15 Things the Imam Wont Talk About at Jummahu

  1. The fact that a large number of the children of immigrant Muslims are apostating from Islam.
  2. The fact that those remaining in the deen, who do not apostate, basically consider themselves agnostics and never pray and do not fast; but are not willing to get into a huge fight with their parents by telling them they are not Muslims.
  3. While over 90% of American college graduates have been sexually active at some time, and on some campuses the figure is much higher, Muslims tend to be less active but still sexually active at high rates and while daddies little princess is getting her MBA so she can marry that “Punjabi Muslim with a PHD” she is learning more than the nuances of American capitalism on campus.
  4. The issue of child abuse; in many communities child abuse is the rule and not the exception, and in many communities where it is not the rule the kids are running wild.
  5. Absentee fathers,
  6. Wife abuse. If you are a brother and being abused by your wife that is bad, but I feel more sorry for her in the fact that she married you; but what we don’t talk about in the community is the fact that wife beating is very common and this ranges from immigrant communties to African-American communities and there have been few places, with the possible exception of East Orange, where this issue has been taken seriously. Meanwhile, brothers are looking out for brothers.
  7. The fact that you have Muslim communities with millions of dollars of income a year who have to go and beg foreign sources for money to maintain and expand Masjids and you can pass the hat on Friday to a crowd of several hundred and only get a hundred bucks.
  8. The issue of why Muslims are in America when it is known from shariah that to migrate to a non-Muslim land from a Muslim land for purposes other than dawah is haram and that if you are such a brother and are pious, you cant be that pious when you left a Muslim land for America.
  9. The failures of Muslim societies. These brothers get over here from the basket-cases called Pakistan, Egypt, Bangladesh, etc. (places that are in poverty not because of the West, America or “the Jews” but because of the failed culture and practices of the people) and talk about how great those places are and then trash America. A good khutbah would remind them they left a miserable place for a prosperous place and that they should embrace America and not only look at it as an ATM machine.
  10. Corrupt Muslim business. Delis and grocers selling bad food at high prices, dishonest cab drivers, sellers of bootleg merchandise, owners of pay phones that do not work, real estate agencies that prey on the poor, dingy restaurants selling dirty food, bloodsucking check cashers and payday loan stores and the like, what do all of these things have in common? They are fields in which Muslims dominate in many American cities. Yet, with much of the money at the Masjid coming from these sources, is the imam going to complain?
  11. Freeloading brothers in the community.
  12. Sisters who keep marrying brothers who get them pregnant and have more babies and after each divorce run to the Masjid broke. At some point we become enablers.
  13. Arab and other immigrant men marrying fat , ugly and trashy white women for a few years and holding these throwaways up as their trophy wives ( the difference in an Arab and Jewish shiksha is 100 pounds) before abandoning their white woman and kids for their cousin back home.
  14. Race relations in the community.
  15. Why immigrant brothers who are a part of failed political movements in their home countries, and cannot influence Third World backwards regimes; should be in leadership roles in the political Muslim community and not take a back seat to American brothers who actually have a clue as to what is going on.


66 thoughts on “15 Things the Imam Wont Talk About at Jummahu

  1. I dont agree with point 9, its nothing to do with failed muslim societies, failed culture or miserable countries. People are here for one reason and that is either money or education. Half of the social ills that exists in the US doesnt exist in any of those countries you mentioned.

  2. Another Umar rant about our depressing condition. I suppose you might just be wanting to get something off your chest. But when are we going to get to the point where we are sick and tired of being sick and tired. Picking the wounds does not make them heal it just makes them fester. Time for all of us to move forward in a positive direction all these types of posts do is get us more depressed. Nothing personal here Akh but at some point we need just to break out this funk we are in. Not saying we should burry our heads in the sand and just humm along to the tune of your favorite disney character “Mary Poppins”, however we need to be the change we want to see in the Ummah.

  3. Ok, some of this is just exaggerated. I really don’t believe domestic abuse is ramant. Plus the way women talk, I think you would hear about it alot more than you do, outside of certain small segments of the community.

    The Muslims who are here in the US represent an extremely small fraction of the global Muslim community, less than one percent. The majority of the Muslims live in Muslim lands or extremely large minorities (e.g. India). The majority of Muslims are extremely poor, so yeah some are going to come to America or wealthy nations and alhumdulilah so many give back to their homelands. What is wrong with that. Don’t you believe in Zakat. Muslims are all stripes give back to this country and I believe its lot more than we realize. Yes many need to fear Allah and deal in halal industries. But why do we think Muslims, 1 billion Muslims, are all going to act perfect and not sin. The human being sins, that is why Allah is Al-Ghafur (The Forgiving). That is the purpose of Islam, of Tawbah, so that we turn to Allah and recieve his guidance.

    Another thing I find perplexing is that most of what you are complaining about are diseases of the heart, yet you constantly harangue Sufis or traditional Muslims. The only cure for these issues is to purify our hearts and the only Muslims I ever hear teaching about that are the Sufis and Traditional Muslims.

  4. The purify the heart takes action. One can’t tell people to purify the heart while at the same time take their money or place them into leadership roles the same people who deal in haram careers or treat their wives and children harsh.

  5. OK, the only way they stop doing that is to purify their hearts, if you are walking around in a fog and not reflecting on Allah than you don’t even know that you are doing something wrong.

    Again, if you listen to traditional teachers such as Hamza Yusuf, Zaid Shakir, Husain Abdus Sattar, Shaykh Zulifiqar Ahmed, they deal with these issues, the root of which is a diseased or naudhubillah, dead heart.

    So I disagree they are not being dealt with, maybe the Salafis don’t deal with them but there are teachers in America and all over the Muslim world who deal with these issues.

  6. Ok, this is my last post, speaking of tazkiyya, I need to get off the internet.

    But the more I think about your post, the more I’m thinking there is like an age gap something. What I see amongst the younger Muslims (25 and under) is that many of these issues are going away. Yes there are still problems but they are being dealt with much more often than even in the 1990’s. I was telling my husband that how blessed we are, we have a very diverse group of friends and whats really cool is the class diversity. You don’t really see that amongst non-Muslims. Phd’s, hanging out with highschool grads, rich hanging out with poor. I see this all the time with Muslims. So all your points seem to be describing the community a decade ago because things are changing. Yes there are problems but its really not to the level that you are making it, IMHO.

  7. Re #8 – People have left because of oppressive regimes in Muslim lands, and intense persecution for practising their deen. I don’t mean stupid violent movements, I mean just growing a beard or wearing hijab or praying 5x or studying fiqh and all that. Sometimes migrating was a matter of life and death.

    A Malaysian friend tells me that she would never have known real Islam if it wasn’t for her years studying in the West where she joined MSAs and the like. Her country is full of cultural “stuff” that people think is religion but it isn’t.

    It’s a bitter irony that they have to go to the non-Muslims lands to be free to practice the deen.

    I looked around the world and found Canada to be the BEST. There is no Muslim land currently that we could migrate to and truly SETTLE and become citizens. If there is one, please post info because I didn’t find one.

    I am baffled, however, by Muslims who migrate to the US with the current tensions and issues. There is some good in American culture (not the Hollywood variety) but the political stuff is too much to handle. Americans who become Muslim have to work things out for themselves, I think, and it’s not my place to tell them what to do!

    I do however have an issue with people who come to the west and don’t get involved in the society in good and constructive ways (not partying and all that rubbish), and just want to huddle in ghettos and mosques. Especially if the country saved your life by giving you refugee status. You owe them something and the best thing you can give them is Islam, which includes da’wah and doing good in the society by getting involved in social issues and peaceful activism.

  8. Brother Rasheed,

    Instead of chastising Brother Umar, why don’t you offer some solutions? I see from your blog that attended Madinah University so I’m sure you have plenty of advice to offer. I look forward to your response.

  9. I don’t nessiscarily oppose “reverse hijra”. I don’t think it’s nessiscarily easier to practice Islam in “Muslim” countries than here. Nobody’s threatening to shoot me for belonging to the wrong sect, I can do Salah as I see fit without someone making takfir because I’m not wearing leather socks, My boss is cool about giving me time to pray at the Qu’ranically perscribed times (whereas in many countries I would not be allowed to do this, since they insist that you MUST do your 17 in 5 sections instead of 3), I make enough money to actually pay zakkat and zadaqah and Shaitan is not threatening me with poverty(which the rasulullah said can kill faith).

    However, I agree with your over-riding point.

  10. Bibliophile:

    Yes, I do think that right now, Canada is one of the best countries in the world!
    Yeah, we do have some issues, but they’re a looooot less than those in America and elsewhere…

  11. What a load of shit. I’m sorry but you are way off base. Your diatribe is largely based on your run ins with a few “upper class” desis and jackasses in the Muslim community. If you don’t have any solid stats don’t play sociologist.

  12. Jsamak,

    I dont need stats, I have been to over 300 masjids in America of all stripes and I am not blind.How many masjids in America have you been to and if you are going to tell me you have been to as many as me and you do not see these things then you are challenged.

    Solutions? How about tjust talking about these problems in the open.

  13. Um Abdullah said:

    “OK, the only way they stop doing that is to purify their hearts, if you are walking around in a fog and not reflecting on Allah than you don’t even know that you are doing something wrong.

    Again, if you listen to traditional teachers such as Hamza Yusuf, Zaid Shakir, Husain Abdus Sattar, Shaykh Zulifiqar Ahmed, they deal with these issues, the root of which is a diseased or naudhubillah, dead heart. ”

    I agree with you that these teachers do try address some of the problems. However, over here where I live and I think this is mostly with the men; they have serious issues with Zaytuna for some reason. I’m not sure what its about.. seems like they don’t think they are “hard enough”, to “happy” or something.

    I think far to many still lean way more to the right than to the center.

  14. You DO need stats if you’ve been to just 300 out of 2000 nosques dude. No denying that there are problems in the community, but you’ve gone way overboard in your broad generalizations. Dont play pop sociologist if you can’t produce the numbers.
    I don’t like whacky yuppie desis or dishonest halal store owners any more then you do. Do you have a solution or is fingerpointing the extent of your argument?

  15. Anyone that says they had to go to americancer to practice Islam is a liar. If they didnt learn Islam in their country its because they didnt try.

    Many muslims go to americancer and find it to be morrally decrepit then search out the masjid or MSA. Or they are looking for others they can relate to better.

    The brothers post is very accurate.

  16. Yup. If people are apostatizing (Allah forbid)because of these issues then they have to be brought up and they have to be dealt with.

  17. bibliophile, no doubt your intentions are sincere.

    But are you at all concerned that if you are successful in bringing Islam to Canada, you will be forced to move to another non-Islamic country so you can practice your religion peacefully?

    I mean, if Islam can only be truly practiced properly in non-Islamic states, isn’t it in your best interest to keep Canada Christian?

  18. bibliophile

    If you migrated from america to canada it is probably a good first step.

    Hijrah fisebillah is not an easy thing. Allah gives us different tests.

    I do believe it to be better to migrate to a muslim country and contribute to that society even if they dont give you a passport.

    Is there a difference between one non-islamic system(canada) to another(Saudi Arabia etc.)? Unless one prevents you from being muslim. Only that Canada is dar ul kufr and Saudi is dar ul Islam.

    There are people living in the Gulf states that were born there and have been there for 30 years or more and are still not citizens. I think it is still halal to live and die there. These governments want to protect their own self interests and power, by babying their citizens. They have given them everything and made them stupid and lazy. It would be better for all involved if those countries were poor.

    If you want a passport from a country with a muslim majority it is possible but maybe not as easy as Canada. Try Malaysia, I have seen many non-Malay Malaysian citizens. The state of Kelantin is fairly conservative, no cinemas, no alcohol, many Islamic schools, arabic language is taught and used by many. Kota Bharu has signs everywhere that read “Kota Bharu the Islamic city”. The people are very friendly and easy going. I have photos if you are interested. Maybe I will post them on my blog inshaAllah.

  19. “15 Things the Imam Wont Talk About at Jummahu”

    Many of these issues are taboo no matter what the religious climate. I think that within any group that holds a high value on moral excellence you will find these issues surpressed, for example the “upper-class” and small rural communities, etc.


  20. Kalel, I was referring to the state of affairs as it is now. It wasn’t always so and I pray to Allah that things will improve.

    Truthline, thank you for posting your photos on your blog. It looks beautiful but I would be worried about the climate. I get sick in tropical type weather (heat/humidity).

    Are there any temperate, politically stable Muslim countries in the world? Seriously.

  21. Oh it’s not that bad! You only sweat like mad for a few months. Your body will adjust. I used to take five showers a day, now I get by with one or two. I used to sleep on top of the covers with the fan on max. Now I sleep with the fan on low under a light blanket. Just give it a little time.

  22. Recommended read: Purification of the Soul, compiled from the works of Ibn Rajab al-Hanbali, al-Jawziyya, and al-Ghazali. Talks about the sick heart/dead heart epidemic that is plaguing the Ummah, and how to give our hearts life again.
    I’m all for talking about our problems, being frank, calling a spade a spade. Br. Umar, your first point about kids apostating…I have first-hand experience with this. Kids with some of the best parents I knew who did everything in their power to keep their kids on the straight path (these are kids I used to teach in Islamic school in the US) are now calling themselves ‘agnostic.’ As much as I’ve tried to figure out what went wrong, where they snapped and said their religion was no longer valid, I can’t. I do know, however, that the chance of that happening to a kid growing up in the MidEast is slim and none. There are multiple benefits to making hijrah, I’ve seen them first hand. Alhamdulillah.
    Anonymouse, Canada would be my 2nd choice. :)

  23. I agree with Southern Muslimah. I used to warn many immigrant muslims about the dangers of raising their children in america, and they all said the same thing. It all depends how you teach them at home. Some of those same people now beg me to take their children out of there after they have reached puberty. At that point its almost too late. They dont want to leave they just want their kids to leave. What kind of message does that send?

  24. I will also add that the kids here in the MidEast whose parents are half-Arab, half-American, are the ones who tend to excel in religious studies, Quran, and most of all, Islamic adhab. This is a phenomenon that we should be proud of, because these kids are doing some really amazing things in the deen. May Allah keep us all on the straight path. But if you’re going to make hijrah, do it before your kids hit 3rd grade. That’s when things start to fall apart in the US (yes, third grade).

  25. SouthernMuslima, it could be because the parents don’t know how to raise thier children to deal with the American environment. The ones with one Americn parent are better equiped to naturally raise thier children to effectively survive and prosper in an American environment. The reverse is also true: if I taught my children to be American while living in Egypt, they would probably hate everything American becuase it only made them severe outcasts in thier envrionment.

    As for the agnostic issue: they are open about it because the society around them will not harm them or penalize them for it. But in the Middle East, they have to pretend so they can survive. Just because they are experts in showing a Muslim public face doesn’t mean they actually believe in it or do it in private. There are plenty of times I’ve seen people open up as completely different people because I’m American and they consider me not a member of thier culture and that I won’t kill them for not conforming in private.

    All this just goes to show the harms of not integrating at least partially into the culture of where people immigrate to.

  26. How to integrate into americancer society:

    1. Go out to the bars with the guys from work.
    2. Buy the latest plasma screen TV and get a blockbuster video membership, so your kids can learn to be americans.
    3. Memorize the top 10 music hits so you can sing along while driving.
    4. Go out and get invovled in riba to buy a house and car you cant afford.
    5. Buy the biggest americancer flag you can find and fly it off your new haram house.
    6. Make sure that you decorate that house for xmas, with the best xmas tree you can find.
    7. Dont forget to put a support the raping, murdering, troops sticker on your car.

    I could go on forever but I think you get the idea.

    A muslim should be a muslim as described in QURAN and SUNNAH. Not as described in any other culture wether that be Middle East culture, South Asian culture, or americancer culture.

    Be aware of those posing to be muslim and doing the work of shaytan trying to lead others astray like OmarG.

  27. Doing the work of shaytan? Pretty harsh words there, brother.

    I in no way wanted my kids to assimilate in the ways that you mention above, that’s why I moved them OUT of America. But I do think that OmarG raised a good point in saying that some of these families (especially where both parents are immigrants, not just one) do not know how to cope in the American society; maybe they shelter their kids to the point of smothering them, which later backfires when the kids hit puberty.

    Kids are kids and want to blend in, no matter where in the world they live. Every single society/culture has its own status quo.

    But non-haram ways of integrating into the society could be, as Br. Umar mentions so often, participating in local government as long as it does not contradict Islamic teachings, getting an education in the West, volunteering in so many different capacities (AIDS hospice, child abuse awareness, Cancer Society, etc.) “Integration” does not necessarily mean “conforming” or turning one’s back on his deen.

    As an American living in Jordan, do I not have to integrate somewhat into this society in order to make life for me and for my family easier? Do I expect my Arab guests to saunter into my kitchen and open the fridge freely, taking whatever beverages and snacks they like, as I did with my American guests? Some things are cultural norms, and although I detest many of them, I can deal with most of them because I’ve made the choice to live HERE, just as the Muslim immigrants in the West have chosen to live THERE.

  28. If someone is trying deliberately to persuade others to enjoin falsehood then he is doing shaytans work.

    He knows what he is doing and I know. I choose to call him on it. Enjoin the good and forbid the evil.

    I also live in the Middle East, and Yes there are many cultural things I also detest. None of which are Islamic. I refuse to intigrate by practicing non-Islamic cultural nonsense, especially if it is haram. I prefer to tell them why they shouldnt do it. I seem to get along fine with the local people without being one of them. Allahu aalum

  29. Subhanallah Dawood, you’re experience with American society looks extremely shallow! It is very ignorant to think that integrating into American society cannot be modified by a person’s belief in Allah and his Messenger. No one *has* to drink at a bar; that’s what is so American about what we have here: freedom of choice, no compulsion in religion. I think that the people who really beleive get more reward when they live in a time and place where the society around them does not force them to act religious. Maybe that’s what you are afraid of: when Muslims have choice and prosperity and are not alienated from thier society, they most often will not follow deviant groups like Hizb Tahrir or the Jihadism you advocate on your blog. Too bad for you guys.

  30. Dawood,
    I’m 100% American. Let’s see how my life checks against your list;
    1) I had no interest in this even before I was Muslim.
    2) I don’t own a TV and haven’t for years. More the pity, as I can’t watch the lovely “Islamic” channels doing, say, a 36-part series on the Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion.
    3) I’ve always despised American mainstream music, which by the way is Top 40, not Top 10. But since the Muslim world doesn’t produce any vapid pop musice, I see why you’d single out America there.
    4) Yeah, cos materialism is unheard of in the Muslim world….At any rate, I live in a modest apartment, wear work clothes, and ride a bike.
    5) Assuming the home is haraam, and assuming the people there are hardcore nationalists, well, yeah that would be lame. Prove to me that these are conditions of living in America now. I agree the giant flag bit was stupid, but it was kicked off by people, who sound a lot like you, flying planes into buildings.
    6) Let’s assume I celebrated Christmas (which I don’t). What reflects worse on a society, some tinsel and trees OR sectarian violence, clitordectomies, and abject pverty?
    7) I’m just curious who you support politically, and why. See, I tend to doubt it’s a band of angels. For what it’s worth though, I know more Americans who were against the Iraq invasion than for it.

    Accusing someone of doing the work of Shaitan is pretty serious, and you have little to back it up. However, I’d tend to think that you are just another loudmouthed internet jihadi; backing up shit-talk, with facts or action, is probably just not how you roll.

  31. Travel abroad doesn’t always broaden one’s horizons. Sometimes, it has the opposite effect — solidifying prejudice and bigotry and narrowing the mind.

    Omar G: “There are plenty of times I’ve seen people open up as completely different people because I’m American and they consider me not a member of thier culture and that I won’t kill them for not conforming in private.”

    Case in point.

  32. Travel abroad doesn’t always broaden one’s horizons. Sometimes, it has the opposite effect — solidifying prejudice and bigotry and narrowing the mind.

    DA: “sectarian violence, clitordectomies, and abject pverty?”

    Case in point.

    sectarian violence

    Those savages have been at each other’s throats for so long — clearly they needed a dictator like Saddam to placate them and keep the peace.


    A hallowed Islamic practice, sanctioned by the Prophet (saw) himself — who personally carried out the procedure on his 3 year-old bride.

    abject pverty

    Those goddamn dune coons need to get off their lazy asses, quit pestering tourists for change and git a job.

    DA and Omar at their local masjid/klavern

  33. Yeah Dariush, when you nutcases attack the US it’s okay but state the truth about 90% of the Muslim world and suddenly I’m a Klansman (who, inexplicably, converted to Islam). But tell me there’s not rampant sectarian violence, oppression of women, and failed economic systems. Seriously, tell me this instead of vague allusions to me being a racist.

  34. Jethro: “…when you nutcases attack the US it’s okay…”

    Who exactly are these “nutcases” whom I am grouped with?

    Cleetus: “…but state the truth about 90% of the Muslim world…”

    Oooh, such a brave, unfairly maligned teller of unpleasant “truths” you are. You, Stanley Crouch, Thomas Sowell, “Ibn Warraq”, Fouad Ajami, etc. etc. Brave, brave souls.

    What exactly is “the truth” about us, sahib? I’m dying to find out.

    “…suddenly I’m a Klansman (who, inexplicably, converted to Islam).”

    “Inexplicable” is right. I have no idea why someone would voluntarily convert/revert to a deen whose adherents are seen by him as being such backwards, ignorant, violent, primitive savages.

    At least Robert Spencer and Daniel Pipes are consistent.

    What exactly is your beef with Comrade Sandalio? I would think that you’d embrace him as a “brother.”

    “…vague allusions to me being a racist.”

    Vague? How much more obvious could I have possibly been?

  35. OmarG

    “you’re experience with American society looks extremely shallow!”

    Since my heritage is scottish and my Great great great grandfather fought and died in the american civil war and I lived in america for 39 years I would say that my experience with american society is pretty extensive. I do believe that your experience with muslim societies is not much more than what you have been brainwashed with.

    The only things I advocate on my blog and anywhere else are truth and justice.

    What you are advocating is falsehood and hate torward muslims. That seems like shaytans work to me.

    ..and DA,

    The list is some of what you need to do to be accepted in american society. I should know because i refused to compromise Islam for the sake of getting along and I was hated by everyone at my job of 10 years and my neighbors because of it. Because I choose to pray, and not eat pork not go out drinking my wife wears hijab etc. i was an outcast. I find americans to be the most intolerant people on earth and I have been to many places.

    “Accusing someone of doing the work of Shaitan is pretty serious, and you have little to back it up. However, I’d tend to think that you are just another loudmouthed internet jihadi; backing up shit-talk, with facts or action, is probably just not how you roll.”

    His own words are my proof. I have a very deep love for the truth. When did I ever mention jihad?

  36. Dawood, you are right brother I couldn’t agree with you more.

    What I would like to know is do they get paid or are they genuine in their hate towards Muslims?

    Thanks for having the gonads to bring it up.

    Jazakallah khair

  37. Well Dawood, if in all those years all you did was drink and be promiscusous, then I think it explains very well what you write…

    Dariush, I thought you said you outgrew the racism your family practiced. I don’t think so, when you use terms like ‘Jethro’ and ‘Cletus’ and so on. I think you are just like them, and maybe even one of those schizo children of immigrants who failed to adjust to new surroundings. I feel bad for you, man, really bad for both of you, actually.

  38. I’d like to thnk Dariush for completely proving my point about how immigrants act racist towards indigenous converts. People just don’t come up with the whole Cletus-Jethro rhetoric overnight; its something he had brewing for a long time. People like Dawood swallow whatever people like dariush leave for them. Swallowing and being a self-hating Westerner = good Muslim; rejecting thier superiority and preferring one’s own indigenous halal heritage= bad Muslim, the way dariush tries to tell DA he’s a bad Muslim and absurdly equalizes him with the Klan. This is exactly what I’ve been saying all along. Excellent illustration!

  39. >>Dawood never said he drank or was premiscuous.

    He doesn’t have to. The fact that these were topmost in his mind and that he thinks these things represent the whole American experience and culture tells me
    *all* I need to know! Shallowness.

  40. Omar: “I feel bad for you, man, really bad for both of you, actually.”

    Jeepers, Omar, that’s really sweet. But there’s no need to “feel bad” for me.

    What I’ve said here has nothing to do with the “failure to adjust” that is the perpetual curse of dem immigants.

    It’s simply about having had it up to here with dipshit peckerwoods and their whiney, self-pitying ahistorical narrative (“they hate us fer ur freedumbs”), their inherent authoritarianism and need for a daddy figure to “keep them safe” and “protect the homeland”, their flat-out worship of the warfare state and the “unitary executive” as a numinous being, a Sun King who embodies our collective national “will”, and their nearly complete and total ignorance of the world around them (equal parts willful and “taught” or ingrained) — empty vessels who become perfect devotees of state propaganda via Fox News.

    This sums it all up nicely.

    Viva Aztlan!

    The sooner, the better.

  41. Omar: “People like Dawood swallow whatever people like dariush leave for them. Swallowing and being a self-hating Westerner = good Muslim;”

    Uh, yeah, that’s it. Dawood follows my orders, as is only natural for a “self-hating Westerner.”

    “rejecting thier superiority and preferring one’s own indigenous halal heritage= bad Muslim”

    Oh, bar pedar-e har chi laanat. I have never proclaimed to be superior to anyone based on my ethnicity or culture — unlike certain posters here.

    It’s only natural for people to have a certain preference for their own culture. The guy (I forget his name) who said that he had a deep appreciation for his German ancestry and the culture that’s tied to that ancestry is a great example. He has every right to feel this way and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it. Perfectly natural and normal.

    However, he is not the one making ignorant statements about how “Muslims open up to me, because they know that I’m not from their culture, and hence they don’t have to worry about getting killed for anything they might to say to me.”

    He also did not condemn the poor for their poverty, declare FGM to be a Muslim practice, or declare that violent sectarianism is the norm for Muslim societies. DA, on the other hand, did all three.

    “the way dariush tries to tell DA he’s a bad Muslim and absurdly equalizes him with the Klan.”

    Absurd nothing. There’s a hair’s difference between the rhetoric of yourself and DA, and that which is posted daily on Little Green Footballs, Jihad Watch and related sites.

    And I don’t know, nor do I care to know, how good or bad of a Muslim DA is. I just think he’d be a lot happier if he put as much distance between himself and this culture that he has so much contempt and disdain for as soon as possible.

    And after all, nothing is more important than personal happiness… right, Omar?

  42. OmarG, you are one sick twisted individual.

    If the man lived in America for 39 years you have to admit thats long enough form an opinion.

    All he’s saying in a sarcastic way is that American society does not and will not accept practicing Muslims. Just look at the recent story of the Imams removed from the flight. It’s proof.

  43. I don’t have time for all of your nonsense right now (i’ll addres it in more detail late), but for now

    “He also did not condemn the poor for their poverty, declare FGM to be a Muslim practice, or declare that violent sectarianism is the norm for Muslim societies. DA, on the other hand, did all three.”

    In condemned failed economic and social systems for the poverty over there, not the poor. Of course, though like everything else it’s the US and Israel’s fault. Nobody with a ‘Ibn’ in their name is ever to blame for anything, right?

    I didn’t declare FGM to be a Muslim practice. But if you tell me that people who consider themselves Muslims don’t practice it on a larger scale that others, you’re either a liar or stupid.

    Yeah, you got me. There’s no violent sectarianism in Muslim countries. Everybody gets along swimmingly and by golly, the economy does great too cos the tooth fairy gives us all a dollar when we loose a tooth.

    “just think he’d be a lot happier if he put as much distance between himself and this culture that he has so much contempt and disdain for as soon as possible.”

    Get it through your head, you racist piece of shit. Islam is not your culture. You don’t own Muhammed’s revelation by virtue of having a grandpa named Abdul Rahman.

    Yeah, I’m like LGF. THAT’S why I constantly go off on neocons and Zionists, cos I just hate Muslims so much. Fuckin retard.

  44. What is lacking here from our brothers in the “love it or leave it” crowd is any practicable suggestion for what muslim immigrants ought to be doing. If I as an immigrant muslim turn to this thread for advice (God help me), what do I come away with? If you’re just blowing off steam, fine. I don’t think anyone in this thread would argue that there are problems that exist amongst the immigrant communities. No one in this thread would argue that muslims in America need to find an American way to practice their religion (please bear with me for just a moment, brs. truthline and dawood). In fact, I’m sure we could find consensus around this statement from Sherman Jackson that American Muslims are

    an amalgamation of races, ethnicities, classes and perhaps most importantly, histories, bound together by a common commitment to a set of basic religious/theological postulates and an ongoing exchange, in word and in deed, about what those religious and theological postulates mean, in the context for their desire for a dignified and self-respecting existence as Muslims in America.”

    But then what? As Br. Marqas said, let’s get down to brass tacks.

    What we’re hearing is:
    Immigrants should not teach hate of America.
    Immigrants should allow “native” muslims a say in the direction of the community.
    Immigrants should participate more in the affairs of the country in general, and in the affairs of black american muslims in specific.

    Yes, yes, and yes. Inshallah, we will all take that to heart, and jazakallah khayran for the advice. But then what? This integration into American society that is being proposed, what does it look like? Can I eat with my hands? Can I wear a long beard? Can I speak my own language? Can I follow a madhhab?

    Finally, I would say that requests for more integration in generic terms from the mouth of a black american is far more palatable because it is understood that room is being made for individual identities and cultures, because black people, it can be gently understated, are not of one mind about the desirability of dissolving into white society. When that same call comes from the mouth of a white person, muslim or no, with the very best of intentions or no, it has a very different tone indeed, and to ignore that is to be blind to the reality of racism in American society. UmmAli summed it up very neatly when she said:

    white people who convert and are visibly Muslim certainly take on new burdens, but they’ve shed no privilege.

  45. After reading the comments, I was so ticked off that I struck my desk and was sent home with a sore hand.
    I then read the opening of Omar G’s blog, and I’m already familiar with Dawood’s blog. In terms of opinion, I side with Dawood because of his experience and plain speaking. OmarG, I came into Islam with the same mindset as you, to help Muslims reform themselves from un-Islamic cultural practices. So I sympathize if that is your intent. But to westernize Islam is a slap in the face just as many immigrants’ attempts to easternize us western-born Muslims is a slap in the face to the practical advice we might have for them. To put it bluntly, eastern and middle and western Muslims alike have failed ! You and I are only a throne or election away from being an apostate leader of a so-called Muslim nation. The Taliban could not have done any better than they did, what else would we have ever heard from the news? The Afghans don’t like them? So? They brought law and order, and may or may not have been too harsh in their application of Shariah, but then again, they were dealing with a broken people who were fresh out of a communist occupation. I didn’t agree with them mandating the burkah, but then again, rapes were rampant, and rapists who had let their victims live would now have killed their victims if they met them again to avoid being reported to the Taliban for committing rape. They had to learn modesty, and marriage was difficult in that war-torn economy. There was little money to open schools PERIOD, and the news then said they oppressed women by not opening girls’ schools. So WE bought it; hook, line and sinker. But you know, the southern Americans at one time told Northerners that us Black people had tails, so that they’d be convinced that abolition was not a worthy cause.
    See, Dawood migrated to a land of Muslims after 39 years in the US and experience with it as a practicing Muslim. And yet, he admitted that Muslims suffered from un-Islamic cultural practices. He was just being honest. Your website sounded like an integrationist’s dream. “The Western Muslim?” What is that? What is the “Eastern Muslim?” Both of them want their culture to dominate Islam, despite the hadith that Islam is to dominate and not be dominated, and that means not by an ethnic culture, either. Allah didn’t reveal Arab culture to the Arabs. They already had that, and were burying 2 year old girls alive! Allah didn’t reveal Malay culture, either, even though they’re generally a fair and un-hostile people who don’t start fights with other Muslims like Arabs and Desis do.
    Dawood and Dariush have never supported participating in a kafir system, they opposed it, and the classical scholars called that part of tawhid al hakimiyah, meaning the oneness of Allah’s rulership. Hijrah and jihad and walaa wal baraa are all distinct from oppressing non-Muslims for their faith. And they’re necessary for us to have honor again, because this integration you’re proposing might not be compromise in your mind, but it will turn out to be even if it’s not your intention, and then Muslims will be as neutralized a group as are African-Americans now. Or worse, the Native Americans whose numbers are so small that they’d have to wear a headdress to not be mistaken for Mexicans.
    I’m not saying this out of hate for you, unless I found out you really are an agent for shaytan as Dawood said. But with his experience, you might as well be as far as he can see, because he experienced this system more than us, and knows what you’re calling us to. What you propose might be good as a last resort for those unable to make hijrah, but not for those of us who can get out of here fast. And you might be right about Muslim countries being oppressive of Muslims, too. So, go to my site and participate in the survey I’m conducting as to why Muslims don’t even move to neutral nations that aren’t killing Muslims. Riddle me that!
    And you all lay off of Dawood! If you disagree, ask his evidence unless, he’s stated it already. If he has, try and prove he’s using abrogated evidence! Quit being hard on Muslims who see this system’s failures and want a righteous caliphate like what Allah commanded! They want more for you than you want for yourselves!

  46. All right, in all fairness, I just read Bin Gregory’s blog post about American Islam and learning from immigrants. That’s all I was trying to say.
    It seems that Muslims agree that Paki/Desi culture and Arab culture are the biggest drags on implementation of Islam in our lives. I humbly add my own ethnic culture to that, as African-Americans have over-reacted to the forst two by refusing to learn the good from them. But Muslims also seem to agree that Malays have Islam and a culture that works for them over all. Maybe their culture can be an example of a starting point for us. Notice I said ‘starting point’ and I emphasize that. If America is killing us, and it is, and Saudi Arabia is killing/jailing the righteous scholars, and it is, then why not a place like Kelantin, Malaysia, where the semi-autonomy of the state allows them to outlaw unIslamic elements more so than Kuala Lampur? Why not Malaysia, where there is still hygiene and cleanliness mixed with tradition that is overall still Islamic?
    Dawood, salaam alykum and thanks for the reference to Kelantin. May Allah reward you. I just want to be fair about these things.

  47. >>To put it bluntly, eastern and middle and western Muslims alike have failed !

    So, what’s in the middle of the two?? It seems some are Muslims are trying to build something new, but you just can’t go and build a whole new culture while still living in either the West of the East (to be honest, there really are no such things as “West” and “East”; you can find Western ideas in the East and Eastern practices in the West and I’ve not met someone who can draw a clear border between the two). From observation, I can say that culture trumps religion when it comes to society, economy and politics; always has, always will. Religion only trumps culture when it comes to the God, worship, the Unseen and theology (ilm al-kalam). So, I call for us to get real about that and stop playing fantasy by saying we’re “just Muslim” and denying that our cultures, whether American or Middle Eastern shape up deeply, however religious we think ourselves to be.

  48. “Maybe their culture can be an example of a starting point for us.”

    Maybe our culture can be a starting point for us?
    Maybe thats what the Malays have done and is the reason for their success?

  49. Why not get rid of all man made culture? It is the cultural practices that Muslims have that give the enemies of Islam so much ammo. They attribute things like honor killings and clitorectomies to Islam.

    We should practice the culture of Quran and Sunnah.

  50. OmarG, you’re right that culture usually trumps religion, but that’s what we’re supposed to be correcting. Otherwise, you’d still be Catholic in the name of family tradition.
    Hood, maybe it IS why Malays are successful, but only partially if so, because they have had to filter out many things like everyone else. The success comes in obeying the commandmets of Allah, and that means keeping the halal and good of one’s culture and rejecting the bad. The Sahabas did so, and today even the Arabs aren’t burying their infant daughters alive, but they still have honor killings in which guilty men don’t die but guilty and innocent women alike do. Pakis are known to place culture over Islam, and their country is so failed that you can sink any of their warships just by putting it in a full bathtub. This is what THEY say.
    Dawood, what you said is the ideal. We shoot for the ideal, and if we miss we admit we missed. We shoot for the stars, and if we land in our neighbor’s tree we admit such and try again.

  51. Hi. I belong to a middle class malaysian 3rd generation desi family. I excelled in religious study but did not practise salat since none of my immediate family members observed the ritual (apart from nani). eventually Ive lost faith in the religion since it was hard to accept the contradictions. Im not willing to tell anyone that Im a non muslim simply because its none of their business. I stopped fasting altogether. I think old habits do die hard, so Ill be a teetolar for a lifetime.

  52. Assalamu’alaikum wa rahmatullaah.

    To every muslim in kuffar countries. If you’re not become Da’i there,could you promote health according to Sunnah Muhammad Shalallahu ‘Alaihi wa Sallam to fellow Muslims there ?. You should ask doctors there about the Habbatus Sauda(Nigella Sativa),Olive Oil,honey and al Hijaamah. You might as well know hijaamah,but do you really understand about how it works ?.

    You gonna hear from doctor or physician,that blood contained in our surface skin,are all dirty blood and broken from it’s function and instead is a burden to our body system. So,we use alcohol to sterilizes the “painless needle” and we sterililizes the cup to do hijaamah/”blood sucking through equipments that aren’t hurting,except just like a bite of a musquieto”.

    On the contrary,blood from deeper skin is clean blood. Moreover the same positive effect of blood donors could be obtained,that is from the body which produced fresher blood to flow to replace lost blood.

    Nigella Sativa is really effective medicine compares to other best medicines. I would suggest that every Muslim to promote these medicines,so these very rooted in Islam,the ingredients for curing diseases could be part of rahmatal lil ‘aalamiin that naturally find its course in my life and your life,alhamdulillahilladzi bini’matihi ‘alaa tatimmush shaalihaat.

    I suppose,OmarG arent afraid to do hijaamah just as eating tuna banana,baked potatoes(i.e. it increases long term memory),safflower,wheat germ,olive oil,chick peas,drink skim milk etc.

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