Muslim.” I would give the same answer today, although my answer then would have been one of sincere naivete while my answer now embodies a sincere critique.

    I missed out on all this drama, and I am grateful beyond measure that I did. Sadly I discovered similar faction-bashing amidst Sufi circles and immigrant communities wherein “Salafi” was a bad word; and God help you if you were Shia.

    In my opinion, this notion of “in-group/out-group” is a real disaster. Nobody needs to “divide and conquer” Muslims because we do 90% of the work for them.

  149. Man it’s simple. Go back to Ibn Taymiya (rA) and forget all the modern personalities. So-called “Salafis” are just creedal Hanbalis with an identity crisis.

    When I say “Hanbalis” I mean in creed specifically. You may be of whatever fiqh mathhab you like, but I guarantee had you all taken an exam to gauge such you’d be graded A+ Hanbalis in ‘Aqidah.

    Drop the “Salafi” name, drop the “Salafi” clique, go to the source, end the crisis.

    Thank you.


  151. Yusuf Honky, regarding what you say about “burnout” not just being of the Salafi kind. I fully agree with you. Many Zawiyyites (Keller) and Zaytunites (Hamza Yusuf) are going through the same thing. What the common denominator between all these is that you end up with a sincere, yet sorely disheartened, young Muslim who ends up with nowhere to go and an overwhelming sense of emptiness. If he/she stays on that for long enough it can have devestating and insurmountable negative effects on their iman.

    We need to identify the problem and that is importing Western “Pop Culture” into an Islamic framework. We all grew up looking up to Pop and Hollywood figures and when we came to Islam we needed to replace those icons in a way that was compatible for our Islamic lifestyle. So we filled Tupac’s shoes with Ali Timimi, Hamza Yusuf, etc.

    This had a negative effect upon the devotee and the icon alike. One time I was conversing with one of the Islamo-Pop icons and I had a hard time holding a conversation with him because he was very absorbed in signing autographs for sisters. I wanted to say, ‘You need to please take time out from signing girls’ autographs and talk to me or this conversation is over.’

    We need to look back in our history and realize that the greatest pillar Imams of our Ummah were revered and respected, but they ate the wheat with the chaffe. They had no status above their students. Their students were not in mouth agape awe over them regardless of how high their esteem or reverence for them was.

    Everyone is to blame here, but bogging ourselves down in finger pointing (whether it be at others or introspectively at ourselves) is not productive.

    Let’s just identify the problems and fix them. You shouldn’t have to pay for an Islamic lecture like a rock concert. The teacher should not be unapproachable by the students. If they rush him and flock him then he needs to deal with it. They aren’t paparazzi, they’re your Muslim brethren. The great divide between these iconic Islamic scholars and the masses needs to be torn down with a vengance.

  152. For those who say the dawaah is dead, it isn’t! alhamdulillaah it lives on…this dawaah can never die!

    Those who want to know how the uk sisters were affects, well we lost friends, family, and until this day i still hear the silly arguments ” are you with spubs” subhanallaah.

    You still get judged if you go to a conference in luton, brixton, bham…they still ask you your opinion on abul hassan, the ironic thing is most of these sisters don’t even know he is… but they want your opinion on him before they judge you, and before they decide if you guys can be friends.

    As for the fitan between the daee’s, there is alot here in the u.k, spubs related allahul musta’aan, and as the sister mentioned the brothers trying to get with the yougner sisters, they can get for advice and the brother befriends them allaahul musta’aan!

    there is no point going into the ins and out of this, but i do hope we learn somethign from these comments and this blog, the fitan effected us all in a way, had an impact on us, some turned away from the deen, the dawaah, some like me refuse to go to any events to result in learning the deen through tapes and books, due to too much bickering, arguments on the sisters section.

    The dawaah is suffering, and it will continue to suffer until we make a positive change…i ask allaah to protect us from this fitna, aameen!

  153. I agree, it is true that many Salafi’s suffer from what people call “Salafi Burnout”. But there are also Sufi’s that suffer from what I will call “Sufi Spinout”. Its the same thing, righteous Muslim, goes out and then all of a sudden his identity collapses and he reverts back to his old ways.

  154. Assalamu alaikum wa rahmatullah wa barakaatuh,

    Firstly, I would sincerely like to express my appreciation To br. Umar Lee for his time and effort in writing these article. It can be said that ‘he who does not learn from history is bound to make the same mistakes’.

    My name is Muhammad bin Muhammad, and I live in the UK – specifically, London. I grew up in Hackney which is a London borough and has a similar reputation to that of the Bronx, Queens or Harlem. I am 23, have lived here all my life and am married to a revert (mash’allah). I am also a graduate and I am training to become a teacher. I make a point in letting you know who I am as I feel it is expedient that we do not fear the ‘blame of the blamers’. It is truly unfortunate what has happened to sh. Ali and may Allah increase him and his family with steadfastedness and perseverence.

    As to the ‘salafi da’wah’, here in the UK, moderates among the Salafi’s have distanced themselves from this title – I use the word moderate in an Islamic sense (I abhor the kuffar’s word games), between ‘super’ and the ‘khawariji’ types. Reasons for this distancing has simply been because of the negative promotion by Salafi Publications. Now, as I live in the UK, I come across SP folk all of the time. Forget ‘Muslim’s’, they are the worse humans I have ever met in my life. The thugs that stand on the street corner have more semblence of Islamic ettiquette and manners than them. They call towards ‘Aqidah’ and ‘Haqq’, but most of them have not studied Aqidah as to know what is correct. They are taught simple formulas such as ‘Allah is above his throne’ and spend most of their time in the persuit of either slander of false lies. For a while, they have been slandering Sh. Suhaib Hasan who has not only refuted them, but is also backed by Sh. Waseeullah Abbas from Makkah. SP continue to rant and rave, but their volume seems to be dimming (which at the moment is like a whisper!). Alhamdulillah, more and more youngsters in the UK are turning to the correct Aqidah and also becoming more practising to the point that a report was published for the government two days ago which stated that the majority of the youth were practising (more than their parents Alhamdulillah) and preferred to live under Allah’s laws. Obviously, this has them really worried but nonetheless, Alhamdullillah, it is getting stronger. We are in no way near the model of E.O, but inshaAllah we will strive to be. We have good shuyukh such as Sh. Haitham Al Haddad, Sh. Suhaib Hasan, Sh. Abu Hanifah etc. who call for the middle way and prefer knowledge over criticism. However, as you have illustrated, things can take a u-turn for the worst, and so I was wondering whether you would allow me to use the content of your memoirs for a booklet to distribute among brothers and sister’s. SP only really have two main mosque’s in the UK, one in Birmingham and one in the London borough of Brixton. We hope to coorect these brothers and sisters and show them (through the help of your articles) as to what harm they cause Muslims.

    May Allah reward you for your efforts and guide you always.


  155. *Warning this is a thread hijack..This is a thread hijack..*
    First off Leila..thank you for the disclaimer about being a “born” muslim. We are ALL born muslim and just to throw some insight on you(and others). Not all reverts were african american nor were all problems centered in the Philly/ Jerz area. The salafee sisters I know that were dogged out were Black, White, Pakistani, Bengali, Arab and so on and so forth. The brothers that dogged them out were Black, White, Pakistani, Bengali and Arab.
    I just heard that one of the closest Ex_Salafee Asian sisters to me has become an open lesbian living with her girlfriend and her kids. Que nice huh?

    I, personally, dont feel sorry for myself. With children I dont have that luxury. What I do get to feel is regret and pain and at the end of all that I get to keep it movin and do what I do best which is Holding it down for my family.Im sorry I can not and refuse to take any of the blame for marrying a man in a halal way. I cant apologize for believeing that Islam would be the base for my marriage(s) and for your information the brother(s) that I was married to presented themselves as better that they were for various reasons. Ill give an example.
    One caucasian brother I was married to created an elaborate world to prove to me and my wakil that he was suitable and a worthy suitor for my hand in marriage. He told me that he had bought me a house(yea I know a house indeed!) and he even drove me to the house to show me it! He claimed to have a meat business that consisted of selling meat out of an icebox(which was true) then he suddenly was pounding the street trying to get a job at Burger King with his shirt tucked into his jeans and his pants way below his ankle. Big beard and thobe? Yea right. Turned out that this brother lied his @$$ off in order to get with me. Why? Because he knew I wouldnt want his reality. Was that my fault? Nopes..but I was advised by the “born” muslim Iman at our masjid to stay married to him because he was able to house me(and his first wife who he claimed was his sister”nuff said*) in a 2 bedroom section 8 apartment. So you see “sis” I did my best but my best wasnt good enough and yea I hit the road running and got outta dodge!
    I guess I could have supported him like a good wife and waited till he got that burger flippin gig but with a felony(that I didnt know about) I didnt think that I could do that.
    I never settled for crap. I got crap. Theres a difference.
    So to answer your questions :–
    Why are we accepting marriages where the man hasnt got a job and does not want to support the family financially?
    If man lies then the man lies, Some sisters were railroaded into being married. I remember being told that it was haraam to refuse to marry a brother who proposed. It didnt work on me but it worked on others.
    why are we accepting to be second wives?
    Nothings wrong with plural marriage if the man can support this structure. For the most part he cant. I didnt agree to be a second wife. I was tricked into being a second wife(See caucasian brother above)
    Why are we getting married to men we know little of their upbringing and background?
    We do the best we can. I know desi sisters married to chronic alcoholics. You do the best you can.
    Why are we rushing to marriages just because he dresses islamically and has a beard and you yourself lack in knowledge and love for this deen?
    You get married in order to INCREASE in knowledge and insha Allah your obedience to a good husband will be your way to Jannah. This doesnt mean being used like a doormat but there is NOTHING better than taking care of and being a good wife to a man that deserves and is a good husband to you.
    What happened to compatibility and finding a husband who is going to be a role model for our children? Pimpin and Game playing is what happened to compatibility. Im every woman is what happened to a lot of sisters. Who was going to be honest and say that they still listened to 2pac when music was known to be haraam. Come on now.
    Why do we have such low expectations of men? Because we have low self esteem? I know LOADS of pakistani women who took a good ol beat down in exchange for being seen as the “wife”.
    You Said “. So next time you are choosing a husband please do take it more seriously than choosing a boyfriend for a date.”

    I’m Offended. My date choosing skills were pretty on point. I never got dogged out. Do you know how strange it felt to meet a brother at a sit-down who was screened by someone else and ask loads of mediocre questions with mediocre answers? I remember sitting down with sisters and making lists of good questions to ask brothers. I’m pretty sure there were groups of brothers doing the same thing. You asked about those things that you wanted to know. I dont know of anyone who took choosing a husband lightly. If anything its more a male trait to get married rapidly. DO you think that we were so easy as women that we were looking forward to meeting and marrying a brother we never ever dated? To have to endure that “first” night with a total stranger? I know brothers who divorced women after that initial night. Do you know why? Because the sister was physically different from what her jilbab suggested. Was that her fault? I suggest you restrict your advice and opinions to those things you know for a fact rather than what you think you know and with that…Peace Out!

  156. As far as being in a different “reality”… I don’t know how anyone got that impression, but I would venture to say that it was out of a skimpy reading of my comments or Umm Reem’s for that matter. So, let me lay it out for differences between NE America and the rest of America, esp. Houston:
    1) The marriage-divorce-marriage merry-go-around was limited to the NE area to the AA brothers. That is NOT an ethnic slur, that is the REALITY. For instance, Br. Gyasi is AA in Memphis, and the situation is not like that there. It is not because they were AA that the situation occured, but it was because that was the Philly-style that it occured. There is no racism here, because I love my AA brothers and sisters as much as anyone else. My dear friend, Hanif, an AA revert moved from Philly to Houston to ESCAPE. So, I AGREE that it was and IS a major problem up here (since I moved to NE now), but it is NOT a salafi thing, neither was it spread throughout the nation.
    2) As for the other fitnah, the IANA/QSS, etc… it affected ALL of us… whether we were in Bermuda or we were in Philly. I remember, as a MSA-UH webmaster, I posted a front-page news alert, that MSA-UH only follows the 3 categories of Tawheed, and that the 4th is a bidah. Hey, the KIBAAR said it… even though we forgot that we heard that the KIBAAR said it from those who became the source of the fitnah (SP). I remember Yasir Q. coming back to Houston preaching the same thing one year… and alhamdulilah Allah guided him quickly and removed him from the Madinah-failures, who studied little, but talked more.
    3) I think Br. Umar did not mean these posts to become fodder for the Sufis to tell us how it is that they caused the disintegration. Because, they simple didn’t. No matter how much they jump and scream, the people who were INSIDE and now OUTSIDE will tell you that it wasn’t the OUTSIDERS, but the INSIDERS who caused the hurt.
    4) It is TIME to move on. I am inviting people upon the Sunnah, to join a discussion to start the healing process. You can see that on my blog. So, all the brothers who used to call themselves salafis, and no longer do, but in their hearts know that the aqeedah and the manhaj was true (and not the label)… I invite you to talk, express, and discuss in a positive manner. I will commit to keep the discussion between OUR family of the people of Sunnah… other tangents, irrelevant discussions will be deleted/censored.

    Join the healing here

  157. So next time you are choosing a husband please do take it more seriously than choosing a boyfriend for a date…I also found that statement offensive and I am only pointing it out to you LEILA because I like to be informed when I say dumb stuff. I love to be enlightened and given the opportunity to learn. Alhumdiallah, maybe that is why I reverted.

  158. We need to identify the problem and that is importing Western “Pop Culture” into an Islamic framework. We all grew up looking up to Pop and Hollywood figures and when we came to Islam we needed to replace those icons in a way that was compatible for our Islamic lifestyle. So we filled Tupac’s shoes with Ali Timimi, Hamza Yusuf, etc.

    You hit it on the nose an Allah knows best

  159. Musa Richardson?? Man, I knew him when we were young in Pittsburgh (both in age and in Islam)…I haven’t heard about him or from him in over a decade; I left Pgh just when it was starting to go all-Salafi after Imam Mansur died. Anyone here who can spin me up on how he’s doing?

  160. Before I make some further comments on this issue, I would like to express a disagreement about what the brother Muhammad bin Muhammad from Hackney , U.K. wrote concerning the moderate Salafis do not ascribe themselves to this noble, word and termonology i.e. ascribing one who follows the Aqeedah and manhaj of the Salaf as being a Salafi. I would like to correct him and make it clear that the moderate Salafis do call themselves Salafis. But at the same time they do not use it as a label, as a badge like SPUBS, ATHARIYYA and TROID do. They make it clear that they are Salafis and only use this identification when needed and if it is not going to benefit people and cause people to turn away due to the steriotype that it has due to the harshness of SPUBS, TROID etc, then they use wisdom in when to use it and when not to use it. The moderate Salafis also make it clear that they are also not too soft and lenient. In th U.K. moderate Salafis who are not ashamed to call themselves Salafis due to the behaviour of those harsh ones of SPUBS, ATHARIYYAH and TROID. The real and true Salafis who are moderate are now based in Brixton Masjid. Brixton has nothing to do with SPUBS and their dawah of shiddah. I don’t know where muhammad bin muhammad got his info. In the U.K. the harsh Salafis who have no wisdom and are full of pride and arrogance are based in Birmingham (SPUBS). In Forest Gate, East London (Athariyyah). While the moderate Salafis are based in Whtechapel, East London (Masjid al-Hudaa), Luton (Masjid Ghuraba), Brixton (Masjid ibn Taymiyah and Green Lane Masjid (Birmingham). I think muhammad bin muhammad needs to clue himself up to the current situation of the Salafis off the U.K. (if you wish to talk further Email me on:

    Something I wish to add here is that any fitnah, trial that befalls upon us we should be patient, as it is a test from Allaah. It should not make us turn away from the sunnah and salafiyah nor turn us away from Islam in totality, Allaah forbid. If one does turn away it is only due to the lack of patients and due to not correctly purifying and educating oneself. Rather a person may have become a Muslim because it was a trend, like wise for many to be a Salafi or with the Salafis was a trend. Some attached to Salafis for an alterior motive such as; money, fame, marriage etc. But once the fitnah by those harsh Salafis arose, it blew that person away. So now we see them become non-practising or leave Salafiyah and enter the Ahlul-Bid’ah, or leave Islam all together, cos they could not hack it. As their Islam was solely built upon, whose off and whose on, jarh wa ta’deel. and also solely based on brother/sisterhood and friendship. So when friwndship broke they had no where to go. When marriages broke they had no where to go. So due to weakness and what has been mentioned, they turned away and became opponents to Salafiyah and to Islam itself.

    So the organisation and leadership structure of the Salafi Dawah in America was damaged and dented and many who were not firm fell. But the Salafi Dawah did not fall, its there as it is, Islam is there as it is but it may be weak at the moment. Islam and Salafiyah is not in need of us, but we are in need of it. The true people have been made known by this fitnah. The harsh ones have been made known and the soft ones have been made known, like wise the moderate Salafis, the true Salafis have been made known.
    So those of us who are moderate Salafis should not be ashamed to call ourselves Salafis. Do we feel ashamed to call ourselves Muslims due to the action of a few who kill innocent civilians and claim it is from Islam??? We still call ourselves Muslims. So we still call ourselves Salafis. But not as a label or a badge.
    Islam will prevail amongst all other religions. Likewise Salafi Dawah will prevail amongst all other groups/sects and parties.

  161. Salaam ‘Alaikum

    I have thoughts, and I’m going to keep them mostly to myself. However, I have to say that I think the lack of outcry over what happened to Ali Tamimi isn’t b/c all these Muslims are secretly happy about it b/c they’re all Salafi haters.

    I think it is a lack of awareness. I didn’t know about Isma’il Royer, for example, until last year when I read about it here. The same can be said for what happened to Imam Jamil a few years back in GA. A lot of Muslims said nothing, but I think it was b/c they simply didn’t know the case, didn’t know what happened, etc. I also think a lot of Muslims are scared to speak out, thinking, “If I write a letter protesting what happened to Fulan or at Guantanamo, then they’ll come after me.”

    As for getting over fear, we need to rely on Allah. As for getting the news out there, it needs to be done in a clear, informative, non-inflammatory way. Although, given the way our newspapers et al are split along ethnic lines, I don’t know how successful such an appeal would be. Hm.

  162. Salaam’ Alaikum

    One more thing, as to this specific-label burnout, the fact of the matter is that across minhaj, across different madhahib, across this group and that group, there are simply many, many people who experience plain ol’ Muslim burn out (or worse, Islam burn out). It’s right to say “It happens to them too” b/c it can happen to any of us. May Allah increase us ALL in ‘iman and taqwa.

  163. Assalamu’alaikum wa rahmatUllahi wa barakatuh.

    May Allah have mercy on the Muslim ummah.
    My noble brothers and sisters, I am glad that the salafis are waking up to the reality of our situation. As long as we realise that there are problems, then I am certain we can rectify them, and tawfiq is from Allah.
    I think we must all acknowledge some facts and humble ourselves before we can start any sort of reform. Therefore, the people of knowledge lower their heads because of ilm, whereas we raise it to the sky due to lack of ilm.
    For once I think we should admit that Allah is the one who controls our affairs and even in a situation which may seem to us to be evil or against us, may be of benefit. So, we start by taking lessons from the last 15 years, look at the lack of visions some of our brothers had and the destruction it has caused. We can keep going in circles or we can act by not making the same mistakes. A believer is not stung from the same hole twice.
    Yaa Muslim, realise that we are brothers one to another and we do not truly believe until we love for the other what we love for ourself. Yaa Muslim do not forget that a Muslim is the mirror of his brother. Yaa Muslim do no forget to make dua for those who came before you, asking Allah to forgive their short-comings.

    Finally I would like to remind everyone that let us not claim ‘Salafiyaah’ just for ourselves. There are hundreds of salafis in the cities and countries in which we live, it is not possible that we can have knowledge of everyone. Hence, I can safely say that there are salafis in every city in the UK, in every university, college, school, masjid and neighbourhood.

    Just like we have good and bad Muslims, we have good and bad salafis, let not this be our excuse to do nothing.
    Start doing things in your areas, produce tapes, CDs, leaflets and distribute it in your area. come let us all get active once again and change our areas to become a better place.
    If we fail to act, Allah will replace us with a better people. LET US ACT…

    Wassalamu’alaikum, please forgive me if I have said anything out of line.

    Abu Eesa

  164. One of the other causes that has led to the stagnation and destruction of the “movement” is the “beyond bounds” self-righteous attitide that many amongst the madakhila have and some amongst the the more “moderate” enity still have.

    Ibn Mas`ood, (Radiallaahu `anhu), said: “True knowledge is not measured in relationship to how much you memorize and then narrate, but rather, true knowledge is an expression of piety [protecting oneself from what Allaah prohibited and acting upon what He mandated].”Also, “Study and act upon what you learn.” [Related by Abu Na`eem]

    Therefore no matter how much one learns or claims to have learnt or intends to learn, if its not materialized it is useless – in fact its just a proof against oneself.

    Lets ask ourselves are these so-called “salafi communities” in the west a prime example to be followed by other Muslims…………I dont think so.

    So its about time that one humbles one-self and removes these empty claims and “slogans” of “salafiyah, salafiyah & salafiyah” and self-given titles to attribute oneself to the righteous salaf who are free from these corruptions.

    Allah (SWT) said:
    “So ascribe not purity to yourselves. He knows best him who fears Allâh and keep his duty to Him [i.e. those who are Al-Muttaqûn”](An-Najm 53:32)

    Is a “salafi” the one who lives comfortably in the West and when a trial stikes him in his comfort – he “burns out” or falls flat on the face in “depression, and “despair”?

    Is a “salafi” disoriented and feels “one has no one to turn to”?

    Lahawla Walaquwata Illah Billah.

    Rather we find Muslims in this Ummah who are faced by the entire Kuffar, who’s family and kin have been killed, whom have been imprisoned…….tortured, who have been stranded, abandoned by the entire world…………..But they remain still true to this deen, remaining steadfast and patient putting their trust in Allah(SWT)……………….this is the “Muwahhid”……………………….the true “salafi”.

    The solution to the current stagnation:

    1. A call to Hijrah (emigration) to Allaah by purifying Tawheed , and disavowal from Shirk and polytheism. Hijrah to His Messenger (Sall Allaahu ‘Alayhi wa Sallam) by purifying emulation of him.

    2. A call to manifesting Tawheed, by declaring the firmest knot of faith, publicizing the Millah (religion) of the two intimate friends of Allaah, Muhammad and Ibraaheem ( ‘Alayhimas-Salaam), manifesting friendship and alliance to Tawheed and its people, and declaring disavowal from Shirk and its people.

    3. A call to the actualization of Tawheed by waging Jihaad against the Tawaagheet , all of the Tawaagheet, with speech and spears, so as to free the slaves from the worship of slaves, to the worship of the Lord of the slaves, and to free them from the tyranny of the methodologies, laws, and religions to the justice and light of Islaam.

    4. A call to seeking Shar’ee knowledge from its pure source, destroying the idolatry of government scholars by discarding Taqleed (blind following) of the priests and monks who have corrupted the Religion, and deceived the Muslims…
    Has anyone corrupted the Religion, except the kings, And the evil priests and monks?

    5. A call to insight regarding current events, to make evident the way of the criminals, all the criminals, of all religions and sects. {Say, “This is my way; I invite to Allaah with insight, I and those who follow me. And exalted is Allaah; and I am not of those who associate others with Him.” } [Soorah Yoosuf v. 108]

    6. A call to thorough preparation, in all avenues, for Jihaad in Allaah’s Cause. Treading the path of fighting the Tawaagheet and their supporters, the Jews and Christians and their allies, to liberate the Muslims and their lands from the chains of their captivity and occupation.

    7. A call to join the caravan of the Taa’ifah al-Mansoorah (the Victorious Assembly) that is establishing the Religion of Allaah, not harmed by those who oppose it, nor by those who renounce it, until Allaah’s Order arrives (for the Last Hour).

    The shaykh, the Mujahid Abu Abdullah said in his April 2006 audio release:

    “Oh followers of Muhammad, peace be upon him, be patient and exhort to patience and stand your ground, for happy is he who stands to defend the banner of Tawheed, and happy is he who makes a shield out of himself and his chest as he defends the religion of Allah. So make certain that Allah sees you where He loves to see you. Allah says, “Truly Allah loves those who fight in His Cause in battle array, as if they were a solid cemented structure.” Al-Saff 71:4″

    and he said:

    “Oh Muslims, whoever is incapable of performing Jihad by himself shouldn’t be stingy with himself in performing Jihad with his wealth, pen and tongue, for this is a decisive war.”

    and he stated:

    “And know that this world is a place of trial and tribulation, and that Allah is testing you with these events: will you continue to defend His religion and Prophet, peace be upon him, or will you take a seat? “That those who died might die after a Clear Sign (had been given), and those who lived might live after a Clear Sign (had been given). And verily Allah is He Who hears and knows (all things).” Al-Anfaal 8:42″

  165. Typical Salafi-Jihadi stuff, where did you get that, off of the mission statement of Tibyan pubs? Face it, you brothers are just an opposite reaction to the Madakhilah and nothing more. Most of the ex-salafis around are former Tibyani types in one way or another. sitting in their rooms eating popcorn while watching beheading videos from al-Sahab. The salafi jihadis are a sub culture just like the Madakhilah are.

  166. As-salaamu-alikum,
    May Allah reward brother umar for this article and may it become a source of healing for those like me hurt in the past events that happened. The thing I want to say is I am surprised that people failed to mention ,what I feel was the biggest source of fitnah, the biggest reason why some muslims can’t change the harshness in their hearts that came from kufr, and can’t leave off the social problems they had before Islam. To me I recognized the problem right when the fitnah started and I feel I was right. If I were to ask you all what do/did we call a group of muslims that say “we don’t need the sunnah we just need the Quran” We will/would all agree whoever says this is in a very dangerous, deviant group called the “quraneeoon” because they are not following the the statement of Allah what is translated as SAY ” IF YOU LOVE ALLAH , THEN FOLLOW ME, ALLAH WILL LOVE YOU AND FORGIVE YOU YOUR SINS. AND ALLAH IS OFT-FORGIVING, MOST MERCIFUL.(3-31). But the problem is the brothers fell into alother group the “sunneoon” Meaning they totally abandend the Quran! Look at the conferences and tapes and talks during that time period. The brothers had no real concern for the Quran other than a short tafser class here and there. But brothers were’nt striving to recite the book, understand the language of the book, seek the meanings of the book THAT IS A HEALING FOR THE HART! So I advise the brothers who are sad, hooked on porn, fell into social seclusion or whatever the problem is, if you “dedicate ” time to really learn the Quran and it’s recitation along with the sunnah it will heal your heart. But brothers don’t want to struggle with getting the arabic tongue so ‘tajweed’ will be made easy. The don’t want to look up every word in the Quran with a dictionary so they won’t have to spend another ramadan standing behind the imam not getting the full spiritual message. Me and my family came back from overseas 8 months ago and for the first time I really appreciate and get a spiritual benefit from the book of Allah. So I know that all the problems stemed from problems of the heart that never got healed and if brothers will give the Quran it’s right it will be sufficient to solve the problems that don’t go away and maybe we can rebuild our communities but this time with out all the foolishness because the hearts will be healed just like mine is being healed.

  167. Sister Myopic,


    Seriously, you really need to start your own blog. I think it would help a lot of sisters who’ve gone through the same things you’ve gone through and could really benefit from your writings.

    I’m an Asian sister who was burnt just like you and so many others sisters were. After hearing about all these horror stories, I’ve stopped feeling sorry for myself and have decided to focus my attention on my kids instead of rushing out to find another man to screw up my life.

  168. Salaam alaikum wa rahmatullah
    Excellent article. May Allah bless you and guide you Umar.

    I had heard from some about the reversion of muslims back to kufar, but didn’t know it was this bad. The problem is not individuals but it is the society. Hence, on of the most important lessons from the Prophet Muhammed (SWAS) is his effort to establish a islamic base/state . A society free of Fitnah.
    Does it not say in the Quran that ‘ Fitnah is greater than killing’ and did not the Prophet (SWAS) say (paraphrased) the at the end of time, it would be best for a muslim to take his sheep heard and live in the mountains to stay away from fitnah. Ofcoarse, the fitnah at the time of ad-Dajjal will be at its peak. But everything happing today in the world is leading up to it. Muslims and specially new converts need to understand that Islam is a Deen and not a religion. You cannot discount that effect western (or for that matter eastern ) society has on the way we live Islam. You cannot grow long beards and wear thobs and accept that the injustice,promiscuity, drugs etc. all surrounding you, will not seep into you on day ( except for whom ALLAH protects) or alure you back to your old ways. Look, before I sound unrealistic to you all, THE only realistic solution to the problems of muslims is estabilishing an islamic state. That was the way of the Salaf. And even today the strivers are striving for it with all their wealth and lives. May ALLAH help them with a great help and grant them victory. And may ALLAH give strength to our oppressed sisters so that they can raise up the best of this Ummah.

    Quran Surah Nisa, Verse – 97
    Surely (as for) those whom the angels cause to die while they are unjust to their souls, they shall say: In what state were you? They shall say: We were weak in the earth. They shall say: Was not Allah’s earth spacious, so that you should have migrated therein? So these it is whose abode is hell, and it is an evil resort

    Salaam alaikum wa rahmatullah

  169. growyourbeard, I understand what you are saying. Not only did they abandon the Quran, but they abandoned the sunnah as well. Quran and authentic hadeeth were replaced with unverifable athaars. Memorization of the Quran was replaced with memorizing Usool Thalatha. I would actually have people tell me how it was more important to memorize Usool Thalatha, because we would be questioned on it in our graves! As if memorizing a CD (yes a marketed CD) would ensure that you would answer correctly, espcially considering they were memorising words with no meaning because they did not know Arabic. The whole thing was just a little too pretentious for me.

    I’m also a little dismayed with the people who are confessing all of their sins and blaming it on the fall of the dawah or the ill treatment they receive…over manhaj issues!!!

    Is this what we do everytime Allah throws a test our way? I’m hurt, bitter, it what you want. But I’ll be dayum if I let them steal my deen. They are not worth me going to the hell-fire over. All scores will be settled. Allah is Just and it does make me give a big sunnah smile (see molars) when I think about all the hasanat I may get insha’Allah and since I am no Angel I will have some sayeeaat that I need to dump on some deserving. soul.

    Don’t get me started…

  170. Abu Moosaa, based on the websites, carrying refutations of Awdah, of x & of y… your organization seems no different from who you are slamming (SPUBS/TROID). May Allah help you see what is going on here.

  171. Imam Ibnul Qayyim

    There are ten useless matters:

    Knowledge that is not acted on
    The deed that has neither sincerity nor is based on following the righteous examples of others
    Money that is hoarded, as the owner neither enjoys it during this life nor obtains any reward for it in the Hereafter
    The heart that is empty of love and longing for Allah, and of seeking closeness to Him
    A body that does not obey and serve Allah
    Loving Allah without following His orders or seeking His pleasure
    Time that is not spent in expiating sins or seizing opportunities to do good
    A mind that thinks about useless matters
    Serving those who do not bring you close to Allah, nor benefit you in your life
    Hoping and fearing whoever is under the authority of Allah and in His hand; while he cannot bring any benefit or harm to himself, nor death, nor life; nor can he resurrect himself.
    However the greater of these matters are wasting the heart and wasting time. Wasting the heart is done by preferring this worldly life over the Hereafter, and wasting time is done by having incessant hope. Destruction occurs by following one’s desires and having incessant hope, while all goodness is found in following the right path and preparing oneself to meet Allah.

    How strange it is that when a servant of Allah has a [worldly] problem, he seeks help of Allah, but he never asks Allah to cure his heart before it dies of ignorance, neglect, fulfilling one’s desires and being involved in innovations. Indeed, when the heart dies, he will never feel the significance or impact of his sins.

  172. A very popular Muslim scholar (Maulana Yusuf Ludhyanwi – Shaheed) from Pakistan wrote a very good book in urdu titled, “The differences in the Ummah and the Straight Path”. He addressed the various “major” Islamic groups like we have in the US. When asked about who that one guided sect in Islam will be the prophet (sallahu alayhi wa sallam) replied (more or less), “maa-ana alyhi wa ashaabi.” That is, whoever looks to the companions (sahababa) and their ways will be amongst the saved group. This hadith does not mention Tablighis, Salafi’s…but any Muslim. This fundamental fact was largely ignored. As “Growyourbeard” mentioned the healing of the heart starts with the recitation of the Quran.

    I always look back when I was growing in Nigeria. The first time I came across a Salafi Imam I became totally disenchanted with the ‘movement’. I was asked as to why I tied my hands below the navel. Well with no answer, I was branded a “blind follower” and from the people of innovation. It was very shocking and preturbing as this happened to me. The Salafi Imam played down the role of Pakistani and Nigerian Ulema…in fact they weren’t even guided according to their understanding. Finally, I went to Pakistan and asked an Alim in Karachi about the various issues, but he asked me not to bother with all this…but then I explained to him that I was coming from the US and this is a hot issue. He told me to go back and ask every Salafi Imaam a simple question, “Where did Imaam Bukhari tie his hands during prayers?” Because he did not mention a single hadith in his magnum opus Bukharee-Shareef. Well as it turns out there was a lot of hype, and misinformation coming from the Salafi’s but it was certified as hevenly. So, I asked simple questions like is Shiekh Albanee masoom, and can not make mistakes? That got people roused as how I dare to ask and question; yet Imaam Malik and all the great scholars have said we are open to criticism. Anyway, this was the ice breaker for me…and I just decided not to focus on the Salafi movement as it has undoubtly hurt many good hearted innocent Muslims.

  173. as-Salâm ‘alaikum wa rahmatullah,

    Abu Moosaa, based on the websites, carrying refutations of Awdah, of x & of y… your organization seems no different from who you are slamming (SPUBS/TROID). May Allah help you see what is going on here.

    So because they refute the likes of Salmân al-‘Awdah, Safar al-Hawâlî and others, they’re automatically lumped in the same bunch as SPUBS, TROID, et. al. … ? Mashâ’allah.

    May Allah guide you and the rest of us to the truth in all affairs.

  174. In case you havent noticed Rashid, most of the people that are commenting here are either what you would probably call Sururis, or they are nominal Madkhalis that didnt get into the who bashing game. Perhaps you didnt notice the respect that Umar and others have for Shaikh Ali al-Tamimi. That would make Umar a Qutubi according to your special heresiological terminologies.

  175. Sister Myopic,

    May Allah az-Zawjal reward you immensely for your patience in this dunya and akhira and other dear sisters of mine.

    It is indeed a shame for us, Muslims, to let our sisters be abused by the very hands of Muslim brothers and a lesson for those brothers who don’t advice their fellow Muslim brothers for doing so.

    I must say, though, that this was/is not only a salafee problem, ‘bad husbands’ are all around our ummah. However it hurts more when it comes from ‘salafee’ brothers who claim to adhere to ‘sunnah’ and invite people to the way of our beloved Prophet while neglecting the very element of His (saw) teachings–“fear Allah with regards to your womenfolk”

    But sister do remember, that what happened to you was from the Decree of Allah, and you had the ability to tolerate it that is why it was Decreed to you. Allah promised in the Qur’an that He doesn’t over burden a soul. And whose promise can be more true then Allah az-Zawjal’s.
    And in Allah’s infinite Justice, you will be compensated with better, and inshaAllah rewarded in a way that your past will seem very trivial to you.

    If you don’t mind, can you please email me. I want to share something with you.

  176. as-Salâm ‘alaikum wa rahmatullah “Former Salafi”,

    In case you havent noticed Rashid, most of the people that are commenting here are either what you would probably call Sururis, or they are nominal Madkhalis that didnt get into the who bashing game. Perhaps you didnt notice the respect that Umar and others have for Shaikh Ali al-Tamimi. That would make Umar a Qutubi according to your special heresiological terminologies.

    «O those who accepted faith, avoid much of the speculation. Surely some of the speculation is a sin» (49:12).

    I have noticed many things from both brother Umar Lee and those who have been commenting to his articles. Whether those things have been signs of Surūrism, or Qutbism, or nominal “Madkhalism”, or any other –ism you want to mention or come up with, I have not given any indication of in any of my comments. Nor have I passed judgement on anyone who has commented on here (including brother Umar) of being Salafî or non-Salafî. So your comment to me is completely irrelevant to the point I made concerning Amad’s statement: those groups/masâjid/brothers/sisters associated with those sites that brother Aboo Moosaa posted links to being automatically lumped together with SPUBS, TROID, etc., for merely refuting some personalities beloved to some of those who have posted here.

  177. So, akhi Rasheed, what is this “new, different” group’s claim to fame? Pls tell us what makes them different from SPUBs? IS it because they criticize less scholars? OR that they have a slightly bigger circle of ‘acceptable’, ‘on the haqq’ shayookh? Or are they just kinder and gentler in doing what Spubs/co have been doing? Since the only difference mentioned is that “The real and true Salafis who are moderate are now based in Brixton Masjid. Brixton has nothing to do with SPUBS and their dawah of shiddah.”And while we are on the same point, does Spubs consider this group to be deviant and vice-versa?

    Do you really believe, akhi Rasheed, that right now is the time to attack Awdah/Hawali, that there aren’t greater priorities in our dawah? Do you honestly think this is what should define us?

    Perhaps this ignorant layman is wrong… but this little ‘saved’ group is going down the same road that others before went and are being discussed right on this blog, as the cause for disunity. So, learn before repeating the same mistakes… wallahualam.

  178. You know what’s funny is that in Saudi, you do not find the Shayookh warning the general public about different da’ees and scholars. They may warn about different deviant concepts but they leave out all the finger pointing. I’ve noticed that some feel as though this calling people out was imported/exported from KSA. I don’t feel that way, because this is something that the commoner in KSA would be oblivious of. If you go into the Islamic bookstores the most popular tapes are by the Shayookh/Duat that have been warned about in the west. They are reviving the deen here and you will find many of the once misguided shabaab now practicing Islam after hearing these tapes. If the Ulema have a problem with the likes of Munajid/Safar/Salman et al, than it is unknown amongst the layman and that is how it should have been in the West.

  179. as-Salâm ‘alaikum wa rahmatullah brother Amad,

    … does Spubs consider this group to be deviant and vice-versa?

    If my memory serves me correctly, the brothers at Brixton were chastised and warned against by SPUBS et al. during the fitnah that took place revolving around Shaikh Abul-Hasan al-Ma’ribî. As for your previous questions to this one, if those brothers affiliated with those groups and organisations are reading this blog and following the comments being posted, they can explain for themselves what makes them so different. My point was does these refutations of specific individuals—or even any refutations, in general—automatically mean that they are of the same ilk as SPUBS et. al., because by your comment, it seems that you believe that they do.

    Do you really believe, akhi Rasheed, that right now is the time to attack Awdah/Hawali, that there aren’t greater priorities in our dawah? Do you honestly think this is what should define us?

    Although these are good questions, without doubt, they are irrelevant to the my point behind my comment.

    Warning against mistakes of others does have its place in the Salafî da’wah, but taking an objective look at the CalltoIslam and SalafiManhaj sites in particular (only because I’m familiar with these two sites of the three mentioned) and browsing through their collection of articles and audio files, you’ll find that they deal with and address a wide variety of topics and issues. You will find that warning against the mistakes of Safar, Salmân, et. al. is not the only—or even the main—priority of their da’wah.

    As for what I honestly think should define us, then that’s simple: a balanced approach to all matters in life and in religion. That includes giving priority to spreading the da’wah—calling to Allah’s tawhîd and the following of His messenger’s sunnah—to Muslims and non-Muslims alike and teaching people the basics in order to give them a good foundation on which to build their religion upon (which is the essence of Shaikh al-Albânî’s call to at-Tasfiyah wat-Tarbiyah). We should also be defined by moderation. Just as brother Aboo Moosaa mentioned, that entails staying in between the two extremes of going overboard and being too lax and lenient, and it means loving things in moderation and hating them in moderation as well.

  180. Dear Pakiguy,
    It’s been said in the comments of this page, that we shouldn’t judge Salafiyya by what some Salafis say/do.
    Of course Sheikh Al-Albani was not ma’soom, nor was Imam Al-Bukhari. And I do agree with you, even though you didn’t say it but I think it’s a notion you might have, some Salafis do act as if the Sheikh or other Sheikhs they follow were masoomeen.
    But see, you ask me how Imam Al-Bukhari did it, I ask how the Prophet -pbuh- did it.
    It’s as simple as that. Truth is not known by its people, people are known by the Truth (that they hold on to).

  181. Sister Umm Adam, I couldn’t have said it better. JazakiAllah khair.

    I don’t know how someone may say that warning against others mistakes has its place in salafi da’wah (unless it is against a deviant sect).
    If we were to do that then where would we draw a line…will we keep doing this until we start pin pointing mistakes of our elite shayook like Sh. Bin Baz, Sh. Uthaimeen and Sh. Albaani (rahimuhullah).

    Or even worse, we can find mistakes among our Companions (may Allah be pleased with all of them) as well…so where do we stop?!

    Believe me, I have met people who would speak loosely about some of the sahabas claiming they have to warn against their mistakes (and NO they were not shi’ees).

    Our Ummah is bleeding and we, the people of ‘sunnah’, are still debating over Sh. Salman’s and Sh.Safar’s mistakes!

    From the manners of salaf, I learned that when ‘fitnah’ comes, they used to increase their worship and confine themselves pondering upon their OWN mistakes.

    When a man asked the Prophet (saw) about ‘nijaah’, He said, “Confining yourself to your homes, HOLDING your tongues, and crying over YOUR mistakes.”

    Aren’t we doing just the opposite…letting our tongues lose, and crying over OTHERS mistakes…la hawla wala quwatta illa billah.

    To be quite honest, as soon as I notice a website criticizing one of the students of knowledge from Ahl-us-Sunnah, I don’t go there again. Some sisters asked me about some of those websites, and my advice to them was, ‘don’t go there, don’t even read their articles to be on the safe side.’
    wAllahu ta’ala ‘alam

  182. as-Salâm ‘alaikum wa rahmatullah sister Umm Reem,

    I don’t know how someone may say that warning against others mistakes has its place in salafi da’wah (unless it is against a deviant sect).

    Warning against mistakes does have its place in the da’wah. The truth must always be spoken and falsehoods corrected. No one is infallible, and no one is above being corrected.

    It’s funny that Shaikh Abul-Hasan was criticised for forwarding some principles of Ahl as-Sunnah, which were also forwarded by the likes of Shaikhs ‘Ubaid al-Jâbirî and ‘Abdul-Muhsin al-‘Abbâd; one such principle being that we (Ahl as-Sunnah) correct the mistake but do not destroy the personality—especially if they’re from Ahl as-Sunnah as well. And to paraphrase Shaikh ‘Ubaid al-Jâbirî, if the person is (clearly) from Ahl al-Bid’ah, then we correct the mistake and destroy the personality without any reservations. Of course, attacking the personality will depend on the benefits and harms that go along with it, and this is for the scholar who is doing the correcting to assess.

    You find many, many examples of this throughout the books of the scholars. One example is where Ibn Qayyim al-Jawziyyah would correct mistakes made by his shaikh, Ibn Taimiyyah. You’ll even find this in some of the narrations transmitted from the Companions, where they would correct the mistakes made by other Companions and reject their statements.

    Of course, there’s a proper way and an improper way to go about doing this. Some do it properly, while others, sadly, take it way too far.

  183. To Myopic Vison

    In majority of muslim countries people dont put emphasis on who is “on it” or “off it”, who is salafi and who isnt. That is why i mentioned that i am a born muslim and not affected by salafiyah as someone who is a convert living in the West. I am not putting the blame on african americans or carribeans. But some problems affect them more than say asians or arabs. You dont need to give an example of an Asian woman who became lesbian, its as rare as some sheikh turning gay, it doesnt proof anything.

    If a brother presents himself to you as better than he actually is, the onus is on you to do the research.

    “He told me that he had bought me a house(yea I know a house indeed!) and he even drove me to the house to show me it.”

    Yes well what happened to the legal ownership deed? Do you beleive everything people TELL you?
    Like i said in my previous comment is it we are naive or not taking marriage seriously. I dont know.

    You keep mentioning the brother “CLAIMED” this and that, but getting to know one member of his family, close friend, questioning the people in the community or the sister that is his wife would have proved to you that he doesnt own a business and he has a first wife. I dont know the full facts of your situation but it doesnt come across as you have done your best to know his background.

    Being an alcoholic is not an easy thing to hide, either the sisters didnt know him very well before getting married, overlooked the issue in the hope he will change or he became alcoholic after the marriage.

    Compatibility is not just restricted to deen, but having in common other things you both enjoy togather. Domestic violence is problem everywhere, in many cases its inevitable regardless of how well you know him.

    I am not judging all women but if a sister thinks that scribbling questions in a paper to ask a potential husband is the way to get to know him, then she is taking marriage as lightly as finding a boyfriend or is simply misguided, naive and doesnt know better. And for you sis stop being in denial about doing “your best” or that you have been “tricked”. I am sure you could have avoided that marriage with a little more care and that is what you should be helping other sisters with.

  184. Leila, knock it off. I was born in a Muslim family overseas, and understand the idea that most Muslims do not exclusively identify as Salafi or non-Salafi. However, your picking on Myopic Vision is offensive and uncalled for, such stuff can happen to any one. You should just count yourself lucky. It is similar to people blaming you for what is happening in your country, or any other blame the victim mentality. These sort of comments and their emotional replies, and issues of West vs. East, US vs. Asiatic, AA vs. other, Salafi vs. madhabi are just the sort of thing that keeps all our energy drained and unable to focus on anything postive. To be fair I have seen a lot of it from people of different backgrounds over here.

  185. Br. Abu Moosa,

    In order to clarify myself, when I referred to the term ‘salafi’ and its usage, my point was that we do not necessarily wear it on our sleeves. As well as the salafi minhaj being one were we adhere to the Qur’an and sunnah as understood by the salaf, there a people who have made salafiyyah a hizb. In this respect, we are not hizbee’s and the term salafi is used as a clarification in order to distinguish ourselves from the sufi’s, ikhwani’s etc.

    In regards to Brixton mosque, I apologise for the lack of clarity. What I meant was many people who would be considered ‘locals’ have a SPUBS mentality. I agree that we should not be too lenient, however, the extremes to which people may go is also incorrect. The jamaa’ah of Brixton mosque have bad manners, akhlaaq as well as this perpetuated need to to perform jarh wat ta’deel upon every individual who may be passing through. I do believe when someone is doing wrong you may correct them, however, their is always a method. Words such as ‘that’s stupid’ and ‘that’s a load of rubbish’ is not from the sunnah nor has any semblence of normal courtesy. Additionally, I agree, I may have shortcomings in knowledge about which mosque is ‘in’ or ‘out’ (though I believe you missed out a few in London), but your method of correcting me – “I think muhammad bin muhammad needs to clue himself up” kinda proves my point.

    Please forgive me if I have offended you.
    Jazakallahu khair


  186. i ll say it out loud salafis have MAJOR issues to deal with, even though i consider myself salafi,,

    interesting stuff being said,,
    but i am almost out of breath when it comes to such issue.

  187. qawuzki, i was responding to Myopic Vison’s reply to my initial comment, i am not “picking on her” as you put it. My point is simple, we should make great effort to get to know potential spouses and that applies to any woman out there.

  188. FAO muhammad ibn Muhammad

    The mosque in brixton is not SP, i think you mean masjid us sunnah, hounslow!

    please get the facts right inshallaah

  189. The mosque in brixton is not SP, i think you mean masjid us sunnah, hounslow! please do not tartnish everyone with the same brush, because you have met some brothers at brixton with bad manners, you are saying the whole jamaaah is like that, that is similar to the famous claim all salafis have bad manners!


  190. wa alaikum assalam wa rahmatullahi wa barakatuhu, brother Rasheed:

    Yes, mistakes should be corrected. But as you said, there is a ‘proper’ way, time and place and a need, and perhaps and Allah knows best, that ‘need’ has to be judged whether it will create a bigger fitnah or not .

    How many times do we find Ibn Qiyyam’s students openly criticizing & condemning Ibn Taymiyyah for his mistakes, or for that matter, how many salaf of the past had similar ‘accusations’ taken place as what is happening on Spubs/Troid/Salafitalk/ Salafi-fulan-fulan etc. etc. etc.

    Sahaba, too, differed and had disagreements, rejections and corrections, but all that never went beyond their tongues.

    But over here, the so-called ‘method of correction’ went way beyond tongues, beyond hearts, beyond communities, families even went beyond considering each other Muslims anymore…iyyadhobillah.

    In any case, I don’t want to say anything more on this topic, keeping one advice in mind, inshaAllah and this advice is for my ownself first and then for everyone else here:

    Prophet of Allah (saw) said, “I guarantee a house in the outskirts of Paradise to the one who forsakes argument even when he is in the right.” (Abu Dawood)

    ** I’m sure we all would want to have that house :)

  191. The Salafiyah Dawah in the U.K.

    There are 3 types of Salafis in general, whether we like it or not. According to my observations, atleast. The harsh and severe ones (SPUBS in Birmingham, Athariyyah in Forest Hate East London, As-Sunnah in Hounslow, Bradford and Cardiff who are bent upon this mentality, yet claim Salafiyah. The tooooo Soft and lenient ones are in Muntada and At-Tawheed. And the moderate Salafis ( the balanaced Salafis) are in Brixton, Whitechapel, Luton and Green Lane.

    With the moderate Salafis the english speakers are Muhammad al Jibaly (America) Bilal Philips (Qatar), Abu Usamah (Birmingham) Abu Imran (Leichester) , Abu Yahyaa (Leicester) Abu Shu’aib (Hye Wycomb) and others.

    With the harsh Salafis;
    Abu khadijah, Hasan as-somali, amjad rafiq and dawood burbank.

    with the soft Salafis;
    Ehsan Abdullaah, Usamah Hasan, Abu Muntasir, Abu Aliyah.
    Allaahu alam.



  192. It is near impossible to be objective in these things brother, I would say that in general, the Salafis are three catagories:
    1. The Madakhilah-which would include the ones you call extreme and moderate
    2. The Sahwis-which you describe as being way too soft. They would also be called Qutubis/Sururis by others
    3. The Takfiri Salafis-which include people like Abu Izzadin, Faisal, et al.

    I would opine that it is the Sahwis that are the real moderate Salafis around. Both the Madakhilah and Takfiris are upon extremes.

  193. Sister Leila….First I want you to know that this reply isnt an attempt to rebut your points or thoughts or opinions. On the contrary I respect what you say and your opinions. Even when they are baseless in foundation and ridiculous in execution.Its just to clarify a few of your points.

    Tayyib.First off when I got married.The emphasis wasnt on who was on or off it. Rather what kind of man was sitting in front of me and trying my level best to ensure that he was a good brother. There are scores of sisters that I know who did the same thing.In fact I personally know an Emritee sister who was married to a fairly well known arab scholar in Madinah who did her level best and ended up divorced after a year. Was that her fault? People always present the best side to them and their friends will lie. The caucasian brother gave me 5 references. All supported him. I guess the only sure way to know a person is to get a Private Investigator to check him out and if we are at those times where we need to run a criminal background check on a muslim then Im out of the game indeed!

    I did have to place the lesbian sister in front ot your eyes because you claimed to see problems only in those black cultures. You know what you meant. I know what you meant. Man up(Or in your case Woman Up) and be real. You meant that black people have issues. Thats true tho. Black people do have issues but so do asians and arabs and so on and so forth. You cant try to say well we dont have that problem. The immigrant muslim community in the US for the most part are among the most Money hungry people that I have seen in my life. Im so tired of walking into a bodega and looking screw eyed at an arab or asian brother selling pork and liquor.Im so happy to see “selliing business ” signs in my area of NYC knowing that the greedy immigrant muslims cant make a buck off of liqor and pork any more.(I’m just saying…)

    Im sorry but Im human. I believe what I see and hear. Like I said if I have to look at a legal ownership document then Im throwing my hands up. For the record he said that the house was in the process of being bought. The sister that was his wife said that she was his SISTER. His blood sister. For all I know she was. Allahu Alim. I cant be held accountable for the lies that I was told but trust me when I knew he had fabricated the entire life..I broke out(Ill write about that on my blog cause that was funny looking back..)

    Leila…I dont feel sorry for myself. It was ALL a learning curve. I dont feel that these experiences contributed to my “falling off” alone but they didnt help and no I didnt fall off into the club. I just went into my own “space”.Anyways thanks to all the sisters for their sweet words. I have my OWN blog so please feel free to visit and comment as you wish .

  194. I believe here it should also be differentiated into two:

    1. Abu Qatadah, Abu Basir, Abu Hamza and others,
    2. Faisal and the followers of Omar Bakri

    I think we should be carefull in “generalising” as in all attempts of “labelling” – although yes – Faisal and the followers of Omar Bakri have “takfiri” issues. But I believe the others (group nuymber 1) are the “balanced salafis” – And Allah Knows Best.

    I think we should remeber that labels of “takfiri”, “extremists” & “khawarij” were also thrown in the past at the true adherents of the path of the salaf:

    Imām ‘Abdur-Rahmān Ibn Hasan said:

    “So whenever we say, “None should be worshipped except Allāh, none should be called upon except Allāh, absolute hope and trust should not be placed in anyone except Allāh” and similar things for all the various types of ‘Ibādah which is not meant for anyone except Allāh Alone; and when we say that whosoever directs ‘Ibādah to other than Allāh, then he is a kāfir and mushrik- they come and shout to us “You are upon bid’ah, you have made Takfīr upon the Ummah of Muhammad, you are Khawārij, you are innovators.” (“Ad-Durar As-Saniyyah” (11/448-449).)

    Imām ‘Abdul-Latīf Ibn ‘Abdir-Rahmān said:

    “And indeed many mushrikīn in this era have erred- they assume that those who do Takfīr upon people who pronounce the Two Testimonies (Shahādatayn), they assume that such people are Khawārij – But this is not the truth. Rather, pronouncing the Two Testimonies is not a barrier from making Takfīr upon someone- it is only a barrier from the one who realizes its meaning, and acts upon its requisites, and purifies all his ‘Ibādah for Allāh Alone, and does not commit any shirk with Allāh- so the Two Testimonies only benefit such a person.” (“Ad-Durar As-Saniyyah” (12/263))

    Imām ‘Abdullāh Ibn Muhammad Ibn ‘Abdil-Wahhāb said,

    “And as for those who fabricate lies against us in order to hide the Truth, and disguise the Truth as falsehood, by claiming that we unrestrictedly make Takfīr of all people in this era, and also of everyone else after the 6th century, except those who follow us; and that we don’t accept the pledge of anyone until they admit that they were mushrikīn, and that their parents died upon shirk… These claims have no faces [truth]- rather, these are all like superstitions… And our answer to these allegations is:

    “Glory be to You (O Allāh)! This is a great lie!” (An-Nūr: 16)

    So whosoever narrates such regarding us, or attributes these statements to us, then he has indeed fabricated deceptions . But whosoever witnesses our situation, and attends our gatherings, and realizes that which is with us- then he will definitely know that everything which they have fabricated against us, is the propaganda of the enemies of the Dīn and the brothers of the Shayātīn , in order to make mankind run away from obedience of Allāh, run away from sincerity for Allāh, run away from singling out Allāh with ‘Ibādah, and to fall into the various types of shirk – that which Allāh has announced that He shall not forgive, but will forgive everything other than it. And it is our belief that those who perpetrate the various types of major sins, like murdering a Muslim without right, committing adultery, taking usury, drinking intoxicants- and even if they do these things multiple times, we believe that the perpetrator is not expelled from the fold of Islām, nor will he be in the Abode of Retribution (Hell) for eternity- that is of course, with the condition that he dies as a Muwahhid who singled out Allāh with all types of ‘Ibādah (not committing shirk in any type).” (“Al-Hadyah As-Saniyyah” (40). A point to ponder over for those who make shirk in Tahākum and Rukū’ and Tā’ah to the Tāghūt.)

    “As for their lies and fabrications, like their claim that we make Takfīr of everyone, and make Hijrah to us an obligation even if someone is able to openly manifest his Dīn [through Barā’ah and Hostility and Hatred], and that we declare anyone who does not fight against the mushrikīn to be kāfir – and besides these fabrications there are countless folds of the same thing. And all these are deceptions and fabrications, only to block people from the Dīn of Allāh and His Messenger.” (“Majmū’ Mu’allafāt Ash-Shaykh” (3/11))

    The Imām also said,
    “And as for the saying that we make Takfīr of the general masses (of Muslims), then that is from the fabricated propaganda of the enemies of Allāh, those who want to halt mankind from entering into Islām. And we say:

    “Glory be to You (O Allāh)! This is a great lie!” (An-Nūr: 16), ”

    (“Majmū’ Mu’allafāt Ash-Shaykh” 5/100)

  195. OMG, I need a chart to keep up with the categorization of salafis here.. it’s harder than Usool-al-fiqh charts! :) Are there any sub-categories in the ‘balanced’ ones? Not to mention that I find the statements of this “balanced group” quite self-aggrandizing.

  196. Pingback: Indigo Jo Blogs
  197. Asalamualakum Ya Akhee Umar

    Jazakhallah Khayran for your brilliant article. May Allah give you and your community patience. InshaAllah Allah will rise the Dawah back again. Have Sabr but dont lose hope as a Muslim is always optimistic. May Allah guide us All to the straight path.

    Your Brother from Bradford UK
    Abu Abdul Wahhaab

  198. I hesitated posting a comment because I knew it would be a long response considering the various issues you presented that must be addressed. I also know some will only read half of it and then make baseless comments based on that but after reading some of the responses to this BLOG I think I should respond. Firstly, I must say Umar Lee, I was with you until you began to align yourself with certain groups and individuals.. Had you remained neutral it would have been better, more acceptable, and far less abstract. That being the case, I can understand somewhat how and why you feel the way you do. Let me start by saying that the title, “The rise and fall of the Salafee dawah in the US” is in my opinion incorrect. I believe it should be called “The rise and fall of Extremist Elements Amongst the Salafee Dawah in the US” and I will explain why in a minute. Salafiyyah is Islaam and when we say that the Salafee Dawah has fallen then you are saying that authentic Islaam has fallen and we know that is unquestionably false. Not only that, but you have given rise to the enemies of the methodology of the Salaf that are no doubt reading and rejoicing in your posts.

    Another important point that should be mentioned is that anyone who refers to Salafiyyah as a “movement” has in essence exposed himself and his level of understanding of what exactly Salafiyyah is and ultimately is. The peace activists, flower child wannabes, black revolutionaries and political rally pilgrims who entered into Islaam would definitely consider it a movement as they came from that sort of a background and have failed to wipe their hands free of that partisan mentality. Unfortunately this mentality existed and remains to exists within a vast majority of converts who were never given the proper tools to leave that baggage behind. What we’ve failed to adequately comprehend is that Allaah protects His religion from all evil – whether foreign or inherited – and ultimately the ranks must and will be purified. The only cure for such a problem is in fact Islaam practiced in its proper manner – Salafiyyah. So yes, that “movement” as you understood it fell. Every movement comes and goes hence the word “movement.” But Islaam and specifically its proper understanding – Salafiyyah has been here and shall remain here when we are long gone.

    Now one may say, “But we thought Salafiyyah was the answer and yet it provided none.” If that is the case then did you really learn Salafiyyah? As we look at the 90’s and early 2000’s we can say without a doubt that some of the tarbiyyah was flawed. Many of the western du’aat certainly did not focus on what we needed as converts and that was Tawheed and purification of the soul. This purification of the soul and developing a relationship with Allaah through proper understanding and implementation of Tawheed is the foundation or core that must exist before anything can be built. Not only should this have been the focus but we should have been prepared for the real world by being encouraged to get educated. Unfortunately, much of the focus of the 90’s and early 2000’s centered on the things that either mangled the foundation or diverted us from it all together. It was this type of tarbiyyah that led to the fitan that we witnessed over the last few years amongst the Salafees. It is important to also note that without the aforementioned foundation all individuals and groups crumble and not just Salafees. Because those who alleged the truth neglected this essential area other more dubious and underhanded groups (whether deviated Muslim sects or non-Muslim) became more inviting and subsequently filled the void.

    If you look at how Salafiyyah (Islaam) is implemented in Muslim countries, you see that it is not treated like a movement. In fact when you express it as a movement you are looked at as an idiot. It is practiced in its natural form in every facet of society as it is meant to be. Granted, we do not have the type of support mechanisms present in Muslim societies but do we blame Salafiyyah for this?

    Now about those extremists elements that I eluded to earlier? Well we were faced with two main extremist fronts that plagued the ranks of the Salafees. Both claimed Salafiyyah and both stood against the principles of the religion. Combined with their youthfulness, arrogance, ignorance of Islaam’s foundations and principles and the desire to be seen and heard they were led to what can be likened to a building with no foundation and as mentioned earlier that foundation must contain purification of the soul and Tawheed. When that bubble burst for whatever reason then of course you have what is referred to as falling off, burn out, or worse, apostasy – and we seek Allaah’s safety. The foundation was either faulty or non existent while issues – some complicated – were steadily being piled on. In the end the building came down like the WTC – Wallaahu Musta’aan

    Of course extremism in all forms is rejected by this flawless religion. The scholars of this Ummah have spoken about this time and time again. Islaam teaches moderation in all aspects of life. When you swerve from this natural inclination then you’ve opened the door to a weakness that can and will be exploited by the Shaytaan from amongst mankind and the jinn. Those who have deviated from both fronts were indeed extreme and because Allaah does not allow such extreme behavior to be attributed to His perfect religion they were eventually exposed and those who aligned themselves with THEM rather than the religion suffered alongside of them.

    So to say Salafiyyah fell is staunchly inaccurate. Rather the extremist “movements” and cliques that saturated its ranks fell. Whether it was the clique of hizbee political radicals such as Ali Tamimee and those associated with him who subtlety advocated takfeer under the guise of “social reform” using new eloquent political terms and methods or whether it was the ghulaat Haddadees associated with TROID, SP, or Philly or their wannabes in various states who used strong armed street tabloid sensationalized tactics. They all rose as a result of following individuals who were later exposed for their ignorance of the principles of the Salaf. On the side of Ali Tamimee was the unveiling of Safar Al-Hawali and Salman Al-Awdah and their contrapositive and counter productive methodology of subtle takfeer and on the side of the ghulaat were the likes Faalih Harbee and Fawzee Al-Atharee and others who deemed all those who opposed their methodology as either “unclear” or “off it.” In both instances the middle path was established firmly due to the scholars’ clarification of the truth. The likes of Shaykh Bin Baaz, Shaykh Muqbil, Shaykh Al-Jaamee, Shaykh Al-Albaanee, Shaykh Uthaymeen and others dealt with Safar and Salmaan and the likes of Shaykh Rabee, Shaykh Ahmed, Shaykh Ubaid, and others exposed the ghulaat. From both sides many repented sincerely to Allaah and embraced the truth but for those who used these groups and individuals as a crutch to justify their Islaam and radical ways then they fell along with them. Salafiyyah has indeed been clarified and the extremist elements therein fell. So it is by far better off than what it was under the regime of Abu Muslimah, better off than what is was under the umbrellas of IANA and QSS, and better off than what it was under the oppression of the Haddadees. So if you fell into further deviance or kufr as a result of that drama then its because Allaah says,

    “And whoever contradicts and opposes the Messenger (Muhammad) after the Right Path has been shown clearly to him, and follows other than the believers’ way. we shall keep Him In the Path He has chosen, and burn Him In Hell – what an evil destination.” (4:115)

    And He says,

    “And whoever defies and disobeys Allâh and his Messenger, Then Verily, Allâh is Severe In punishment.”(8:13)

    And if you felt sadness, loneliness, then it was probably because you fell into the verse where Allaah says,

    “But Whosoever turns away from My Reminder (i.e. neither believes In This Qur’aan nor acts on its orders, etc.) Verily, for Him is a life of hardship, and we shall raise Him up blind on the Day of Resurrection. He will say:”O My Lord! why have You raised Me up blind, while I had sight (before). (Allaah) will say: “Like this, Our Ayaat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) came unto you, but You disregarded them (i.e. You left them, did not think deeply In them, and You turned away from them), and so This day, You will be neglected (in the Hell-fire, away from Allaah’s Mercy).” (20:124-126)

    So let us as believers take hold of what we call “al-asbaab” or the real underlying reasons why these events occurred so that we can avoid them in the future.

    Ask yourself, were you really upon the manhaj of the Salaf or were you in alliance with a group or individual? Was your creed AND MANHAJ synonymous with that of the first three generations of Muslims or otherwise? Did you have doubt when clarity from the scholars came to you or were you firm and steadfast in trying to understand? If you had doubt and remained with your alliances and followed your desires then Allaah says,

    “It is for those who believe, a Guide and a healing. and as for those who disbelieve, there is heaviness (deafness) In their ears, and it (the Qur’aan) is blindness for them. they are those who are called from a place far away (so they neither listen nor understand).” (41:44)


    “And we send down from the Qur’aan that which is a healing and a Mercy to those who believe (in Islaamic Monotheism and act on it), and it increases the Dhaalimoon (polytheists and wrong-doers) nothing but loss.” (42:82)

    So those who had doubt and uncertainty were led further from the truth.

    When the verses and narrations came to you where were you when the dust cleared? Were you relying solely and sincerely upon Allaah for guidance or were you STILL latched on to your alliances?

    If you dropped those hizbee alliances then know that Allaah says,
    “Then whoever follows My guidance shall neither Go astray, nor fall into distress and misery.” (20:123)

    And if not, then Allaah says,

    “And if the Truth had been In accordance with their desires, Verily, the heavens and the earth, and Whosoever is therein would have been corrupted! Nay, we have brought them their reminder, but they turn away from their reminder.” (23:71)

    When you disagreed about an affair where did you take it? Was it taken back to a group or individual that you were aligned with or back to Allaah and His Messenger (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) and those in authority from amongst us i.e. the Scholars?

    All of these questions are valid as it relates to one’s faith increasing for the better and decreasing for the worse. The more your imaan increases the greater your chances are at seeking knowledge (which in itself increases imaan) and the more knowledge you have of this religion the greater your chances are of fighting back some of those demons and social calamities that we are faced with.

    To actually see that individuals left the foundations of Islaam’s understanding for falsehood that can neither harm them or benefit them because of a band of misfits and youth is amazing to me but know that they fall into the verses mentioned above. Allaah is never unjust to anyone. Those are the paths they have chosen for themselves. And indeed Allaah has no need for us but we are in need of Him. I ask Allaah to increase my imaan and protect me from such a trial.
    Also, do we assumed that because we are Salafee that we received a “go to jannah free” card? Allaah clearly says,

    “Do you think that because you believe you shall not be tested?”

    Many do not understand that in order to purify the soul and strengthen one’s imaan they must be tested. This is the Sunnah of Allaah. And we know that the Prophet (sallallaahu alayhi wa sallam) said, “If Allah wants to do good to somebody, He afflicts him with trials.” (Saheeh Bukhaaree)
    “You shall certainly be tried and tested in your possessions and in your personal selves; and ye shall certainly Hear much that will grieve you, from those who received the Book before you and from those who worship many gods. But if ye persevere patiently, and guard against evil,-then that will be a determining factor in all affairs. [3:186]

    “Everyone is going to taste death, and we shall make a trial of You with evil and with good, and to us You will be returned.”(21:35)

    So because you have claimed the truth it must be proven that you are in fact worthy of it and upon it. Either you are and your faith is increased with each trial you pass or you are simply another fraud in which case these tests and trails become a burden for you and you turn away. Either way, the ranks must be purified.

    Those who have allegedly fell off are a small group of people who have failed in their battle against the plots of the Shaytaan. This relentless enemy targets the strongest elements of a community by singling in on individual weaknesses. That being said and hopefully understood one needs to have the necessary weapons to fight such an enemy who continues his unwavering attack day and night. Sadly, those who relied on individual personalities and groups found them to be their only weapon. When those individuals fell they had no choice but to fall with them. Had their crutch been the Book and the Sunnah upon the understanding of the Salaf of this Ummah with SINCERITY then we would have seen a different outcome. Those who “fell off” did not fall off because of a sickness in another man’s heart but due to a sickness in their own hearts which eventually manifested itself when they turned away from the truth.

    To find that some people have left for Sufism and Kufr and blame Salafiyyah is simply hypocritical and indicative of people looking for a scapegoat for their weakness in religion as well as an excuse to be separatist in their ideology. I say hypocritical because we expect the kuffar not to judge us based on the actions of terrorists yet we do the same to one another. How does one move from darkness to light and back to darkness again except that the Shaytaan helps him in his journey?

    I can certainly sympathize for what some are feeling but as it stands, it has nothing to do with Salafiyyah. It is however a result of personal issues that brothers and sisters have within themselves as well as with others. Aligned with these personal issues is ignorance. As a result, of not knowing the truth and not returning to the people of knowledge, many have been led to THEIR own demise and ultimate downfall and indeed the lone sheep always gets devoured by the wolf.

    The misfortune and sadness that many have been plagued with is bound to occur as it is a part of life, human development and the life of the believer.
    “Be sure we shall test you with something of fear and hunger, some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil), but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere, Who say, when afflicted with calamity: “To Allah We belong, and to Him is our return”:- They are those on whom (Descend) blessings from Allah, and Mercy, and they are the ones that receive guidance.” [2:155-157]

    These times will either make you or break you. Either it builds proper Islaamic character due to one’s patience and perseverance or it turns a man back upon the life he subconsciously enjoyed before Islaam. This dunyah is a prison for the believer and there is no happiness within it except that it comes from Islaam and Salafiyyah.

    So may Allaah bless those who remained steadfast in the times of fitan that befell the brothers in the US for indeed they are the sincere ones.

  199. Akhi “Aboo Abdillaah U”, can you further eloborate and explain what do you mean here:

    “……………..On the side of Ali Tamimee was the unveiling of Safar Al-Hawali and Salman Al-Awdah and their contrapositive and counter productive methodology of subtle takfeer”

    what is “subtle takfeer”?

  200. as-Salâm ‘alaikum wa rahmatullah,

    Aboo Abdillaah U = Umar Bryant? Just curious.

    While agree with what was said at the beginning of your post, I do find this part quite amusing:

    … the likes of Shaykh Rabee, Shaykh Ahmed, Shaykh Ubaid, and others exposed the ghulaat.

    I find it so particularly because Shaikh ‘Abdul-Muhsin al-‘Abbâd has mentioned that these three shuyūkh you named in particular resemble Shaikh Fâlih al-Harbî and opposed the manhaj of Shaikhs Ibn Bâz and Ibn ‘Uthaimîn, especially in criticising and refuting others. It was only after this stern advice and criticism from Shaikh ‘Abdil-Muhsin that you found Shaikh Rabî’, along with some others, distancing themselves from Shaikh Fâlih, and coining the term “Haddâdism” to label those who were just a little harsher and exaggerated than they were.

    In reality, there’s no such thing as Haddâdism (or even Madkhalism, for that matter). What you have are Salafîs who went overboard in criticising and hereticating (tabdî’) others for their mistakes. Shaikh al-Haddâd (despite his errors) and Shaikh Rabî’ al-Madkhalî were not the originators of this exaggeration, nor do not deserve to have their names directly associated with it by naming this type of behaviour after them, as if those who exhibit it are their own sect.

    As for all this talk about who the truly moderate and balanced Salafîs are, and then naming persons/shaikhs A, B, and C, and then saying that persons/shaikhs X, Y, and Z are extremists or they’re Madkhalîs, or Haddâdîs, or whatever, is counter-productive—especially in light of what has been being discussed here in some of the earlier comments and the concerns expressed within them.

    Everyone is going to claim that they’re upon the correct version of Islam, whether they be Salafîs, Sufîs, Ahmadîs, Râfidîs, etc. Those claiming Salafiyyah are no different, everyone claiming Salafiyyah is going to say that their brand of it is the correct one and the truly moderate and balanced one.

    If you want to be productive about it, then do as Allah says in the Qur’an and take the dispute back to the Book and the Sunnah and do so without saying so-and-so is representative of this brand of Salafiyyah, while so-and-so is not.

  201. Aboo Abdillah, it must feel great taking potshots at people like Ali al-Timimi. Afterall, you’re sitting somewhere nice and comfortable, while he’s rotting in a US prison. You can say your piece, and even if you were to slander him – he can’t reply!

    Win-Win! Now thats a methodology i like.

  202. akhee Aboo Abdillah U, “Wake up” bro… get out of your bubble… You all are the SAME, regardless of how much you scream about your differences. Just because you accept/reject a few more Shayookh, you continue to import a Saudi issue into our lives. GET OVER IT for the sake of Allah. Don’t keep dragging the noble Shayookh, like Bin Baz, Ibn Uthaymeen RH into your little click. BREAK AWAY from the hizb, that is what this is. Why is your life consumed by Sh. Awdah/Hawali ‘s errors, even if we say they had some? Have you counted your own errors recently? I am wondering where’s your list of “who’s on and who’s off?” Don’t you see that we have BIGGER problems in the world?

    On second-thought, I am glad that you all are here, each spewing his own version of the “true” salafiyah. I am sure it is assuming for some (esp. the ‘outsiders’), its embarrasing for others (esp. the ‘insiders’), and its sad for yet others (who see this noble dawah splintering so much). That just goes to highlight and provide living examples of what Umar has described historically. And I assure you that tomorrow your click will yet be separated into more clicks as one of your “on the haqq” shaikh gets “off” and some will go with him, and others will stay put!

    wallahu mustaa’an.

  203. as-Salâm ‘alaikum wa rahmatullah.

    Mashâ’allah, Salman. Your hatred for the shaikh really shines through in that one.

    You know, I find it comical how some of those complaining about the damage that has been done to the da’wah and the need to fix things will speak so candidly about scholars of the da’wah with such hatred and malice. You’d think that if one really wanted to aid in fixing things, one would avoid such talk and talk about ways to mend things rather than add fuel to the fire and draw reations from supporters of said scholars, while eating poison at the very same time.

    Salman, one of your old friends sent out a really nice reminder on brother Muhammad al-Jibaly’s YahooGroup mailing list. I hope you read it—just as I hope anyone else reading this blog posting comments who is also on al-Jibaly’s YahooGroup will read it. It applies to every single one of us, including myself.

  204. Aboo Hafs

    The methodology of Safar, Salmaan, Munajjad, and the tons of others who are on the “Salafee in aqeedah but modern in manhaj” ideology is not to be explicit in takfeer and if it is not takfeer then it is insulting the rulers. Ali Tamimee was at times explicit and implicit however his mentors Safar and Salmaan were not. They would say little subtleties in their lectures, tapes, and writings that leaned towards takfeer without actually saying “SO AND SO is a disbeliever.”

    Let me give you an example of what they do here in Saudi. A well known “shaikh” here in this area may give a lecture on the companions. He may say things such as, “Umar was a great man, he was firm in the face of oppression and indeed a strong example. Would that Umar were here today.”
    Do you see the subtle insult? If not, no worries because the scholars here see right through it and refute it. What does one intend by ,”Would that Umar were here today?’ So rather than coming right out and saying it, they beat around the bush.
    Sure, the rulers are not perfect. And when I say rulers I do not mean just those here in Saudi as Umar Lee would have us all believe by his post. I mean ALL of the Muslim leaders.

  205. As Salaam u Alaikum,
    I had some friends (and many foes) among the Salafis, and while I came to despise most of them, I came to the Ahlul-Bayt mainly because of them. Well, foremost because of Allah, but through them as the mechanism. And while as an outsider I could see much of the self-destruction beforehand, it is humbling and painful to read about someones hopes, communities, friendships, and families being destroyed. It is only made worse when you know that it was often people from communities and families that had historically faced much destruction themselves.

    May Allah give Faith, Unity, and Guidance to the Muslims

  206. For the likes of AMAD then I refuse to get into a debate with a band of traumatized individuals looking for a scapegoat and an outlet to do what they do best. The likes of you were simply laying in wait for a post like this.

    Rasheed, I find some of what you said to be amusing as well. I would like to know who from the scholars here you are actually sitting with and getting this information from. Perhaps I am misinformed and confused and need to reboot. First, I do not recall remotely suggesting that any one Shaykh was representative of Salafiyyah
    I would like to know if that statement you quoted has any bearing on the virtue of the three scholars mentioned? If not, then what was your intention by quoting it and what is the source? Secondly, what do the likes of Shaykh Fawzaan, Shaykh Luhaydaan, and the Muftee say about these mashaayikh? Do they all say the same as Shaykh Abdul Muhsin? If yes, does that remove any virtue from the Shaykh? If no, does that remove any virtue from Shaykh Abdul Muhsin? While we are on that thought I would like to simply to point out that those who have a bitter taste left in their mouths from the fitnah continuously use Shaykh Abdul Muhsin as a source or crutch while at the same time criticizing anyone who uses Shaykh Rabee, Shaykh Ubaid, and Shaykh Ahmed as a source. I could have certainly chosen to bring the various other scholars who refuted Faalih that you’ve probably never heard of but I am sure someone somewhere would have found an issue to make out of that.

    The cycle still continues. When the smoke clears the accusation of the “name your shaikh game” appears. It’s the same drama on every anti-Salafee site, board, and blog on the internet.

    I do believe that your history is flawed. There were many students and scholars that began to refute and debate Faalih before Abdul Muhsin began to speak about him. To suggest that Shaykh Rabee and others only began to do so AFTER Shaykh Abdul Muhsin brings us back to your intention? What would be the point in mentioning that? Is there a need to make one mightier than the other???

    To suggest that these scholars do not follow the manhaj of Bin Baaz and Uthaymeen is and old accusation and it has been refuted time and time again by various scholars. Furthermore, we do not hear this being spread amongst the students or scholars upon the Salafee manhaj.

    As for your historical account of Haddadees then this is also inaccurate and more of a personal observation as you understand it. Once again, we do not hear any of the students or scholars suggesting what you have said. So again I ask, what are you true intentions by posting it?

    The bottom line here is that there are those who are simply ANTI RABEE. From them are those who hate him because they are plane enemies of the Sunnah and there are those who have grown to hate him (whether they admit it or not) because they falsely assume he started much of the division. I believe that the second group causes most of the problems. The first group is easy to spot and therefore easy to steer clear of. But the second group, Allaah help the second group, these are the ones who have brought about much confusion and continue to do so.

    I agree 100%, let us return back to the Book and the Sunnah and those in authority from amongst us. Let us see who will bring their personal baggage and ill-feelings with them as we return and let us see who will be sincere.

  207. Assalaamun ‘Alaykum Wa Rahmatullaahi Wa Barakatuh.

    Allah (SWT) said:

    “And if you differ in anything amongst yourselves, refer it to Allah and His Messenger, if you bellieve in Allah and in the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for final determination” (4:59)

    “….And follow not your desires for it will mislead you from the Path of Allah….” (Saad 38:26)

    “And who is more astray than one who follows his own lusts, without guidance from Allah?” (28:50)

    “Is he who is on clear proof from his Lord, like those for whom their evil deeds that they do are beautified for them, while they follow their own lusts?” (47:14)

    Therefore it is clear – “empty claims” of who is upon the “correct salafiyah” or “balanced salafiyah” means nothing and this only adds further dismay and confusion to the brothers and sisters who may gave been effected by the fitnah.

    But rather let us establish the criterion that differentiates the true path from the paths of falsehood. For the most part most of us here are “salafee” in aqeedah inshAllah, but the differences seems to lie in methodology and strategies in revival.

    The Messenger of Allah (Sall Allaahu ‘Alayhi wa Sallam) was sent as a caller to the Tawheed of
    Allaah, by the sword. He said (Sall Allaahu ‘Alayhi wa Sallam):, “I was sent prior to the Hour
    with the sword, so that Allaah will be worshipped alone with no partner or associate.” [Musnad Ahmad, from Ibn ‘Umar. Saheeh al-Jaami’ #2831]

    He was also ordered to fight those who disbelieve in him, for he said, “I have been commanded
    (by Allaah) to fight the people until they testify that there is no god but Allaah and that Muhammad is Allaah’s Messenger.” [Agreed upon by al-Bukhaaree and Muslim, from Ibn

    So this is the path of the Prophet (Sall Allaahu ‘Alayhi wa Sallam), who Allaah Commanded us to follow and emulate. He Said, {There has certainly been for you in the Messenger of Allaah an excellent pattern.} [Soorat al-Ahzaab v. 21]

    In addition, Allaah’s Messenger (Sall Allaahu ‘Alayhi wa Sallam) informed that the Taa’ifah al- Mansoorah (the Victorious Assembly), which is guided, lasting, and remaining without absence until Allaah inherits the Earth and those upon it. This victorious assembly is a fighting, warring, group, carrying out Jihaad.

    The Prophet (Sall Allaahu ‘Alayhi wa Sallam) said, “There will always be people establishing
    this Religion, a party of the Muslims fighting for it, until the Hour is established.” [Saheeh

    The Prophet (Sall Allaahu ‘Alayhi wa Sallam) said, “There will always be a group of my nation, fighting for the commandments of Allaah, subjugating their enemy, not harmed by those
    who oppose them, until the Hour arrives and they are still like this.” [Saheeh Muslim]

    The Prophet (Sall Allaahu ‘Alayhi wa Sallam) said, “There will always be a group of my nation,
    fighting for the truth, apparent, until the Day of Resurrection… ‘Eesaa (Jesus) (Sallallaahu ‘Alayhi wa Sallam) will descend. So their leader will say to him, ‘Come, lead us in prayer.’ So he will say, ‘You are leaders over each other.’ An honor from Allaah for this nation.” [Saheeh Muslim]

    Therefore it is clear-cut – any manhaj, path, or group etc that is not directly or indirectly linked to the theatre of Jihaad today is a path in opposition to the path of the salaf – whether this be absence in person, financial support, or spreading awareness/news of the fronts, etc. And this is in accordance to ones ability etc.

    Shaykh al-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah (rh) narrates from Imaam ‘Abdullaah Ibn al-Mubaarak and Imaam Ahmad ibn Hanbal that they said, ” If the people disagree (ikhtilaaf) regarding anything , then look at what the Mujaahidoon say- since the Truth is with them; because Allaah says, “As for those who wage Jihaad in Us (for Our Cause), We will surely guide them to Our Paths.” al-‘Ankaboot: 69. (Refer to Majmoo’ al-Fataawaa (28/442)).

    Shaykhul-Jihaad Abdullah Azzam (RH) said in his book – “Defence of the Muslim Lands”:

    “Finally we say, the case is not settled by long lists of quotations or the bringing forward of witnesses. Rather, the matter is referred to the heart. If Allah gives it light it will see the truth, in which everything is apparent. Otherwise, if the hearts are darkened they will not see.

    “…Verily, it is not the eyes that grow blind, but it is the hearts which are in the breast that grow blind.” (Soorat Al Hajj: 46.)

    The vision of the heart is for evidences, and the signs of the Lord are for cultivating Taqwa, obedience and enthusiasm for acts of worship.

    “Verily, proofs have come to you from your Lord, so whoever sees, will do so for (the good of) his own self, and whosoever blinds himself, will do so to his own harm, and I (Mohammed s.a.w.) am not a watcher over you.” (Soorat Al An’am: 104).

    This vision opens forth in the heart the springs of perception. A perception not earned by studying. Verily, it is an understanding given by Allah to his servant for His Book and His religion according to the capacity of the heart’s
    vision. This vision grows in the field of the heart, that he may discern truth from falsehood, the honest from the liar. The Exalted said:

    “Surely! Therein is indeed a sign for the believers.” (Soorat Al Hijr: 77.)

    Mujahid said: “In at Tirmithi, Abi Said al Khudri (ra) reported that the Prophet (saw) said: “Fear the perception of the believer for he sees with the light of Allah the Almighty the Majestic.” Then he read:

    “Surely! Therein is indeed a sign for the believers.” (Soorat Al Hijr: 77.)

    Everyone who prefers the life of this world from among the scholars, he must lie concerning Allah in his Fatawa and rulings, in his lectures and his commands, because many of the rules of the Lord conflict with the desires of the people, especially those endowed with authority.

    Those who serve their lusts, their desires will not be satisfied except by contradicting the truth or rejecting a great part of it. If the scholars and those who govern love power and pursue their desires, they will not find fulfillment unless they oppose the truth. Especially when the doubtful coincides with their lusts, thus tempting his lower nature. What is right becomes hidden and the face of truth is covered. If the truth is evident and without doubt, he chooses the controversial and excuses himself by saying that he will find an exit in repentance. About those, and those like them the Exalted said:

    “Then, there has succeeded a posterity who have given up prayers (i.e. made their prayers to be lost, either by not offering them or by not offering them perfectly or by not offering them in their proper fixed times. etc.) and have followed lusts…” (Soorat Maryam: 59.)

    The Exalted also said about them:

    “Then after them succeeded them an (evil) generation, which inherited the Book, but they chose (for themselves) the good of this low life (evil pleasures of this world) saying (as an excuse): (Everything) will be forgiven to us. And if (again) the offer of the like (evil pleasures of this world) came their way, they would (again) seize them (would commit those sins). Was not the covenant of the Book taken from them that they would not say about Allah anything but the truth? And they studied what is in it (the Book). And the home of the hereafter is better for those who are Al Muttaqun. Do not you then understand?” (Soorat Al A’araf: 169).

    To follow vain desires blinds the eye of the heart, until it can no longer differentiate between Sunnah and Bid’ah, or it inevitably reverses them that it perceives the Bid’ah as Sunnah. This is the plague the scholars suffer when they prefer the life of this world and pursue lusts and follow after leaders. (Al Fuayid: 113-114).

    The following verses refer to them:

    “And recite (O Mohammed) to them the story of him to whom we gave our Ayat (proofs evidences lessons signs revelations, etc.) but he threw them away, so Satan followed him up, and he became of those who went astray. And had We willed, we would surely have elevated him therewith but he clung to the earth and followed his own vain desire.

    So his description is the description of a dog: if you drive him away, he lolls his tongue out, or if you leave alone he (still) lolls his tongue out…” Soorat (Al A’raf: 175-176).

    Quotations will not suffice, because the perception of the truth relies on the
    enlightenment of the heart.

    When the heart has a strong attachment to the life of this world, and the bearer of this heart is immersed in sin, Ran (black covering) overcomes the heart. Because, every sin is a black stain on the heart. These black stains accumulate until the Ran is total and prevents the penetration of light to the heart. When the heart is darkened, things no longer appear as they truly are, for truth is confused and its face no longer apparent. The heart is inverted and sees truth as falsehood and falsehood as truth.

    There must be Taqwa that the capacity for discernment is developed, the heart cleansed, that if may accord things their proper order:

    “O you who believe! If you obey and fear Allah, He will grant you Furqan a criterion (to judge between right and wrong or Makhraj, i.e. making a way for you to get out from every difficulty), and will expiate for you your sins, and forgive you, and Allah is the owner of the great
    bounty.” (Soorat Al Anfal: 29.)

    When they were in confusion over difficult questions they should say, “ask the people of the battle fronts because they are the nearest to Allah”. They asked Ahmad Bin Hanbal: “Who do we ask after you?” He said, “ask Aba Bakr al Waraq for he possesses Taqwa as it ought to be, and I hope he will be successful in answering.”

    In Bukhari and Muslim a hadith Marfu: “In the past among the nations before you there were inspired men and if there was one in my nation it would be Umar Bin Khattab,” and Umar was true to this. Muslim narrates in his sahih from Aisha (ra), who said: “The Messenger of Allah (saw) would open his prayer when he stood at night with: Our Lord of Jibreel and Mikaeel, Originator of the heavens and the earth, Knower of the unseen and the seen, you judge between your slaves in that in which they are at difference. Guide me from that in which they differ to the truth by Your leave. You guide whom You will to the straight path.”

    Finally we supplicate by the blessed verse:

    “…O Lord! Judge between us and our people in truth, for you are the best of those who give judgment.” (Soorat Al A’raf: 89)

    We repeat the supplication of the Messenger of Allah (saw) as reported in sahih Muslim:

    “O Allah guide us from that in which they differ to the truth by your permission. You guide whom you will to the straight path. Our Lord forgive us and our brethren who preceded us in faith and put not in our hearts any hatred towards those who have believed.

    Our Lord you are indeed Full of Kindness, Most Merciful. O Allah make us live in contentment and die as Shaheed and gather us among the group of Mustafa (saw). Glory be to you O Allah and praise, I bear witness that there is no god but you. I seek your forgiveness and to you I repent.”
    (end of quote)

    We ask Allah that we only desire to seek His pleasure so we ask Allah to keep us sincere in our efforts and keep our hearts open so that inshAllah we can be guided to Siratal mustaqeem. Ameen.

  208. Im sorry folks, but most of these comments only solidify my resolve not to get involved with any salafis at all-save the moderate ones that work with other Muslims for the common good.


  209. Lol.. Aboo Abdulillah: “Sure, the rulers are not perfect.” Well, gee.. ya think?

    Personally – I have to say, I am always a bit.. perplexed over the whole ‘rulers’ thang. Why is that such a hot topic in salafiyya.

    I mean look at at it.. each ‘flavour’ has their own take on it.

    Its like (crude summary) –

    Takfiris: The Rulers are kuffar.
    jihadi-salafis: The Rulers, the ones that are not kuffar, are tawagheet and stooges of the west.

    Spubs/troid and their ilk: The Rulers are above criticisim! You must never talk or blame or ask why! They nor their policies are not to be criticised at all. Ever!

    and now the ‘moderate/balanced’ salafis – insofar as maybe slightly ‘less-troid-than-troid’ ?.. its like: wellll okay theyre not perfect.. (I can hear a big BUT at the end of that sorta statement mm?)

    Like I say, I dont get it.. – can someone clue me in why we muslims/salafis IN THE WEST obsess about the rulers of muslim lands who we DONT live under??

  210. KashifN,

    As for taking “potshots” at Ali Tamimee, then as I have said, I sat with him on a few occasions along with his partner. I know what he taught, what materials he would sell in DC, the types of books and leaflets he would distribute and the individuals he would advocate for. I personally liked Ali as an individual and have never had anything personal against him.
    So I ask, isn’t our loyalty to be exclusively for the truth or is it simply for men who claim the truth and we’ll just ask questions later?

    So if I am misinformed then kindly enlighten me.

  211. Hmm…
    let me get this straight..

    So if I’m talking to some people:
    “Man, look at our situation.. its sad.. would that someone like Umar was here today”
    .. I’ve just committed ‘subtle takfir’ have I..?

    Allahu musta’an

  212. To Former Salafi: bro, I’m sure you know better than to judge the worth of Islam based on muslims and their view.. does that logic not hold with salafiyya?

    You said “Im sorry folks, but most of these comments only solidify my resolve not to get involved with any salafis at all-save the moderate ones that work with other Muslims for the common good.”

    There’s clearly clearly a whole mishmash of ideas about what the salafi dawa is/should be in the aftermath of what Umar described in his series..
    I do not agree that just because theres not yet a clear consensus emerging on what/who/where the salafi are, that that proves salafiya invalid.

  213. Amad, I couldn’t agree more with your response. In the beginning it appeared like a seamless response. The first half, Mashallah, was a good reminder. I thought the brother (may Allaah have mercy on him and us) was going some where productive.

    Then came the rest.

    And the rest Muslimeen, as well worded and colored pretty with ayaat that it was, was no different than that same ugly ailment that is currently (as well as formerly) crippling the ranks of the salafiyeen and others trying to hold fast to ahlus sunnah.

    How strange to continuously see people who with one leg makes strides towards Allaah (enshallah) with good intentions and good deeds, and with the other leg on the very same body are making bold strides for the destruction of their own brethren. But, be not confused. There is nothing original about this affliction.

    As Allaah says in His speech,

    Have you not seen those who claim purity for themselves, nay-but Allaah purifies whom He pleases. Surah An Nisaa: 49

    If we have not learned yet, then take the note now enshallah: to belittle, to degrade, to be preoccupied with the destruction and incessantly question the intentions of every party (hizb) of people besides your own is a sure sign of one being apart of a hizb! For Allaah’s sake, leave this way.

    Additionally, all of the talk about the categories of salafies is nauseating. Perhaps if we could leave off all of excessive questioning, praise or dishonoring of the shuyook for a moment and return to our bookshelves, we would find clarity:

    And He (Allaah) has ordained for you the same Deen which He ordained for Nuh, and that which we revealed to you (Muhammad (saws) and that which We ordained for Ibraheem and Musaa and Eesa: that you should establish the deen and make no divisions. Surah Ash Shurah:13

    The deen is one and Allaah made it easy, walhamdulilah. Let’s stop calling to callers. Let’s stop calling to groups. Let’s stop calling to ourselves. Instead, let us take advantage of the ease Allaah has given us and remain content with the book of Allah and the Sunnah of His nabi (saws) and then stop ourselves where the people before us (our salaaf) stopped.

    Rather than resort to this elementary styled list of your favorite and disliked people, how about we follow what we have been instructed to do and that is judge the statements of every Muslim, regardless of WHO they are, by the kitab of Allah and the sunnah. When the people are correct, Alhamdulilah, we can take benefit from it or at the very least acknowledge that they have spoken the truth. When they are not correct, may Allaah reward them and us. The right way-truth, can be found on that issue from someone else.

    Differences are going to exist amongst us. Ijtihaad has it usefulness in those areas where it is permissible to use it and we need to let go, as one poster suggested, of always desiring everyone to follow our own choosen way. Next, understand that what is never useful and never permitted for the Muslim is spreading fasaad within the ummah. That is vile indeed.

    “Verily those who divide the religion and break up into sects you have nothing to do with them in the very least. Their affair is only with Allaah, then He will inform them of they used to do. Surah Al An’aam:159

    What is sad is that the bigger picture is still being lost amongst all of the talk. Unlike some who have choosen to think the worst of those who came to ad dawatus salafiyah during the previous era, I am going to assume the best. And that is that we all found our way to it biithneelah because we believed and were inspired by it; its core principles, to be the correct way and we were openly turning away from the blindfollowing ways of our relatives. And that was nothing, nothing short of a mercy from Allah.

    “And mention the favor of Allaah on you, as you were once enemies of one another and He joined your hearts together, so that you, by His grace, became brethren, and you were on the brink of a pit of fire, and He saved you from it.” Surah Aali Imraan:103

  214. musleemah, mashallah a lot of sense in what you say. succinct, plain, common sense.


    just one thing. lets think about reality.
    (and this is to everyone, not just the musleemah (may Allah preserve you).

    realitically speaking, the majority of us are still going to have to refer to someone. learn from someone.

    who do we take knowledge from?

  215. see, the problem remains, doesnt it.

    (in the aftermath, how do we pick ourselves up and who do we take knowledge from.)

  216. Assalamu alaikum

    I would like to apologise to those who took offence at my comments of Brixton mosque. Apparently, they have changed recently and there has been a drive to change certain habits some people may have in the mosque, so may Allah increase them in guidance.

    To further add, my reading many of the comments posted, I can seemingly understand what happened to salafi communities in the US.

  217. To ”another salafi”:

    Let me explain myself further. First of all, I am not a Salafi. I used to be a Salafi along time ago, in fact, I was one of their ”Du’at”-minus the unethical things many of them have done, wal-Hamdulillah (so no, I do not paint all salafis with a broad brush). I used to be the Imam of a ”Salafi” Masjid, and had lectures online-the whole 9 yards. No, I am not going to say who I am, so you can choose to believe me or not, thats fine.

    Beyond that, Salafiyah does not equal Islam, as many brothers/sisters like to believe here. Of course, those of you that are Salafi will say that because that is what you believe. I believe that Salafiyah is a attempt to reclaim a past that is much more nuanced than admitted, thus one spoke the truth when he said: ”Salafiyah is an unsuccessful flight from complexity.”

    If we were to for arguments sake, replace the word Salafi with the word Sunni, we can say that it is possible for one to be a Sunni while still having mistakes in certain areas of their beliefs, namely errors that are in matters that prove to detailed and not founded upon texts that are both Qati’ (decisive) both in Dilalah (what they indicate), and in Thubut (their establishment as sound texts).

    This, I believe was also the view of Imam Ibn Taymiyah as well, although I have never seen any Salafis hold that position with their fellow salafis, much less Sunnis who do not ascribe themselves to Salafiyah, save the ones most here would call Sururi/Qutubi/Sahwi.

    If Salafiyah seeks to draw its authority from the time period of the Salaf, we have a problem, because almost all of the major sects made their first appearance in that time. If Salafiyah seeks to draw its authority from individuals among the Salaf, we also have a problem, because they did not always agree on everything.

    What I am saying is what one Salafi student of knowledge said in response to this issue: ”Salafiyya should never have been made into a group – you’re either in or out – kind of thing. So I am more concerned with beliefs and practices than the label.”

    So, although I do not ascribe myself to Salafiyah (even though I believe (and hope) that I am following the Salaf), I think he is point on.

    But those among the Salafis that make it an in or out thing (which I might add, also exists with other groups as well but often times to a much lesser degree), they can not be reasoned with most of the times. Usually it takes them experiencing something bad at the hand of their fellow sectarians to see past the labels and rhetoric.

    Feeling distraught over Salafiyah has nothing to do with aversion to the Salaf or their way, it is sitting back and questioning: is this really the way of the Salaf or not?

    I for one am way past the whole salafi sloganeering that goes on and recognize that this Ummah is much bigger than a handful of scholars that belong to a certain group. Salafis need to mature and realize that as well.

  218. As Salaamu alaikum;
    MaashaaAllaah, that was well put together bro Umar. May Almighty Allaah forgive us and accept us in His Jannah. The Salafi Dawah is the Truth. Unfortunately, alot of the brother and sisters were dupped by so called duaat. Shaytan told Allaah that he would attack his servants from all angles and that they would be ungreatful. I feel for the sisters and brothers who got caught up in that fiasco. Self praise and jealousy was the underlying factor that distorted the Salafi dawah in US. ALOT of the ones running back and forth to the ulema were/are themselves BIGGER criminals than the ones the were reporting. “Be careful who you take your religion from.” The USA thing was filled with alot of hype and the muslim masses ate it up because most of the muslims was looking for a way out. Sisters and brothers don’t let the Devil deceive you as regards your deen. Wear your Jilbab grow your beards. You do it for the pleasure of Allaah not for fulaan fulaan.
    As Salaamu alaikum

  219. as-Salâm ‘alaikum wa rahmatullah brother Aboo Abdillaah U,

    I’m glad you find some of what I said to be amusing, especially considering the fact that based on your response, the reason I mentioned many things I did in my comment to your post seems to have flown right over your head.

    You can question my intents all you want, but you surely have to see the irony of the fact that the three respected shuyūkh you say “exposed the ghulaat”, were mentioned by Shaikh ‘Abdul-Muhsin al-‘Abbâd in his book al-Hath ‘alâ Ittibâ’ as-Sunnah (not by name, of course) as resembling Shaikh Fâlih, who according to Shaikh Rabî’ is “Haddâdî” i.e., from the ghulâh. He also did say that they opposed the manhaj of Shaikhs Ibn Bâz and Ibn ‘Uthaimîn in certain aspects. Whether his statements in this regard have been refuted by others or not, I think the shaikh is more than qualified and more knowledgeable about these two particular shaikhs and their methodologies than anyone else who might have anything to say regarding this specific matter.

    Another point of irony with what you said was that to my (limited, and apparently flawed and inaccurate) knowledge Shaikh ‘Ubaid still considers Shaikh Fâlih to be Salafî, upright, and one of the people of knowledge, and does not hereticate him like Shaikh Rabî’ does. This is one of the problems you find yourself running into when you start playing the name game.

    Despite all of this, I’m not “anti-Rabî’”, nor do I believe these things diminish any of these scholars in their virtue or standing among the Muslims. They are shuyūkh of Salafiyyah and Sunnah. None of them are infallible, or even immune to personal disputes, for that matter, and we ask Allah to forgive them of their shortcomings, and ours.

    You believe my history is flawed, then al-hamdulillah, that’s fine. Everyone’s got a slightly different take on things depending on their perspective and what information they’re privy to. I don’t claim to know every little detail about what has taken place in the da’wah or even between certain individuals and personalities—nor do I even believe that the bits of information I do know and am privy to are 100% accurate and completely free of some sort of bias. I do, however, trust my sources, as some of them have first hand knowledge of certain things that took place and certain statements that were made, which has lead me to the conclusions I’ve drawn regarding these things.

    As for what occurred between Shaikhs Rabî’ and Fâlih, Shaikh ‘Abdul-Muhsin wrote, published and distributed Rifqan Ahl as-Sunnah. The book got attacked and criticized (even by a couple of the shuyūkh you mentioned). He followed Rifqan with al-Hath (in which he made the statements concerning his three students—Shaikhs Fâlih, Rabî’, and ‘Ubaid—and Shaikh Ahmad). Shortly after, you started seeing the letters written by Shaikh Rabî’ to Shaikh Fâlih advising him being spread. Shortly after that, you started hearing the ultimatums to repent or else. Then shortly after that, you started hearing the cries of Haddâdiyyah and Shaikh Fâlih’s fitnah being the worst fitnah to hit Ahl as-Sunnah, a fitnah like no other fitan before it. It’s quite ironic that prior to the writing and printing of al-Hath Shaikh Rabî’ (along with others) was championing Shaikh Fâlih, but then after it’s printing and distribution, he turned 180° and started criticising him openly.

    There are other factors which have led me to the beliefs I hold regarding this issue; one being the fact that among the criticisms Shaikh Rabî’ has made of Shaikh Fâlih are criticisms of (a number) of statements, statements which Shaikh Rabî’ has made himself not too long ago, but seems to have forgotten.

    At the end of it all, I may not be privy to some of the information you apparently have due to your claim of being in Saudi, but this is the sequence of events I witnessed over the course of what happened. If I’m wrong, then I’m wrong. al-Hamdulillah, I don’t have a problem with that or with being corrected.

    As for the advice I referred to in my earlier post, which was sent out on Muhammad al-Jibaly’s mailing list, I really hope that those of you on that list have read it; and if not, ask those who you know who are on the list to forward it to you. It was, indeed, some beautiful advice. May Allah reward its writer greatly. And with that, I end my comments here and ask Allah to make us sincere in all our affairs, to guide us to that which pleases Him, and to protect us from the things which lead to destruction in this life and the next.

  220. MashaAllah lots of things being said

    the problems only step out of the Middle East, except they are magnified in the states,, and I see you folks in the ‘Great Satan’ as still dealing with issues that have faded away here, but still exist,,

    the thing is you got all these salafis and what not refering to sheikh/thinkers from different gerographical proximities. who usually never come in direct contact, least in Egypt the super salafi folks are quite dead, and useless yet still have their nagging the king of ‘Madkhalis’ (Osama Al-Quoosie) in Egypt has been announced as an innovator long time ago, then you ll have some mini shabaab saying oh wait a sec actually they sorted it out..

    In the American university of Cairo there are many Salafis and ikhwanis ( of salafi aqeeda in general some asharis yet not relevant) the previous generations use to clash and have tenssions now alhamdullelah there is more love and co-operation, big time, the change is obvious,,
    and not to mention the sufi study abroads who come and pretend to be all intellectuals and look upon the “culturally backwards” Egyptians and other salafis/ikwanis. and attend the seminars on rumi and such horse poop, and coplain how wahhabies dont allow people to make tawaff around graves!

    kuwait is doing a wonderful job, again madkhalis/ super salafis are prectically dead and useless, and the salafiya 3elmeya as some call it is in action, which is when you boil it down a mix of ikhwan and salafi,, sufis are pretty much unheard of there..

    in my experience convert salafis and american/western salafis are usually like the start out salafis here, who hardly know anything and take sifat as-salat by sheikh Albanie as the absolute way to pray..

    Al maghrib is nice,, but again i can sense some kissing up by a member.

    there are many issues that we just need to over look and move on,,,
    move on
    move on

    so what can you salafi/post salafi folks contribute to Islam from where you are??

  221. To ‘former salafi’:

    I appreciate you sharing (and thank you for responding to me so nicely, brother) all that because its interesting to see how various people who were affected by this have moved on.
    Some for worse (may Allah heal and guide us), some for better (may Allah establish us firmly).

    I am tantalised by a couple of things you mentioned :
    “First of all, I am not a Salafi. I used to be a Salafi along time ago..”
    – You left unsaid what follows from that, what it is you are, so to speak, now?

    “I for one am way past the whole salafi sloganeering that goes on and recognize that this Ummah is much bigger than a handful of scholars that belong to a certain group.”
    – Again here, could you elaborate, “way past” all that and into where?

    There have been a number of interesting comments – and thats one of the good outcomes of our brother Umar’s series here – of where the Haqq is to be found so I’d like to know your progress, being a former da’ee to salafiya and imam of a salafi masjid.

  222. To ”another salafi”

    Hayakum Allah. You asked me:
    – You left unsaid what follows from that, what it is you are, so to speak, now?

    I am a Sunni. Some might use the term ”traditionalist” by I dont like the term myself because it is a bit too post modern for my liking. The so called ”traditionalists” are by no means a monolithic bunch, so I might or might not fit what you have in your mind of such individuals.

    You then asked:
    – Again here, could you elaborate, “way past” all that and into where?

    Its a bit hard to express in words what I would like to say, but basically, I am way past the idea of taking Fiqh from only ”salafi” scholars-even if they are qualified.

    I see the Ummah as much bigger than that to restrict the Haqq to one set of scholars (im speaking of Fiqh here so allow me to digress with this). So while I recognize the immense Fiqh of Shaikh Ibn Uthaymin for example, I also take benefit from other non-salafi scholars in Fiqh because they have their specialties.

    So while in my general practice day to day, I make Taqlid of the Maliki school, in modern issues (Nawazil), I would go with Mufti Taqi Usmani in economic matters if the need arises, because of his strength in that area and the praise other scholars have given him in this field.

    I dont have an issue with someone following Salafi scholars in their Fiqh, if they take their Fatwas from them as a Muqallid should, and keep it at that, not trying to force their Fiqh opinion on the whole Ummah under the rubric of: It is the Rajih.

    Thats with Fiqh, but in general, I am past the sloganeering of: Qur’an and Sunnah with the understanding of the Salaf, because the dispute is not in that idea-for it is the truth, but it is in the question of fact: what is the understanding of the salaf in this or that matter?-this is what is disputed. I do not believe that just because someone proclaims that they follow they salaf exclusively, that their individual views will automatically represent the views of the Salaf.

    I hope this helps in sha Allah

    was salam

  223. Who do we take our knowledge from? Are we saying that there is not a single shaikh left who we can learn from without having to criticize any major/minor shaikh overseas or even here in US?

    I’m sure none of these students-of-knowledge mentioned above have ‘aqeedah’ problems (or at least most of them), walhamdullilah. So why can’t we take the good from them and steer away from their mistakes without making an episode of family feud out of their mistakes!

    I was warned several times that most of my AOU professors are ‘sarooris’, but I continued to study there…hmm wait…so am I a saroori?! Now that I come to think about it, I maybe one too :)

    In any case, I never had to get into ‘political’ discussions, saudi/non-saudi ruler discussions etc. etc. I also remember getting emails (back in 99 or 2000) several emails about Sh. Waleed titled, ‘Waleed Basyouni a lier a kadhib’…iyyadhobillah. If I had paid attention to those, I’m sure I would still be debating where should I take my knowledge from. I took/am still taking the knowledge from sh. waleed, not the criticism of others (not that he does it). There is so much to learn then learning which shaikh is making which mistake.

    Someone posted on a blog that people in his masjid (super salafi type) will not go to Al-Maghrib classes because al-maghrib is not ‘in touch’ with kibaar!!

    Hasn’t the time come for us to use our ‘aql’ to take the good from people of Sunnah.
    Al-Maghrib doesn’t teach shirk, or bid’ah or an ‘al-maghrib tareeqah’. So are we going to abandon them just because they are not ‘in-touch’ with kibaar (I have yet to understand what that really means!).

    To be quite honest, sitting in the almaghrib classes, I always get bombarded with GEMS on mannerism/polite approach towards people. You cannot imagine how much I changed/still changing my ‘harsh’ ways of dealing with people.

    In the end, if we really sincerely ask Allah az-Zawjal to guide us to the truth and to the people of truth for our knowledge, if we make du’a from the bottom of our heart, don’t you think Allah will respond?!! I believe in the power of du’a and I KNOW we all have this power, it is just a matter of using it.

    One beautiful statement made by Muhammad Al-Shareef, that once a da’wah effort starts to fall, then the people involved need to evaluate if they have a ‘connection’ with Allah through their worship and spirituality.
    wAllahu ta’ala ‘alam.

  224. As salaamu alaykum

    Sister Hanifah bint Will, Masjid Al-Hikma is in the beginning stages of development in the Ft. Washington are of the DC metro area.

    Also a good book that speaks to this issue and greater issues relative to Muslim Blacks in America is Islam and the Blackamerican: Looking toward the Third Resurrection by Dr. AbdulHakim(Sherman) Jackson.

    Although I do not agree with all that it is in the book it is a great foundational outlook for change.

  225. Assalaamu alaikum ya ukhtee Umm Reem,

    While I don’t agree with the brothers at my masjid who have taken that position; let me explain to you their reasoning.

    1) They say that one of the signs of Ahlul Sunnah is to love the scholars of Ahlul Sunnah…and by promoting the ulemaa this is an outward manifestation of their love.

    2) The Soofiyyah openly manifest their love for their mashaykh, so why not the Salafiyoon?

    3) By not referring back to the scholars, their teachers…they are misleading the people into thinking that they are the ulemaa themselves, kinda like “the buck stops here”(as one brother put it). I do agree that many students who take AlMaghrib classes are into that mindset, that they are the major scholars…a friend of mine told me that our teachers(at AlMaghrib) are the next Ibn Baaz’s…and I don’t know the future…but Ibn Baaz had a lot more knowledge at the age of our esteemed teachers than they it is a disrespect to Ibn Baaz to say such a thing. As long as things are kept in context, that the AlMaghrib instructors are students of knowledge and we respect them for that, but without going into exaggeration saying stuff like “ash-Shaykh al-Allaamah”…

    So, I actually believe the brothers have a legitimate point, but I agree with you as well in that it shouldn’t be deterring them from attending the classes themselves because they will not get that kind of beneficial knowledge at the nightly duroos.

    It would be nice to hear the AlMaghrib teachers referring more to the scholars(who are alive), outside of ‘Fiqh-ad-Dawah'(the CD set) when Muhammad AlShareef referred to Shaykh Abdul Muhsin Al-Abbaad, I’ve never heard it and I’ve taken 6 AlMaghrib classes.

    So yeah, you could make the point that there are bigger things to worry about, but understand the mentality of the brothers that I’m dealing with…they don’t really rely on du’aat in the first place for their knowledge, but mainly the scholars. So to them, one of the main functions of the da’ee is to connect them to the scholars..that is essentially the litmus test..and I don’t see any harm for AlMaghrib to do this actually. If I get a chance to get a little private time with him, I’ll try and ask Shaykh Yaser Birjas about this at the next class. JazakAllaahu Khair.

  226. To ‘former salafi’

    how about in aqeedah, brother?

    speaking of fiqh, myself, I’ve long since realised that actually, I’d need to go back to basics by starting to study fiqh according to one of the madhabs.. in accordance to what Ibn Uthaymin advised (funny the spubs-troid axis generally seemed to not mention that eh)… and in fact its because of his superb fiqh rahimahullah that I find myself wanting to study hanbali fiqh.

    only problem: in london uk, not much that I can find by way of hanbali teachers.. I dont suppose you know of or could find for me any that are highly recommended?

  227. Also to clarify what it means to being ‘connected to the kibaar’, it means basically that being in touch with them so that they know you etc etc. It’s pretty easy actually. The masjid has a listing of all the numbers of the mashaykh in the Kingdom..Abdul Azeez aal ash-Shaykh, Saalih aal-ash Shaykh, Saalih Al Fowzaan..and they have designated office hours when you can reach them.

    So when the brothers go to Saudia, they ask Shaykh so-and-so and he can be like “Yeah, I know Yasir Qadhi..go take from him”. For instance, you see with this w/ Shaykh Waseullah Abbaas and Dr. Suhaib Hasan. They used to do this with Abu Uwais as well..when you went to Saudia, they(the scholars) would say “Do you know Abu Uwais?” almost as a litmus test. Hope that made sense.

  228. ”another salafi”, you asked:

    how about in aqeedah, brother?

    I am an Ash’ari

    You also stated:
    only problem: in london uk, not much that I can find by way of hanbali teachers.. I dont suppose you know of or could find for me any that are highly recommended?

    What About Abu Eassa at: ?

    Also, isnt Ustadh Abu Aaliyah teaching Hanbali Fiqh? I dont know of anyone else there teaching it. For practicality, have you thought of studying Hanafi Fiqh? It is a beautiful Madhab and its sad that most salafis seem to have such an aversion to it. Im sure if you wanted to study it you would have no shortage of teachers in London.

    was salam

  229. Brother Umar interesting article.
    I would like to raise a question here about the importance of feeling a community connection. Having many people who think like you and getting a sense of purpose from such feelings. Although, such feelings are desirable they are not necessary; the purpose of Islam as I see it, is not to enable one to have a coherent indentity by providing a social group that gives you a sense of identity. Whenever, that is done it will lead to the ‘us’ vs ‘them’ mentality. The purpose is to go beyond that and have a coherent identity through the realization of our slavehood to Allah.

    Movements, like the salifiyyah, are bound to result in the kind of frustration people feel, who have in a way been orphaned, because of a breakdown in the movement. My point is that we should really form coherent and strong individual identities first, an individuality which is only achieved through total submission and understanding (in my experience the way of traditional Islam with heavy dosages of sciences of the heart). This whole story reminds me of another story, it was the time when our prophet(pbuh) passed away, and the muslims were in a state of shock and despair .. and then Abu bakr said:
    “O People! If Muhammad is the sole object of your adoration, then know that he is dead. But if it is Allah (The One God) you Worshiped, then know that He does not die.”

    He then recited the following verse from the Qur’an, 3:144, which was revealed after the Battle of Uhud:

    “Muhammad is no more than an Apostle: many were the Apostles that passed away before him. If he died or were slain, will you then turn back on your heels? If any did turn back on his heels, not the least harm will he do to Allah; but Allah (on the other hand) will swiftly reward those who (serve Him) with gratitude.”

    We need to reflect on these words … the salifi movement was just a movement .. it was not all of Islam.

  230. Rasheed, I would actually love to respond to you point by point but would it really make a difference? I do not think it would be a benefit to you or me. So much damage has been inflicted that it would be very difficult to overcome in this setting. Especially if you do not have the desire to overcome it and you are set in your ways.

    There is a huge variance of what I’ve witnessed here in the Kingdom and in other Muslim lands from amongst the Salafees and what I’ve witnessed in the US and the west in general. There is no other community of Salafees similar to those in the US as far as fitan is concerned. The distinguishing characteristic between all of these other communities and ours US is knowledge and sincerity.

    So yes, SOME of the brothers have made a mess of things but now I believe that mess is being perpetuated by those in the “We are with Shaykh Abdul Muhsin” circle (even though they have probably never heard him speak let alone sat with him) and the “former” salafees who want a little pay back.

    Now Rasheed I have to wonder. If we were to take all what you’ve alleged in this matter to Shaykh Abdul Muhsin himself would he see the same ironies that you’ve expressed? So yes, I must question your intentions. What is your goal here? Ijtimaa al-Kalima or ghaara thaalik?

    I believe this blog was set up to support a select few as well as destroy and malign a select few. Not even the Ahlul Ilm or rulers were spared which is clear through the use of a sneaky and methodical technique of al-madhu bil qadh to discredit them.
    And one actually wonders why he was led astray or is confused?!

    This forum is riddled with insult after insult regarding the sins of some of the duaat but where are the knowledge based principles? Who cares about those duaat? Bring your evidences that you’ve learned from those qualified to teach them and that is what we will debate with.

    Certainly this truth is only for those who desire it and seek it. If you do not then know that Allaah is Al-Aleem and I repeat the verse,

    “And it does not increase the Dhaalimeen except with loss”

    Allaahu Musti’aan!!!

  231. Akhee aboo abdullah U,

    Since you are in the Kingdom..please clarify this to me..many brothers who have gone overseas to Saudi to study for 6-8 month periods come back and claim that Shaykh Rabee is not used as a reference point at all…that he’s just propped up by us in the West, but he’s really just like a student of knowledge..and not from the kibaar ul ulemaa. The same for Shaykh Ubaid Al-Jaabiree. I don’t know about Shaykh Ahmad An-Najmee but from what I read on fatwa-online about his biography, it seemed that he is a major player in the field of ilm. So if you could clarify that for me, it would be appreciated. BarakAllaahu Feek.

  232. One small, but inshallah important step for increased inclusion of converts @ AlMaghrib/TDC

    A total of 15 scholarships are being offered for converts only for NJ & MD for the next 2 classes. Please see the following for the announcement:

    AlMaghrib Scholarships for Converts

    We can all thank Umar for sparking many ideas in many different areas.

  233. NEED HELP!
    As many of you may know, there is a new brother in Islam, Mayor Hakim Mansour of the city of Macon, GA. There are blogs that are attacking him… one quoted my blog. The blog attacking him has been mentioned by the city’s main newspaper.

    Pls see this story, and send a message of support to Br. Hakim. Also, pls engage with these hate-bloggers….

    The Mayor of Macon’s Conversion

  234. For the brother who was asking for Hanbali fiqh in the uk, Shaykh Haitham Al Haddad teaches a book called ‘manaar as sabeel’ on Hanbali fiqh in East London mosque. I have heard his classes are very beneficial and that he has gained a mastery in the field of fiqh (Allahu a’lam). Apparently, he was a student of ibn Uthaymeen and ibn Baaz, and has tazkiyyah’s from ibn Jibreen and ibn Aqeel. I know one of his students and Mashallah the brother has EXCELLENT character and manners, possibly a reflection of the teacher?

  235. I converted in high school and went to college in ’97 when all the fitnah was just about to climax. At the time I was “Salafi” because I didn’t know anything else– I knew the “whatever, anything goes” cultural Muslims, and then the “Sufis” who prayed to the Prophets and saints at graves which I *knew* was wrong (afterall, why else would I reject Catholicism?) and then there were the “Salafis” whose glossy and informative books were everwhere and who were really *serious* about religion. I also didn’t know enough to understand how Islam worked with differences of opinion on religious matters and believed the idea that everyone could be “unified” on one opinion for every issue. I think for most people like me this was the big draw– the idea that in our fracturedly diverse communities we might possibly all be able to unify on one thing. Yet I think it was also this idea that caused the Salafi downfall– when they found that they too developed inevitable differences of opinion they couldn’t handle it when their central thesis was that the madhaahib were wrong and “divisive” and that there would always be one clear choice that was “closer to the Sunnah”. Fortunately by mid-’98 I had seen enough of the infighting and the “you must call yourself a Salafi” and the “avoid speaker such-and-such” and the long lists of Arabic words I didn’t know the meanings of being passed around as insults LOL. I also started learning Arabic and started to see that the Salafi translations of Arabic were flat out wrong and were in fact ADDING things into the English text (with NO parentheses or anything) that weren’t even in the original– in some cases even when translating verses of the Qur’an! So by then I knew that I wasn’t a “Salafi” anymore but wasn’t really sure what to replace that with for a long time. Fortunately I then married a non-Salafi– but I remember crying and crying when he would try to explain to me the issues of madhabs and I just couldn’t GET the idea that following one madhab did not mean you *reject* the others– “How do I choose, how can I possibly know which one is closer to the Sunnah?” I would ask. I know one friend of mine eventually had a broken marriage over this issue but I don’t know about the others I’ve lost touch with.

  236. Aboo Sumiyyah,

    Barakallaahu Feekum, I would like to know what is meant by “not referred to?”

    Do you mean when lectures are given their names are not mentioned as reference points or do you mean no one is directed to take from them?

    In any instance they are both false. The scholars for the most part generally tend to quote from those who have passed such as Bin Baaz, Uthaymeen, Al-Albaanee, the four Imaams and so fourth. This is even the case in the lectures of Shaykh Rabee and Shaykh Ubaid. However when the need arises they will quote from one another from time to time depending on the situation or topic at hand. I have heard all of the mainstream scholars being used as a reference at some point or another.

    As far as their validity then I do not think it is even worth me defending considering those far greater than me in knowledge and virtue from our scholars have already done so. However to answer your question, from the Muftee on down Shaykh Rabee is considered from amongst the major scholars and the same goes for Shaykh Ubaid. I have been here for five years and simply have not seen this type of behavior amongst the Salafees here. I have never heard anyone from amongst the SALAFEES attempt to use “scholar” and “student” in an effort to belittle or downplay the virtue of any of our scholars or students. Now when I say the Salafees here, I am speaking of those who are always with the shayookh or their students and attend their lessons regularly. I am not necessarily speaking of westerners. At any rate, the scholars and their students respect and revere one another and they simply do not treat one another the way we treat one another in the west. Additionally, scholars tend to refer to one another as students of knowledge and like to be referred to as such.

    This sickness of “he’s only a student” is ridiculous as it has no bearing of the validity of one’s knowledge. Let us assume for a moment that they were “just students.” Are we to suggest that a student has no knowledge at all and cannot speak on issues of the religion? If this mere student speaks and he is in line with the truth and the scholars do we leave his knowledge? Of course not.
    This indiscretion and sickness was and is spread by the enemies of the Sunnah and by those in the west who have neither sat, spoken, or studied under any of the scholars or their students. For the most part they are individuals who have held on to their alliances after the likes of Shaykh Rabee and Shaykh Ubaid spoke. It only serves as yet another attempt to justify and substantiate what they may be upon.

    So Aba Sumiyyah, the lingering question you should ask yourself when confronted with such a misconception is why someone would actually try to make such a distinction in the first place and what is the intention behind it? It is nothing new that scholars are insulted, maligned, and belittled. It has happened for centuries and shall continue to happen. That being the case we should try to understand WHY it happens rather than feed into it.

    This will be my final comment on this board so if you require further clarity you can email me. I am sure someone out there has my email address.


  237. assalamu alaykum, hashi, did you get my email? i sent it to you and rasheed but not sure if i have your current email addresses…

    anyways, drop me a line at the same address of mine you had

    barakallahu feek

  238. Assalaamu alaikum br. Umar,

    May Allah reward you for the time and effort you put into writing this series.

    You can’t help getting emotional.

  239. Salams

    I really enjoyed reading this series of your writing. I’m a new muslim convert and Imam Zaid Shakir recommended that I read it because of it’s “100% applicability” to the life of new converts now.

    So, Thank you.

    May Allah ta’Allah take away the pain that you have left unresolved from such a letdown.


  241. As someone from the complete opposite end of the Muslim ummah spectrum from you self-confessed “Salafis” (I am a Maturidi in aqidah, Hanafi in fiqh, Naqshbandi in tariqah and a great admirer of Imam Ahmad Rida Khan alayhirahmaH) I have had experience of Salafites in the UK mostly when I was a student in London and also from their websites.

    I have to say that I always found these brothers to be keen to be judgmental, arrogant and self-righteous and, above all, full of anger. The first things I always heard were criticisms of other Muslims (let alone the non-Muslims) and the words, “bida’h” and “shirk” were bandied about at the slightest difference in point of view. Not every so-called Salafi I’ve known has been like that but the majority have been.
    There was never any love. Even when discussing Sira the emphasis is on the military campaigns! What I found abhorrant above all was the constant slandering and making takfir of other scholars–people such as Sidi Hamza Yusuf (who has probably brought more people to Ahlus Sunnah than anyone else in the West in the past 15 years) who were not Wahabi scholars.

    I’m a Muslim and they put me off their brand of Islam. Imagine how a non-Muslim must feel like?
    I am not surprised by the burnout though. If all you tell people is about ‘do this’ ‘dont do this’
    people will get BORED. People come to religion due to SPIRITUAL hunger. A religion without it is an empty shell and just rituals. This is what Wahabism is.

    Why do you brothers think that the Sufis have been so successful? That is a serious question.

    I pray Allah guides all of us to the love of his Habib sal Allahu alayhi wa sallam.

  242. I’m probably going to be called a mushrik Sufi Barelwi now, a deviant Asharite etc.

    The Quran and the Messenger both warned against going to extremes in religion and that is what Wahabism is.

    Once I was praying maghrib with an Algerian “Salafite” and after the Salah I read some salawat on the Prophet. This was from a book published in Saudi Arabia and the words were something like, “O Allah help me through the wasila of Your beloved Prophet”. The brother went ballistic. He said this is SHIRK! Even the other Wahabi-inclined brothers were surprised by him. I simply stayed silent and left after a while of his rantings and sadly never went to see him again.
    You talk about Ibn Taymiiya a lot, but Hafez Ibn Taymiyyah has also written many books which I can praise without any problem since we are taught that Muslims are just and should be judicial. He was a member of the Qadriyya Sufi Order. Fact. It is in his Fatawa published in Arabia. But Salafites wont believe it. Why don’t you translate his book on the maqaam of the Prophet?

  243. What have you got against the likes of Shaykh Hamza, Shaykh GF Haddad, Shaykh Ninowy, Shaykh N H M Keller, Sh. Sayyid Habib Ali etc.? Is it just jealousy at their success? Listen to a speech of any of the above at random. Then listen to any speech on the same topic by one of the well-known Salafi speakers and see the difference in tone and style.

    Which one will a neutral be drawn to? There is one Salafi bro who I like listening to but he is a convert on the Unity Channel, dont know his name.
    He is GENTLE. He doesn’t call other people names.

  244. BTW assalamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatahu to everyone on here—before you someone say’s “Notice he didn’t write a salam. He must think we’re kafirs!” I just forgot.

    Peace. :-)

  245. Disbelief of Governments & the ruling (fatwa) on fighting them…..

    Shaikh ul-Islaam Ibn Taymiyyah said: “and it is known from the religion (of islam) by necessity and by the consensus (ijmaa) of all the Muslims that whoever legalizes to follow other than the religion of Islaam or a Shari’ah other than the Shari’ah of Muhammad (sallallahu alayhe wa salam) he is a disbeliever and his disbelief is similar to that of the one who believes in some part of the book (Quran) and rejects some of it” {Al-Fataawa, Volume 28, page 524}

    Ibn Taymiyyah also said {Al-Fataawa: Volume 28, Pages 510 – 512): “Every group which rebels against mutawaatir (clear-cut), law of the Islamic Shari’ah must be fought by the consensus (ijmaa) of all the Imaams (leaders) of Muslims, even if they pronounce the Shahaada (declaration of faith). So if they attest the Shahaadah and refuse to perform the five prayers, then they must be fought until they perform them (the prayers: and if they refuse to pay Zakaah, then they must be fought until they pay it, and so must they be (fought) if they refuse to fast in the month of Ramadhan or perform Hajj. Likewise if they refuse to prohibit fawaahish (evil deeds), zina (adultery), maysar (gambling), khamr (wine), and the other things which Shari’ah forbids. Also they must be fought if they refuse to judge between themselves in the affairs of murder, money, honous, marriage and so on by the Quraan and the Sunnah, or if they abstain from al-amr bil ma’roof wan nahi ‘anil munkar (enjoining good and forbidding evil), fighting the disbelievers until they accept Islaam or pay the Jiziah in order to abase the disbelievers. Likewise if they manifest atheism in Allah’s name, belying his verses, his attributes, decree and destiny and what the Jam’ah (group) of Muslims were upon during the time of the rightly guided Khulafaa (plural of Khaleef) or insulting the early Muhajireen (those who migrated to Madinah with the prophet sallallahu alayhe wa salam and the Ansaar (the Helpers – from the city of Madinah) and those who followed them, or fighting Muslims until they obey them in a way that will cause the Muslims to rebel against the Islamic Shari’ah and the like of these things, Allah (ubhana wa Ta’ala) says:

    ‘And fight then until there is no fitnah (disbelief and polytheism, worshipping others besides Allah) and the religion (worship) will all be for Allah (in the whole world)’ {Surat Al-Anfaal:39}

    So if a part of the religion is for Allah and another is for other than him, fighting is obligatory until the religion is for Allah (alone). Allah (subhana wa Ta’ala) says:

    ‘O you who believe! Fear Allah and give what remains (due to you) from Riba (usury) if you (really) are believers, and if you do not do it, then take a notice of war from Allaah and His Messenger’ {Surat Al-Baqarah: 278/279}

    This verse was revealed about ahl at-Taif (the people of Taif) who embraced Islaam, prayed and fasted, but they were dealing with usury, which was the final prohibition in the Quraan and it is a money taken by the satisfaction of the dealers. So if the person who does not abstain from it is at war with Allaah and Messenger (sallallahu alayhe wa salam), what about those who abandon several Islamic laws or most of them, such as the Tartars?” {Al-Fataawa: Volume 28, Pages 510 – 512)

  246. Know that I am saddened by the story,
    A trail blazed by the righteous, robbed of some glory
    Band wagoneers jump ship once the weather gets stormy.
    I sink with the haqq, no need to feel sorry for me
    In the thick until it wears thin, I still grin
    At faces that smile back but have hatred undigested within
    Bellies filled with backbitten flesh of brethrens
    Everyone’s got a blog with something to say lets join in
    Allaah tests those whom He loves cause He knows they won’t clamour
    So it saddens me to see we got a lot of cry babies out there….

  247. I think we should not expect – the “Dawah of the Quraan and Sunnah” to be dominant in the United Snakes of America a nation hostile to Islaam and the call of tawheed, especially in this day and age.

    And should not be suprised that in this land – sufism, asharism and this traditionlism and all other ism’s that the kuffar really wish the Muslims to be upon especially its governement is on the rise in this country.

  248. as salaam alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa baraktuhu

    Even Muslims from America think the world revolves around whats going on in America. I am in Canada and mashallaah there are brothers herw who command the truth and enjoin righteousness. You think because Muslims come under attack you cut and run. No. Pull up your pants or tighten up your niqaab and dig the trenches. When you enter Islam you enter it fully and i would as a revert I would not say I have anything in common with your perspectives. Maybe it is because my family is Bosnian and I am not labeled just some white convrert, i dont know. But what I do know is this the best of the Muslims are the first 3 generations. Follow the Salaf and stick to it. I bet some or most of you are being swayed away by the sufi movements in the US that increased in popularity in after 9/11. The Prophets of Allaah went through harder trials then you and never gave up calling to the truth. I highly suggest you people to go to Saudi Arabia and find out what the aqeedah and manhaj the Saudi’s are upon. You go to a halaqah and they will call you to following the salaf. Being Muslim is not easy especially if you dont come from a Muslim family and you have your own issues but deal with the. The Prophets own parents are destined for the Hell-Fire. The methodology of the Salaf is haqq all the scholars of Ahlus-sunnah testify to this. stay away from these deviants like hamza yusuf who calls to the way of the sufi. I have an idea this is why the Muslims in the US are drifting. You feel afriad to be Muslim, you have the media manipulating the masses and you have Muslims ignorant of their religion telling you about what islam “is”. I dont know where you get that “salafis” isolate themselves from their disbelievinig family. the manhaj of the salaf is to follow the quran and sunnah and it is against Islam to cut ties with kin. I dont care what someone tells you who claims to be salafi your problem is you never checked the sources to find proof for what they say. there are sufis who claim to be salafis and there are those who claim usama ibn ladin is a salafi which he is not because he is of the khawariji. I hope Allaah azza wa jall guides you all from your weakness if your eman and ilm. there will always be a group amongst the muslims who call to the truth and until the day of judgement it will be those who adhere to the ways of the salaf.

  249. Salam alaykum,

    Baarakallahu feek yaa Abaa Abdlaah U…..

    وَإِذَا سَمِعُوا اللَّغْوَ أَعْرَضُوا عَنْهُ وَقَالُوا لَنَا أَعْمَالُنَا وَلَكُمْ أَعْمَالُكُمْ سَلَامٌ عَلَيْكُمْ لَا نَبْتَغِي الْجَاهِلِينَ

  250. abdusSalaam – you linked to that amreekan webpage, make hijra or shut up – having lost a muslim friend and brother on 9/11, I have no patience with that garbage, particularly parasites who sit on american soil while talking filth about how all americans are kufaar – same with ali above, who says the saudis are on the correct ‘minhaj’- you mean raping little children is part of that? while I was in Saudi, I would often get asked if I was from the ‘land of the kufaar,’ and I would have to restrain the urge to grab the questioner’s head and beat it against the wall, while telling them their own high rates of zina, homosexuality, drug use, lieing, deceit…

    since some of you can’t check yourselves, you’ll wreck yourselves. and don’t go blaming ‘soofis’ or your favorite boogeymen, America and Israel, for that, your inability to understand your own faults.

  251. Assalamu Alikum

    Akhi Dawud:

    “America indeed is the head of Kufr, atheism and the central base of corruption and moral decay – it is the land of shame, crime, vile filth, and evil. The Shaytān has indeed nested upon it and placed his shrine in it.

    Statistically, it is the most populous in whore houses, homosexuality, lesbianism, nude bars, pregnancies out of wedlock, children born out of wedlock, incest, crimes of character, television stations of moral deprivation, consumption of alcohol, clubs of frivolous activities, gambling, dancing, and various forms of corruption. Here, I shall mention a small amount of the statistics that point to what I have said, while you should be aware of the fact that these statistics are old.”
    (Extracts of Shaykh Naasir Al Fahd from his book: “The Exposition Regarding the Disbelief of the one that Assists the Americans”)

    It is a nation founded upon the skulls of the “red indian race” and built by slavery by millions of kidnapped African slaves.

    Not to mention the millions of people it has systematically butchered and killed both – muslim and non-muslims across the world and its continous export of its corruption throughout the globe.

    Lets get things in perspective.

    I dont think those massacred by the United Snakes of America such as the Iraqis and Afghanis have patience for “parasites” who may have “khawarij tendencies” to defend kuffar.

  252. were the muslims who worked in the WTC responsible for any of that – the invasions of foreign lands, killing of ‘red indians,’ or the moral decay?

    plenty of arabs, pakistanis, and Indonesians have raped and killed: the history of the khwarij and ismai’lis, and Qarmatians and Ibadis and what-not – not to mention the moral status of the Arab world, where you’re more likely to meet with pedophiles and homosexuals than you are in America… does that justify slaughtering them en masse?

    Have you not read ibn Taymiyya or the fatwas of the classical ulema on the injustice of killing even one innocent person to punish 99? Have you not read the Prophet’s injunctions, and the Righteous Khulafaa abu Bakr and Umar (radhi Allahu anhum) orders not to kill “women, children, old men, worshippers… not to harm even a green tree” – basically, no one who hasn’t picked up a weapon against you?

    I will judge not just you, but anyone who defends this garbage, harshly – and may you meet the justice you so encourage for others, may Allah preserve this deen and enlighten you and your bigoted Khawarij brethren, “who take a true word and use it for a false purpose” (Righteous Caliph and Imam Ali, karam Allahu wajahu) and “take that of the Qur’an which applies to the disbelievers and apply it to the muslims”…

    or do you not acknowledge that there are muslims and innocent people inside the US? or the crimes of muslims and arabs? who kills more palestinians, their ‘arab brethren’ jordanians or israelis? answer honestly…

  253. as-Salâm ‘alaikum wa rahmatullah,

    I’m not sure if you remember me Dawud, but I’m the Filipino brother who you used to see at Shabir Ally’s da’wah centre in Toronto.

    Just one thing regarding what you said here: “ … not to mention the moral status of the Arab world, where you’re more likely to meet with pedophiles and homosexuals than you are in America” (Bold mine).

    I don’t doubt that these things exist in Saudi—in fact, I know they do—but I highly doubt its to the extent you’re making it out to be. Do you have any evidence to back up your assertion here? Or are you just talking out of your behind?

  254. Assalam u alaykum,
    Abd al Mustafa, this is from a non-salafi. Most muslims would not use that name. The sahaba did not name their kids abd al-mustafa, they named them abdAllah or abdal-Rahman, etc. I don’t agree with all what the salafi’s do or say. There’s a masnoon way of saying darood. From where I come from, people would recite darood (bless the family of Muhammad s.a.w., as you blessed the family of Ibraheem a.s.), on and on, and sing praises of the rasool, but you still have to stick to the aqeedah. What many neo-salafis do is extreme, but so do you. Besides, I have a lot of respect for Imam Zaid Shakir, and Shaikh Hamza Yusuf but I haven’t heard them mix up the aqeedah.

  255. I pray to allah that the salfis outside the ‘supersalafis’ group should unite, depend on Allah, and prove that this Dawah never dies, with the will of Allah.

  256. salam alaykum,


    The label “super salafi” is not correct and has been addressed in the past. It is better for us (The general ppl) to stay away from labeling those who have not been labeled by the Scholars of Islam. May Allah accept your duaa and may he also correct all the Muslims understanding of Salafiyyah…..Ameen

  257. brother qawukzi,

    I do not mix up the aqeedah insha allah. Please can you tell me where it says in the Qur’an or Sunnah that is is haram to name oneself Abd al Mustafa since the word abd has two meanings–one of them being a manservant. On the contrary, the Qur’an says, addressing the Prophet:

    Qul: Ya ‘Ibaadi…Say(O Prophet): Oh my servants [ibaad]. And Sayyidina Mawla Ali alayhisalam said to the people of Yemen: Ana abeedum min ibaadi Muhammad. (I am a slave from amongst the slaves of Muhammad). And Sayyidina Umar radhi Allahu anhu called himself as an ‘abd’ of the Prophet.

    The great Shaykh and Sufi scholar of Ahlus Sunnah, Sayyid Yusuf al-Nabahani has a poem wherein in he says: I am a slave of the slaves of the Prophet….


  258. La howla wala quwatta illa billah…

    as if these moral corruptions/social ills don’t exist in western world!!
    At least the Arabs (muslim Arabs) believe in Allah and his messenger which makes them far better then socially ‘civilized’ disbelivers.

    In any case, I was listening to Sh. Yasir Qadhi’s cds on ‘the life of Muhammad (sallalahu alihi wasalam) and he was explaining that regardless of the social corruption Arabs had at that time (alcohol, womanizing, gambling etc. etc.), they still had characteristics that made them worthy enough to get the BEST human being from among their nation and from among themselves. It was very interesting…I never thought about this point.
    InshaAllah I will be posting those characteristics on my blog (YES! I joined the blog world too :) )

  259. Umm Reem, if you have difficulty with clearly written english – sinning doesn’t justify slaughtering arabs, just as it doesn’t justify slaughtering ‘westerners’ – unless you’re a Khariji, who views any sin as taking one ‘out of Islam’ – as they clearly are. Takfir wal Hijra, or Zawahiri and ‘ánsar al-tawheed wal jihad’ fans, take note.

    but if you had difficulty with that condemnation, Umm Reem, think of how I feel when I think of my muslim friend, who died in the WTC, and his family, who has to listen to terrorist apologist morons in the masjid. Get a life!

  260. Umm Reem,
    I love the smell of bullshit Arabist racial superiority propaganda in the morning. You could just as easily say the Arabs got the rasulullah (saws) because they needed him the most, i.e. they were among the worst on earth. Arab society is not some magical paradise beloved of Allah above all others. When are you people going to realize that?

    Dawud, THAT YOU for adding some sanity to the discussion here.

  261. You’re welcome, DA –

    I wanted to add one last thing: as regards treatment of minorities, africans and bengalis, I would challenge anyone to tell me with a straight face that muslim africans and south-east asians are treated better in arab or muslim lands than they are in America… if you believe that, you’re on crack.

    A black friend, who had ancestors from the ‘old south,’ told me that life in Saudi reminded him of what his grandparents spoke about – and as for Ugandan university graduates, who could easily be professors anywhere else… is the behaviour of the Saudis according to the Salaf us-Salih?

    Very simple question: Is Saudi run under the Qur’an and Sunnah?

    Second simple question: Who’s killed more arabs, i) America and Israel (for all their crimes)
    ii) Arab tyrants and dictators, such as Jordan and Egypt’s dictators? (speaking of gitmo, don’t the arab lands have a few of those? prisons where muslims get tortured, Islam gets mocked, and families don’t know what’s happened to their sons and daughters?)

  262. Asalamu alaikum

    How did these posts degenerate to someone justifying using the name “Abd AlMustafa” and defending/defaming arabs?

    Abd, at the very least you could have made reference to where that verse is and its explanation.You could have done the same for Ali (May Allah be pleased with him).

    THere is a hadeeth that is Hasan that is collected by ibn abee Shaibah that a man was asked,”What is your name” The man said AbdulHajr. THe messenger of Allah said to him “Verily you are Abdullah”. We see the Messenger of Allah was quick to change his name because this name goes against the basic beliefs of Islam as does Abd AlMustafa.

    May Allah guide us to what is correct.ameen

  263. Asalaamu alaikum

    It is important to try our best to keep with good manners when we type out our opinions. DA there is no need to curse and become upset because you do not agree with the sisters comments.

    As for Dawud it seems either you have lived in an Arab country and had a bad experience or you have had bad experiences with arabs in America or wherever you are live.

    Akhi relax and dont get all bent out of shape about the “Arabs” or “Asians” or who ever else you have an issue with. Yes, there are arabs an arab countries that have oppressed people and we should ask Allah to guide them.

    We should not be blinded by our emotions and say things that are inappropriate.

    I wonder if the government of Saudi Arabia was to invite you on a free hajj would you come?

  264. Dawud: I was referring to your this statement above:
    “…, who says the saudis are on the correct ‘minhaj’- you mean raping little children is part of that? while I was in Saudi, I would often get asked if I was from the ‘land of the kufaar,’ and I would have to restrain the urge to grab the questioner’s head and beat it against the wall, while telling them their own high rates of zina, homosexuality, drug use, lieing, deceit”

    –I don’t think I was having difficulty reading English here…

    And I wasn’t even talking about declaring ‘takfir’ upon anyone. In fact, my whole point was that a MUSLIM, no matter what level of a sinner he/she maybe, is still better then a someone who hates Allah and His Messenger (sallallahu alaihi wasalam).

    Seems like you are quite abrupt in labeling people.

    I think our ‘wala wal bara’ is a bit too weak here.

    DA: Looking at your adaab, I’m not even going to reply.

    For everyone else, before anyone misunderstands, I wasn’t giving Arabs any ‘racial superiority’ (read my post above). I was just stating the facts that they did have GOOD QUALITIES too, to inherit a Prophet from among them . I am not talking about current goverments, politics etc. etc.

  265. right – any muslim? what about those in the WTC? or who have been bombed and killed by Zarqawi and crew in Iraq?

    I think your ‘wala wal bara’ is weak, if you prefer ‘muslim-slaughtering’ “muslims” – shall I ask you what the hadith tell us about someone who kills a believer? or the Quran?

    You like murdering scum? I can tell you I have no love for the murderers from the Pentagon or Tel Aviv, but you’re admitting to love them if they’re from Riyadh? What kind of desecration do they have to get up to before you don’t like them?

    I respect the Arabs who don’t murder, slaughter, and rape little children – those who leave Islam, and commit the above crimes, I have no love for.
    Their Islam is between them and Allah, but you want me to love them?

    Confess that someone who worked in the WTC could still be a muslim, just as much as the child-molestors and murdering psychotics of ‘Tawheed wal Jihad’ or write me a message about how evil the “usury-endorsing” computer programmers and floor cleaners who worked there were, so I can send it to my friends’ wife and family… you let me know.

  266. salaams, Isa:

    a simple question: you do know the fiqh of Hajj, and that they have to be made on Halal-earned money? Not Sadaqa? I would accept an invitation by any of the lawful businessmen in the country, of which there are many – but not on Aramco cash, and not to sit around in some palace while Africans and Indonesians – muslims, btw – are frying outside in the heat, no… but I guess some of you don’t extend ‘wala wal bara’ to the poor and weak muslims, perhaps? Not unless they’ll “pay for your hajj”…

    Perhaps, Isa, you don’t care – but some of us worked our way to make our Hajj, and we can only hope that Allah accepts it. Perhaps some of us have taken more difficult jobs, avoided riba, and perservered in studying this deen while avoiding the Haraam… insha Allah, we will only be happy with His Pleasure, not yours or the Saudis or the Americans, or anyone else’s.

    Difficult to understand?

  267. Assalamu Alaikum,

    Akhi “Dawud”

    You are a perfect example of the “sad pathetic state” that some Muslims in the US – have become due to living amongst the “Harbi kuffar” in “content” and pleasure for so long……

    “Bad mannerism” probably due to the excess imitation of the kuffar leading to hardness of the heart leading to harshness with Muslims and “having bad opinions” with regards to them while gentleness and “having good opinions” for kuffar.

    Too much “fox news” has indeed blured ur world perception and insight into current affairs – Slandering the Mujahidin and attributing false things to them which the zionists/crusaders feed the world.

    Indeed we find the characteristics of the real “khawarij” in such persons:

    “they leave the disbelievers and make permisable the blood of the Muslim”

    So we see from their like saying there is no kitaal with the kuffar or the murtadeen and then see their hearts fill with joy with the killings of the leaders of the Mujahidin (Such as Abu Musab)……………we see them fill with joy with the same breath as when the kuffar from amongst the mushrikeen, such as the zionist-christian enity, the hindus, and supporters of the new world order, its adherents and leaders filled with joy with the death of the Mujahid leaders (such as Abu Musab)………………….contemplate ikhwaan on this.

    It is due to this “Uncle Tom” or “House-Nigger” attitude that has got the Ummah to this sorrow state.

    Face the facts:

    “Never will the Jews nor the Christians be pleased with you (O Muhammad Peace be upon him ) till you follow their religion.” (Al-Baqarah 2:120)

    No one says that there are no Muslims in America

    No one says that there are no problems amongst the Arabs and Muslims

    But to imply that Amercia is somehow better than the Muslims or equal to them in corruption is the “zionist garbage” that is killing your brain cells day by day.

    With regards to the shari evidence in backing the “equal-retaliation” operations of the Mujahidin – I would simply ask for one to simply “sincerely” research in this affair and one would easily find it. We do not deny those ahadeeth regarding the prohibitions but in specific siuations and circumstances it is permitted and these circumsatnces are best known to the Mujahidin.

    But as someone quoted before in another post:

    “Finally we say, the case is not settled by long lists of quotations or the bringing forward of witnesses. Rather, the matter is referred to the heart. If Allah gives it light it will see the truth, in which everything is apparent. Otherwise, if the hearts are darkened they will not see.

    “…Verily, it is not the eyes that grow blind, but it is the hearts which are in the breast that grow blind.” (Soorat Al Hajj: 46.)”

    The vision of the heart is for evidences, and the signs of the Lord are for cultivating Taqwa, obedience and enthusiasm for acts of worship.”
    – Shaykh Abdullah Azzam

    So first and foremost we should pray to keep our chests open for guidance.

    Labelling people with “khawarij” is an easy way to divert people away from the truth, and the people of deviation followed the same strategy with regards to Shaykh Muhammad Abdul Wahhab and the ulema of Najd. And is known that the “Murjia” would label Ahlus Sunnah “Khawarij”,………….and know my brothers:

    Shaikhul-Islam Ibn Taymiyyah (RH) in Kitab Al-Iman,pp 382-3, stated:

    “Ibraheem an-Nakha’ee once said that the dissention and strife introduced by the Murji’te sect posed a greater danger to the Islamic community than that aroused by the Azaariqites (1). And according to az-Zuhree, there has never arisen a heresy more harmful to Islaam and its adherents than that of the Murji’ites”. (End of statement)

    (1) Azaariqites : The most extreme wing of the Khawarij, they held that anyone who commited major sins is a disbeliever and could not re-ener the faith, therefore should be killed along with his wives and children!!!!!!!

    “And be afraid of the Day when you shall be brought back to Allâh. Then every person shall be paid what he earned, and they shall not be dealt with unjustly.” (Al-Baqarah 2:281)

    May Allah (SWT) Guide us to abide by His Deen, and to adhere to His Messenger’s Sunnah, and to be among those whom He Blessed in both lives.

  268. Asalaamu alaikum

    My point was that you have alot of animosity towards the “Arab countries” but if they were nice enough to invite you, as they invite people from all over the world (poor nigerians and Bangalis as well)to make Hajj your anger would blind you to take up that offer. This has nothing to do with if you came with your hard earned cash etc, my point is stop looking at things in a negative manner.

    May Allah cure us from our sicknesses and guide us to what pleases him.ameen

    I was a bit confused about what you said about not being permissible to take the invitation but if some honest person invited you then you would come.

    You may want to to a bit more research on this issue akhi before you claim that someone can not come on Hajj in this manner.

    leaders of the Mujahidin (Such as Abu Musab) Please akhi, May Allah guide you, he was not a leader of anything or anyone except his little band of misguided followers. Look at yourself first before you start talking about others faults. I believe you need to check your manners as well.

    These posts have degenerated so I hope we can stick to the topic or leave it alone.

  269. As-salaamu ‘alaikum wa rahmatullaahi wa barakaatu,

    Does anyone else here find all these comments ironic, to say the least, considering what the original post that Umar wrote was all about?

    Not to mention completely and utterly depressing. Come on, people… read these comments and think about how the angels on our shoulders are busy recording what our fingers have been typing. Think about standing in front of Allah on the Day of Judgement and answering to Him about what we’ve said here.

    I have only one request of you, my elder brothers and sisters in Islam: Please, let us deal with each other in a manner that Allah and His Messenger (sallallaahu ‘alaihi wa sallam) would be pleased with.
    Disagree with each other, sure – but do so nicely. Pretty please.

    Your little sister in Islam,

  270. As salamu alaykum br. Omar,
    Your expose is interesting and offers a good deal of information. I too am a revert, converting from Judaism years ago and no longer a young man. I was not part of the early Salafee movement nor was caught up in the fracas that defined ‘salafee on salafee’ crime that we have witnessed over the past several years. I did go through a period of confusion over this issue in terms of following what was (is) correct in terms of being as close to correct Islamic practice (and life) as I could get, i.e. as you put it being “on it” and I believe this is the quest of many sincere believers. It took me some time to come to grips with confidence that what I felt was actually correct. And this refers to not having to be a ‘member’ of a particular group to exclusion of all other Muslims or more succinctly, being of those who are of the “saved sect”. Well, I came through it and feel confident about how I understand Islam. Age and life experience does play an important role in ones understanding of Deen, assuming that one is seeking nearness to Allaah in the manner exceptable to Him, and according the methodology of His blessed Messenger Muhammad (sallahu alayhe wa sallam). The state of affairs for the Muslims in general is sad to say the least but should not put a believer off in seeking the correct knowledge and application of this knowledge in this life. I reject the term moderate as it is just one of the terms coined by the disbelievers and abused by Muslims of varying stripes to marginalize believers. Just as the ‘super salafees’ demanded ‘card carrying proof’, so to speak, of ones affiliation with salafeeya, so do the kufaar who call the ‘good Muslims’ or ‘acceptable Muslims’, “moderates” are demanding we, as Muslims declare our affiliations. I will not do that. What is disturbing is the effects of extremism. One who is extreme often abandons his/her extreme view, as they are often difficult to maintain over a long period of time, only to go to another extreme generally opposite of their intial extremism, thus, some ended up as sufis or even apostates. I see this often in Muslims who are addicted to substances. Once clean for a short period of time, some become ‘super righteous’, suddenly straightening all the Qurans in the masjid, wearing a thobe, qutra (w/o aqal or head ring), grinning incessantly, etc., but, he may not have prayed for for several years, left fasting for drugs, stole, etc., for his habit and suddenly, he is the picture of piety. Well, in a short time he relapses because he can’t maintain this false and newly adopted lifestyle. It must come in stages with understanding, correct application, intention and committment. This is not dissimiliar to your depiction of those ‘who jumped ship’ over the fitna of hajr and the like. Insha Allaah, these brothers and sisters will find their steady state with help and guidance of Allaah.
    Regarding the issue of calling oneself salafee is not irrelevant but definately should be placed in the proper context. The term itself should not be abandoned nor reach the level of being a ‘dirty word’ as some deviant Muslims and group portend it to be and again, it is another one of the weapons to weed out ‘who’s with us or against us’ mentality of the enemies of Allaah and the believers. I think this also speaks of a lack of confidence amongst the Muslims of the strength of their beliefs. Again, I will not abandon it because of the fitan that has occurred.
    In the end, I hope what you wrote will serve as positive information that will unite and unity begins with correct belief. And, I hope that it will also serve the revert community. I agree, many issues are ignored amongst the Muslims, which is only to our detriment. Perhaps this blog will help start a constructive dialogue.

  271. I love the way Muslims spit racism, inflammatory statements and slander and then when you call them on it suddenly they accuse you of lacking adab.

    Fuck you guys. You deserve to fry in hell for the hypocracy, racism, and nationalism in your lying hearts.

    How’s THAT for adab?

  272. Just look at this bull. This is the classic behavior of people going into destruction. They will keep fighting amongst themselves over things they have no business in. The regular Arab/Asian has nothing to do with the Saudi elites. And people like DA or Dawud have little to gain from the system. But we’ll fight and fight over petty personal egos while seeing our world collapse before our eyes. Abdus salaam’s views are have been shared by no other commentor. Not even the epitome of the “problematic arab” like Abdullah Azzam’s son shares these views. Abdus salaam: do us a favor, keep quiet and think.

    You want to talk about racism? As far as I’ve seen on many pages, it is brought up in two hypocritical ways:-
    * Non AA immigrant muslims calling white america for its racism. Message: AA’s and the surviving natives seem to get along pretty well and serve in the US army in Iraq. Lets just set our own house in order. If there’s no racism here, good for the US. If there is and the victim likes it, good for them also – they get what they deserve.
    * Ethnically “pure” Americans calling Arabs racist over its treatment of Asians. Yes, there’s a problem there, but its no excuse to bring it up while defending Israel, or the Iraqi invasion. You know who was the first one to say that the way Arabs torture has brought them outside the fold of Islam? Qutb.

    Guys, I am not attacking any of you personally. Most of you haven’t actually said all these things. And even if we disagree on something, we agree on something else. Lets keep things in perspective and lets not allow our differences make us look down on each other as human beings. If reading this doesn’t make you want to calm down, then just disregard this. I am sorry I am not as patient or as nice as AnonyMouse. I can’t help it. I’ve already deleted half the stuff I wrote because I thought it would only make more trouble.

  273. As Salaamu ‘Alaikum

    Brother Umar I can’t begin to tell you what a superb anaylisis you offered on the rise and fall of the Salafi dawa. As one who was not a part of that movement but admired some aspects of it, part of is glad that it finally imploded. I live here in New Jersey near E.O. and I can tell you first hand that the Salafi community left in its wake untold shattered lives. Sisters on welfare with 4 or five babies in tow. Brothers wandering around like crack addicts or junkies looking for their next fix., families destroyed and their connection with the broader community of extended family and community relationships shattered. Those of us who were not a part of the salafi community but still saw them as our brothers and sisters in Al-Islam were made to feel like we were the worst kafirs. In essence it was more like a gang and and those niggers was doing nothing more than running game. Yes they may have had the outward appearance down pat ( if you want to look more arab than the arab) and tried to persue knowledge (usually for self-serving purposes to beat up non salafis over the head with); but their character was straight up ghetto 21st century slave plantation nigger. This is not to paint all with the same brush; but the vast majority of them suffered from that disease. There was absoluty NO purification of the heart, mind and soul as was so superbly done during the time of The Real Salafis of the Prophet’s (SAW) generation. To tell you the truth brother I’m glad it’s gone given the tremendous social damage it did. I saw it from its inception and knew many brothers and sisters who were a part of that community. Few of us became good friends and I got to see up close and personal the impact that it had. It really was nothing new to me cause as a student of history I’d seen it all before. I plan on coming to the St. Louis area within the next few months ( I have family there) and I would be most honored if we could hook up and explore this discussion further. In studying your anaylesis there are some insights and perspectives that I’d like to explore with you. I personally don’t go for the label thing as to what type of muslim I am. The Prophet (PBUH) and his companions NEVER declared themselves to be nothing more than MUSLIMS period!!!!!

    Keep up the tremendous work brother and may Allah T’ala richly reward you well. You will see my email so let’s keep in touch.

    I Remain Your Brother in Al-Islam

  274. Akhi Umar, I hope you will remove the profanity. It has no place on this blog or any other decent blog. We may have strong opinions and disagreements, but we cannot let that overcome our sensibilities.

  275. This is one of the best accounts on the salafi dawah I have read in my life. I want to say though that I think the Sufis and other groups were just as guilty (perusing their attacks after attacks on salafis) as TROID/Spubs/etc to spread fitnah and attacks. However I am still sticking with AlMaghrib because I believe these scholars are more moderate.

  276. Assalaam’aalaikum,

    In response to Abu Abdillah U, do you not think the fitnah amongst the brothers would have been resolved a LOT quicker if the likes of Sheikh Abdul Mohsin and others would have spoken out strongly against it in its inception (such as in the times of the 4 imams of the last century who could be credited with holding back this fitnah)?

    I remember clearly the day those many years ago discussing this with a brother and he said “All it needs is a strong pronouncement from the kibaar to quell this” and as true as he said it-once Sheikh Abdul Mohsin and others picked up on denouncing extremism, it was on its way down.

    Now-why can’t we be honest and say that – AS MEN who can also make mistakes, the kibaar ulema failed the ummah on this front?


  277. Assalaam’aalaikum,

    In response to Abu Abdillah U, do you not think the fitnah amongst the brothers would have been resolved a LOT quicker if the likes of Sheikh Abdul Mohsin and others would have spoken out strongly against it in its inception (such as in the times of the 4 imams of the last century who could be credited with holding back this fitnah)?

    I remember clearly the day those many years ago discussing this with a brother and he said “All it needs is a strong pronouncement from the kibaar to quell this” and as true as he said it-once Sheikh Abdul Mohsin and others picked up on denouncing extremism, it was on its way down.

    Now-why can’t we be honest and say that – AS MEN who can also make mistakes, the kibaar ulema failed the ummah on this front?

    Wa as salaam

  278. Assalamu alaikum,

    Brother, I am yet to read what you wrote, but I skimmed through the first part and the comments written after the last one. I’m ..(don’t know what word to use) see that you have noticed what I also noticed about the movement. However, I stopped attending conferences many years before 9/11, and it was then that I disbelieved in the TROID and SP line of thought (that of the agent al-Madkhali and al-Jami), and just after 9/11 did I realize the truth about Bin Baz (not a shaikh worth mention) and Ibn Uthaymeen (a coward who “signs” on fatwas when the Saudi king orders him to).

    I just want to say that the Salafi movement is the movement of the Islamic religion, all else is corrupted one way or another. Some get very close to the real Islam, but others are way way far off (like the Sufis). I’ve also noticed brothers and Imams with ‘big beards’ trim them or shave them completely (I won’t talk about myself here, but I didn’t change a thing about my ‘salafiness’, I am as I always was before 9/11 even). I’d have to say that the Salafis only went ‘underground’ (as they are believed to be the moving soldiers of al-Qaeda, at least with the thoughts they carry in their brains).

    But it is us who will triumph, because we are the one and only true Islam, and Allah promised that His light will fill the earth!!! Now you can’t expect the loose Ikhwani methodology or the kufri Sufi crooked path to lead to that light!!! We’ve gone underground, and we’re not sorry, it’s a tactic. The enemy is vicious, and the apostates are on their guard too. There is a hadith by the Prophet (pbuh) which tells us that there will come a day when the real believers will not know where to go to escape persecution!!! Another hadith tells us that there will be time when people will say “it is not time for jihad” but I say [that’s the Prophet talking] it is the best time of jihad!!! But such hadiths are ‘buried’ in our huge, classical books, which we don’t have or never read…

    The cowards, our enemies, let them do all they want, we’ll still be in cyberspace, and we are forming today the nucleus of the emerging Caliphate, and let them all choke to death from vexing, the Mahdi will not be from among them, but from among us, we are Orthodoxy and they are heresy. It’s only a phase, like what the pagan Makkans did to the first Muslims in Makkah before migration to Madinah.

    Assalamu alaikum,
    The Caliph’s Sword

  279. Now that we have read this good exprssive emotional analysis, we can see clearly that those who self-appointed themselves as guardian of he salafi da’wah are the culprits, who are responsible for this mess; not onlyin this world ; rather in the next too. “Whoso does a good work shall be rewarded for it, and whoso does an evil work shall requited for it.”

  280. Thank you for writing this… definitely insightful…especially reading it from the perspective of one of those 1st generation in america- son of south asian immigrants. I think what I witnessed was, well, Salafis-gone-bad. The angry, arrogant folks.

    And I would love your thoughts on class/race divides within the Muslim community. (still havent gone through all the archives, so maybe you’ve written…)

    Much love and respect,

  281. Assalamu Alikum,

    All I wish to say brothers and sisters, is I think its now the time for the Muslims living in the States and in the West in general to make long-term plans to facilitate “mass- hijra” of all the Muslims into the Muslim world.

    The Imams, influencial muslims, community leaders, da’ees etc must now co-operate & initiate to enable this. There is no future in the States for the Muslims in the long run.

    Regardless whether anyone agrees with Shaykh Abu Abdullah Usamah Ibn Ladin (May Allah (SWT) Protect him) or whether anyone follows the madkhali “persuasion” or another “persuasion” or even the more deviant “asharism”, “sufism” etc, we must realise in this current waged crusade waged by the kuffar if one has a “trace” of Islaam – one will not be safe, we must take lessons from Bosnia:

    “And they will never cease fighting you until they (successfully) turn you back from your Deen.” (al-Baqarah: 217)

    The coming decades are about to unfold and there is no doubt even amongst the mushrikeen that the Mujahideen have crippled the US military machine in Iraq and Afganistan – and as the war widens the tables are about to turn……

    Throughout mankinds history arrogant, disbelieving and corrupt nations from Thamud to A’ad to the kingdoms of Pharoah have waged war on the Muwahideen only for them to be completely destroyed – today is a testimony of that fact for the Muwahideen still exist today (Muslims), while “traces” & “remnants” of the kindoms of previous nations are scattered across the earth.

    The United States made a “big mistake” in thinking Muslims are like “Red Indians”, rather this is an Ummah of Jihaad.

    The Prophet (Sall Allaahu ‘Alayhi wa Sallam)said, “There will always be a group of my nation, fighting for the commandments of Allaah, subjugating their enemy, not harmed by those who oppose them, until the Hour arrives and they are still like this.” [Saheeh Muslim]

    Ibn ‘Umar (radiyallahu ‘anhu) said, I heard Rasoolullah (sallallahu ‘alayhe wassallam) say, “When you enter into an ‘Eena (transactions dealing with Riba), and you follow the tails of cows, and you are pleased with agriculture, and you give up Jihad, Allah will make disgrace prevail over you, and will not lift it until you go back to your original Deen (i.e., Jihad).” (Sunan Abu Dawood: Book 23, Number 3455)

    “O You who Believe! Whoever from amongst you turns back from his Deen, Allah will bring a people whom He loves and they love Him: humble towards the believers, harsh against the disbelievers, fighting in the way of Allah, and never fear the blame of the blamers…” (al-Ma’idah: 54)

    Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. And those who are with him are harsh against the disbelievers and merciful amongst themselves… (al-Fath: 29)

    Finally I would like to say to “Caliph’s Sword” with regards to his statements regarding Shaykh Bin Baaz and Shaykh Ibn Uthaimeen to hold your tongue akhi……………..for indeed what you say has not been even preceded by the ulema of Jihaad such as, Shaykh ‘Alee ibn Khudhayr al-Khudhayr, Shaykh Naasir al-Fahd, Shaykh Aboo Muhammad al-Maqdisee and others – we need to be “balanced” and not driven by emotion.

    Ulema can make mistakes.

  282. Let’s get this straight, bro aS: you think there’s no ‘ahd’ between the muslims and the ‘mushrik and kafr’ in America, and if muslims live with them, then the judgement falls upon all of them, and you elect yourself amongst the righteous, and justify what Usamaah has done…

    Let me make it clear to you: before Khalif and Amir-ul-muq’minin Ali, Radhi Allahu anhu, took the armies to Syria and attacked the Byzantine (ahli-Rum) he slaughtered the Khawarij, by the thousands. Killed ‘muslims, who read the Quran… their camps sounded like bees hives… one of them thought he stole a date, so he cut of his own hand…’ – any of those stories sound familiar? Think of the pain you’ll experience when Allah tells you your murder, which you thought was for His sake, took you to hell.

    I swear by Allah that the people who murdered the 9/11 victims in the WTC will not be enobled by Allah on yawm-ul-Qiyama, and I have dalil:
    SHAKIR: For this reason did We prescribe to the children of Israel that whoever slays a soul, unless it be for manslaughter or for mischief in the land, it is as though he slew all men; and whoever keeps it alive, it is as though he kept alive all men; and certainly Our messengers came to them with clear arguments, but even after that many of them certainly act extravagantly in the land.

    Those who agree with you show their illness. Keep it up, I pray Allah to restore Imam Mahdi and bring justice, and that your ilk and Usamaah are the first dragged for judgement. Allah yahdik.

  283. Ok, I have to add and explain things from looking at my last comment here, and the advice of brother Abdus-Salam:

    I read your mesmerizing account of the state of Salafiyyah, both good and bad, and I’m quite amazed by your storytelling! I don’t think we have someting like this in all of cyberspace, both in English and Arabic!! And I offer to translate it into Arabic, at least to make the many Salafis still out there (and who oppose the filthy path the Madkhalis / Jamis / pseudo-Salafis who such the feet of the Saudi regime) know to what extent was damaging that crime of the agent al-Madkhali did, him and his anti-“Qutbi” crew of immature, stupid TROIDite kids!!!!

    I’m an Arab immigrant, came to Canada in my teenage, with broken English then, came from Kuwait with conservative behavour and religosity (however with very very humble knowledge). The cultural clash here was my gate to know Islam better, and gradually I grew in knowledge until I eventually found that so-called Salafiyyah translates what I always believed in and what made sense and was to my fitrah.

    I hate saying that it was 10 years and my first source of knowledge on ‘salafiyyah’ was the internet, and what was there then???, when they had alot of ‘moving’ graphics of that ‘ball’ opening up the sections for the site and all, with that unknown Abu Khadijah to me. It was then my 1st year of university, I started hating the ‘Ikhwan’ because of them. In 2nd year of university I’d discover TROID, and I’d become addicted to the site that i’d visit it maybe ten times an hour when my computer was beside me, but I didn’t listen to their stuff, I read more, and I was concerned more with the materials against the Sufis since they filled my campus and I was one of a handful Salafis there (yet, i have to tell you, we were all softspoken and though some would claim i ‘made waves’ there, I don’t believe i did! They were the ones who fought our halaqah on ‘tawheed and tawassul’ when their halaqah would invoke the dead Prophet (pbuh) and call for Jahmite beliefs and blind, fanatical madhabism and spread the articles of Nuk Ha Mim Keller and teach the attendees Pan-theism (Wahdat al-Wujood) and praising Ibn Arabi!!!!)

    Anyways,…my knowledge of what was happening in the North American continent was very limited, due to time restrictions and unquenched thirst for materials on the Sufis I was battling quietly on campus. I then discovered the Arabic web, and taught myself typing in Arabic, and then I almost completely forgot about the English Islamic websites (including Salafi ones), as I found that their sources were all from the Arabic web, including their fights over al-Awdah and al-Hawali, and whoever that al-Anbari was, and much much later I’d find the Western Salafi import even the campaign against some Ma’ribi guy, and I may have missed their copying the campain on Huwayini of Egypt?

    Anyways,…what I want to say is that….the curse was that shoe thrown in the Islamic university of Madinah, called al-Madkhali, may Allah hasten the destruction of his wicked, vile soul!!!! He and his predessor al-Jami the Ethiopian are behind it all, but of course with the instructions of the corrupt, apostate Saudi regime!!!!! Why do you think is this whole fuss about Qutb ??? It’s because he (may Allah be Merciful with his soul) set an example for those who resist the kafir rulers!!!!!! The pro-Saudi pseudo-Salafis made Qutb an Ikhwani when he barely was, and they judged his aqeedah as if he was a muhaddith or a faqih when he was neither one of those!!!!! He was simply a cultured writer with tremendous Islamic zeal and pride, he had done mistakes and he retracked from them, and that was proven by the people we know DON’T GET PAID TO DIG UP ALL DAY AND NIGHT IN OTHER PEOPLE’S LITERAL WORKS…while they themselves wouldn’t talk about their King’s alliances with America or at least opening usurous banks in the cradle of Islam, including Makkah!!!!!


    I’ll continue my heated thoughts later on here, I have to go now. Salam.

  284. Caliphs Sword you should fear Allaah as you may be heading for distruction. You have been effected by the Khawarij, Jihaadi, Takfeeri mentality….. in the least if you are not one of them. You have no hiqma, faham nor ilm. So fear Allaah.
    Whoever believes in Allaah should speak good or be silent.

  285. What is madhkhali? if people are referring shiddah salafis as madhkhalis, in turn referring to Shaykh Rabi bin Hadee al-Madhkhali. It is only out of jelousy and hatred as he is the Imaam of jarh wa tadeel in our time (but he is not perfect). He holds his view concerning Abul Hasaan and other Scholars have their view concer Abul Hasan. Shaykh Rabi is one of the great Salafi Scholars. Read his works!

  286. Shukran Brother Umar for such a well written and factual article on the subject of the Daw’ah here in the U.S. Many people write articles bashing or talking about the Salafi movement but have never experienced the good old days like we have. Alhamdullih for my experiences in the good old days it has strengthed me and made me a better Muslim. Although, I left about the same time as a lot of other people(during the fitnah of Usama al-Qoosi and the Madkhalee’s), i still do miss the brotherhood. These were my brothers and sisters, I grew up with them, cried with them, ate with them, and established family with them. I just feel sorry for the salafis today that never really experienced what it was then to be Salafi.

  287. as-Salaam Alaykum.


    This article is excellent. Ma sha Allah. I made it into a pdf and have been forwarding it to alot of people (with a link to your site of course). I’m a PhD candidate in Islamic Studies at Yale and would be interested in using this article for a future class. It would represent a first-person historical source. Send me a note when you get a chance, but otherwise, I’ll be in touch at some point in the future in sha Allah.


    Noor al-Deen

  288. As salaam aleikum!

    Masha Allah for writing such an analytical article. It astonishes me how advanced the brothers in the USA are… I have to say up in Prairie Canada we have just started to reach this. You’ve probably heard of the little mosque on the prairie.

    I mean the one brother that I first met in our community who was Salafi was about one year ago and he is no longer liking the Muslim-with-labels concept. It’s really beneficial because we can learn from the mistakes (what a history lesson!) but I think it would be better if you proposed SOLUTIONS to this problem now that it is fully understood.

    I think with all the experience you have you could do much good in bringing up your community. If this hadn’t have happened you would not have an example as to how a real deal Muslim community should be run etc. and what to avoid.

  289. Assalaamu Alaikum,

    I agree with your general assesment except that I think you end on a very pessimistic note. What are the solutions? How can we learn from our mistakes? What does the future hold for the “Salafi dawah”? Also, as has been said quite a few times, I humbly suggest you rename your title as it is misleading and has been used by other people for their own advantage. I’ve seen quite a few “traditionalist” websites pick this up and use it to mock the “Salafis”. Jazakallahu khairan.

  290. As-Salaamu Alaikum,
    While I understand that Umar wrote this series from his perspective, I have a few observations. The first is that having lived in Northern Virginia during the late 90’s and early 00’s, to hear that the Troidians were the only ‘group’ partaking in arguementation is farfetched. The Dar al-Arqam crew with their anti-Sufi lean engaged in much the same as the Troidians stand accused of. I do rember the seemingly widesread suspicion of one having been a sufi due to lack of attendence of the lectures at dar al-arqam. In addition, the reaction to the SP refutations of Ali Tamimi in the Northern VA area was at least as zealous as were the initial refutations. Also, to present the salafi dawah as having been united with the exception of the troidians is inaccurate as Ali Tamimi and Abu Muslimah themselves were not exactly parters, having little public cooperation with one another. A few appearances at the same conferences- such as the 95 IANA conference where I first met Umar- were the extent of it. I disagree with Umar on other issues as well, however internet polemics are not my thing.

  291. From my observations in the U.K., i say that in reality there are three types of Salafis.
    1. The true, moderate, balanced Salafis in every issue. In general who are active and are doing something to call people to Islam, sunnah and salafiyah and revive the moderate, balanced understanding of Salafiyah are:
    Brixton, Luton, Whitechapel and Green Lane. (bit behind in up dating) (bit behind in updating)

    2. The too soft and lenient Salafis are those who have a touch of talking bad about the rulers, but not making takfeer, also saying the sincere scholars are imprisoned, which is a mistake. ;

    3. the harsh and severe ones from spubs and troid.

    Those who make takfeer of the rulers, call for ‘j’ without any ilm, faham and hiqmah are part of or have atleast the characteristics of the khawarij, takfeeris and jihadees. They belie the Salafi scholars.
    Also refering to harsh and severe salafis as madhkhalis is a mistake, since those who say this refer this to Shaykh Rabi bin hadiee al-Madhkhali, yet the Shaykh is free from their harshness and severity. The Shaykh is one of the great Scholars of Salafiyah, who the too soft salafis don’t like as he has critisised some personalities that they like who have errors. But the shaykh did go too much into the issue of Abu Hasaan maribee, but when adviced by Shaykh Abdul Muhsin al-Abbaad realised and came out of it.

    We should not remiss too much over the past decade of Salafiyah in America and its suceess too much. We should not say if; as this lets shaytaan come in. We should learn from the mistakes and move on. Carry on learning and acting from the Quran and the authentic Sunnah upon the understanding and methodology of the Salaf, adhering to the teachings of the known Salafi Scholars where ever they reside (Saudi, yemen, jordon, egypt, kuwait etc) and from Students of knowledge, sticking to english speakers like Bilal philips, abu usamah, abu imraan, yasir qadhi and others. Any books translated by the catergory 2 and 3 salafis benefit from them, attend conferences when they bring scholars over. But detach from their dae’s faham.

    We should not walk around claiming salafi yet contradicting ourselves. But live up to it upon knowledge and not carry a badge and a label. Nor make it into a fasion. As in the U.K. one will notice many sisters are now wearing the head scarf, yet wearing tight trousers and tops, also there are many wearing colourful, bright hijaabs. They are not doing it upon knowledge and fear of Allaah but due to fashion and rea.

    We should carry on distributing tapes, cd’s books and free articles to the people, holding da’wah stalls on the streets atc. Showing the true image of the Salafi Dawah.

    This dawah will always be around with or without us. In America it did not rose in the 90’s nor did it disappaer in 2,0000. It has and will always be around, but at some stage it may be less apparent in success. Those who nurture and purify and educate themselves upon this will be firm at times of fitnah. Those who come in due to fashion and rea will not. May Allaah make us all firm upon the truth.

  292. FYI

    Salafi Daawah never falls but only rises and rises…

    The title should have been rather “Spring and Fall of salafi daawah in US”

  293. I am speechless after reading the comments and how many people agree with what was written. First question I have for Umar Lee is “What are you if you are not a Salafi”? Are you a Soufi, A Shia, a Rafidi, what are you? Those are some of the people that are fighting against Islam and in the same time they still say La Ilaha Illallah. Do you even understand the word Salafi or wanted some propaganda so you followed what the Kuffar does. If a Kafir wants to be well knows among the americans and others, he attacks Muslims and what did you do? You attacked your own people. Shame on you. If anything wrong happening in america, it is because of people like you who calls for everything but unity. I don’t know if I can call you a brother or not but I ask Allah (Al Mighty) to forgive you for what you wrote.
    Salfis are very active and facing lots of issues from people like you. Nothing is stopping us from doing what we are doing. We don’t leave anyone out, we welcome everyone. You are doing big harm to Islam with what you are doing. Don’t be like the people who are fighting muslims. If you have something to say, then say it to your brothers and not to the whole world. If you have issues, go and talk to those people you are reffering to in person. When I first read your article, I didn’t look at the name and I thought that it is another attack by a person who wants fame, then I saw that your first name is Umar and Insha’Allah you are a muslim unless you are someone else hiding behind that name to cause pain to your brothers and sisters.
    To end this, I would like to really know what you are or what you call yourself.

    May Allah (AlMighty) forgive me first and all my brothers and sisters.

  294. Muslim Salafi, it is obvious what Umar Lee is now upon. He is now confused as to what is the true, balanced, moderate Salafi Dawah. From his article whom does he refer to especially at the end, are there any salafi Scholars view in this? especially at the end, he thinks that white American Muslims are being neglected. Plus he refers to those Salafis that I say are too soft and lenient, they have the characteristics of talking bad about the rulers subltely (subtlely or openly is going aganist the Sunnah and Salafi manhaj), they say all sincere scholars are locked up, they do not like using the blessed termonology and word ‘Salafi’ to describe themselves specifically as to which type of Muslim they are, afraid of being labeled as those harsh sever salafis.

  295. As salaamu ‘alaykum

    All praise belongs to Allah, that the dawah of the Salaf is growing in all communities in US, and all the praise belongs to Allah for that. For verily, He will make the Truth stand clear from the misguidance and the Truth will eventually be victorious by the help of Allah.

    Let us remind ourselves of the hadith narrated in Saheeh Muslim:
    “There will not cease to be a group from my ummah, dominant upon the truth. The ones who abandon them will not be able to harm them, until the decree of Allaah comes.”

    So we ask Allah for sabr and for beneficial knowledge to first and foremost battle our innermost desires and the whispers of Shaytaan and then to explain to the people the meaning of salafiyyah with knowledge, wisdom and gentleness.

    May Allah guide us and you to that which He is pleased with and take us far away from that which He is displeased with.

  296. I love all the “Disrespecting the rulers is haraam” nonsense. They can put the bulk of the Saudi royal family on their knees in the street and shoot them any day now, far as I’m concerned. Anyone who confuses allegiance to corrupt earthly rulers with allegiance to allah is so far gone as to not be worth listening to.

  297. Assalam Alaykom,

    Allah Al Musta’an. You should all (Except Salafis) listen to Sheikh Al Albani (Rahimaho Allah), he will guide you back to the right path Insha’Allah. You can also listen to his students, they are doing a perfect job Ma Sha’a Allah.
    As for you Umar Lee or you want me to call you Mr. Umar Lee, I don’t know if Sheikh AL Albani is enough to guide you back but you can also go to Sheikh Uthaimeen and Ibn Baaz and I will ask Allah to open your eyes and guide you to the right path.
    Instead of attacking the Salfis, show all of us what you did for Islam (other than stabbing us in the back). I would like to know what you did for Islam and Muslims.

    I will not forgive you and I think lots of the brothers will not (until you come back to your senses). If you know what this means, then you will have to do a lot of Hasanat because we are many to take yours the jugement day Insha’Allah.

    On the other hand, prepare your answer to ALLAH (Al Mighty) when you will be asked about what you just wrote.

    Salam to all the Muslims on this Blog. May Allah (Al Mighty) forgive me and you)

  298. To Ibn Abdus

    Jazak Allah Khairan for what you wrote. I just want to clarify something. There is only one Salafi and they are the first ones you talked about.

    The true, moderate, balanced Salafis in every issue. In general who are active and are doing something to call people to Islam, sunnah and salafiyah and revive the moderate, balanced understanding of Salafiyah.

    I don’t know why the rest call themselves Salafis. Subhan Allah. All the names people are calling themselves these days, they had to choose Salafis.

    Just to be clear, anyone who doesn’t fall under the above mentioned, try to become moderate and balanced. This is the perfect meaning of Salfai.

    Jazakum Allah Khairan.

  299. It is effectively against Sharia for Muslims to immigrate to non-Muslim lands. An issue immigrants of course do not care to discuss. Thus, the very act of immigration to a non-Muslim land calls into question the Muslimness of the individual immigrating. We consequntly have a group of people in America, insisting on taking the dawa lead – because they were deprived of it back home, who are the worst possible representatives of Islam in America. People who left their country, their people, their way of life – contributing to a brain drain that was the last nail in the coffin for many so-called Muslim lands.

    It is time to discuss these issues. If immigrant Muslims insist on staying in non-Muslim lands, call yourself Arab, Pakistani, or Jew – leave the dawa to the people who know and understand America.

    Muslims should go back to their own countries even if they have to eat dry bread.

  300. Angry Salafi; The Kibaarul Ulamah of this blessed Dawah, did not fail us. If you look back at their writing and recordings you will read and hear that they did warn about extremism in harshness/severity and extremism in being too soft/lenient. Any they still are. Only those whom Allaah blesses and yhey wish to follow guidance would foolow the scholarly advice. Since shaytaan plays with humans emotion, intellect and desire it has made many who did ascribe to Salafiyah but were not firm in the foundation, not did they nureture, purify and educate themselves properly, but came in wearing a label, a badge, following a trend, fasion fell into sin and even apostasy. But those who follow personality follwed either the harsh or the too soft (sahwa) salafis. But, those who truly want to be upon truth followed the balanced, moderate salafi path, taking heed of the Ulama. This social problem especially in the U.S. after the fitnah came and still lingering, will not be resolved until we take heed of the advice of the scholars. This is will not solve the problem. This is an interesting article which is partly true, but does not provide the solution. It only makes us disappointed and only look at the past glory. Let us leave that and move on taking the advice of Allaah, His Rasool and the Scholar.
    And be a moderate Muslim and a moderate Salafi. Sisters with 3/4 plus kids without the husband, brothers on the streets taking dope, the solution is in the Book and the sunnah upon the understanding and methodology of the early righteous Muslims.

  301. Abu Moosa, Ibn Shahid, Ibn Sultana, Salafee Method:

    It gladdens my heart to see other people of the sunnah come here to defend this blessed dawah that we are upon. This dawah can never “fall” as it is impossible for us to fall for there will always be a group upon the truth.

    The likes of Umar Lee and Tariq Nelson call to the western ways and try to confuse the people. We need to call these evil individuals to the truth.

    These so called social ills are not amongst the salafees but amongst those who are not salafee or have left salafiyyah. These problems could be solved if the people would listen to the kibaar and get away from the false manhaj

    The salafees are alive and well and growing in numbers like never before

  302. When I say that in reality, there are 3 categories of Salafi and that we are to follow the moderate, balanced Salafi path in every issue. It does not mean that we do not buy and benefit from the translated books that the harsh/sever salafis publish likewise it does not that we do not buy and benfit from the too soft (sahwa – as some say) salafis. We benefit from them, when they bring scholars and students of knowledge over, we are to go and benefit from them. But keeping far away from extremism in harshness and extremism in softness.

    What Umar has experienced is true, but the social problems of the salafis is far greator in America than U.K. The solusion is to follow the balanced, moderate salafis. It is not permissible for us to bicker on about this and what happend in the past. Take lessons and move on.

    Since most bro/sis are regular on the net then lets benefit from good beneficial websites but not totally rely upon the web for our islamic ilm.

  303. Extremism of those Being
    Harsh and Severe with others
    Advice from the Senior Scholars to those who busy themselves in criticising others and looking for mistakes in them

    Allaah The Most High says concerning harshness:
    “And by the Mercy of Allah, you dealt with them gently. And had you been severe and harsh-hearted, they would have broken away from about you…) [Surah Al-Imran: 159]

    And He also says:
    “Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah. And those who are with him are severe against the disbelievers and merciful amongst themselves.” [Surah Al-Fath: 29]

    And The Prophet of Allaah sal’lal’laahu’alaihi wa sallam said:
    “Facilitate things for the people (treat the people in the most agreeable way), and do not make things difficult for them, and give them glad tidings, and let them not have aversion (i.e. to make the people hate good deeds)…” Saheeh Al-Bukhaari (Eng. Trans. Vol. 8, Pg.)

    He also said:
    “Give good tidings (to the people); do not create (in their minds) aversion (towards religion); show them leniency and do not be hard upon them” Saheeh Muslim (Eng. Trans. Vol. 3, Pg. 944)

    And also:
    “Kindness is not to be found in anything but that it adds to its beauty and it is not withdrawn from anything but it makes it defective”. Saheeh Muslim (Eng. Trans. Vol. 4, Pg. 1370)

    Also He sal’lal’laahu’alaihi wa sallam said:
    “Beware of exaggeration in the Religion, for indeed, those before you were destroyed due to exaggeration in the Religion”.
    [Saheeh. Ahmad, an-Nasa’ee and Ibn Maajah]
    ADVICE FROM SHAYKH MUHAMMAD NASIR UDDIN AL-ALBANI “Listen my brother. I sincerely advise you and other youths like you, who stand upon a type of deviation – as it seems to us, and Allâh knows best – that do not waste your time in refuting each other, saying that such and such has this in him, and such and such has that in him. This is because; firstly: there is no knowledge at all in this, and secondly: this mannerism only breeds enmity and hatred in the hearts, and causes contempt and rancour to develop in the hearts. So It is upon you to seek knowledge. It is knowledge that will make clear to you the reality of the speech which is in praise of a particular person having many mistakes, and whether he is deserving of being labelled as an innovator. Yet why do we wish to delve into such issues. Indeed I advise you not to delve into such issues. The reality is that we complain about this splitting which has occurred between those who ascribe themselves to the da’wah to the Book and the Sunnah – or as we say, ad-Da’watus-Salafiyyah the greatest cause of this splitting, and Allâh knows best, is the following of whims and desires and the evil dictates of one’s soul. It is not due to the presence of differences in thoughts and ideas. So this is my sincere advice.” [Silsilatul Hudâ wan-Nûr (784/1), dated the 1st of Rabî’ al Awwal 1414H (9-12-1993)]
    ADVICE FROM SHAYKH ABDUL AZIZ BIN ABDULLAAH BIN BAZ “What has become common in this age, is that many of those who ascribe themselves to knowledge and calling to good, fall into belittling many of their brothers who are well-known dâ’îs, and speaking against the honour of the students of knowledge and the dâ’îs. This is done sometimes secretly in their circles, sometimes on cassettes which are then circulated amongst the people, or sometimes publicly mentioned in their gatherings in the mosques. And this matter opposes the command of Allâh and His Messenger from a number of angles … So I sincerely advise those brothers who have fallen into slandering and maligning the dâ’îs, that they should repent to Allâh, the Most High, for what they have written with their own hands, and what they have said with their own tongues; which may have been a cause for corrupting the hearts of some of the youths; filling their hearts with hatred and malice, and pre-occupying them away from acquiring beneficial knowledge and calling to Allâh, because of being pre-occupied with qîl and qâl (gossiping and rumour mongering); and with speech about this person and that person; and with hunting for the mistakes of people, and burdening them with this. Likewise, I sincerely advise them that they should retract whatever they have done, and declare themselves free from the likes of these actions, through writing or methods other than this. They should remove whatever may have entered the minds and thoughts of those who listened to them, and they should take to doing those fruitful actions that will draw them closer to Allâh, and which will be of benefit to the worshippers. They should beware of being hasty in pronouncing takfîr, tafsîq or tabdî upon people, without the truth being explained, and without the proofs being established. The Prophet sallallâhu ‘alayhi wa sallam said: “Whosoever says to his brother: ‘O unbeliever’ then it will return to one of them. ” The authenticity of this hadîth has been agreed upon.” [Majmû’ Fatawa wa Maqalat Mutanawwi’ah (7/311-314), abridged.]
    ADVICE FROM SHAYKH ABDULLAAH AL-GHUNAYMAAN Amongst the consequences of the actions of these individuals is that they have confused the thoughts of many of the youth. Thus, as a result, some youths have strayed from the path of guidance and have begun to follow what those – who criticize others, and who have stood in the path of da’wah and blocked the path of Allâh – have drawn up for them. Some of the youth, as a result of those individuals who criticize others, now sense a great gap between them and the Scholars, and now harbour great misgivings, causing them to stay away from the Scholars. Some have begun to categorize people according to what he hears from these people, saying: so and so is from the Ikhwân, because he talks, visits or sits with a person from the Ikhwân; or that such and such is from the Surûrîs; or such and such is from the profiterors [i.e. those who wish to please everybody, even at the expense of the truth], etc. The amazing thing is that these people imagine that by doing so, they are applying the methodology of al-jarh wat-ta’dîl.
    However, they have adopted in this action, ignorant leaders who are misguided and who misguide others. Thus, it is upon the Muslim to fear Allâh regarding himself and those poor souls who are not even a quarter, or a tenth of the learned.
    There occurs in the authentic hadîth: “That Allâh guides through you even a single person, is better than the red camel (the most expensive quality Camel in those days).” [Related by al-Bukhârî (2942), from Sahl Ibn Sa’d radiallâhu ‘anhu]
    Meaning that it is better for you in this world. Likewise, whosoever misguides even a single person, will bear a great burden; as Allâh – the Most High – said, after mentioning the story of one of the Âdam’s children killing his brother: “Because of that, We ordained for the Children of Isra’îl that whosoever kills a person, not because of a life for a life; or killed a person in order to spread corruption upon the earth, it is as if he has killed the whole of mankind.” [5:32].
    Thus, to send someone astray in his religion is far far greater than killing him. So statements regarding matters of religion must be stated along with their proofs from either Allâh’s Book, or the Sunnah of His Messenger sallallâhu ‘alayhi wa sallam, and that when making such statements one should seek by that the Face of Allâh alone; and also one should ascertain if the harm resulting from such speech is not greater than the benefit, or that one’s intention is not due to envy of a particular individual, or due to the following of one’s desires. [Al Hawâ wa Atharuhu fil Khilâf (33-34)]
    And close to the bid’ah of testing the people by personalities is what arose during this time of a small band (fi’atun qaleelah) from Ahlus-Sunnah’s infatuation with the tajreeh of some of their brothers from Ahlus-Sunnah, and the tabdee’ of them, as well as what resulted from that of abandonment (hajr), severance of mutual relations (taqaatu’) between them and cutting off the path of benefit from them. And that tajreeh and tabdee’, from it is what is built on thinking what is not an innovation (bid’ah) is a innovation.
    [al-Hathu ‘alaa Ittibaa’ is-Sunnati wat-Tahdheeri min al-Bida’i wa Bayaani Khatarihaa]
    ADVICE FROM SHAYKH MUHAMMAD BIN SÂLIH AL-’UTHAYMEEN “It is essential for a student of knowledge to safeguard his time from being wasted. And time wasting occurs in a number of ways:- Firstly: That one leaves committing to memory and revising what one has read. Secondly: That one sits with his friends and indulges in vain and idle talk which contains no benefit. Thirdly, and this is the most harmful of them upon a student of knowledge: That he has no concern except pursuing people’s statements with he said this and he said that (mâ qîla wa mâ qâla) and with what occurred and what is taking place regarding an issue that is of no concern to him. And there is no doubt that this is from a weakness of [his] Islâm, since the Prophet sallallâhu ‘alayhi wa sallam said: “Part of a person’s good Islâm is to leave alone that which does not concern him.” And busying oneself with qîla wa qâla and excessive questioning are time-wasters. And it is, in reality, a disease which, when it comes into man – we ask Allâh for well-being – it becomes his greatest concern. Due to this, he may even sometimes show enmity (’adâ) to one who does not deserve enmity, or show allegiance (walâ) to one who does not deserve allegiance, because of concerning himself with these issues which pre-occupy him away from knowledge, under the pretext of “championing the truth”, whilst this is not the case! Rather, this is part of pre-occupying oneself with an issue that does not concern him. If, however, a report comes to you without you having pursued or sought it, then all people receive news, but they do not busy themselves with it, nor does it become their greatest concern. This is because this pre-occupies the student of knowledge, corrupts his affair; and opens up for the Ummah the door of bigoted partisanship (hizbiyyah), which then splits the Ummah.” [Kitâbul ‘Ilm (204-205)]
    Also the Shaykh Ibn Uthaymeen Rahimahullaah stated in the taped lecture that was delivered in Unayzah. The tape is part of his Sharh of An-Nawawi’s 40 hadeeth, in the sharh of the hadeeth of Irbaad ibn Saariyah (no.28).
    From his [the Prophet] sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallam’s statement; “Whoever lives amongst you will see much differing, so adhere to my Sunnah”,
    It can be learnt that if parties (ahzaab) within the ummah emerge in increasing numbers then one should not affiliate himself to a party (hizb). In the past, many groups have appeared; Khwaarij, Mu’tazilah, Jahmiyyah, Shee’ah, even Raafidah. Then there appeared, later on Ikhwanis, Salafis, Tablighis, and all those like them. Put all of them to one side and take [the path] ahead. Which is what the Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallaam guided to, “Adhere to my Sunnah and the Sunnah of the rightly guided caliphs.” No doubt, it is obligatory for all Muslims to adopt the way of the salaf as their madhhab, not affiliation to a specific party (hizb) named, “The Salafis”. It is obligatory for the Islamic Ummah to adopt the way of the salaf as-salih as their madhhab, not bigotry to those called “the salafis”. Pay attention to the difference: There is the way of the salaf, and there is a party (hizb) called “the salafis”.
    What is the objective? Following the Salaf. Why? The salafi brothers are the closest sect to that which is right, no doubt, but their problem is the same as others, that some of these sects declare others as being misguided, they declare them to be innovators and as being sinners. We don’t censure this, if they deserve it, but we censure handling this bid’ah in this way. It is obligatory for the leaders of these sects to get together and say, “Between us is the book of Allah, and the Sunnah of His messenger, so let us judge by them and not according to desires, opinions and not according to personalities. Everyone makes mistakes and achieves correctness no matter what he has reached with regards to knowledge and worship. Infallibility is [only] in the religion of Islam.”
    In this hadeeth the Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallaam guided to the way in which a person secures himself. He doesn’t affiliate himself to any sect, only the way of the Salaf as-Salih, to the Sunnah of our Prophet sallallaahu ‘alayhi wa sallaam and the rightly guided caliphs.
    And he also stated in Liqaa-al-Baab al-Maftooh Q # 1322
    “Thus, Salafiyyah that is taken to mean a special party (Hizb) with specific rules whose members consider anyone who differs with them as astray then they have nothing to do with Salafiyyah”

  304. As you can see brothers and sisters, if those who claim to be Salafis took heed of the advice of the Scholars then they would not have gone to the extreme in harshness nor to the extreme of softness. But would have been moderate Salafis.
    As moderate, balanced Salafis, we cannot deny the other 2 categories. Since they exist and also claim salafiyah but have fallen into extremism in either harshness or softness. If only we took the advice of the Scholars, when they gave over 10yrs ago. But, never the less, the modarate, balanced Salafiyah is growing day by day. Islam will prevail over all other religions and Salafi dawah will prevail over all other groups,sect,parties.

    Ali bin Sherman, I totally agree with you in what you say; but you need to be a bit more gentle as most of the people on this blog dislike salafiyah, or have a wrong understanding of it, referring to the wrong people. Social problem has occured due to them leaving the undestanding and methodology of the Salaf and to rectify it, they need to return to it, or atleast the general Islam..

  305. abu Moosa and Ali Sherman, please someone check that they’re just satirists (‘while I was waiting for my family’, ‘could someone check out some Brazilian sisters upon the Sunnah for me’, no-one, I hope, is that moronic) – otherwise, it does says something tragic about our muslim community in NA, that people like this are amongst us, and the scholars have encouraged them to get involved in online refutation and arguments about theology, rather than taking care of their families and other fardh ain.

  306. Abu Moosa,

    Yea, these so called social problems are foreign to the salafees that is why we find it to be so strange. It is like you said, they left the salafee manhaj and the social problems began. If they return to salafiyyah the social problems will go away