American Family Association Poll on Islam in America

It seems as if our good friends from the Christian-right are showing the “love of Jesus” by offering the readers to its website a poll on their opinions on Muslims and as you can see by the questions, the poll has a pretty clear aim, and that is to bias the survey in order to lead the person answering the questions to a fear of Muslims. If you have any doubt that the people that would put out a poll such as this would think twice about hauling us all into internment camps and closing our places of worship you have another thing coming. I encourage my readers to participate in the poll.

Brief Note on Bill O’Reilly

As a member of the St. Louis community I am angered by the way in which Bill O’Reilly on his show last night seemed to blame the victim, and his long-suffering parents, in the Shawn Hornbeck case. Does anyone take this guy serious anymore? Unfortunately, yes.

Help on Shilpa Shetty

I have went through youtube and tried to find video on what has India in an outrage and have not found any exact video on what would anger so many people. If ayone has seen any video send me the link. I have seen some things that remind me of snooty whitegirls I knew in school, who would abuse any Asian girl ( they talk about the black girls behind their backs for fear of a beat down), or any whitegirl who was an outsider, and there is nothing like the caniving gossiping, race-pride and classism of whitegirls ( and no I am not talking about you so dont send me an email saying you are not that kind of whitegirl). Below is the compilation I have seen.

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78 thoughts on “American Family Association Poll on Islam in America

  1. The debate over here in the UK is working class ignorance and their unwillingness to accept someone from a different culture and lack of values among the youth. Instead of burning effigies and protests, Indians should question their attitudes. There arent any dark skinned famous actresses in India which is the biggest film industry in the world. Light skinned equates to beauty and thus enough to be a star. Bollywood is a racist industry that doesnt give talented dark skinned actors a chance and i hope Indians can debate this.

  2. As-Salaamu ‘alaikum,

    This isn’t snootiness, it’s the exact opposite: inverted snobbery. It’s “working-class” people picking on someone they perceive as “thinking he/she is better than them”. The three women in this incident are commonly called chavs, meaning white trash and unashamed of it. The fact that Bollywood is racist and prefers the light-skinned has been mentioned in the discussion, but the overwhelming tone has been hostility towards the three women.

    Actually, perhaps some of the ladies can help us out on this. I noticed that on the radio phone-in I listened to (Vanessa Feltz, BBC London 94.9FM), the host and various female contributors called Shetty a lady and a “fine example of womanhood”. I suspect they saw in Shetty a fine woman and a sort of role model, a surrogate better them, at least in terms of beauty and refinement, which is why they so keenly saw envy and resentment in Jade Goody and co. Anyone agree or disagree?

  3. I have seen some of the footage, it’s nigh-on inescapable here and the sheer downright venom and bile of these girls cannot be overstated, likewise the dignity and class that Shilpa has demonstrated in response to it.

    I believe that it stems from jealousy, as she is very much prettier then them, coupled with a “Who does she think she is?” atttiude, as they probably have no idea how huge Bollywood is. Like lots of people, they think that: country with brown people = everyone is poor and lives in tents, so they cannot understand why she should be so well educated and successful.

    Hence their mockery is claiming that she’s ignorant and backward because she’s Indian, as surely an Indian cannot be better then them.

    Even more interesting has been the public reaction to it. This has been the most complained about programme in U.K tv history with over 38,000 complaints.

  4. assalamu alikeum

    [Yusuf: the host and various female contributors called Shetty a lady and a “fine example of womanhood”. I suspect they saw in Shetty a fine woman and a sort of role model, a surrogate better them, at least in terms of beauty and refinement, which is why they so keenly saw envy and resentment in Jade Goody and co. Anyone agree or disagree?]

    I agree, its very true. I think Brother Jermaine (can’t believe he’s on there! lol) said it best when he said to Shilpa (paraphrased): ” They want you to talk about what colour undies your wearing, who you lost your virginity to, who you slept with and purposely fart around” and then refered to them as white trash. I think chaves is more adpt although it’s proabably the U.K equalivent of those commonly referred to as white trash in america.

    Anyhow, Shilpa, regardless of her skin tone (yes i know that helped her get sucessful in bollywood), she’s made her millions and done so by working hard, hasnt had to prositute herself to my knowlegde, lives a lifestyle that them three chav cows would die for and is by far much more beautiful and ladylike them. If most men had to choose out of the four women, Shilpa (nick named “The Body” for her sexy figure) would win every time!

    What exactly are those chavs famous for?

    Jade Goodey is famous for being an incumbetant and highly ignornant fool and has managed to profit from her inheriant stupidity (those of you outside the U.K will think im being harsh, but you truly have to see her to beleive it) and also sucked off another male contestant on national tv, which snagged her a £500,000 interiew in the british gutter press (news of the world)!

    Dannielle Llyod is a wannabe footballer’s (soccer player) wife but is regulated to being a footballer’s whore and is familar with the private parts of many footballers in england. For a living, she takes her top off for cheap lads mags. Ironic that she cried the other day on the show, at the thought of the public seeing her breasts after her top was on the verge of falling down, in the middle of a challegne. I thought she would have loved the exposure seeing as she does it regulary anyways. She was also Miss Great Britian but was stripped of her title after a newspaper exposed she had been screwing one of the main jugdes who happened to be be high profile footballer Teddy Sheringham (did i mention he’s looted with cash?)

    And Jo O’Meara , is the wealthest of the three chavs and she’s a former member of a quite sucessful pop band S-Club 7, who did try to launch her own solo career but failed dismally and was dropped after record producers relaised that trying to market a Pat Butcher rip off was not working. Her less talented but more beautful co-band member Racheal Stevens has done moderatly well as a solo artist and managed to smooze with the likes of Robbie Williams and few other big british stars. Jo is now breeding dogs for a living.

    So as you can see, they have much to be jealous about, hence why they viciously attacked Shilpa. They couldnt attack her beauty, her wealth, her lifestyle and sucess because deep down, those bitches wish they were her, so they targeted the easiest and most obvious thing: her ethnicity/racial background. If Shilpa was white in race and ethnic background (but everything esle was the same), you wouldnt have heard a bad word against her. But they’d prefer to see someone like Shilpa working in the corner shop, curry shop or some other sterotypically asian job on some british high street, not getting paid £300,000 for her appreance on the show (more then any of them) and being a self confident woman with everything that they believe should be theirs and theirs alone.

  5. For those of you non brits (and brits) midly interested in this, that link is a clip to footage of Jade Goodey’s and her boyfriend, with her boyfriend refering to Shilpa as a ‘PAKI’ (highly offensive racial slur in britian). We know shes indian but thickos like her boyfriend cant tell (hell even me and my sis have been called pakis and we’re black. White muslim sisters have been called that too lol).

    Anyhow, this is one of several instances that have fulled such anger from the public in britian and india because its clear he says ‘paki’ and not ‘cunt’ as Channel 4 tried to palm off and they have not repremanded him for it. The facial reactions of Jade and her reponse to him afterwards shows to that what was said was racially offensive. Jade only knows to well that nowhere in the house, especially the bedroom is safe from big brother and every action and breath is recorded (all puns indended lol)

  6. Assalaamu alaikum:

    Who cares about these stupid non-Muslim issues? A white British female kaafir allegedly said something insulting and bad about a brown Indian female kaafir on a non-Muslim British TV reality show. Who freaking cares? If anything I say, let them fight each other.

    The same Indian non-Muslim that you are defending from the other white British non-Muslim surely has many Hindu co-religionists that had no hesitation in perpetrating the genocidal slaughter of thousands of Muslims in Gujarat a few years ago, as they have also killed thousands in other places in India and Kashmir.

    Anyway, our most important concerns should be with what is happening in Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia, Chechnya, Kashmir, Palestine, Darfur, etc., etc., not what two non-Muslim bimbos are saying to each other.

    Salaam

  7. I did the poll about two weeks ago, when I read a diary about it on Daily Kos. Here’s my comment to the diary:

    Well, I did do the poll…

    …although all my “personal” information was completely fictional. :) (I have no interest whatsoever in being on their mailing list.) Anyhoo… My answers:

    Do you consider Islam to be a peaceful religion?
    Do you consider Islam to be a tolerant religion?

    Yes to both, of course.

    Would America be a better country if it were a Muslim country?

    Honestly? Yes. Not that I see this happening anytime soon… (although one never knows ;) ).

    Should America place equal emphasis on the Koran and the Bible?

    I responded “yes,” although, personally, I’d place more emphasis on the Qur’an myself. (Yes, if you haven’t guessed by now, I’m a Muslim.) However, those of you who responded “none” in the comments above, I respect that opinion too.

    Would it be good for America to have more Muslims in elected offices?

    Yes, absolutely.

    Would you vote for a Muslim for president?

    Yes, of course.

    As a general rule, are women treated better in America than in a Muslim country?

    Honestly, no. I live in a Muslim community and have visited one Muslim country; in these communities, Muslim women are treated just as well, if not better than American women. (This is one of the myths about Islam, of the so-called “oppressed Muslim woman.”)

    Is America too dependent on Muslim countries for oil?

    My answer was “no.” I’ve blogged about this topic before several times. The real answer is “America is too dependent on oil.” Muslim countries actually make up a minority of the oil-supplying countries for the US. The two largest oil-supplying countries for the US right now are actually Canada and Mexico (with over 30% of US imports.) So this question, IMO, is intellectually dishonest (not that most of the others aren’t ;) ).

    Do Muslim countries do more than America to help the poor?

    Difficult to say, although I said “yes.” You see, in Islam, we’re encouraged by the Qur’an both to give to charity (2.5% of our annual assets) and not to publicize our charitable deeds publicly. So charitable giving among Muslim countries is most likely underreported by a significant margin.

  8. Salam Sisters and Brothers:

    I was so surprised by your comments on a Kaafir woman and describing how beautiful she is, and what a “great role model” she is. We as Muslims discussing this is not dignifying as we have plenty of good role models that are Muslim women. They are not exposing their bodies, not dancing in Hollywood and Bollywood or anywood movies, and they could be good sisters, mothers and wives.

    This is very sad that we Muslims are talking about a non-Muslim woman, praising her as if she was a prophet’s wife or that she had a big impact on our lives. We should watch and discuss good moral Muslim females and talk about it and learn from it. I don’t understand what we will learn from Shelpa Shelly’s personality and supposed “high class.” Please have mercy on yourselves as Muslims and think about something which is Islamically educational and are good examples.

    Wasalam.

  9. I am always amazed that ideological sites post Internet polls expecting the public to accept the result as if it was objective.

    This goes equally well with a poll on aljazeera or jpost.

    It’s just a stupid stunt where you know the answer before you know the question.

  10. “Who cares about these stupid non-Muslim issues? A white British female kaafir allegedly said something insulting and bad about a brown Indian female kaafir on a non-Muslim British TV reality show. Who freaking cares? If anything I say, let them fight each other.”

    Racism is an issue in society champ, sorry you don’t care. It’s attitudes like yours that meant it took so long for so many Americans to find Islam; you didn’t care about the struggles of blacks, latinos, indians…Why bother, they’re just kafirun, right?


    The same Indian non-Muslim that you are defending from the other white British non-Muslim surely has many Hindu co-religionists that had no hesitation in perpetrating the genocidal slaughter of thousands of Muslims in Gujarat a few years ago, as they have also killed thousands in other places in India and Kashmir. ”

    Hindus have killed Muslims, Muslims have killed Hindus. What’s your point?

  11. Thanks DA. I was debating whether I should bother posting a reply to someone who just does not seem to get it, but you saved me the trouble.

  12. To all those asking why we care about “kafir”, remember that if the Prophet (saw) and Companions (RA), thought in this manner then Islam wouldn’t be the second largest and fastest growing religion in the world.

    Abu Talib was a “kafir”, yet the Prophet (saw) still felt sadness when he died.

    In fact there are numerous examples of the compassion that the Prophet (saw) felt for Non-Muslims, so I suggest you go and read some sirah, before you criticise others for showing concern in a fellow human being.

    It stuns me that some below view lack of compassion due to prejudice as being a good Muslim. It’s far easier to hate then to love, to ignore rather then to care.

    Being a good Muslim means following the Sunnah of the Prophet in all things, not just those we like the sound of or find easy to do.

  13. The “American Family Association?” You’re kidding, Umar. Please tell me you’re kidding. Anyone can pull up wacky websites in an attempt to buttress their point, but by doing so one only convinces those who were convinced already.

    Obviously I’m pretty politically aware… you’d agree? I’ve never HEARD of the “American Family Association.” I’ve never HEARD of their “leader,” Donald E. Wildmon. Com’on, Umar… you can do better than highlight obscure organizations like this to “prove” your points. Frankly… (tsk, tsk, tsk)… I’m disappointed in you. (*GRIN*)

    As to O’Reilly… I watch the guy. I’d say I agree with him maybe 75% of the time. That means I either disagree with him or at best am ambivilant concerning his positions at least a quarter of the time. In other words… you can count on me to fairly critique O’Reilly. Bottom line… O’Reilly did NOT “blame the victim” as you claim. He simply brought to the fore the same questions that were in my mind and any other inquisitive person’s mind.

    BILL

  14. Safiya,

    As an active (and respectful, though sometimes direct and even sarcastic) participant on Umar’s blog, I must say that your post is right on target.

    Other blogs I frequent aren’t “religious” per se, and while there’s certainly hatred, bigotry, and ignorance paraded all around the internet – even on “serious” websites – one can’t help but notice that many of the posters here at Umar’s site demonstrate… shall we say (*GRIN*)… a lack of respect for non-Muslims?

    While the regular use of the term “kafir” doesn’t really “bother” me in the sense that “nigger” might bother a black person or “spic” a Hispanic person or “kike” a Jew… I do wonder what those who use the term most often truly believe about what’s good, right, and permissible concerning how Muslims should feel and act towards non-Muslims.

    Thanks for an excellent post!

    BILL

  15. What is “neutral” Jordan? I have seen the Hebrew term for a gentile “goy” used as an insult. As a matter of fact, the only way I have ever heard it used is offensively.

    Kafir, as a word, isnt any more “non neutral” than Goy, it is how and it what context it is used.

    As I know the word is a loaded one, like “goy” I dont use the word Kaffir, and just usually say “non Muslim.”

    Those Muslims who bang on about the “kuffar” tend to be extremists.

  16. “snooty whitegirls I knew in school, who would abuse any Asian girl ( they talk about the black girls behind their backs for fear of a beat down), or any whitegirl who was an outsider, and there is nothing like the caniving gossiping, race-pride and classism of whitegirls ( and no I am not talking about you so dont send me an email saying you are not that kind of whitegirl)”

    I know exactly what you are talking about. We didn’t have black girls in my school, it was alomost monochromatic, but the nastiness you describe is all too real. I won’t watch the movie “mean girls” because it would give me flashbacks and i only watch movies for fun.

  17. I said:
    “Who cares about these stupid non-Muslim issues? A white British female kaafir allegedly said something insulting and bad about a brown Indian female kaafir on a non-Muslim British TV reality show. Who freaking cares? If anything I say, let them fight each other.”

    DA: “Racism is an issue in society champ, sorry you don’t care. It’s attitudes like yours that meant it took so long for so many Americans to find Islam; you didn’t care about the struggles of blacks, latinos, indians…Why bother, they’re just kafirun, right?”

    Salaam brother and sisters:

    Did I ever say that I didn’t care about racism? You’re putting words in my mouth. No one ever brought up the vile, evil, and heinous racism that African Americans had gone through in the past 400 hundred years in slavery and post slavery America. No one ever brought up the evil genocidal eradication and elimination of millions of Native American that the European colonists perpetrated in America. No one ever brought up the issue of Latinos and the pros and cons of immigration to America. Did I ever say that we as Muslims should not give dawah to non-Muslims in America, the UK, and elsewhere?

    Brothers and sisters, did we all apply what happened between the white and Indian females of Big Brother to something that we as Muslims can learn and benefit from? No (and I will be the first one to take responsibility and accepting guilt for not doing this). Everybody went on and on about how great, beautiful and classy the Indian female was, and how stupid, ignorant, and racist, the white female was. We as Muslims can learn from this, not that we needed this current controversy of Big Brother to talk about it. Why do WE as Muslims have hate, racism, and bigotry towards other Muslims, just because of their race, color, or ethnic background? One very sad, depressing and truly despicable example of this is that black skinned so-called “Arabs” are systematically killing and raping black skinned non-Arabs by the hundreds of thousands (!!!) in Darfur.

    As a few other examples of the racism and bigotry that we have towards each other, why do some Iraqi Muslim Kurds have racist feelings towards Iraqi Muslim Arabs? (and vice versa) Why do some Muslim Turks have racist feelings towards Muslim Kurds? (and vice versa) Why do some Muslim Pashtuns have racist feelings towards non Pashtun ethnic groups (and vice versa) in Afghanistan? Why do some ethnic groups and tribes have racist feelings towards Balochi and Pashtun tribes in Pakistan? (and vice versa) This unIslamic racism, hatred, and prejudice is happening all throughout the Ummah unfortunately.

    Here in America (as is maybe the case also in the UK and other western countries), what about the fact that many Arab brothers do not want to go to a “Pakistani” masjid? Or the fact that many Pakistani brothers do not want to go to an “Arab” Masjid? Or the fact that many immigrant brothers do want to go to a “African-American” masjid? Or the fact that many Muslims that were born into Muslim families don’t always see white Muslim reverts as real or authentic Muslims, but will sometimes think they are spies or agents from the government?

    I said: “The same Indian non-Muslim that you are defending from the other white British non-Muslim surely has many Hindu co-religionists that had no hesitation in perpetrating the genocidal slaughter of thousands of Muslims in Gujarat a few years ago, as they have also killed thousands in other places in India and Kashmir.”

    DA: “Hindus have killed Muslims, Muslims have killed Hindus. What’s your point?”

    My point is that Hindus have killed Muslims by the thousands in parts of India and Kashmir (and not that condone Muslims that have killed innocent Hindu civilians there). Yet, the posters seem to have nothing but fanatical love, praise, and adoration towards a non-Muslim, Hindu, Bollywood female actress, as if there are not great examples of this that we can look to from our Muslim sisters. I’m trying to keep things in perspective that’s all.

    MRT: “Thanks DA. I was debating whether I should bother posting a reply to someone who just does not seem to get it, but you saved me the trouble.”

    I don’t “get it?” No, I guess your right, I don’t “get it.” I don’t get the fact that many people are showing almost a blind love, praise, and adoration towards someone just because the other person showed bigotry and prejudice towards her. However, I never said that the prejudiced white female was right or had a right to do this. Obviously racism or bigotry is wrong period, but I think that we as Muslims really, really need to look in the mirror at this, as unfortunately we have too many examples of this happening right now in our Ummah, not to mention the hatred, racism, and bigotry that the non-Muslims have towards us which should be very apparent to all Muslims.

    Safiya: “To all those asking why we care about “kafir”, remember that if the Prophet (saw) and Companions (RA), thought in this manner then Islam wouldn’t be the second largest and fastest growing religion in the world. Abu Talib was a “kafir”, yet the Prophet (saw) still felt sadness when he died. In fact there are numerous examples of the compassion that the Prophet (saw) felt for Non-Muslims, so I suggest you go and read some sirah, before you criticise others for showing concern in a fellow human being.It stuns me that some below view lack of compassion due to prejudice as being a good Muslim. Its far easier to hate then to love, to ignore rather then to care. Being a good Muslim means following the Sunnah of the Prophet in all things, not just those we like the sound of or find easy to do.”

    Is this non-Muslim not a kafir? I don’t understand the quotes. But you tell me, are people in the UK in the process of trying to kill this Indian Bollywood actress? Are they trying to commit other crimes against her such as ethnic cleansing, or trying to destroy her home? Are they oppressing her?

    SubhanAllah, how can you bring up the example of the prophet (saw) and his uncle Abu Talib that he loved, the same uncle that helped to raise that last messenger of Allah (swt), comparing him to this Bollywood actress? The prophet (saw) tried to give dawah over and over to his beloved uncle, just as the companians (raa) also tried to give dawah to their non-Muslim relatives and others during the period that they lived, yet you actually compare this Bollywood star to the prophet’s (saw) non-Muslim uncle?! I mean, has anyone tried to give dawah to this female Bollywood star? I think you are not showing concern and “love” towards the non-Muslims when you seemingly are just praising them for their ethnicity, and not trying to give them dawah for the sake of Allah (swt). And what about Allah (swt) telling us in the Qur’an that we should not love the kuffar, otherwise we will be just like them, and the fact that we will be resurrected on the day of judgment with the people that we love? Again, are you or anyone giving dawah to this Indian non-Muslim?

    Meanwhile don’t forget that these non-Muslims you want us to love so much are slaughtering us, oppressing us, and making life for us a living hell, but I’m not saying that we can’t be plolite, nice and kind towards them, especially focusing on inviting them to al-Islam.

  18. Well excuse me!

    The only thing that we all should talk about is racisim, right? not anything else. But, do we agree that Islam is considered as a RACE in the west now. We are all being oppressed as being muslim or looking like a muslim. We are being oppressed and being looking down at every where, at the airports, restuarants, stores, work places, just name it. We are called “TERRORISTS”, please keep it real. Why everyone acts like nothing is happening in the WORLD to us (muslims).

    Islam is being treated like a RACE all over the world now regardless of color. You think it is the only time happening in UK, no, it is not, just for one moment look at yourself how bad you are being treated as muslims.

    This racism is a big issue for muslims in the west we are considered as a RACE not a religion any more. We are considered people from another planet because of the way we carry outselves, we eat, pray etc,. is a big JOKE for all non-muslims or Kufar according to muslim brother. We are MUZLIMS, RUGHEADS, IZLAMICS, TERRORISTS? O.K.

  19. Muslim brother:
    What you fail to understand is that it is possible to have compassion for Muslims and non-Muslims. I deplore the atttitude the we cannot help anyone except Muslims. As I see it, we have to fight injustice whereever and whoever it happens to.

    As for Hindus killimg Muslims, unless you can prove to me that Shilpa Shetty has herself killed Muslims, then this is irrelevant to this discussion, as only sinners can be held responsible for their sins.

    I did not praise her for her beauty, I said I felt the bullying began because she was more attractive then the other girls. Also, since I feel it is acceptable to have positive opinions of non Muslims, I stated that her dignity is admirable. That’s my opinion.

    As for bringing Abu Talib into this – why shouldn’t I? We are encouraged to follow the Sunnah in everything.

    As for Non-Muslims slaughtering and oppressing us, you’ll find that Muslims are also doing a fantastic job or slaughtering and oppressing each other too, so what’s your point?

    Again remember that only those who have committed sins can be punished for them, to paint a whole people as guilty without proof is a grave slander.

    Finally, you talk of dawah. To give dawah you have to have respect for the people you are giving dawah to. The fact that you have not referred to Shilpa Shetty by her name once, instead calling her
    “that Bollywood actress”, is a fairly good indication that you have none.

  20. Bill,

    I actually had never heard of this group either until I heard a caller talking about them on NPR and then i checked them out, and they are not mainstream, but they are far from obscure.

  21. Umar… not to be argumentative… but if they’re not on YOUR radar and they’re not on MY radar… (*GRIN*)

    Anyway, no use in debating how “obscure” you need to be to BE “obscure…” (*GRIN*)

    Bogus group… bogus poll. Agreed? (*WINK*)

    BILL

  22. Safiya
    “Muslim brother:
    What you fail to understand is that it is possible to have compassion for Muslims and non-Muslims. I deplore the atttitude the we cannot help anyone except Muslims. As I see it, we have to fight injustice whereever and whoever it happens to.”

    Dear Safiya:

    I never said that Muslims cannot be compassionate towards non-Muslims, nor did I say that we cannot help them either. Seriously, when did I ever say this? In fact, I said the best way to help non-Muslims is to try give them dawah, and even used the example that you mentioned, with the prophet (saw) trying save his uncle, Abu Talib from the fire, as he (saw) really tried very hard, time and again to give him dawah.

    “As for Hindus killimg Muslims, unless you can prove to me that Shilpa Shetty has herself killed Muslims, then this is irrelevant to this discussion, as only sinners can be held responsible for their sins.”

    I didn’t say that she killed Muslims herself, but I mentioned that we have Muslim brothers and sisters that have been murdered by other Hindus because they did not look at their fellow Indians, that happened to be Muslims (and BROWN skinned), as good, excellent role models, etc., they only saw them as Muslims that deserved to die. Did this Bollywood star ever speak out against the genocide in Gujarat? Now maybe she did, but I am not aware of this. However, I don’t have anything against her, and don’t wish anything bad to happen to her.

    “I did not praise her for her beauty, I said I felt the bullying began because she was more attractive then the other girls. Also, since I feel it is acceptable to have positive opinions of non Muslims, I stated that her dignity is admirable. That’s my opinion.”

    You’re entitled to your opinion, l as I’m also entitled to mine, and BTW, I never said that one cannot have positive opinions of non-Muslims.

    “As for bringing Abu Talib into this – why shouldn’t I? We are encouraged to follow the Sunnah in everything.”

    You are entitled to bring Abu Talib into the discussion, but I feel that it is in the wrong context, because I didn’t hear you say that you are actively trying to give dawah to this Indian lady, so to discuss the prophet (saw) and his relationship with his dear beloved uncle whom he gave dawah to, and the way many people are talking about this Bollywood actress, is definitely, apples and oranges, and not a real good analogy, IMHO.

    “As for Non-Muslims slaughtering and oppressing us, you’ll find that Muslims are also doing a fantastic job or slaughtering and oppressing each other too, so what’s your point?
    Again remember that only those who have committed sins can be punished for them, to paint a whole people as guilty without proof is a grave slander.”

    That was my point. That we as Muslims are not respecting each other very well, and in fact we ourselves are killing each other, hating each other, and being racist against each other, and this is what we should all focus on. Does anyone not think this is a very important priority for Muslims? But we are here busy gossiping about how evil the white lady is for saying the bad, racist things that she undoubtedly did say, but we as Muslims are doing worse things to each other, everywhere in the Ummah. Did you not read all of the previous post that I made? No where did I say that it was acceptable to do bad things or kill non-Muslim civilians. And I never did say that we must punish any or all non-Muslims for the actions of the non-Muslims perpetrating them.

    “Finally, you talk of dawah. To give dawah you have to have respect for the people you are giving dawah to. The fact that you have not referred to Shilpa Shetty by her name once, instead calling her
    “that Bollywood actress”, is a fairly good indication that you have none.”

    I must admit that I do not watch Bollywood movies, so that is the reason that I was referring to her, “Shilpa Shetty,” as that Bollywood actress, and I meant no offense to her. But at the end of the day does it really matter what their names are? I think the point of everyone’s anger is that a white British female said some apparently, ugly, and prejudiced things against a brown skinned, Indian female, is this not right? Besides, what does knowing her name or not knowing her name have anything to do with giving her dawah?

    salaam

  23. Dear Safiya:

    I’m sorry, but I used my wife’s screen name, “Keep it real,” in the previous response to you, instead of “Muslim brother.”

    salaam

  24. Chip : “Racism is an issue in society champ, sorry you don’t care. It’s attitudes like yours that meant it took so long for so many Americans to find Islam; you didn’t care about the struggles of blacks, latinos, indians…Why bother, they’re just kafirun, right?”

    I must say that, for once, I agree with brother Cletus on something.

    Muslim brother, however, posted some excellent replies. The fact that I don’t completely agree with him notwithstanding.

  25. Dariush; I’ve resisted bringing you up in a negative manner if for no other reason than that it is haraam to hold a grudge for more than three days against a fellow believer. I have a lot of venemous things I want to say, but I’ll keep them to myself. I will only tell you the truth you need to hear, and that is that you are acting disgracefully. We’ll leave aside your political predilictions; why attempt to bait Omar and I, when you’re saying you agree no less? Your own bigotry is obvious; but I don’t really care. In calling me “Cletus”, you’re implying that I come from a “redneck” background, that is, that of America’s mostly-white rural working class. What can I say? This is true. That is in fact where I’m from. A place of ignorance, racism, poverty, intellectual backwardness, where people marry their cousins, right? Wait, that describes the bulk of the Muslim world to a T. You can imply I’m a racist all you want, you can imply that I come from a lower class of society all you want. It changes nothing. However, be aware that if you look down on me because of where I came from, you are risking Jennah being barred to you.

    Peace.

  26. Posted “Besides, what does knowing her name or not knowing her name have anything to do with giving her dawah?”

    Knowing someone’s name is a very important interpersonal skill. It is one of the first things someone would need to know in building the type of relationship that would facilitate any sort of Daw’ah.

    Daw’ah, without the most basic of people skills, is bound to fail.

  27. As-Salaamu ‘alaikum,

    A small point regarding Shilpa Shetty and Gujarat: she is actually from nowhere near the parts of India where the Hindutva fanatics are strong and where there has been a lot of violence against Muslims. She is a Kannadiga from Mangalore area. I’m not saying there are no fascists in Karnataka, but they are pretty weak.

  28. Muslim brother – As Muslims we have to help solve injustice where ever we see it. Crying “What about the children of Palestine” is too often used as an excuse for not helping Non-Muslims or those close to us in society.

    As for saying “I don’t watch Bollywood films, so that’s why I don’t know her name.” I think by saying “who freaking cares” about her victimisation, you made your lack of respect for her clear.

    Reading your comments, I am thankful to Allah (swt) that not everyone thinks like you.

    Once, I was Non-Muslim. I met a Muslim. They bothered to learn my name. They were not white but they did not see me as an evil imperialist because of the colour of my skin. They did not see me as a “bimbo” because I was a woman wearing modern clothes. Instead, they answered my questions, bought me a translation of the Quran was extremely patient with me.

    I am Muslim now, Alhamdulilah, but I will never forget that in the past, I was not.

  29. Sister Safiya:

    First let me say that I’m glad you reverted to Islam, alhamdulillah. There are many like you and others that come to the Deen, but unfortunately, or fortunately, Allahu ‘Alim, it is not because of Muslims necessarily, but many times in spite of Muslims, because look at the Ummah today. We are doing bad things to each other, we are hating, being prejudiced against each other, etc. We are doing bad things to non-Muslim civilians, and saying this is halaal, or good, etc. But Allah (swt) guides whom He (swt) wills to the religion of Islam, and alhamdulillah, many non-Muslims are able to see the difference, that is between Islam, the perfect Deen, and “Muslims,” mere human beings with all of our faults. However, we all need to work on our dawah skills to bring others to Islam for the sake of Allah (swt). Sister I don’t want to argue anymore with you or others on this blog.

    But I think that you and others are missing a point that I was trying to make. Why do we as Muslims care so much about two non-Muslims on a reality show, with one apparently saying something racist or bad about the other? You see, what is happening in the Ummah everyday between Muslims is a thousand times worse.

    Why has no one brought up the despicable, disgusting, jahaliya racism that the black skinned “Arabs” have brought upon to the black skinned non-Arabs in Darfur, slaughtering, raping, and ethnically cleansing them because of their ethnicity or race? Or any other examples of our racism and prejudice toward each other? Sadly, all some Muslims can say is blame “zionists” for this evil.

    Again, why is everyone more concerned about two non-Muslim females on a reality show then what is happening between Muslims all across the Ummah, every single day?

    Salaam

  30. You are missing the point “Muslim Brother”. Umar mentioned this, I believe, because he was trying to make a point by using a mainstream issue using video, something that everyone could understand.

    You dont have to support Palestinians or Chechans to get this one, you just to have a set of eyes and ears.

    Umar made a post that would work for everyone, Jew, Christian and Muslim alike.

  31. Muslim Brother wrote:

    We are doing bad things to non-Muslim civilians, and saying this is halaal, or good, etc.

    Pot – kettle – black. IMO, this is exactly what you’ve been doing this entire thread.

  32. I just want to make a point to whom that are eligidly calling themselves smart. Would someone please explain that to me how we would help a non-muslim by posting some comments on a blog or watching her video. The real help is to give them Dawah, how, who, where, when is up to you guys to decide. Helping a non-muslim is to invite them to the Deen not to debate.

    I was actually curious if “Shilpa shetty” wanted to come to Islam and that is why she was insulted by a non-muslim white woman. Really, who cares if she was insaulted or not. I don’t “get it” why only one incident in a non-muslim society fired us up and made us be so sensitive. Don’t you see what is happening in the Ummah every day? I guess not. We are all living here and are concerned about blacks, whites, latinos….we don’t think there is Sudanees, Palestinians, Kashmiris etc.

    We think if American president is fair with Muslims our future will be bright and muslims will live prosperous life after that. What a shame, instead of fixing our prolems we expect too much from Kufar and are looking at their faces that when they will smile at us.

    Brother Abu Sinan, I really think you need to work on your Dawah skills the if you think the way Safiya sister is doing Dawah by posting some comments on a blog or watching a video is a “PROPER” Dawah than you really have some issues bro. People, will RUN from Islam if they see we don’t care about each other, they will RUN if they see us being racist in our countries. Have you for a minute taught about Darfur brother. People will not come to the Deen thinking about London Sub Way bombing, by watching muslim youth in London streets acting like gangsters and having girlfrinds going to the bars.

    I beleive you are missing a point brother, people come to the Deen because of the Deen Al Islam not becuase of you and me.

    IMO, Muslim Brother is not missing the point, we are missing the point of focussing too much on the west. Wallahi, I didn’t see any positng about Muslims or Muslims outside the eggshell of UK/US in this blog. Please show me.

    Why we don’t agree that we are doing bad things to non-muslims. We are getting welfare from UK and at the same time we are blowing up their sub-ways. We are getting their nationalities and we are accusing them of killing our people overseas while we are enjoying their warm housing and monthly rations.

  33. This Shilpa Shetty thing is ridiculous – this is a “snooty bitches” issue not a racist issue. There are real examples of racism all over the world and this stupid show is what makes front page news….pathetic.

  34. Abu Sinan
    January 23rd, 2007 at 3:35 am
    “You are missing the point “Muslim Brother”. Umar mentioned this, I believe, because he was trying to make a point by using a mainstream issue using video, something that everyone could understand.

    You dot have to support Palestinians or Chechans to get this one, you just to have a set of eyes and ears.

    Umar made a post that would work for everyone, Jew, Christian and Muslim alike.”

    No, Abu Sinan, I believe you and pretty much everyone on this blog (as they all disagree with me 100% — with the exception of my wife “Keep it real” who also chimed in) are missing the point. Go back and read my posts.

    What am I saying that is so bad and wrong that none of you agree with anything.

    Yes, brothers and sisters, tell me what is wrong with bringing up the assertion that if we do talk about non-Muslims that are having issues revolved around race and/or color, and that one is an ignorant racist, etc., that we as Muslims really, really especially need to look in our own mirror, and talk about ourselves, and correct ourselves in terms of the many deplorable, despicable, and evil jahaliya beliefs that we have against each other. This was one point that I happened to bring up in this discussion. Do you or anyone here disagree that we need to do this? Apparently so.

    One of the many issues that I brought up (as an example of how we at times hate, and are prejudiced and racist against each other and this needs to stop), you all apparently don’t think that it is a very big problem and issue that many black-skinned so-called “Arabs” are raping, slaughtering and ethnically cleansing hundreds and thousands of black skinned non-Arabs just because they are not Arabs, but “inferior” non-Arab blacks!

    The impression that I’m left with is that if the perpetrators where “white Europeans” slaughtering and raping the black Muslims of Darfur, you would all maybe think it a worthy topic to discuss. SubhanAllah! May Allah (swt) have mercy on us.

  35. Sure, we have a lot of issues in our own community that we need to deal with. Racism, classism and a lot of other “isms”. Being a white guy married to an Arab lady, I know all about a few of these.

    If that was your initial point, you did not convey it very well. It came across as something completely different.

    What it seems everyone else and I got was “why are we talking about this Kaffir lady”?

  36. “JDsg
    January 23rd, 2007 at 6:48 am
    Muslim Brother wrote:

    We are doing bad things to non-Muslim civilians, and saying this is halaal, or good, etc.

    JDsg: “Pot – kettle – black. IMO, this is exactly what you’ve been doing this entire thread.”

    Yeah JDsg, I’ve been calling for the murder and killing of non-Muslim kuffar? That’s what you are implying. Wow, what a deplorable thing to say to me. WHEN and WHERE did I ever say this? Go back and read my posts.

    Funny how you brothers and sisters, with the exception of my wife (Keep it real), don’t agree with any of the points that I brought up.

    Salaam

  37. I think it’s funny that the white commenters on here are so quickly being accused of only caring about white people when nearly all of us are in interracial marriages. Although to be fair, Umar gets frequently accused of being a racist black man too.

    My sincere advice to Muslim brother is to not only think about his message but the presentation of it, as that is what some people, myself included found offensive.

    You see, I personally find it hard to have the same disdain for non-Muslims as you have, because I know so many non-Muslims who are good people and sadly, quite a few Muslims who are very wicked. and I’m not alone in thinking this.

    If you are so concerned about dawah, take this advice from a convert : contempt is the death of dawah.

  38. Muslim Brother wrote:

    Yeah JDsg, I’ve been calling for the murder and killing of non-Muslim kuffar? That’s what you are implying. Wow, what a deplorable thing to say to me. WHEN and WHERE did I ever say this? Go back and read my posts.

    “Bad things” = Murder? Are you kidding? Do you always put words into the mouths of others? I never said anything of the sort. But you are judging us in our conversation about this woman, which we have every right to do, and deeming that it is, in effect, haram. In that regard, yes, I do consider you to be a hypocrite.

    Funny how you brothers and sisters, with the exception of my wife (Keep it real), don’t agree with any of the points that I brought up.

    Maybe that should tell you something about yourself. As far as I’m concerned, after this past message to me, you have no credibility.

  39. Brother JDsg:

    SubhanAllah brother!! how easy you can judge a Muslim. You know brother that you have to be careful by using the word “hypocrite” to a Muslim. You think you will judge someone while you will be judged by Allah (SWT).

    You are just acting juvenile, calling people names and judging people while you don’t understand them where they are coming from. See, how Shaitan can tempt you to talk about a Muslim brother to defend a Kafir woman, a pagan, not even someone from ahl al kitaab.

    By accusing Muslim Brother, “you are judging us in our conversation about this woman, which we have every right to do, and deeming that it is, in effect, haram.” saying that he judged you, I don’t see where he judged you in all his comments and where he called you a hypocrite the way you called him. Just, a very Islamic advice brother, BE CAREFULL! Next time by using this word.

    The reason why he might have said “haram” is that what the whole topic and conversation on a Kafir woman is all idle talk which Allah (SWT) doesn’t like much.

  40. You guys are wasting ALL this time whining about how there are better things to discuss. Does the chutzpah just go over your head?

    And again, it’s not a matter of Muslim vs. Kaffir, it’s a matter of RACISM. Pure and simple. Malcolm X pointed out (paraphrasing) that the reason groups like the NOI gained a foothold instead of Al-Islam among black Americans was that, quite simply, Muslims on the whole didn’t bother giving a shit about the “Kaffir” blacks. Of course, a lot of the American slave trade that brought black people here initially was based on Muslims being only too happy to sell each other to the kafirun, but why bother ever looking at anything beyond “US GREAT MUSLIMS AND THOSE WICKED KAFIR”.

    How boring and depressing.

  41. “JDsg
    January 25th, 2007 at 2:28 am
    Muslim Brother wrote:
    Yeah JDsg, I’ve been calling for the murder and killing of non-Muslim kuffar? That’s what you are implying. Wow, what a deplorable thing to say to me. WHEN and WHERE did I ever say this? Go back and read my posts.
    “Bad things” = Murder? Are you kidding? Do you always put words into the mouths of others? I never said anything of the sort. But you are judging us in our conversation about this woman, which we have every right to do, and deeming that it is, in effect, haram. In that regard, yes, I do consider you to be a hypocrite.”

    JDsg:

    First of all, you are quoting me saying this: “We are doing bad things to non-Muslim civilians, and saying this is halaal, or good, etc.” and you said:
    “Pot – kettle – black. IMO, this is exactly what you’ve been doing this entire thread.”

    Did you REALLY understand the context of my statement? —–> “We are doing bad things to non-Muslim civilians, and saying this is halaal, or good, etc.” I guess not. When I said, “Doing bad things to non-Muslim civilians” it was/is referring to the many extremist brothers blowing up subways, trains, etc., and the fact that many so-called “shooyukh” (the Abu Hamzas, the Az Zawahiris, the Omar Brooks, the Anjem Choudhurys, etc.) are all saying that these operations are “good” and “halaal.” Yet you say that I’ve been doing this the entire thread. And you now say I’ve been putting words in your mouth, when I point this out to you. Let’s just say we had a misunderstanding, or communication breakdown, as we are supposed to be brothers.

    Now brother, I NEVER said, or insinuated that what you all were talking about, was “haraam.” We can have misunderstandings, and agree to disagree, and if that was your interpretation, so be it, but all I can say is that I never intended to imply this. After the first post, in my follow up posts, I have tried to use adab, and have tried to use polite discourse in our “debate,” although I am human, and who can say that we have not made mistakes. We are all Muslims here (and I guess there are maybe a couple of non-Muslims here also), and my posts have been my opinions, my advice, including to myself, for the sake of Allah (swt).

    And now you call me a “munafiq.” SubhanAllah, what the heck is this brother? Obviously, this what you think of me. You are entitled to your opinion. But as a Muslim, it really honestly hurts that another Muslim would say this to me.

    And then you say that you don’t agree with me on any single point that I have brought up. Please think about that…… And after I say that only my wife agrees with me, you tell me —-> “Maybe that should tell you something about yourself.” and “As far as I’m concerned, after this past message to me, you have no credibility.

    You are saying that you do not agree that we Muslims should not hate, should not be prejudiced, should not be biased, and do despicable, heinous, and evil jahaliya things, etc., etc., etc., etc., against other Muslims? (to use one of the points that I brought up)

    Wallahi, the fact that you all have not agreed with a single point that I have made, really, truly tells me a lot.

    As salaamu alaikum, peace to all

  42. Safiya Sister:

    You made a point on “I think it’s funny that the white commenters on here are so quickly being accused of only caring about white people when nearly all of us are in interracial marriages.” What did you mean? I think no one offended white people here.

    If I understood the conflict started on racism and not respecting each other. If you think sister, racism is racism there is no black, latino or white. Or you are telling us that only whites are racist.

  43. Muslima -The comment I made was in response to Muslim brother saying the commenters here didn’t care about Dafur because it didn’t affect white people, basically accusing us of racism.

    No, I believe that no one has the monopoly on being bigoted.

    I note how you also cannot bring yourself to call Shilpa Shetty by her given name, instead calling her a “pagan woman”. Can you not see how this makes you look? How rude this seems? If you answer by saying , “I don’t care…. the children of palestine…” then you’ve proved my point, because you’ve shown that you have no regard for most of humanity.

  44. “Safiya:
    Muslima -The comment I made was in response to Muslim brother saying the commenters here didn’t care about Dafur because it didn’t affect white people, basically accusing us of racism.”

    No Safiya. I NEVER said that commentators didn’t care about Darfur because it didn’t affect white people. What the heck are you talking about?!?! Go back and READ what I said. Did you or your buddies here actually read anything that I posted? I guess not. What I was saying was that it seemed that if the perpetrators of the heinous violence AGAINST the black skinned non-Arab Muslims were white Europeans, INSTEAD of black skinned, dark so-called “Arabs,” then I’m sure everybody might be screaming bloody hell (I’m paraphrasing myself). EVERYONE is so focused on a white female saying something racist to a nonwhite brown female, yet when we Muslims do things a thousand times worse to each other as compared to what one insignificant TV star did to another insignificant TV star, no one seems to give a freaking damn.

    “Safiya: “I note how you also cannot bring yourself to call Shilpa Shelly by her given name, instead calling her a “pagan woman”. Can you not see how this makes you look? How rude this seems? If you answer by saying , “I don’t care…. the children of palestine…” then you’ve proved my point, because you’ve shown that you have no regard for most of humanity.”

    I know this is not addressed to me per se, but, is not this Indian actor, Shilpa Shetty, not technically a Hindu pagan? If so, what is wrong with calling her that? Are Hindus not proud of who they are, and what “Deen” they follow? As Muslims, are we not supposed to enjoin good, and forbid evil, and are we not supposed tell non-Muslims about al-Haq? Note, I’m not saying we can’t be gentle, kind and soft-spoken to them as we are doing this, as Allah (swt) tells us to talk to them in a soft, kind way, inviting them to the our Deen.

    Again, did I, or the poster you were directing this to, EVER say that we HATE non-Muslims? As you seem to not get tired of implying over and over and over. And let me ask you this, are you going to get offended if a Hindu calls you a Muslim? Do you think that if you were to refer to a Christian lady as a Christian that she would be upset? And what the heck is this focus over and over about “Palestine?” I never mentioned the children of Palestine. (I mentioned Palestine yes, and many other places)

    But with that being said, what is so wrong about talking about the children of Palestine? Are they not suffering a million times more than this Indian Bollywood actress, Shilpa Shetty, that you so tirelessly defend, implying how great and classy she is? What would be so wrong with talking for example, about the children of Palestine? Or the children of America, or the children of India that are suffering because many happen to be very, very poor, and underprivileged, etc.

    What has really puzzled me on this thread, is that basically nobody has applied the example of these two women, and the way in which Shilpa Shetty was treated in a racist way, to try to use this as an example of how we all as Muslims are doing many of these same things, and way worse to each other, all the time, and ways in which maybe we can start to address this. It utterly astounds me that nobody seems to agree that yes, we do need to look into the mirror, we do need to be more conscientious of how we treat each other, etc., etc., etc.

    And sister, one last thing, why don’t you practice what you preach about allegedly not hating, and loving humanity, before you spout off with all of these vile and ugly, unIslamic name calling and accusations.

  45. “JDsg
    January 25th, 2007 at 1:38 pm
    Muslim brother: No offense, but get a clue and buzz off. I’ve no time for the likes of you.”

    Whatever you say dude. No offense taken. Why should I have any time regardless, for such a rude, childish, uncouth acting “brother” anyway.

  46. DA:

    You make some good points, and I agree that a lot of this discussion is definitely depressing.

    Your’re contention that we need to reach out and give dawah to non-Muslims is surely very important, a very big priority and something that IMO, we are all failing at pretty bad (with the exception of a small percentage of hardworking brothers and sisters notwithstanding). And you bring up some great points in your analysis about the NOI, and how many of us Muslims were initially, at least partially at fault for their deviant beliefs. I’ve heard though that there have been many Muslims (maybe not enough though) at least recently, since the early 80s or so, trying to sincerely give them dawah, talking to them about the real Islam, telling them that are indeed outside the fold of Islam, trying to help them, and being very frank and honest calling what they do as blatant “kufr,” warning them over and over about this, but that their leaders, or at least the biggest one, Farakhan, of course letting this fall on deaf ears.

    I do agree that it’s not necessarily Muslim verse kaffir, but my focus has been that here we all are on this blog talking about these two non-Muslim contestants on UK Big brother, with the one white British female of course saying some racist things about the nonwhite Indian female. First of all, many of us seem to be acting like this incident is in of itself, like the worse thing in the world. But secondly, how can we as Muslims learn from this incident? Everyone was focusing on and on about how evil, racist, ignorant, and snooty this white female was. Not to say that she wasn’t. But how are we any better then her, as Muslims, as an Ummah? Brother, sorry to sound like a broken record here, but we are doing things to each other a thousand times worse than this white female has done. My only points have been that we really, really, need to look in the mirror, and ASAP. I mean think about it. Everyone is so high and mighty with the attitude about how we are so “better,” and so “superior” to that trashy, ignorant, white female. But again, IMO, instead of feeling all high and mighty, we need to focus on our own hate, bigotry, and plain jahaliya ignorance that we feel towards our own brothers and sisters, and really, sincerely try to put an end to it. May Allah (swt) guide us….

  47. Muslim Brother,

    Your words, the way you project yourself, they are not good for Da’wah. As a convert myself I can tell you that the way you do things will make people RUN SCREAMING from Islam.

    It is said that if you cannot debate in a better manner, then dont debate at all.

    The words of people like you, your vocabulary and the way you present it, it is clearly harmful to Islam and the message of the Prophet.

    With Da’wah like that, Islam would have only ever had one follower. Thank God for the early Muslims who didnt try to spread the message of God in such a manner.

    If you have 90% of the people here telling you your manner, words and presentation are offensive, instead of again pointing the finger, dont you think it would be better to take a look at what you are doing and maybe change your methods?

    I am not saying there is anything wrong with your message, what I got out of it inbetween being annoyed by your manner and word usage. But the best of ideas fail miserably when they are presented wrong.

    You, brother, present your ideas entirely wrong, that is the reason we have all had this discussion in the first place.

    It is clear, the proof is this comments thread, that the manner of your presentation causes Fitnah, dissension even amoungst Muslims. Imagine what it does to non Muslims, people we should be calling to the deen?

    Reassess your ways brother and try again.

  48. While I know I will get in trouble for saying this, but I personally would look more favorably on any religion that expressed honesty and humility than one that denies its skeletons.

    Sure, focusing solely on one side of the story will win over those who are easily swayed. But if you can tell the complete truth and still make a convert, that to me is a sign of a confident and noble ideology.

    This goes equally well with Christianity, Democracy, Capitalism, Communism, etc..

  49. Abu Sinan:

    For what it’s worth, I do appreciate your constructive criticism. I would have to say I disagree with much of it, but certainly not all of it. You obviously put all the blame on me, as is your prerogative, but at the same time, you don’t critique the rude, insensitive name calling, labeling, and childish accusations made by other folks posting here.

    To everyone:

    I have been extremely disappointed that I have brought up various points and views, and pretty much no one has agreed with any of them (Abu Sinan reluctantly to a certain extent notwithstanding), nor has anyone told me why what I was saying was wrong, nor have they given me alternative views to my viewpoints. People kept saying IMO, very outrageous things, and I’m paraphrasing here — things like I’m a bigot, a racist, I hate all non-Muslims, a terrible and sorry example of a Muslim, that I’m against humanity, a really, really bad Dae’e, amongst other things. Really outrageous, insensitive things. Nonetheless, I was getting more and more defensive and frustrated, and I apologize to all because this reflected bad on my character as a Muslim. However, I will say that in some of my posts, I have admitted I have been wrong, and have also accepted that I first and foremost am the first one that needs to listen to my own advice, and have said that as Muslims (and non-Muslims who may also post) we can all agree to disagree, and not say mean and/or hurtful things to each other. Maybe you guys see me as an ignorant jerk (And I do wish this wasn’t the case), but how can you all not even listen to any of the points I brought up, and have a discussion about the various things I talked about (whether you agree or disagree); this is what debate or exchanging ideas is about.

    In closing, the initial way that I posted, was pretty harsh, and I am really sorry for that. My point was that non-Muslims are doing far worse things to us Muslims everyday, and that we as Muslims many times, treat each other a lot worse than the white British female treated the Indian female on Big Brother. Some of my additional points were, how can we as Muslims learn from this whole issue about what happened on Big Brother. And how can we apply some remedies to our various Muslim communities, in order to heal ourselves, and improve things. Do some of us ignore bigotry and racism just because Muslims are the ones perpetrating it. Do we just see whites as only being capable of racism, and bigotry. While dawah is indeed very important, some of the best dawah is how we act towards each other, and of course towards non-Muslims. Why do so many of our younger brothers (and sisters) seem to look up to and respect people who have very extremist beliefs, and say things that IMO, are very unIslamic and disturbing to say the least. These things are also hurting our dawah efforts. Anyway, sorry to be so longwinded, but I hope you all can maybe reread some of the things I brought up (whether agree or disagree) and at least think about some of it. Thanks for taking the time to read this. Sorry it was so long :)

    As-Salaamu alaikum

  50. Salaam

    Now that I see what you’re saying, I agree with much of it though not all. I think the key is simply presentation; you obviously aren’t who you came off as at first.

  51. Salam to all and specially Abu Sinan brother:

    I extremely want to be “polite” in this blog, since there is no room for “bad language” here. Please, let me know if I Oops, made a slight mistake using a bad vocabulary. First of all brother Abu Sinan let me correct you as a muslim sister. You are a revert not a convert!

    You don’t need to “RUN SCREAMING ” from Islam from some comments of Muslim Brother. There are lots of bad examples of Muslims which may make Non-Muslims who wanted to be muslim “RUN SCREAMING” from Islam.

    I really, want to give Muslim Brother credit for the fact that he stopped you all muslims from idle talk which Allah does not like. See, he was not causing fitnah, his comments were actually a sign that we all can learn from. NOT TO TALK about unrelated issues and waste our precious time on non-muslims where it is not necessary.

    Where it comes to Da’waah, it is not exactly what it was in the blog. It was not Da’waah at all it was ALL IDLE TALK or so called “debate”, on an unrelated, non-Islamic issue.

    I respect you as revert “convert” brother and I am sure you have learned alot about the deen so far. But my advise to you and other muslims is to just focus on the Deen cause we need alot of repairments in our muslim communities. Actually, muslims need us, you, me, Safiya sister and etc. We are the educated ones, we should learn more about the Deen to educate others. The ones that are suffering from lack of Islamic education. That is why they are watching Big Brother and so on.

    You brother and Safiya sister, need to focus more on the Deen. Becuase the early muslims were not watching Big Brother or debating about it they were improving their Deen using other Da’waah techniques.

    Jazakumullah-u-llaho-Khairun.

  52. Muslima – Firstly, some call themselves converts, some reverts. It is entirely a matter of personal preference. All converts/reverts are familar with the debate. Myself and Abu Sinan chose to call ourselves converts (as does Sheikh Hamza Yusef). I would appreciate it if you respect that choice. We do have the daleel for it too.

    Sister, I understand that you feel we need guidance.

    May I say two things. Firstly, who is to judge what is idle talk?

    I alone will be answerable for my actions on the day of judgement. I did not feel this to be idle talk.

    Rightly or wrongly, the original issue was major news in my country. I feel it is important to be interested in issue that happen near me, even if they involve non-Muslims. I do feel it is a matter worth discussing. If you don’t, I understand that, but it doesn’t mean you have the right to stop others discussing too.

    We’re all adults and from what I know of the regular bloggers here, is that we all take our Deen very seriously.

    Sister, it is not for you to say how we spend our time. Do you know our intention? If not, then how can you say we are wasting our time?

    Sister, I think your intention for your remarks are good, but by lecturing us and assuming we are misguiding and ill-educated Muslims, because we are converts, really you are being incredibly offensive.

    The sad thing is, you won’t understand why.

  53. As-salaamu alaikum:

    Thanks for the compliment, DA brother :) But I didn’t carry myself in the best way, and I apologize to everyone for that.

    I was too emotional, and frustrated, especially starting with the first comment. What I should have sad is that while any racism is indeed wrong and ugly, what really depresses me is all of the bad things many Muslims have to go through. Muslims are victimized by non-Muslims and we also victimize each other, oppressing one another, doing a lot of bigoted, racist things to one another. We look down at each other because of ethnicity color, tribe and so on. I know that unfortunately while this is a “normal” human characteristic regardless of ethnicity race, color, or religion, this is still really depressing and frustrating, because obviously this isn’t part of the Deen. And as I posted more on this I got more defensive. I didn’t use the best ways to talk to others and to get my points across, and again I am very sorry to everyone for that, although I still feel that I did bring up some things or points that were pertinent to the whole Big Brother controversy, but unfortunately, I was not able to get it across properly.

    Peace to everyone :)

  54. Safiya – Sister as a Muslim we all have the duty of “enjoining good and forbidding evil,” and help each other for the sake of Allah (SWT). We all should have the room for improvement and criticism until the day of resurrection. No one is perfect, every one of us needs help and guidance.

    Let me give you the daleel as to why we call reverts — reverts, and not converts.

    Allah (SWT) says: “So set you (O Muhammad) your face towards the religion (of pure Islamic Monotheism) Haneef (worship none but Allah Alone). Allaah’s Fitrah (i.e. Allah’s Islamic Monotheism) with which He has created mankind. No change let there be in Khalq-illaah (i.e. the religion of Allaah Islamic Monotheism), that is the straight religion, but most of men know not” [al-Room 30:30]

    It was narrated from Abu Hurayrah (may Allaah be pleased with him) that the Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessings of Allaah be upon him) said: “Every child is born in a state of fitrah (the natural state of man, i.e., Islam), then his parents make him into a Jew or a Christian or a Magian.” (Agreed upon).

    So, sister we are all born Muslims according the Verse from the Qura’an and the Hadith of the Prophet (SAW). The ones that are choosing the Deen Al-Islam even though they were raised by non-Muslim parents are going back to their Fitrah.

    This is not a choice it is what we should follow based on the very authentic sources. Sister, I never said that I disrespect what you are calling yourself, you are being very defensive and loaded to attack. Please, calm down sister — don’t be so defensive and stop accusing everyone. It is very O.K. that you are the regular bloggers, there is nothing wrong about it but be open to other people’s opinion. Put your self into Muslims shoes that are welcoming any kind of criticisms and corrections.

    You are very welcome to the Deen Al-Islam and I personally do not want to disrespect you as Muslim or revert. Please, please don’t think it is the case, it is actually very good that you are very passionate about the Deen and taking the Deen seriously.

    The fact is that we are in learning process and are trying to know about the Deen everyday. I am not judging you or anyone else in your “family” blog. I am giving you some hints of being humble and open to each other.

    Yes, we are responsible for our actions but we are also responsible for each other actions.

    It is nice to watch the news and talk about it but we shouldn’t brag about it too much, it is just my opinion. I really thing that, the Shelpa Shetty matter was not worth discussing. We as Muslims have the right to guide each other. We should always debate on most things from an Islamic point of view.

    I understand that you are trying to entertain and exchange information but be mindful of the issues you talk about.

  55. Brother Abu Sinan:
    You said, “Kafir, as a word, isn’t any more “non neutral” than Goy, it is how and it what context it is used. As I know the word is a loaded one, like “goy” I dot use the word Kaffir, and just usually say “non Muslim.”

    For your information, “Kafir” is an Arabic word as you know. Even if we want we cannot change it to an English word “non-Muslim.” It would be very strange if we speak Arabic and we use “non-Muslim” instead of “Kafir.” It is not loaded it is just a word to call nonbelievers. For example, the Christians never call us non-Christians they call us “Muslims” is that word also loaded or that is the way they should call us? or sometimes they call us nonbelievers also, right?

    Do think it is not proper to say Assalaam-u-Alaikum? Or use the word Allah (SWT), etc., in Arabic. Or it is better to say Hi instead. Which is loaded I didn’t get it.

    You said “Those Muslims who bang on about the “kuffar” tend to be extremists.” You seem to be labeling millions of non-extremist/terrorist Muslims. I don’t know what your point is? What if an extremist/terrorist used the word “non-Muslim,” is that going to make him less of an extremist/terrorist?

  56. “…there is nothing wrong about it but be open to other people’s opinion. Put your self into Muslims shoes that are welcoming any kind of criticisms and corrections.”

    I feel in her post Sister Safiya did understand and respond to your criticism and then she asked you to respect her informed choice of what term she wants to use. She said “all converts/reverts are familar with the debate…I would appreciate it if you respect that choice. We do have the daleel for it too.”

    I hope you can see that Sister Safiya was very clear that she was educated on the matter. Because she feels “convert” is the appropriate term to use for herself does not mean she is ignorant of the argument. It only means her final decision on the matter is different than yours.

    And you said “this is not a choice it is what we should follow based on the very authentic sources.” I respectfully disagree, as I know informed Muslims who feel that it is a choice, and they are also familiar with the authentic sources.

    To disrespect their wishes and refer to them by a term they do not wish to be called I feel is improper. If you feel uncomfortable using ‘convert’ or ‘revert’ then perhaps you should refrain from using either term to those who have specifically asked not to be called by one of them.

  57. I have never had one person ever bring me a SINGLE verse in the Quran that labels ALL Jews and Christians and other non Muslim monotheists as kafirs. Meanwhile i can give you several verses in the Quran where God says Jews and Christians can be righteous and enter paradise.

  58. Sister Safia,

    Revert/Convert the same difference in your analogy, lets just put it this way. As long as you muslim this is good enough.

    Brother Mohamed,
    Please, read Qura’an again and don’t mis-quote Allah (SWT) since there is no room for that.

  59. Salaam Mohamed:

    You may be technically correct in terms of there not being a single verse in the Qur’an that labels all of the people of the book as kuffar, but surely, Allah (swt) says that if anyone chooses a religion other then Islam he/she will not go to paradise. Here are various translations of this ayah:

    Yusuf Ali:[003:085] If anyone desires a religion other than Islam (submission to God), never will it be accepted of him; and in the Hereafter He will be in the ranks of those who have lost (All spiritual good).

    Shakir:[003:085] And whoever desires a religion other than Islam, it shall not be accepted from him, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers.

    Pickthall:[003:085] And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.

    Muhammad Al-Hilali & Muhsin Khan:[003:085] And whoever seeks a religion other than Islam, it will never be accepted of him, and in the Hereafter he will be one of the losers.

  60. “Pickthall:[003:085] And whoso seeketh as religion other than the Surrender (to Allah) it will not be accepted from him, and he will be a loser in the Hereafter.”
    This is the translation that makes the most sense to me, as “Surrender to Allah.” Doesn’t the Qur’an refer to Prophet Abraham and the earlier Prohpets as Muslims? But it is not possible that they were “Muslims” because Islam as an organized religion of course did not exist. But they were muslim, they were of those who surrender themselves to God. Jews and Christians can also be of those who “surrender themselves to God” and the Qur’an repeatedly makes this point when it refers to those of the People of the Book who spend all night in prayer and who fear God.

    And Mohamed is correct, there are verses that refer specifically to Jews and Christians and those who believe in God and the Day of Judgement as attaining paradise. There are several verses like this actually.

  61. There are verses such as this, but you have to follow the chronology of the Quran and see that those verses were abrogated. If you do not believe in tauheed, and the Prophethood of Muhammad (pbuh) then you are a kafir and ahlul khitab are just a sub-category of kufar and that is just a statement of fact. If you disbelieve in Islam you are a kafir and that does not mean I hate you or want to kill you or to oppress you it simply means that I would like to give you the dawah of al-Islam and do not accept any other faith as equal to that of the Quran.

    If other faiths are equal to Islam, and if believing that a man died for our sins on a cross and rose from the dead or we wash away our sins in the Ganges River is as good in believing la ilaha ilulllah then why are we Muslims?

    It is the secular culture of moral and cultural relativism that has seeped into religion that causes us to have this discussion.

    Calling someone a kakir does not mean you want them dead, denying someones kufr can create problems for ones own Islam.

    This is an interesting discussion, and I started reading it and was disagreeing with Muslim Brother and the ilk on their issues and now I agree with them on others, that is the kind of discussion I like.

  62. I have never heard that those particular verses were abrogated, but I do not think I would believe they were in any case. The Qur’an makes the same point in too many different places for it to be thrown aside.

    “If other faiths are equal to Islam, and if believing that a man died for our sins on a cross and rose from the dead or we wash away our sins in the Ganges River is as good in believing la ilaha ilulllah then why are we Muslims?”

    I don’t believe anyone brought up polytheists, but people are focusing on the People of the Book, with the same assumption that the Qur’an makes, that there are those among them who have strayed and also those among them who have stayed true to God. “No god but God” is the foundation of every divine religion, acording to the Qur’an. The message has been lost to some of the followers of earlier religions, but not to all. It is to those who have not wavered that the Qur’an promises a reward with Allah.

    There are two points here which I think are being mixed up.

    1. Islam is the best and most perfect religion
    2. If you are not a Muslim you will go to Hell.

    I agree with the first, not with the second. I believe also that the Qur’an backs me up on both points.

    “It is the secular culture of moral and cultural relativism that has seeped into religion that causes us to have this discussion.”
    I actually agree with this general point. But in this case, it is not just recent interpretation that says others besides Muslims can attain Heaven, I think many scholars make the same argument. It is not the same as saying “well you don’t have to pray or fast and you can pretty much do anything you want, and that’s OK and God will love you anyway” which I think is the influence of the secular culture.

  63. Safia,

    “well you don’t have to pray or fast and you can pretty much do anything you want, and that’s OK and God will love you anyway” which I think is the influence of the secular culture.

    Good point

  64. The Qur’an itself even states that righteous Jews and Christians will go to heaven. As to believing that a man died for their sins, you might not be aware of this, but not all Christians believe this.

    At the begining of Christianity many believed that Jesus was nothing more than a prophet and was not devine. I know many such Christians today.

    As to converts/reverts, I can make up my own mind as to what to call myself. I reject anyone who tries to force their ideas down my throat. I am a Muslim and my actions are between me and God. Anyone who tries to force anything on me, whether Christian, Jews, Muslim, Hindu, you name it, will taste the same fate.

    Yes, we are asked to enjoin people to do good and refrain from evil, but it is a sad statement of fact that most people that are so interested in OTHER people’s issues are the ones who usually have the biggest issues of their own.

    The best example are those known as the Mutaween (مطوعين ) in Saudi. Those, who on the surface of things are charged with preventing vice, yet they are the ones that are most often guilty of it themselves.

    This world would be a MUCH better place if people paid more attention to themselves and LESS attention to others.

    [2.62] Surely those who believe, and those who are Jews, and the Christians, and the Sabians, whoever believes in Allah and the Last day and does good, they shall have their reward from their Lord, and there is no fear for them, nor shall they grieve.

    The above verse from The Qur’an makes it clear that Jews and Christians can go to heaven. Unless, of course, some of you out there contend that God actually makes mistakes.

    There are Jews and Christians that will go to heaven. There are many Muslims that will burn in hell.

    To think any different is to deny the word of God as written in His Book.

    May God save us all from this fate. The best way to save yourself from this fate is to do just that, worry about YOURSELF.

    There also seems to be a growing trend on this thread of born Muslims wanting to look down on converts. Fact is, unlike yourself, we made a conscious choice to convert to Islam, often loosing friends, family, spouses, you name it. Your deen is not better than ours simply because you were born Muslim, often it is the exact opposite because you take your deen for granted.

    Instead of worrying about others, watch your own arrogance instead.

    Allah Ma3akum.

  65. There are many Ayat in the Noble Qur’an where it clearly says that the Kuffar have been rejected by Allah (SWT). For example in Surat Al-Fatihah, in the last part, Allah (SWT) clearly says: The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (they are the Jews), nor of those who went astray (they are the Christians)

    [Surah Al Maidah 5:73] And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah.

    [Surah At Taubah 9:30] Verily, those who disbelieve from among the People of the Scripture and idolaters will abide in the fire of Hell. They are the worst of creatures.

    These above Ayat are Allah’s (SWT) words, and Allah does not lie. There is no doubt that the Kuffar are going to the Hell fire. The only thing we can do is to make Duaa’s for them to revert back to their Fitrah and choose the Deen Al Islam. As we are all born Muslim and whether we are born in Muslim families or non-Muslim families, we are all Muslims and the followers of The Hanif, Ibrahim (AS). He was not a Jew nor a Christian – he was a Hanif, who believed in Tawheed.

    I personally make Duaa’s to the one and only Creator to open every human beings’ Heart and bring them back to their Deen Al Islam. As far as allegedly putting down reverts/converts, it is just a misunderstanding and misinterpretation of what I said.

    Yes, we should all care about each other especially nowadays, as we are suffering a lot from being in a “self-centered” type of ideology. Our brothers in wealthy Muslim countries are very much worried about their own business only and do not pay attention to what is happening in the other parts of the Ummah. We all should be concerned about each others’ lives, because if we don’t, we will be like Bani-Israel and indeed will have very bad, and dire consequences.

    I may have lots of issues, but I will need my other Muslim brothers and sisters to help me. That is why we should all go to Masajids for congregation and seek advice from the Imam or ask for help from another Muslim. Haj and Eid are good examples of interaction with different ethnicities, colors, etc. Isn’t it true that if one part of our body hurts the whole body will suffer?

    If “born” Muslims were taking their religion for granted, there would be no Muslims in the world. There would be no reverts/converts now. We “born” Muslims are facing a lot of Fitnas in our countries and are struggling to follow Allah’s way and are fighting for the Deen. We “born” Muslims are dying for the sake of the OUR Deen. The rights that an American Muslim has here in America, WE “born” Muslims don’t, we will be locked up if we talk about the Deen by our Taghout government, etc. We “born” Muslims have issues in our families too. We “born” Muslims are not allowed to wear Hijaab in the cities, and just name it, so basically I would kindly advise you as your sister to please take your words back brother.

    This world would be a much, much better place if we MUSLIMS had one voice and more concern about each other. IF we were like Omar (RA), to ask people please, let me know what else I can do to be a good Muslim leader. If we were more open to other Muslim criticisms and embracing their willingness to help us. If we were more humble and down to earth.

    It is very clear that no one will go to Jannah except those who believe in Allah and Tawheed and the last and seal of the prophets, the RasoolAllah (saw). Allah has promised that all Muslims will go to Jannah if they obey Allah and act like a Muslim and their Iman stays shining.

    If righteous Christians and Jews are going to Jannah, then why is Islam the fastest growing Deen in the whole world today.

    Jazakumullah u khairun

  66. “For example in Surat Al-Fatihah, in the last part, Allah (SWT) clearly says: The Way of those on whom You have bestowed Your Grace, not (the way) of those who earned Your Anger (they are the Jews), nor of those who went astray (they are the Christians)”
    The parts of the verse in parenthesis have been inserted into the original text and that’s why they are in paranthesis, they are not Allah’s words, only an interpretation. There is no mention of Jews or Christians in this verse.

    “There are Jews and Christians that will go to heaven. There are many Muslims that will burn in hell.

    To think any different is to deny the word of God as written in His Book.”
    Yes, I think that makes the point pretty well. The verse you cited is also repeated a few times in different places.

    But there are believers in every religion who believe that every one else will burn in Hell. I’ve always felt that was a strong point of the Qur’an, that it praises and promises reward to all those who worship God alone, and the sincere believers among the People of the Book.

    I guess ultimately, it doesn’t really matter what we think about where everyone else ends up.

  67. The worst sin is SHIRK, and christians and Jews they bring shirk and disobey Allah(SWT). Again reffereing to the Aaya – [Surah Al Maidah 5:73] And the Jews say: Ezra is the son of Allah, and the Christians say: The Messiah is the son of Allah.

    So, whoever bring Shirk to the onness of Allah(SWT) is a Kafir and will taste the Hell fire in the day of resurrection. Yes, Muslims will go to Hell fire too just to be punished for their sins to be washed away. Because Jannah is a very pure creation of Allah and only those who are pure can enter it.

    As far as the Surat Al Fatiha is concerned, there is a Hadith narrated by ‘Adi bin Hatim (RA): I asked Allah’s Messenger (SAW) about the Statement of Allah:1.”Ghairi l-maghdubi ‘alaihim (not the way of those who earned Your Anger).”he (SAW) replied”They are the Jews”. And 2.”Wa la d-dallin (nor of those who went astray), “he (SAW) replied: “The Christians, and they are the ones who went astray” [This Hadith is quoted by At-tirmidhi and Abu Dawud].

    There are, Muhadithin and Ulama who are agreed up on this too (Please check Tafsir Ibn Kathir). Eventhough, Allah (SWT) hasn’t mentioned the Jews and Christians directly in the aya, it clearly replies to the Christians and Jews and “you just have have a sets of eyes and ears to get it”.

    Nothing that I mentioned about this is from my opinion or imaginations. It isbased on the facts and truths from the Qur’aan and Hadith. We or people from other religions should be in this misunderstanding and shouldn’t fool themselves.

  68. Assalamu’alaikum warahmatullah.

    Before commenting,could I know Muslima’s email. I’m from Indonesia,you see. I’m at hunaini@bdg.centrin.net.id

    Uhmm,I want to share my knowledge from a software named Braintest. And that is,”A considerate person tends to look for another person who is considerate to the subject being presented. People who consider themselves aren’t spontaneous,are those people who have right brain dominance. While people who consider themselves as less decisive are actually those who want to be more spontaneous and more considerate”.

    About “Innalladziina aamanuu walladziina haaduu wan nashaara wash shabiina wa ‘amila shalihan man aamana billaahi wal yaumil aakhiir… “. In here things to watch out really… that the “wa” after aamanuu is used by Allah Subhanahu wa Ta’ala,not “tsumma”. After we get that… then we go the REALITY of opposition to aamana billahi wal yaumil aakhiir,even in every Nazorean Christians and Judeo Christians. Even people who do not have amal shalih at all,they will still enter Jannah finally. When Rasulullah said that people who has arrogance in their heart as much as a dzarrah,and people who are an accusers,and people who are often doing adultery WON’T enter Jannah,that as a fierce warning. That they will surely enter Naar first.

    In my country,there’s still ethnicists. And this is likely to be one of the elements of arrogance(kibar and khuyala’),which is “reject the truth and lowering human being”

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