The Weak White-Muslim Brother Getting Hitched

This is a delicate subject and I do not wish to hurt anyone’s feelings with this. However, because I have seen this situation play itself out so many times in the Muslim community, and it deeply saddens me, I think that it must be addressed.

In previous posts I have addressed the complicated dynamics of marriage in the American-Muslim community and I think we all know that it is not easy getting married for a lot of American-Muslims. Just as in America at large, there are also racial dynamics within the Muslim community in America and this can shape the preferences of Muslims as to who they want to marry. During my time as a Muslim, and my traveling through Masjids in dozens of American cities, and meeting several hundred white American Muslim males and knowing them by name, I have to say that the vast majority, as a matter of fact almost all, are married to either African-American sisters or immigrant Muslim sisters. It is also my observation that in everyone of these marriages that I personally know what is going on in the home, that the woman is wearing the pants, she is dominant, and the Muslim man who is supposed to be the head of his household is made to look like a weak soft prisoner to the will of his spouse in front of his children.

There are a lot of reasons for this, and I do not know all of them, but I will address a few. Let me also say that it is possible that this is not the case with all of the white Muslim brothers, for instance a brother like Abu Sinan or a Mustafa Nicholas, who are more masculine in their nature, are less likely to play the Edith Bunker role, than a lot of other brothers; but the fact that these brothers are weak is not just my observation, it is a conversation that has come up time and time again during my conversations with African-American Muslim and immigrant Muslim brothers and sisters.

First let us deal with the backgrounds of most white American Muslim males. These brothers disproportionately come from middle-class (and higher) suburban backgrounds and a large percentage grew-up in homes and were educated in schools that were culturally very liberal ( which of course may have given them the open minds they needed to embrace Islam).

These brothers grew-up in an era after the cultural revolution of the 1960’s and were educated in schools that promoted liberal values. A key part of all this was the mistaken belief and desire in a gender-neutral society. This gender-neutral society, from pre-school to college, shunned and discouraged any outward displays of masculinity, medicated boys for being boys, and encouraged boys to be more sensitive and get in touch with their feminine side.

Sports in many of these schools, a traditional way for men to sharpen their leadership skills and build character, was diluted during this period. Winning was no longer the most important thing, it was how you played the game, and that strong competitive edge was dulled in favor of a kind of touchy feely attitude that placed more premium on not wanting the losers to feel bad than on winning. Participation in boxing, football, and other contact sports that took a lot of courage to participate in dwindled in these schools and areas while sports like soccer and tennis flourished

These brothers grew-up being told constantly to show their emotions, tell people when they were sad, and it is OK for men to cry, and that there is no real difference between the sexes. They were indoctrinated to separate themselves from the ways and traditions of their grandfathers. They grew up with an idealized and romantic vision of love that was more befitting of teenage girls in previous generations than of men.

During this same time girls being raised in the same environment were being encouraged to be aggressive and to aspire towards leadership and to be competitive. So, in this environment, the female became dominant, and the male became her willing subordinate.

Let’s contrast this from the environment that the vast majority of our African-American and immigrant sisters grew-up in. If they grew-up in a Muslim country they grew-up in cultures and homes that it was understood that a man was to be a man, that there are clearly defined gender roles, and that the man is the leader in the household and her job is to support him and to negotiate with him, and barter, on behalf of herself and children. More than likely this sister sees marriage as a sort of a business contract, and not a fairy tale love romance, and her job is to play the game to win. When she sees her white husband not being emotionally strong, not being a leader, and with his mouth wide open like a teenage girl, she see the opportunity to move in and take over and call the shots and he becomes a slave to her desires. The brother sees it as being good to his wife, like the Prophet (sas) encouraged, while the sister sees it as her getting over on a weak and naïve brother.

The African-American sister grew-up in a community where the masculinity of the black male was celebrated (and to a certain extent this is true of the Latin community as well, but there are not enough Latino Muslims to make any generalizations). If the black man was around, which was a big if, he was wearing the pants (even if he didn’t deserve to), at least in some superficial way. At a minimum he didn’t cry and bawl and have the emotions of a ten-year old girl like many white men. Like the immigrant sister, she may want and seek love, but she grew-up in a community that was real enough to let her know that love doesn’t pay the bills and there is a lot more to a relationship than love and in a relationship it is your job to negotiate and maneuver on your own behalf. The game was passed down to her from her mother and female relatives, reinforced by her friends, and so by the time she has met any Muslim brother to marry her game is sharp as a knife. Couple this with the fact that while the brother may be soft from his background; this sister may be equally hard from her background and surroundings.

So there you have the two and how do they come together? First and foremost the answer is the naiveté that exists in the American-Muslim community. We are told that Islam is a magic cure-all for everything and that once you enter the deen it is all good and that any cultural and racial differences that people have become irrelevant. The fact that this is nonsense doesn’t seep in to people until after they have been Muslim for some time and seen all of the hypocrisy and nationalism in the community.

This leads to brothers trying to hook-up a white brother, who may be a male-version of Mary Poppins, to a sister who may be a female version of Mike Tyson, and of course the results are predictable.

While this brother seeks to be sensitive and soft to his wife, like he had been told to be since he was emasculated as a child, the sister sees him not as kind; but as weak and a punk. She does not see this as an opportunity to have a 50-50 relationship (as the priests of political correctness say), but as an opportunity to put this brother in check and make him a slave to her desires and make him shut up and do what the hell she says.

How will this affect Muslim children who see a weak father and a domineering mother? How will the little boys deal with this? These are things we need to be thinking of.

Since I am in the realist camp, whenever I see a situation such as this, I immediately tell the brother not to marry the sister; because I already know what is going to happen. Two questions also arise; why do the brothers want to marry these sisters and why do the sisters want to marry the brothers?

I think that most white-Muslims, including myself, see that entering Islam creates a separation from themselves and whiteness, and want their children to be raised to be part of an African-American or immigrant Muslim community. These brothers are also open-minded and idealistic about the value of inter-marriage (when in all reality they are much better suited to marry a white sister). Many times, because these brothers have much less game and are so much more naïve than those around them, slick-talking African-American brothers are able to pass off on them the sisters that nobody else wants who are crazy or less than physically appealing. Immigrant brothers may hook them up with a sister who is related to them and the brother is thinking deen and love and she is thinking Green Card and money.

The immigrant sister who is coming directly from overseas marries the brother for obvious reasons a lot of times; for the good of herself and her family as she will be able to live in America, send money home to the family, and arrange for her relatives to come over. This is strictly business for her and if the brother doesn’t approach it in that way, and none of these white Muslim brothers I know married to such sisters do, he will be steamrolled by the sister.

You have the other immigrant sister who has grown up in America , or has been here for a while, so she is not interested about papers; but may not want to marry her cousin, a dominant immigrant brother, and may have grown-up fetishizing American pop culture and this white brother is the closest thing to Brad Pitt she can find. This sister may still maintain a lot of the cultural values of her family when it comes to marriage and when she comes in contact with this brother she will dominate him, even if in a less overt way. For all practical purposes though this marriage will be a typical liberal-American marriage, which means that the woman will call the shots behind the farce of a 50-50 relationship.

Then you have the most grotesque example and that is of the African-American sister. This sister may have already been married (possibly multiple times) or even if she has never been married she is being hipped by those around her and she is seeking to avoid one of the many broke black brothers at the Masjid and she isn’t interested in marrying someone for papers and she has gotten word that these white brothers are an easy meal ticket. They will work, give you their money, not talk back and do what the hell you tell them to do. Because this brother is naïve; you can manipulate the hadith and the Sunnah of marriage to your advantage and sucker this brother into a miserable situation while you are spending his cash and there you have it.

If people in the Muslim community were using common sense they would be able to easily see that the best match for these white brothers is fellow white Muslim female converts or African-American and immigrant sisters who grew-up in similar backgrounds; but this is not happening. Partially because the white brothers are not thinking and do not want the white sisters, and the sisters themselves are being hotly pursued by immigrant brothers who have a white –fetish and what is best does not happen.

Let me also say that all white men do not fit this category and that I grew-up around white men who were men and the biggest man of them all in my life was my grandfather and even my father. But, there are few Muslims from the background I came from and many from the kids whose lunch money we used to steal.

What I recommend for white Muslim converts is classes on the art of Manliness and defeminization classes after taking shahadah and having some wise brothers counsel them before they get married, and even during their marriage, so they don’t disgrace themselves in front of their children. In closing I will say that this is the reason that I promote boxing, wrestling and other combat sports for Muslim boys, as is the Sunnah, to toughen them up in a nation of increasingly weak men.

“What is this love? What is this love Americans are always talking about? There is no love”.

Sheikh Muhammad al-Hanooti

“What you are going to learn here, and what you will leave here with, will stay with you for the rest of you lives. You will walk the streets as men, walk with confidence, you will know how to defend yourselves and your family, and you will be men.”

Coach Charlie Sherertz

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85 thoughts on “The Weak White-Muslim Brother Getting Hitched

  1. I will have to defer to your experience. In my family I am certainly the “man of the house” but without having to actually dominate it. My wife is my equal, as is Islamic, but I guess it is as the saying goes I am “more equal” than she is.

    And honestly, that is the way she wants it. I dont know what these immigrant sisters want. My wife was raised that the man is the head of the household, he was a man in all of the positive means of that, and was certainly masculine. My wife would not respect me, and I would not respect myself, if the roles were reversed.

    My step children had pretty much been raised in a women’s only environment after my wifes father passed away and didnt really know how to deal with the way in which a man will approach a situation compared to the way in which a woman does.

    I remember the kids tried to test this when we first got married. One notible time is when my steo-son, then 11, pushed my wife in front of me. I dont know how the aunts, my wife and her mother would have dealt with such an affront to parental authority, but I know how I dealt with it.

    In a second I had the boy on the ground, my hand around his neck, telling him if he ever dared to lay a hand on his mother again he would seriously regret it. Keep in mind in the Torah that hitting your parents was a capital offense and the children were put to death for doing so. He never did it again.

    I think the emasculation of society is causing all sorts of issues. No one knows their role or their boundries anymore, or what is expected of them.

    I guess like you, I come from a different background than most white American converts. I grew up on the streets, carrying knives and guns at age 15. My friends and I fought on almost a daily basis with others, so I am not the type to lay down for anyone, whether it is my wife, or anyone else.

    That isnt to say this is a good thing, it is just how it was. At a younger age we played sports, when hunting, shooting hiking and camping. Plus, I guess my household as a kid was rather conservative in nature, both in politics and religion.

    I have seen a white couple that are both coverts. They go to Dar al Hijrah and I have seen them at protests I have went to, anti-war and a couple at the Israeli Embassy. She is mahajaba and he always wears a kufia. They are both tall, he has blondish hair and a reddish beard.

    It might be better in most cases for whites to marry whites for the reason you have outlined, but I just dont find most white women attractive. It isnt that there is anything wrong with them, it is just personal preference.

    I also wanted someone who could help me with Arabic, and someone who knew her deen.

    I agree with you, I think counseling is a wise part of anyone getting married. There are some imams that require a few sessions before they will marry someone, Imam Majid of ADAMS center here is one that I think requires that.

    1. I remember when I was fourteen and one day i kicked my mum for not giving me what i wanted, when my dad saw this he quickly reacted and dragged me and reasonable slapped me quite hard and was extremely angry, although he never hit me before i was deeply effected by that, from that day on i never kick my mum ever again.
      Now, whenever i see people being grossly disrespective of their mothers i feel deeply sensitive to that, simply because the teaching that took place in my home.

  2. Abu Sinan, I think I know that couple that you speak of, and like you I’m not that attracted to white women either (there are acceptations) and don’t like their attitudes because most of them grew-up in the decadent ruling class of America and carry those values into Islam and expect to be treated like their you know what doesn’t stink and for their husband to be the kind of weak man their father probably was.

  3. Salam alaikoum. In response to your last comment, Umar, I gotta ask- so then what about the white convert sister who marries one of these non weak men? If your assumptions were true…that we try to translate our decadent American ruling class values into Islam and then into our marriages…then our marriages to presumably non weak men would be doomed to fail, and if we married “weak” men those marriages would fail by default because the man is not in his “proper” role. I am just trying to figure out what is the white convert sister marriage paradigm where everyone wins…

  4. Wa alaikum salaam.

    Yes sister those marriages to traditional Muslim men are almost doomed to fail and I do not have any data but a large percentage do fail and a big percentage live in misery. Now, when she marries the weak male she may be happy, but the marriage is out of balance.

    I think a situation where everyone wins is when everyone is playing their position and respectful of each other and reinforcing Islamic values within the marriage. At the hierarchy of this marriage is Islam, and the Sunnah, and it does not play a secondary role to any other psychological and social teachings of modern atheistic thought.

  5. Umar – I know two couples in which the sister is white and the brother isn’t. The sisters are both converts; the brothers are both ‘born Muslims’ and grew up in traditional households.

    One of the marriages is happy, al-Hamdulillah; the man is the man and the woman is the woman. They try to make Islam their main focus, the foundation upon which their marriage is built, and al-Hamdulillaah it seems that they are successful.

    The other marriage is not quite so happy. The woman has children from a previous marriage (before her conversion), and she has very strong Western values and believes in the ’50-50 marriage’ where the woman has power over the man. This has resulted in conflict with the husband, who was raised in Saudi.

    I guess we can say that it always depends on the individuals themselves, how strong their commitment is to the Deen and how willing they are to put aside the values they were raised with and to replace them with Islam.

  6. Maybe these white “effiminate” brothers are marrying African American sisters because all the African American brothers are out chasing after lighter skinned sisters. I actually think it’s nice that these brothers are man enough to marry the sisters that ya’ll don’t want. Allahu Alam

  7. There aren’t all that many black Muslims in this part of the country (except for L.A. and the Bay), or white Muslim reverts for that matter ( I was one of maybe half a dozen in Tucson that I knew of) so I haven’t really seen that much. Marriage is a hrd thing to figure out; yeah, there are (obviously) gender roles in Islam that contradict the gender-neautral leftist nonsense, but I’m not entirely convinced they jive with the traditional gender codes in America either. I mean, men shouldn’t be wimpy, touchy-feely eunuchs but we should not act like heartless automatons either, which was how men from my grandfather’s generation had a tendency to act. The same social codes that did a decent job of preserving mascuilinity often exaggerated it almost cartoonishly and you had seriously messed up, abusive family dynamics at times. Both seem like extremes to me, and Islam (yet again) promotes a reasonable middle path. You have rights on your wife, she has rights on you; equal, but not identical. That’s how I see it anyway.

  8. Let’s see, the only all white couples I know of are ‘Shaykh’ Yusuf Estees and his wife and my husband and his first Muslim wife(ex). That was a disaster!

    The problem with generalizing is that it leaves out the exception [smile]. My dh is noneof the above, far from the above walhamduilah! My husband is very competitive in sports, unlike described above. He also considers it weak of a man to put luggage in a trolley at the airport or use the wheels on the luggage…lol! He is an old fashion type ‘manly’ man.

    His mother was a once devout Roman Catholic, who wanted to go to convent school and be a nun until she married his father who has no particular belief system and is very liberal in everything. She grew up trying to present to them a perfect world. She was the perfect mom and wife, sacrificing everything (mostly her happiness and peace of mind) for her family. In that respect our mothers are similar. Only I come from a one parent home, and my mother had to sacrifice everything (mostly her happiness and peace of mind) for her family, but it was different. His mom got to be home and be a happy homemaker while my mom had to go out and be the mother and the father. We both come from a family of three children. He being the oldest and only boy. Me coming from a family of two girls and one baby boy. See the difference? See the potential for miscommunication in our home?

    He was the oldest respected brother, taking care of family while dad was out at sea for 6 months of the year. I was the sister who was sent to the store instead of my brother so that the gang-bangers would not bother him. I was the sister who would get in gang fights with boys who were messing with my brother. I was the sister who would fight boys who would come to me for my brother picking on their sister. I was the sister who would spend my summer job money buying my brother clothes so that he could be cool. I was the sister who was handcuff for jumping on the backs of the police for beating my brother. I was the sister who’s heart would ache and would stop breathing when the phone rang in the middle of the night and my brother wasn’t home and I would worry it was the ‘dreaded’ call. I was the sister who cried every time my brother got hurt I’m the sister who is caring for his permanently brain damaged child and trying to figure out what to do with him when he becomes an adult. Qadr Allah wa masha fa al.

    There are no strong male role models in my family…not one! My earliest childhood memory is of MY MOTHER beating my father. I was about three years old and I can still picture it like it happened yesterday. My mother once married a man more than twice her age so that we could have a good life..and we did but she was miserable. He was a prominent black attorney, featured in all the “Who’s Who” for over 50 years and when he died 7 years ago his obituary was in Jet and Ebony magazines and The Chicago Defender. But he was old, therefore weak and my mother was a strong black woman.

    I have two cousins from the same mother who were killed on the streets of Chicago and their brother did time for murder. My own father was a well intentioned, lazy, trifling, blck man (I love him dearly don’t get me wrong). He always meant well but he was a mamas boy himself so he was weak. He had a stroke the first month I went away to college, so instead of me finally being able to depend on him for support, I had to again turn to my STRONG BLACK MOTHER for her everlasting support.

    So now I am married to a man who comes from a completely different background. A man who is far from the effeminate, weak, punk that Umar describes above. A man who does not understand, if I ask him a question about a decision he makes and wonders why I “question his authority.” a man who just assumes he is naturally smarter than me because his own mother played dummy to his father (called last week and told me how extremely brilliant and intelligent his father and he are and they really aren’t. They aren’t stupid but they are far from the genius she wants me to believe they are). A man who thinks that I have no other purpose in life but to serve him and his children (I have no problem with my role has a Muslim wife but I hate that it is suppose to be limited to just cooking, cleaning, and servitude to the boss). This is the life he had as a child and this is the life he expects.

    So I want to give you another perspective on AA women married to white men. My own dh would probably agree with you about the women but not the men. He thinks I’m bossy. I of course disagree. He does not understand the dynamics of my background and how I had to work too hard to get to where I am not to be relegated to the back of the bus again. I don’t consider myself domineering or bossy (and believe me this is a big issue in our home), but I do have a hard time just accepting things as it or because with no questions asked. And you are write when you say that we as Muslims intermarry and expect that all racial issues will be dissolved or solve via Quran and Sunnah. In a perfect world maybe. At time Iwonder how in the world my dh married a black woman when he says some of the things he says. His favorite way of describing our differences is to say that he’s southern and I’m northern. I’m always like yeah right you know you wanna say black and white…lol

    Also Umar, you made it seem like AA women who marry white men are some how moving on up…like they are our saviours. In every case I know of an AA Muslim woman being married to a white convert, the sister was well educated. I myself had a good job making more money than my dh, with much more money in the bank than he, and a much better car. He always jokes with me, saying how he brought me down. I married my dh feesibillah…

    i disagree with you saying it is better for white men t marry white women. I think my dh and I compliment each other very well. where he is weak I am strong and vice versa. we have some of the most well adjusted kids we have ever seen, masha’Allah and we generally have a very good marriage because for the most part, despite our obvious differences we try to live our life in strict accordance to the Quran and Sunnah and if we have any problems no matter how big headed and stubborn we both can be, we usually refer every thing back to the Book of Allah, the guidance of His Messenger salla allahu alayhi wa sallam, and our past and contemporary scholars.

  9. Umm Adam,

    Let me address your points in order. First of all I agree that your DH is not like that; but your DH is very very unique amongst white American Muslims in that he was very socially conservative, to the right of the political spectrum, traditional, ex-military, and he held the job he held. H is old-fashioned, and that is one of the reasons I like him.

    I think that many women have to sacrifice their happiness for their families and in my mind, while regrettable, it is a noble thing. The problem today is that people have forgot about the concept of sacrifice and weathering the storm and want everything to be on a silver platter without sacrifice to them. That is why people get abortions and get divorces so easy because they do not want to sacrifice to work through their problems. Happiness is abnormal to the human condition and not everyone can or will have it. Speaking for myself I don’t think I have ever been happy in my life outside of a few weeks and days here and there or a passing moment and I don’t see a problem with that. Both of your mothers should be applauded for their sacrifice. Your mother was what a lot of black women are, and that is mom and dad, discipliner and provider, and he grew-up in a more idealized version of the American family where his mother could play more of a June Cleaver role.

    The pints you are making about your upbringing I think validate a lot of what I said. You are a string sister, and your strength grew out of the environment that you were raised in and your strength protected the boys in your family. If your DH was not who he is (and even being who he is) don’t you think that your average white brother who grew-up in a Brady Bunch like existence would have a hard time dealing with a sister as such?

    The ideal in the black community is of a strong man, but that is not always the reality. A woman like your mother had to be strong in order to get ahead and for her family to get ahead. Your mother was miserable more than likely because she wanted love and companionship; but inmost Muslim countries, where people marry their cousins and solely for money and status, what she did marrying the lawyer makes perfect sense. Because we are Americans, you and me and all of us who grew-up here, we want more from marriage and we want love, that is just the idea we were raised with in our heads, and it may mean different things to each of us, but we cannot marry solely for money and be happy.

    Back to your DH. Now, and first let me say that geography may play a role in some of this and that being where you are now may influence the power dynamics of the relationship as opposed to if you were I the states. If he was not who he is, and say he is what most white American Muslim males is, and that is a Sufi who listens to Sheikh Hamzah and is into butterflies and stuff like that, do you think that brother could deal in anyway with a sister from the south side of Chicago?

    You make an interesting point when you say that I make it seem as if the black woman is marrying up when she marries a white man and that is not what I mean. What I mean is that the black woman in the Muslim community a lot of times sees marrying the white brother as something that would be more to her advantage strategically and even finically and that she will be able to dominate the situation. I know of many white brothers who cry to brothers on the phone and who cry at home and who are weak in their won household and at the end of the day these brothers are juts too weak to be marrying these sisters, some of these brothers are even beaten by the sisters.

    In closing I think that you made a strong point in that if we set our model as Islam, and that being the Sunnah of the Messenger of Allah (sas) as understood by the early generations of Muslims, and that is the model and not Dr. Phil or the like, and then we are on the right path Insha’Allah.

  10. You are a string sister, and your strength grew out of the environment that you were raised in and your strength protected the boys in your family. If your DH was not who he is (and even being who he is) don’t you think that your average white brother who grew-up in a Brady Bunch like existence would have a hard time dealing with a sister as such?

    Yes, even more so AA men have a difficult time dealing with such sisters. I am one of those multiple marriage sisters. My first dh was AA. He was/is a good Muslim and husband. He wanted to have the ideal Muslim home…an Islamic version of Abu Adam’s childhood home. I was a recent college graduate, newly practicing Muslimah, independant, articulate, and really honestly had little trust that he could pull it off. In fact, this strong black male figure scared the you know what out of me. I couldn’t handle it, this was new to me. It was not long before I walked out the door, but not without recognizing his goodness and seeing to it that a sister who could appreciate him had him. He is now happily married for almost 10 years and living his ideal Muslim life…masha’Allah.

    Back to your DH. Now, and first let me say that geography may play a role in some of this and that being where you are now may influence the power dynamics of the relationship as opposed to if you were I the states. If he was not who he is, and say he is what most white American Muslim males is, and that is a Sufi who listens to Sheikh Hamzah and is into butterflies and stuff like that, do you think that brother could deal in anyway with a sister from the south side of Chicago?

    This question is a bit redundant, but I’ll try to answer it a little different. I do think the hijrah played a big role in how my dh is handling things. He is alot tougher than he was in the States. Enforces things that he didn’t before (but then again I blame a lot of this on his mid-life crisis…must be white thang!). I actually think that if he was the ‘sensitive’ type, I would respond better. However he is the ‘these are my expectation no excuse’ brother and that does not go over to well with the ‘Chi Town’ in me.

    These brothers grew-up being told constantly to show their emotions, tell people when they were sad, and it is OK for men to cry, and that there is no real difference between the sexes. They were indoctrinated to separate themselves from the ways and traditions of their grandfathers. They grew up with an idealized and romantic vision of love that was more befitting of teenage girls in previous generations than of men.

    Rofl…this is what I thought I was getting when I married dh. I tell him that all the time. I’m like, you aren’t like the on TV husband and father. I thought you would come home from work and relieve me of my duties, walking threw the door saying honey I’m home with roses in one hand and carry out in another, saying kids let’s give mom a break and go to the playground. I thought because he had two sisters and a mom who doted on him that he would be in-tuned to his feminine side (nonexistent) and would be so understanding and empathetic (he thinks I’m a sicko that needs help whenever I say that I can understand but don’t condone how moms can snap and abuse their kids).

    Stereotypes!

    1. The reality is that men and women are;
      Psychologically,
      emotionally,
      physically,
      biologically different.
      In Islam men and women are equal but not identical. Allah made so many things prohibited to men but permissible to women. Due to biological difference Allah made so many things religiously obligatory on men but only mubah(permissible), nafl (optional) to women.

      The teachings of atheistic thought is nonsense.

  11. Umar,
    you hit the nail on the head when you said people see Islam as a cure-all. a good friend of mine always says “saying the Shahadah does cure HIV”

    As for being equal, then no men and women aren’t as per the dunya, they are complimentary.
    Where the man is 80 she’s 20, and where she’s 60 he’s 40.
    Thats what makes a 100% muslim household.

    In responsiblity in front of Allah we are equal, in Ajr from Allah we are equal.
    Its proven that physiolgically men are more muscle-tissue, women more fatty-tissue.
    We can’t be so liberal that we blind fold overselves to cold solid facts.

    some other reasons why white brothers will go with those sisters:
    – for some its the chance to finally get freaky with someone all their badminton buddies said were gross and ugly, secretly lusting after women on BET while publicly declaring “Black, no way”

    – for others they don’t want a white woman, their mom already traumitized them enough to know what kind of b***h she may turn out to be. They see a woman of another race as a way to escape the prejudice they already have against white women, who they were raised to subliminally hate. Same goes for alot of white sisters. I think the same goes for AA people, but for different reasons.

    – others see it as a way to gain legitimacy:
    — for those that took immigrants “look i’m finally a real muslim with a real muslim family, now I will finally know my din and she’ll teach it to me” most of these type of brothers get whupped and end up learning nothing cuz they’re wife and thier famliy knows nothing but “folk islam”

    — for others that took AA sisters its some type of “look i can’t be racist, my wife is black” and marriage is the way that they can make of for hundreds of years of slavery

    Another reason brothers act like punks is because the dawah in those circles is mostly sufi-influenced, and so the brother is taught “Islam is (…he sits there with his eyes lightly closed, puckers his mouth, flares his nostrils and then sighs while exhausting…) Peace.” Usually his fingertips are touching in some buddha-esque way as well.

    and yeah, generalizations include everybody, some people are just attracted to different women.

    THE biggest problem with all americans getting married is Shura. the individualistic know it all new muslim is not gonna take advice from the old-heads and heve a rep when getting married someone who knows the family or can send in his wife on the DL to assess the situation, and some of them have a sick desire to see people go through what they went through THEN they say I told you so.
    Social structure has alot to do with it.

  12. Hood:

    A lot of what you said above applies to AA male converts as well. Especially the “now I have a real family” thing. Then they proceed to take on all the cultural nuances of his wife’s culture. Even getting offended at things that Americans would not get offended by, but people in his wife’s culture would.

    Unfortunately many of the AAs have the tendency to be tyrannical

  13. As-Salaamu ‘alaikum,

    As a white convert male myself, I can only speak for experience, but given that white Muslims are a small minority of the Muslim community both here and in the USA (even Turks and other ethnic white Muslims), perhaps some of us want to marry non-white sisters because we want our children to “look like Muslims” rather than being identified as part of the non-Muslim general population. Perhaps we also want to marry a sister who is well-grounded in deen who has been practising it most of her life, rather than someone who got it as recently as we ourselves did. Of course, in places where most Muslims are white, as in Bosnia and Turkey, this concern doesn’t really exist – you probably can’t find that many Asian-looking or black women there anyway.

    There is also the issue of the way a lot of white women dress and act. Remember that the same movements in the 60s and 70s which caused a lot of middle-class men to demasculinise also bred unfeminine habits in women, and perhaps some of these converts want to marry a lady who doesn’t have these habits, however soft or feminine some might consider him (and by the way, I’ve met quite a few males who think a man to be feminine if he’s not a thug like them, so it’s a taunt that I don’t take very seriously). Personally I don’t expect my wife to be a doormat who doesn’t speak up when I’m obviously in the wrong, but I do want someone who dresses and acts like a lady and who is willing to put her family first.

  14. Salam alaikoum
    Wow good post and the comments are good. I guess that is the sign of people picking up on what you have to say, like I did. I posted about it…but tangentially…at the end of the day I agree with you when you say, ” I think a situation where everyone wins is when everyone is playing their position and respectful of each other and reinforcing Islamic values within the marriage.” I guess too it is my nafs wondering if my marriage is “normal” :)

  15. This is an aside but what is wrong with men crying. One of the most beautiful things I’ve ever heard was and an Arab Iman crying during salat. Crying before Allah is very beautiful and encouraged.

    Secondly, where do you put the African American men who grew up middle class and are not tyrannical, who are sensitive but not push overs. I think its hard for them to get married sometimes because women have this brutish stereotype about African American men.

    Other than that very interesting comments.

  16. Hood, man that was great you should put that on your blog akh. You hit a lot of the main points and some that I missed for the reasons these brothers seek the African-American and immigrant sisters and the trauma these brothers may have went trough from their mothers

  17. Yusuf you also make a strong point when stating that the social movements of the 60’s and 70’s created a new white woman who is less than desirable to a lot of men.

    Um Abdullah, there is nothing wrong with crying maybe every blue moon, but to be a male version of an Oprah chick is not befitting of a man and it is traumatic to children to see their father as weak. BTW, it is nice when these brothers cry when they are reciting when they are for real, some of them are frontin though.

  18. Umar you have done it again thank you for keeping it real!!!

    As a White Muslim going through a divorce with an African American sister I can definately relate. I was also once young and naive and had no strong male figure in my life to show me “the game”. In fact my father was broken down by two failed marriages. I was staying in this type of relationship thinking I was doing something good for my family and children not wanting to repeat the mistakes of my father. When a Latino co-worker of mine saw what I was going through pulled me aside and asked me a question I had never thought of in my life. What do you think your relationship is doing to your son? What do you think this is doing to his image of a man. That was a big turning point for me and as I annalyzed the situation it became more evident. My son was having confidence issues in school other kids were picking on him. Subhanallah since I left the situation his confidence shot through the roof. It was like a 180 degree turn around. Sorry Um Abdullah the line between sensitive and push over is very fine when a man displays sensitivity he displays weakness which opens him up to all of the described problems above. And yes crying in front of Allah is commended crying in front of your wife is one of the worst mistakes you can make.

    Defeminization class…interesting concept I think Tariq Nelson told me of a Brother in Atlanta that has a Manhood Training class. I think that would be a little easier to accept….I can see this defeminization class now “Hello, my name is Fulan and I am a punk”….

    Excellent piece right on time

  19. Brother Hood, I think that you are overgeneralizing when you speak of (white) Sufis fitting this catagory of weak convert husbands. Of course, there are Sufis out there that fit your description to a T, but they would most often be of the new-age neo sufis that already had those weak inclinations before Islam.

    If you looked at the more stricted Sufis that call to complete adherence to the Shari’ah, you would find male masculinity highly stressed.

    One very well known Shaikh has a series of talks about marriage, specifically for his Murids, and if you were to hear what he has to say about the role of the man and masculinity, you will find that it is completely agreeable to what most of us here are speaking about.

  20. Assalamu Alaikum,

    Thanks for this post. The sort of man your father was/is has a great effect on a woman’s being able to put up and shut up. Many white female converts from liberal backgrounds whilst growing up would never have experienced chauvinism or sexist name calling in the home. If that woman marries a “traditional” Muslim, the first few years will be extremely difficult when she realises that just because he had a time in the “wilderness”, embracing a western lifestyle for a time does not make him a feminist (which I think most middle class white converts are looking for). Anecdotally, I know of a few white British women who have entered naively into marriages with university educated Arab Muslim men whom they’d thought were liberal only to seek divorces from them several years and many kids later. Two of these women have gone on to marry very liberal Arab and Pakistani men. Another reason converts tend not to marry one another is because, especialy in the early years of someone’s conversion it’s difficult to tell what sort of a Muslim they’ll turn out to be. The same is true of “born”muslims who’ve recently started practising. This is areal issue for women, less so for men because of the authority that an Islamic marriage gives to the man.

  21. Aicha,

    I don’t think a brother has to be a feminist or modernist to treat his wife with respect and not call her names. The authority that a man is given in an Islamic marriage is based on mutual respect and not tyranny. One does not have to become an ultra-liberal softie to be respectful. Also, I think that it is wishful thinking to say that the liberal homes many of these women in were so perfect, many of these homes also have major problems, and one of the problems is that the man is often disrespected and belittled.

  22. >>they don’t want a white woman, their mom already traumitized them enough to know what kind of b***h she may turn out to be.

    LOL! For what its worth, I get a kick walking around my campus and not moving out of the way for all the white princesses struting down the sidewalk taking it all up. Alot of other white guys bigger than me walk in the dirt before they would make princesses move out of the way or butt shoulders. Maybe they should try joining the Marine Corps to be defeminized…

  23. Yusuf,

    Any white brother who marries an Arab or other non white ethnic muslim because they want their kids to “look Muslim” ought to visit my page and take a look at our kids.

    My wife is Saudi, I am white. My wife’s grandfather was originally from Yemen and was basically black.

    Both of our boys could, and probably will, pass for 100% white. Sinan has blond hair and hazel eyes, Sayf, has dark brown hair and blue eyes(for the moment) and both are very white.

    My wife always jokes she wonders if when she is out if people think she is the nanny for the kids.

    Having a brown wife doesnt mean you will have brown children.

  24. As-Salaamu ‘alaikum,

    Abu Sinan: I’m well aware that having a brown wife isn’t a guarantee of having brown children – I actually once knew a Somali woman who had married an American brother whose daughter was basically white (although she mostly spoke her mother’s languages, Swahili and Somali). Even two white parents can have brown children (there was a famous incident of that in Apartheid-era South Africa). However, it makes it likely that the children will not be northern European type white.

  25. Umar wrote: “What I recommend for white Muslim converts is classes on the art of Manliness and defeminization classes after taking shahadah and having some wise brothers counsel them before they get married…”

    Just out of curiosity, what would you recommend be taught in a class “on the art of Manliness” and for your “defeminization” classes?

    As Abu Sinan wrote, there are some Muslim communities around the world that do require counseling prior to getting married; here in S’pore, the Registry of Muslim Marriages (a gov’t agency) won’t allow anyone to get married unless they receive a certificate of attendance from one of the masjids or converts’ association for having taken the required classes.

    I can’t say much about the AA and immigrant communities, but I did think your description of the background of white American males (paragraphs 4-7) is fairly correct for boys who come from middle class and higher income families; I don’t see it as being correct for boys who come from poorer families. The de-emphasis on sports and competition in schools, though, is quite correct. Participation, which is fine, is one thing; it’s quite another not to understand the nature of competition because educators may disagree with it. The world is a very competitive place, and kids need to learn how to deal with competitive people. Otherwise, they’ll wind up losers for life.

    And, fwiw, Milady agreed with me that I’m not the “wimpy white guy” type you’ve described in your post. ;)

  26. you know what the problem is now a days is that men aren’t men and women aren’t women!
    men wanna do womens jobs and stay home and women wanna go out there and show their behinds and mix and mingle. we have islam now it shouldn’t matter what kind of mother you had or up bringing for that matter we have examples from our beloved prophet and his wives. he tought us everything for going to the bathroom to how to sleep with your wives!
    the lust thing? you should be able to fullfill these kinds of feelings with your wife.. it shouldn’t matter where she comes from! there’s things such as culture differences but that shouldn’t get in the way about how you feel towards your wife?

    i mean really brother Allah made it halal for you’s to take on up to 4 wives… you can really have your variety… even if you don’t wanna get rid of the first one out of pity you can have your cake and eat it too!!!!!!

    Hood are you one of those brothers that are lusting afetr the BET women? you seem to be . i have been on to your blog and i am really ashamed of you you seem like a very educated brother. and all of you on this blog should be ashamed. why dont you all just talk about what you do behind closed doors with your wives? you seem to like the attention of talking about such topics. may Allah guide you all. you people have no shame.

  27. – Anonymous,
    There is a difference between reporting generally what some people do, and specifically accusing a person of doing something.
    The Messenger of Allah would say “Why is it that some people do such and such things” without naming names or pointing fingers.
    You might want to review your comments and see which one you are guilty of.

    As for what I said, than no apologies and no need for you to shame me. If you understood anything about the social constructs we were discussing you wouldn’t be so enraged or disgusted.

    As for the issue of “lust” then it’s a serious issue and wasn’t mentioned comically. when a man enters into a relationship with a woman solely because he lusts after her, that relationship is bound to fail.
    Why?
    Because when someone lusts after another they generally devalue that person. How can a person that doesn’t value his spouse (and in fact devalues her at times) start a family that is an active, productive part of the community?
    ——————————–
    Alkashif – Your comments are taken well, and thats why I said “generalizations tend to include everybody” meaning there are the exceptions.

  28. – Anonymous,
    There is a difference between reporting generally what some people do, and specifically accusing a person of doing something.
    The Messenger of Allah would say “Why is it that some people do such and such things” without naming names or pointing fingers.
    You might want to review your comments and see which one you are guilty of.

    As for what I said, than no apologies and no need for you to shame me. If you understood anything about the social constructs we were discussing you wouldn’t be so enraged or disgusted.

    As for the issue of “lust” then it’s a serious issue and wasn’t mentioned comically. when a man enters into a relationship with a woman solely because he lusts after her, that relationship is bound to fail.
    Why?
    Because when someone lusts after another they generally devalue that person. How can a person that doesn’t value his spouse (and in fact olds her in low esteem at times) start a family that is an active, productive part of the community?
    ——————————–
    Alkashif – Your comments are taken well, and thats why I said “generalizations tend to include everybody” meaning there are the exceptions.

  29. Some people have a vivid imagination…

    As a white Muslim convert, I wonder what is the predicate of your insecurity towards European culture (was it the fact that you never pulled an all-nighter in college?; was it that you never ran your own business; maybe you never had a meaningful relationship with your family of non-Muslims…).

    It’s brave to sit behind a keyboard and call the rest of us emasculated when its obvious you haven’t the foggiest clue as to what goes on in a marriage. The real warning sign is that you actually encourage caucasian Muslims to act as predators…

    What you call emasculated is a reaction similar to an animal that would throw a rock through a masjid window: you can’t be a part of what goes on inside so you’re going to make it difficult for those that are there. You can’t be a part of manhood, so you will take a shot at ours.

    Cooking, cleaning, assisting in housework, humility, showing a softer side, putting your wife’s emotions ahead of your own, taking enourmous amounts of punishment without so much as a peep are elements of what being a man is all about (and all of these things are included in hadith if you care to throttle back your mouth for a moment and open Bukari…)

    I could also state for the record that I could out fight you, out shoot you, out compete you, out skill you, out knowledge you, and out love you in the bedroom… but whats the point?

    You will have to learn through experience what real men learn know inherently.

    w’salam,

  30. Some people have a vivid imagination…

    As a white Muslim convert, I wonder what is the predicate of your insecurity towards European culture (was it the fact that you never pulled an all-nighter in college?; was it that you never ran your own business; maybe you never had a meaningful relationship with your family of non-Muslims…).

    It’s brave to sit behind a keyboard and call the rest of us emasculated when its obvious you haven’t the foggiest clue as to what goes on in a marriage. The real warning sign is that you actually implicitly encourage caucasian Muslims to act as predators… as if “street smarts” amounted to anything more than petty bravado and self-delusional importance.

    What you call emasculated is a reaction similar to an animal that would throw a rock through a masjid window: you can’t be a part of what goes on inside so you’re going to make it difficult for those that are there. You can’t be a part of masculinity, so you will take a shot at ours.

    Cooking, cleaning, assisting in housework, humility, showing a softer side, putting your wife’s emotions ahead of your own, taking enourmous amounts of punishment without so much as a peep are elements of what being a man is all about (and all of these things are included in hadith if you care to throttle back your mouth for a moment and open Bukari…)

    I could also state for the record that I could out fight you, out shoot you, out compete you, out skill you, out knowledge you, and out love you in the bedroom… but whats the point?

    You will have to learn through experience what real men learn know inherently.

    I am unconcerned at your macho “toughness”. Your values are primitive and therefore I am beyond your self-comforting male framework…
    and I am Muslim.

    Look me up in 15 years and I’ll be happy to compare your experiences on marriage.

    w’salam,

    S

  31. alhamdulillah this is GREAT forum
    I am a white muslimah convert
    I am however now engaged to an arab. I would have welcomed firstly a man from my own cultural origin but I did not meet one. Everything is from Allah swt. I accept this. I know there will be many cultural challenges for us both, but we will share Islam as our common ground and insha’a Allah it will work. But having studied the inner workings of the cultural meshing or lack there of in Islam, I do agree it is best for country of Origin to be the same, which means even a white man from UK may not suit a white sister born and raised in the USA.. and yet it is I who can be quoted as saying you cannot judge a man (or woman) by his nationality, sadly, the reality is you must.

  32. As my strong husband says to his strong wife (both of whom have weak moments, as God made us), the valorization of machismo was not one of the Prophet’s attributes. And weakness and submission was not one of Ummul Mumineen Ayesha (RA)’s, Safiyya (RA)’s or Khadijah’s characteristics.

    I guess the Prophet crying and weeping openly, doing his own chores, not asking anyone to do anything for him, never reprimanding anyone, never being harsh with anyone, always gentle, always the height of compassion would be “weak” too. And these are qualities reflective of the One we worship – Whose most important attributes are Compassion and Mercy. (We do not start each task with In the Name of Allah, the Harsh, the Strong, the Dominating.)

    Neglecting your own feminine/masculine side is symptomatic of particular cultures. There’s nothing “Islamic” about it.

    Domination of the poor by the rich, of women by men is an unfortunate fact of human history: it’s not a “good” or “natural” thing. By that argument, it’s “natural” for the rich to exploit the poor, for Whites to marginalize people of colour.

    I love my religion because it is egalitarian and no one is “more equal” than the other. No race, no culture, no gender. And that is the sunnah, that is the Quran. Anything else is baatil and false. At the very best it is mere opinion, mere culture, mere personal preference.

    Thank God not ALL men overdo machismo and seek to “de-feminize” as if feminine qualities were something God hated. Otherwise I and hundreds of women I know would have given up on men long ago. Thank God for men who are not afraid to follow the sunnah of kindness and gentleness in ALL things. I am sick of men who can’t relax, stop fighting and love. They have destroyed the world and they are continuing to do so.

    As the Prophet said: God is GENTLE and loves GENTLENESS in ALL things.

    Wassalam.

  33. Shabana,

    First, and I do not say this in a harsh way, Allah and God are not the same thing and that is an important linguistic point. Second, there are many hadith in which the Prophet discourages men from behaving as women and gender roles are defined in Islam and they are different, Third, what you describe as Islam sounds more like Marx to me and someone who has been influenced by the Western secular-left and I could be wrong

  34. Assalamu alaykum,

    As a visitor to the board, I find it astonishing that so many Muslims have all this time on their hands, talking and talking and talking about issues that are really neither here nor there.

    We’re Muslims, not sociologists. All is found in the Book and the Sunnah with the understanding of the salaf.

    Study Arabic, memorize kitab at tawheed, memorize minhaaj as-saalikeen, memorize the Qur’an!

    May Allah help us all upon that.

    I enclose only one Arabic link.

    http://www.ilmsahih.com

    Waffaqakum Allah li maa yuhibbu wa yardhaa, He is Al Qadeer, Al Raheem.

    Wassalamu alaykum wa rahmatullahi wa barakaatuh

  35. Kindness and generosity are non gender specific shabana. Being macho is not the same as being harsh, reality is women are attracted to men with male qualities, i dont know any woman that wants a “softie”. Softiness is a female quality, only feminists would see it as a weakness.

  36. mmm interesting read, the real question where do we draw the line between “misogynists” and “masculine”. Men are the protectors and maintainers now listen to these words carefully, protect not opress or dominate. I really have to disagree with Umar i mean not every woman would seek to dominate the type of brother you mentioned, why does marriage have to be about one party tyring to dominate the other. Why cant it be about two pple who love one another and seek to make each other happy and put the feelings of their spouse before their own. Masculinity is a nice thing in the context of protection/maintenance but there is a fine line, a husband has a responsibility towards his wife and family this favour is not given to him as tool to oppress or to be taken for granted. So personally speaking as a single eduacted sister from an immigrant family- from a family where both my parents were equal and my father was masculine but soft aswell i think that is the right combination. We dont need cavemen muslims with no feelings/emotion BUT also we dont need cavewoman muslims who are manipulative etc….what kind of relationship is that anyway…some of you brothers talk about learning “the game” and marriage being about every person out for their rights and the woman having to sacrifice her life…..we’ll that aint no life thats for sure……….i’d take a nature loving, soft, caring spouse any day of the week…compared to a brute! I might just put up with something in between!

  37. Frankly I think this is a load of drivel, with all due respect.

    People are people, they are complex, they are more than one-dimensional stereotypes.

    If anyone, male or female, gets married with the idea that one or the other needs to “wear the pants” or whatever, then God help the both of them and any children that they bring into the world. The most manly man that ever was or ever will be, Allah bless him and give him peace, was as masculine as anyone could ever hope to be, but he still served his family, was tender, and didn’t feel the need to constantly assert that he was “in charge”. He is the perfect example of a man who was secure enough in his station in life not to have to be “hard” just to prove that he wasn’t a punk.

    I’m sorry, but those types of models of ‘manhood’ are from jahiliyyah, plain and simple.

    In real life, there is too much work to be done in any marriage to get caught up in some fruitless power struggle in the home.

    No one is strong all of the time. My husband and I are generally both strong willed, independent minded people. But we still need each other. Sometimes I have to lean on him, sometimes it’s vice versa. If he tells me he is feeling weak and vulnerable it doesn’t make me think any less of his manhood, it makes me that much more impressed with it that his ego is not so fragile that he has to put on this brave front all the time so that I won’t think he has no backbone. He proves it to me everyday, so there is no need for this egotistical posturing.

    Again, to look to the example of the Best of Creation, Allah bless him and give him peace, he was sometimes scared, afraid, discouraged, and what else, and he sought comfort from the women in his life, his wives and even his daughter. He cried and showed emotion when he lost loved ones. He was tender with his wives and played with children. He was not some cold, distant, authoritarian , macho-acting “head of the household” type man. And there is no one, nor will their ever be, anyone who was more of a man than he.

  38. Muslims should take their time in getting married. Marriage is a BIG commitment. Would you invest all your money in a buisness venture not knowing every single detail about it beforehand? Then what about marriage of which (if Allaah blesses you with children) will bear that which is worth many than any financial investment?

    Dont be foolish and run headfirst into anything!! Seek counsel and advice from the elders in the community who have experience.

    Brother Umar one thing you didn’t mention is the education factor. Wallaahi, education plays such an important role in marriages as well. I guarantee most marriages where a woman who has an education (i.e. in an accredited school) marries a man who does not (i.e. immigrant Muslim from coutnryside) will end up in divorce or at the least a miserable marriage.

    So it is likely that couples of different races can prosper providing they are compatible – i.e. they are from the same environmen/area and thus have similar backgrounds, they both come from traditional familes, they both have education, they both have same values – this is the recipe for a successful marriage except in rare cases. But as for opposites – they may attract at first but not work out later.

  39. I think your about half right. I myself am a white american convert, and was brought over to islam through meeting a bangladeshi girl whom i am now engaged to with her parents approval. She doesnt need the visa, she would be “marrying down” financially (for now as were graduate students). I turned to islam because I grew up praying to G-d, and rejected jesus, but would still be going to church just to pray to G-d. Meeting her was a how Allah saw me comming to islam. She was a bit western, and I am a bit Boston, white, middle class, liberal. Since I converted she has now taken her deen more serrious and we only want to make all things right in the sight of Allah.

    But.. I am marring her for two reasons. As “soft” as you would label me, I was a 3 time year round varsity Footbal, wreastling, and rugby letterman, am 6’1″, like to shoot my guns, go camping, do a little policy research and writing, and pray to Allah.

    I aint no punk pansy. But there out there. White men need to wake up. I’m not saying I dont know my feelings, but i also know i feel like a man and want to be treated like one. She wants equality and respect, which i give her, but she also wants to be a women, and i encourage this to.

    If I was married I would be the head of the houshold, but she would be the neck, and the head doesnt turn without the neck. One reason I wouldnt want to marry a white women is the fact that they have become men in attitude, and do not place their nature within the roles they aspire to. I want to give my children the best chance to grow up in an environment where their role models are the right ones

  40. Salam alaikum ,

    Nicely said, ‘umar. What you describe in regard to white brothers (I’m not white) & AA or immigrant sisters seems to reflect realities ‘here’ (England), but the difference is this: here the Asian sisters, perhaps after divorce (divorce still a ‘stigma’ among them ) seeks a new partner. Blacks are seldom considered; but whites ‘actively’ sought out in the masjids. Comments here have described the ‘white males’ motives but what motives Asians, at least too many West Indians, is a ‘coloinal’ thing (status, light colour, and perception maybe that they are getting an ‘ideal’ and ‘soft’ Muslim). Sufi masjids appear to have more of this thing going on; while perhaps, in regard to ‘salafiyy’ type masjids, with North Africans, many of whom can be ‘light’ – Berber genes no doubt- immigrant sisters may be ‘offered’ for the ‘rough’ & ‘ready’ (but for them, ‘practical’)
    economics you stated. There is a new,age, almost Anglo-private school mentality among the ‘white sufis’, with an almost patronising relationship with often ‘Asian clientale. You can’t always blame them for this; their upbringing did not lend itself to race mixing. What they take as the true ‘Islam’ of first generation Muslims is best described as ‘submissive’ attitudes bred in the colonial period. Hence, the inability of many of these ‘white’ Muslim brothers (not ‘white’ sisters’) to deal with ‘Arabs’ unless they are espousing a inclusive & non-challenging Islamic identity, usually of the ‘sufi’ variety. Upshot of this, it seems Muslims of a Carribbean background find it harder to find ‘sisters’ (for whatever reason, ‘Arab’ sisters are reluctant) while Asian sisters a ‘no-go’, and are left with Somalian sisters (whose own choice may have been first for a ‘white brother’). As a generalisation, it has got to do with the similar factors operating in the US. We also have less Caribbean sisters practicing the deen. I notice, Umar, your allusions to a middle class ‘white Islam’ being somehow captured within a sufi experience. Is it fair to say, as it is here, that the salafiyy da’wa appeals more to the urban working class, who, on the whole, are often marginal, of ethic backgrounds? My impressions is that the ‘sufi’ thing attracts middle class reverts;while the salafiyy teachings, with its more ‘activist’ teachings of our deen, appeal to a more tougher, more experienced section of the community. In the first, the colonial stero-types seem to be played-out in religious context;in the second, for other well-known reasons, ‘Western identity’ is less attractive. Second generation ‘Arabs’ of the educated variety seem to be following the ‘Asians’ in this preference, but her motivations may stem from a valorisation of Western popular culture or an attraction to ‘Eurpean’ cultural icons she has been taught to ‘worship’ while in university. She can’t bring a black muslim home; but there is a possibility she can bring ‘Abu Abbot’, from Bukinghamshire, to meet her parents while stressing his ‘career potential’ and ‘earning power’. You and I umar have got to link up on the information load; before the liberal elites ‘distort’ our message while getting paid; or ‘write a phd’ on what we have said. Wal Allah ya3lamu al haqq
    I

  41. “…..she has very strong Western values and believes in the ‘50-50 marriage’ where the woman has power over the man.”

    Evidently, the person who wrote this has not graduated from remedial math. If he did, he’d realize that it stands for equality, not domination. Do you know what scares the western world so about Islam? It’s that whole assumption that you are somehow better. That men have to control their wives. That wives are property and that they do not have the same opportunities or say within the marriage. There is nothing weak about a man who will listen to his wife and respect her thoughts. There is something very weak about a man so insecure that he feels the only way to feel like a man is to dominate a woman. It is but for the grace of god that you were not born a woman. So ask yourself: If I were a woman, would I be happy being treated like my thoughts and opinions don’t matter? That my only supposed valuable role in this lifetime is to be a mother to my kids (and my husband, apparently)? I think you need to stop this riduculous posturing and chest-pounding. Sexism has very little to do with religion. If you are so peace-loving and fair-minded, as your religion is supposed to teach you, then how come you display such utter loathing for women, unless they do as you tell them? How come you loathe yourself so much, that the only way for you to feel good is to dominate someone else. That reeks of insecurity. You would not want to be controlled. You’d be miserable. Why do you feel it is okay for you to control someone else? Western women do not want to control men. Far from it. What we do want is respect, just like you. Go figure…..

  42. Asalamu Alikum,
    Well I do not know how I ended up here in this page ,but I am glad I did.
    I am Egyptian ,an Arab I am born muslim.I have read all the comments here and I just want to say something.I was engaged twice once to an Egyptian guy and the other was to half american half Egyptian ,but he was just white he was raised up by his converted mum as his dad died when he was 7 in the USA.
    I have the experience of the “MAN” the Egyptian!! and the soft person the consideret the American.
    well inspite that things did not go through with both ,but I respect more the white man becouse of his softness ,this is not considered default for a middle eastern woman it is considered quality,something rare and unique. To be a man and gain your wife’s respect has nothing to do with race or color ,it is all about respect just by respecting your wife’s oppinion ,feelings is not a weak point ,it is braveness .
    I moved from my country to north America looking for this ,kindness,softness and respect.White man has these qualities by nature by the way he grew up in a country that defends women’s rights ,so he is used to respect any women ,but when it comes to his wife love is added to respect which I believe any women on earth would want this and would appreciate it. The propheit was kind to his wives.I belive that’s the way it should be and any true muslim woman would treat such a husband as a king of her world and not take advantage of it.Some bad cases does not make it a rule.

  43. I have to say something,well this is how I think at least ,as I am middle eastern I have lived there all my life nearly ,I came to a conclousion middle eastern women are used to tough men their word is on the top ,women (not all of them but some )have no opinion a man is so strong and they hide their feelings ,cause if they showed it this is considered weakness.The women got used to this ,like this is the idea of a man to them if he is so sweet which is great but to them they think he is weak!!! it is not acceptable she starts loosing respect which is a turn off to her,or she starts taking advantage of this kindness or weakness as they think and start taking the man’s role.

  44. My take on your comments regarding while middle and upper class males as punks: I have learned in my years that a lot of the explicit stereotypical male behavior is simply an act to make a male feel like a man without fulfilling the responsibility end of manliness. A man is not necessarily the male who walks into a room shouting ‘I’m THE MAN!’, however, the real man is the one who knows he is a man and thus makes that clear should a situation arise. I think your animosity, Umar, towards middle class and up whites comes more from idealized misrepresentations of them on television sitcoms as opposed to having had substantial interactions with them. I have a lot to say on this subject but am unable to organize my thoughts now…

  45. i agree with you when you say that each person should know their role within Islam when in an islamic marriage (or the general gist is that), but I disagree that marriages of a born muslim to a revert are doomed to failure, particulary when race is a variable.. (again, the gist of it)..
    I was brought up in a racially intolerant society, and very much a part of a sub-culture given my immigrant status. In this sub-culture, a man is a man is a man – but can also be brutally “a man”.. A woman is not a partner but almost a servant, and little more. My father was a stern man and on the basis of the different types of abuse I suffered at his hand, I swore I would never marry, unless of course I was able to wear the pants, at least most of the time. I certainly would never be dependant on any man, nor let one tell me what to do..
    So thus far I guess your point is proved. According to your logic, I should then go on (based on my upbringing) to marry a white revert when I reverted to Islam, so that I could have a balanced home.
    However, where your argument fails (of perhaps falls short of clear) is that it does not take into account with enough respect, the exceptions to your rule, or a particular element of the full will of Allah, which does not fit into our own perceived “laws” in many cases.
    You see, finding Islam, I and having been married to the vanilla version of Mr Surethinghun meets Mrfemininity, I yearned for someone who would truly lead, who would, in fact be a M A N. And to me, that means a protector, a defender, a leader, a man where I have a say, yes, but the final decision is his and although he lovingly listens, he does have the knack of knowing best. I didn’t WANT to take the reigns and be the man and the woman.. I wanted someone who would actually knock the block off someone who accosted me, someone who would treat me with all the respect a flower is owed, but recognise my thorns and file them a little, whilst allowing me the ability to share my feminine insights on life. So Islam changed me, I guess. Becoming a muslimah truly meant a rebirth to me, and I wanted a man who would be a leader and a head of the household and truly my “priest” as well as protector. I didn’t want another father, or the unconditional “SHUT UP AND LISTEN” attitude that is far too macho to be islamic, but yes, I wanted a real man.
    Here is where I again, agree- I found that “real man” in an indian man, a born muslim, a man who had fought tooth and nail to get anywhere and learnt to take no crap and no prisioners. Yet, somehow, by the mercy of Allah, he knows my softer side and is able to tell me when it is going to lead me into trouble, and is able to tell me when we should listen to it, rather than to power-drive “strength”, if you get my meaning.
    So a real man, to me, is someone who is not afraid, if need be, to roll up his sleeves, climb the cactus and slay the dragon, Quran on his lips and Allah in his heart, but one who similarly can perceive my feminine softness and knows when its okay to let that softness make the decision. It isn’t often, because often we can reach them together, and where we disagree, I trust my Allah has brought my man to me and therefore will give him the right knowledge and so I submit to my Allah and to my beloved husband. its worked so far, and sooner or later, I’ve seen the fruit and wisdom of the different islamic roles for husband and wife.
    There’s a saying that most men think they’re gods, but their woman are atheists. That’s the problem with western society; (and this coming from a westerner) more woman should indeed believe in their husbands and that God has given them a specific role- similarly more men should understand that they are not gods, and should turn to the one that is, rather than allowing that realisation to turn them into the muslim equivalent of a bully, at best.
    I do believe if we trust that Allah knows best, we will as woman stand by our husbands, and we will, as men, trully listen (not just hear) to the opinions of our wives, and then, our men will turn to Allah on major decisions, and our women will make duah for them, believing whatever they decide is best. And if it’s not – well, then, that’s where love enters in, and we move forward from wherever we are, together, to try another day, to learn from our mistakes rather than letting some pride based merely on the mask of “ROLE” take away our ability to admit error.

    To conclude.. Allah has given us the guidance. What we need is an ability to stay on our knees until we understand it, and each other, regardless of WHEN we came to Islam, and regardless of what the world has told us we are. So classes for men about their role in Islam? Yes, I agree. But DEfeminising? well… that’s pushing it a little.. after all, when a man knows what he is IN ALLAH, surely he will trust IN ALLAH to make him exactly what he should be. And for that, we should all be making duah. Kindly make duah for beloved and I, that Allah always permit understanding, and always keeps us in HIS way; Islam. Insh’Allah.

  46. First of all i would like to thank you for having this site mashallah I am not marriageable at the time i think but this is something really interesting to me i grew up in a family where my mother was head of the house hold i see what you mean. Ive never heard of that sufi group you are talking about. I belive in the five pillars just as you guys do although i differ in a few areas but im very very glad you made this site its important for us white muslim brother not to feel ashamed of our deen or our race. may allah reward you

  47. another thing i was wondering you guys keep saying its white brothers who dont want to marry white sisters but i always thought the opposite like im attracted to arab and AA sisters but culturally id rather marry a white sister inshallah

  48. one more thing the first post i gave you i was too vauge i am a submitter. i know a lot of sunnis hate our guts but im in the same boat as a white muslim as you are. Ive also met white shia converts too i know this is the wrong thread to say this in but i just want to know what you think
    is this for white sunnis only or is this for all muslims?

  49. Well, what you say is really true but it is not because of the “soft” white man, it is because of the cultural difference. I know both sides, because my father is arab and my mom is converted german. She was working and brought the money home and he slept all day and then spent it. After work he was beating up my mom. He never left a finger and made sth useful. Most muslims here in Germany are black,arab or turkish and they really destroy the image of islam. They are all on welfare, selling drugs and can hardly read or write. And they dont fulfill any of their muslim duties. They even dont accept me as a muslim, because i have a very caucasian looking. They just see white people, muslim or not, as evil or a chance to have a lazy life on their back. I have been often to Algeria. Nobody was prayeing there, people taking drugs, laughing about me because i went to the mosque on fridays. Nobody was working there and the people that had a job only worked 2 hours a day.And they hated us. They really hate white people, but on the other hand they all want to come to europe. If you are white and muslim, every stupid loser wants you to marry his lazy, hysterical and dumb brown/black sister so she can have a good life on your back. I am proud that allah made me white, so i am tall,strong,handsome,intelligent and productive for my community, a white muslim! I am no dumb hater, i study medicineand, speak 4 languages, grew up in a neighbourhood with many immigrants, i was born muslim, and i have been always told that we are all equal and it is one ummah. But ive seen reality. So all my white muslim brothers/sisters, dont marry a black/arab/turkish/persianor afghan woman/man, it will destroy your life. They hate you and you are just victims for their evil plans. Be proud, you are white and muslim, the greatest of allahs creation. To my white sisters: Go and marry a white muslim. To my white brothers: Go and marry an white muslim girl, if you dont find one, russia and bosnia are full of beautiful white muslim girls who are very poor and would love to come to the US/Europe to marry you.Be smart and marry someone who feels and behaves like you, and everyone is happy.
    Salamualeikum and greetings from Germany

    1. @ kareem. such hate? where is it coming from? just cause u had a bad experience with some black people does not mean they are all alike. i am black and i dont hate whites at all. im really doubting your iman, to quote you, that whites are the greatest of Allah’s creation, youre a joke. here’s a tip: WE ARE ALL EQUAL BEFORE ALLAH AND IT IS UR INDIVIDUAL IMAN AND FEAR OF ALLAH THAT WILL MAKE YOU BETTER THAT ANOTHER. you have brains, so do they blacks, u have blood runnig in ur viens so do they. TRULLY, TRULLY, u are not special or any better just because of the colour of ur skin. its just lack of melanin. lol! trully there’s nothing special about being white.. or black or whatever. its the quality of your character and your deen that matters.

  50. Wow I’ve never come across a thread like this before. Isnt this a cultural issue rather than an Islamic one?

    As painful as it is there is although a lot of good there is a lot of bad (mostly due to ignorance) in the Muslim world today. Most Muslims would admit that America is a better place to live.

    Most traditionalist immigrants come from pretty much backwater villages in the middle of nowhere, in which they where never ever the glowing beacons of Islam nor had any access to anything intellectual about their religion, hell most were uneducated.

    As a white Muslim you should be able to understand this and have the best of both worlds, Islam and the actual benefits of being western and NOT take on the frankly stupid cultural baggage of say some village in Pakistan. When you convert to Islam you are bettering yourself not going backwards.

    Islam is the greatest thing ever given to mankind but sadly not all Muslims are.

    I think this guy is blowing things out of proportion and this scenario is not actually all that common (maybe black women are just more aggressive-l i’ve seen enough beat-downs when i was at school) , but becoming Muslim does not mean you should leave your brain at the door.

    DO WHAT MAKES YOU HAPPY NOT MISERABLE! THAT MEANS SOMEONE WHO SHARES THE SAME VALUES AS YOU!!!

  51. Assalamu’alaikum warahmatullah

    I’m delighted with your character Mr.White Muslims,about happiness-to have a lesser laugh rather than lesser cries,to be a martial artist,to be shaabiruun who likes to sacrifice everything good to Allah Ta’ala in harmony. Well…,I feel that you’re the type of those among people who are analytical,gifted and talented,not selfish and loyal. You practice high standards and doesn’t blow your own trumpet. Your weak points: temperamental,over perfectionist,and you totally underestimate yourself.

    You know… I feel that a guy there was right. Allah Jalla has the remedy for materialistic women and the ever increasing number of women in America like the reality as is: “if all women in America had married,there would still be more than 9 Millions still couldn’t have husband,am I right ?. Many Musyriks need all these Poliginy things as such also the Poliginy standard.” I’m happy that Islam Poliginy as rahmatil ‘alamiin as such is one of the suppleness in which responsibilities as a man,finds it’s course. To me… is hadits Rasulullah Shalallahu Alaihi wa Sallam about a man who has two wifes and he’s fair to them,he’ll obtain heaven that he could enter all the eight doors of it. While for he who is having a tendency to incline only to one of them,then he will find he’s body halfly bend in al Qiyamah.

    Not to mentioned the place that got many action in there to become that of Luth’s people transgression. How to cure AIDS ? “Poliginy and circumcision of every women.” And to kill every people who do sodomite,whether that would be the victim of sodomite and the sodomite rapist or the ones doing it at will.

  52. I might be very late with posting this but i was browsing, came across this site with heated discussion about reverts and just couldnt help myself from saying something. I am a muslimah, born muslim. I really dont like phrasing muslims according to whether they were born into Islam or whether they were reverts. To me we are all msulims and we all are the same whether we were born in to Islam or whether just came across it a year ago…..Allah SWT looks into our Iman and not how long we’ve been muslims.

    That said, let me talk about culture and race and how it comes to play with Islam, in my opinion. I come from a culture that is so strict and so into tribalism that getting married to a person from the same culture but diffferent tribe is such bad thing let alone getting married to a white muslim or African American. But Islam does not teach racism nor does it encourages it. Good example, look into Bilal AS who used to be a slave before he was muslim and ended up marrying one of the Quraishi (highly valued tribe in pre-historic saudi before Islam). I always thank Allah SWT that even though i come from a very strict culture my immidiate family has always been observant of the right teachings of Islam. My parents were very happy when my sister got married to a white muslim brother due to his taqwa and iman, and his steadfastness in observing the right way of Islam. My dad used to tell me, “marry a man with good Islamic background not cultural back ground. One who observes the teachings of Qura’an and Sunnah, for such a man will never let you down if he believes in Allah SWT”.

    When it comes to who marries who; i believe it is all personal prefernces. I have seen how one of my sisters, the one married to the white muslim brother lives; she is happy. The guy would move heaven on earth to make her happy and yet his taqwa never wavers. The same with my other 3 sisters all married to their husbands (the other 3 are not white). It is only natural that a white guy may get attracted to a white, african, arab, latina or indian woman and vice versa for a woman. So what? what is the big deal if you like it dark, light or any kind of shade as long whoever you like is a person who observes Islam as a way of life? I like white guys, shoot! its my preference, is that so wrong? Why even create a thread discussing about race when we could do better and discuss about our deen in depth?

    But then again, everyone has an opion and above was mine. No offense intended to anyone.

    Waasalaam!
    Your sister in Islam.

    1. @ sister. u couldnt have said more, U aired out my sentiments. Muslims! SEPERATE ISLAM FROM ARABS! AND ANY OTHER FORM OF CULTURAL INFLUENCES. just cause youre arab does not mean ur a better muslim. and just cause ure arab or whatever race/culture and ure a bad muslim does not represent islam. go and read Naima_t’s write up, its all about ur deen,taqwa iman….

  53. This is the biggest load of bs I have read from your blog.Like seriously ? U guys are seriously discussing this.And Umar Lee I am soo emberassed for you for posting this.Somewehere between writing bs and criticizing women of colour u 4got the fundamentals of our deen….unity,taqwa,faith,equality.Please refer back to the Quraan and Sunnah.

    U might think its freedom of speech but the things u write shape and affectr people and families.I am a black muslim female and everyday I have to fight a battle,a battle to wear hijab,a battle to stand up against chauvinistic muslim man who believe women r second class citizens,people who trash and belittle black women,u probably don’t know what its like because you are all up there on the totem pole simply because of the colour of your skin,I dare you to live 1 day in the life of a black muslim woman and u will deleted all the bs u write.There are women of color out there who respect their husbands,who work together to create homes instead of the platinum digging women u seem to paint with ur article.U know for so long I had taken on the attacks,humiliation and third class citizen treatment by my fairer muslim brethren but eventually figured its not worth living with such bitterness…ppl like u r the reason why muslim women marry out….ur suppose to be writing on how to unite ppl and reconcile differences but ur doing just the opposite.

    I pray God guides you from your tunnel of ignorance for you know not how the things you write affect other people and muslim families.If a white guy wants to marry a woman of colour..who r u to say otherwise..Ameen

  54. So are you saying white males are suckers…??? I think sometimes before you write posts u should consider the impact of what you write on the people who read it and the feelings that may be hurt by baseless opinions….i read it with a closed mind…i think u wrote ur post with a closed mind…am i close minded because i refuse to accept your opinions…Your post is loaded with streotypes,not all black muslims or immigrant muslims are looking for an escape from poverty..they are educated,independent,financially secure black muslims which is the majority of black muslimsi know ..when you write posts like that u are just reinforcing racial streotypes and making it much harder for the people at the bottom of the social hierarchy (us black females),i guess u wont understand coz ur not a black muslim female.worst is that u are breaking down our already weak ummah.

  55. Sister I wish what you said was true that the majority of black Muslims were secure, educated and prosperous. No doubt there are many black Muslim professionals and people of wealth and the number is growing; but the majority of the community is in a state of poor organization.

    How many schools are there in the black Muslim community outside of Sister Clara Mohamed Schools? With the enormous black Muslim populations in the NYC Tri-State area there is one school, a handful of masjids on life-support, and no health or meaningful social service agencies. In most cities, there is even less. Philly, which has the biggest black Muslim population, has a lot of black Muslim professionals, but their number pales in comparison to those who are in a bad way and if you don’t believe me go read any number of blogs dedicated to that area.

    I lived in DC and it is no different. here in St. Louis, where I am now, I attend a majority black masjid ( which I helped found) and I would say at least 50% of the brothers are on drugs and maybe 2 have a college degree. I wish that were not true, and I wish that did not reinforce a stereotype, but those are the facts.

    Not all white men are suckers; but many are given that they are a product of liberal families dominated by women and they have become emasculated and are ” in touch with their feminine side”. As white America has moved away from religion and tradition many have lost the traditional ways of a man being the head of his household.

    When you say embracing stereotypes that does not bother me. Stereotypes is a non-Muslim concept. Political correctness is the enemy of the truth and you can either embrace the truth or embrace whatever makes you feel better; but remember just because you say something does not make it true and the truth does not vanish because you refuse to accept it or it makes you feel bad.

  56. So Umar Lee,what exactly where you looking to achieve with your post ?

    My problem is not wrt to acknowledging if an issue persits or not ..I am certain you could find such relationships whichever way u look at it…i could say most south asian muslims harbour racist views towards their african muslim brothers and sisters ….

    …. the issue i have with your post is your opinions….u dont see it coz ur stuck up there in ur mighty white boy glory…and u say telling the truth is more important..i agree with u…but that must be done with a sense of caution…u just leave ur argument there…u fail to come up with a holistic approach to addressing the problem..ur only solution cant be white muslim men should just marry white muslim women…my even greater concern with ur post is how u have managed to find a problem with all the scenarios that can exist when women of colour get married to white muslim men..if she’s not a gold digger then she must have a white boy fetish….or perhaps she’s lookin to get green card and get her family to the usa…or this one i quote ‘Then you have the most GROTESQUE example and that is of the African-American sister. This sister may have already been married (possibly multiple times) or even if she has never been married she is being hipped by those around her and she is seeking to avoid one of the many broke black brothers at the Masjid and she isn’t interested in marrying someone for papers and she has gotten word that these white brothers are an easy meal ticket. They will work, give you their money, not talk back and do what the hell you tell them to do. Because this brother is naïve; you can manipulate the hadith and the Sunnah of marriage to your advantage and sucker this brother into a miserable situation while you are spending his cash and there you have it.’…

    u say white men live in a world dominated by women..then surely they are just as susceptible to being manipualated and emasculated as husbands and fathers in their families in marriage to a white female…after all you do mention that these same white males grow up in families ….’where given that they are a product of …… dominated by women’ how different is this dominated white woman making the white male seem weak as to the case of the strong black female dominating her white husband…I know a lot of white families where the women call the shots,prosperous middle class families…how is it different then to the dominating black woman..U shd be advising women to treat their husbands justly and not emasculate them..the recommendations u offer in ur post dont seem to offer a good altrnative because the white male will still be in a woman dominant marriage

    I pray Allah guides you to the right path coz u know not what you say….

  57. The fact is that most black women expect their husbands to act like men and not their little sisters and when a man does not act like a man they will run him, Muslim or non-Muslim.

    When you speak of “prosperous Middle class families” led by women they may prosper by they are at odds with the Sunnah and what was brought by all of the prophets so let them have their dunya.

    Another issues, that you may not have realized, is there are very few all-white Muslim couples. Most white Muslim women would never even consider married a white Muslim man and vice versa.

    Muslims cannot marry whatever color they want, but they need to keep these things in mind, and sisters need to study the sunnah. As for me I am in an interracial marriage; but I am a general sister and was raised by real men and maybe that is what you need in your life ( FYI, I am not looking but I am sure if you go to Masjid ar-Rahma in Newark, NJ and find plenty brothers).

  58. Why Do I feel that this is turning into a personal attack on me.Now I happen to lack a strong male figure in my life,and this conclusion u reached how ? Focus on the argument Umar,don’t use personal attacks to argue your case through coz that doesn’t come out too well.FYI I happen to have grown up with very strong male figures,being the only female child in my family and I have nothing but admiration ,respect and appreciation for the male figures in my life.

    So u state you are married to a woman of colour (gasp),does she happen to fall into the catrgories of women you so colorfully elaborated in your post,gold digging and broke,immigrant looking to get out of poverty,ah maybe someone looking for a greencard,perhaps a white boy-fetish ….probably not,then why do you paint this portrait of women of colour,I am sure you would not want someone to call your wife any of those categories,perhaps you have a daughter,how would it feel if she was branded any of the things you mention in your post…you post generalizes women of colour and tries to put all women of colour into the mediocre categories u write about..perhaps that was not your intention when writing that post….maybe time to consider re-editing that post because it doesn’t resonate well.

    Your post is based on weak arguments and opinions.You state that white males are feminised because of strong females in the white household then you state that these same feminised males fall into the risk of being taken advantage over by strong black women,doesn’t sound like a convinving argument to me.The way you paint the picture of the black female is rather sad,A man does not earn the respect of being a man and leader through power or macho behavior,its his honour,integrity,faith,love and respect that ultimately determine his leadership in the home.You think a ‘manly’ man is respected as a leader in a family…feared maybe..but not respected as the leader of that family….

    All women should be taught about the sunnah of marriage and treatment of wife and husband to each other…not just black females…from reading your comments..one can easily conclude that white females are well versed on the sunnah to treat a white muslim male as leader of the family…

    Naima
    Cape Town,South Africa

  59. Naima,

    You are in Africa so you don’t know what is going on here. There are basics o my argument that you just don’t get because you keep on making the same mistakes in your argument and say things I never said while ignoring reality because reality makes you feel bad.

    I am telling you what I have seen, what know. Go and try and give Jacob Zuma dawah, maybe you can be his fourth wife inshaAllah

  60. How did I miss this post?
    I was married to a white brother. He was a gang banging, straight up from the hood chi town banger. His first wife always looked scared of him(She was white). I wasnt scared of him really but then again he did kick me out of his car in the middle of Wisconscin once,
    Is that manly enough for ya Oh Umar! lol

  61. I am an American in Africa,i can still relate to the issues you go about in your post since I have lived in the USA for many years as a black female muslim.The fact that I am currently in South Africa makes me no less of a black muslim than one in the USA right now

    Umar Lee,your argumenting style is flawed,you keep attacking me personally because you dont have anything to substantiate your trashy post.Focus on the topic rather than deviating to trashing me with stupid remarks about male figures in my life or Zuma,that just goes to show immaturity on your part,name calling doesnt work well for a manly man like urself Umar.

    Name calling and patronizing me does not make your opinions in the post you wrote acceptable,it seems befitting to say you have failed to defend your writing using reasoning and logic and hence you opt to attack me on a personal basis.This is debate is not based on personal issues,the focus is your post…not Jacob Zuma…not male figures in my life…focus on that….

  62. Let’s keep it trill…

    We all came into Islaam with some type of baggage which we have to work through in order to grow closer to Allaah and implement more of the Qur’aan and Sunnah in our day to day lives. The “white” brothers didn’t choose to be born into the families and environments that they were born into. Nor did the African American sisters they are marrying. Nor did you nor did I. We have all been deeply impacted and miseducated by our parents, families, communities, the television, movies, the greater society and culture, etc. We’ve all been miseducated away from our true purpose. So some of us have to unlearn the garbage we took in from “older brothers” in our communities, who taught us how to play and run game on women. While these “white” brothers have to unlearn their particular miseducation. This is American Umar, we are ALL twisted and miseducated away from our fitrah and what is natural…I mean people come into Islaam from being murderers, rapists, homosexuals, nymphos, strippers, etc. and that’s what Islaam is about isn’t it? Reclaiming lost humanity? Purifying the intellect and heart from mental and spiritual diseases so that we can be conscious servants of God?
    Like I said before Umar, you go hard on’em…whether they are weak or not, feminine acting or not, “punks” in their family or not, they are, insha’Allaah, Muslims…our brothers…and no matter what a brother’s state is, whether his particular sickness or disease, is one which is within our frame of reference or not, we are obligated to help one another and benefit one another – for at its essence the Deen is sincere advice – Naseehah.
    So you raised the issue – and people are weighing in – good. But let’s not forget the rights and responsibilities of brotherhood. No matter what our sickness is…we need each other…and no one is getting there alone. We rise and fall as a community…

    Al Kubi from http://www.trillstory.com – let’s keep it trill…

  63. quote:“cant spell! definite an immigrant”;

    Wait! i was born in Yemen and brought up here in US! i guess that would make me a definite immigrant?
    oh well; u can say i am a walking contradiction…….lol

    my point is that even though i am colored (meaning i am definitely not white; more like chocolatish/caramelish) and an immigrant; i am married to a White American Muslim Husband whose masculinity is and will always be intact…..I love him for being a man and i dont think any woman out there prefers a man who is emasculated (femalish). (just the though of a weak femalish-man makes me go yuck!)

    I was wondering…..why is it that the finger is pointed at the wife if the man of the house isnt man enough to wear the pants?

    who is stopping him from being the man?

    and if the colored/immigrant woman is the problem then y marry her in the 1st place?

    if ur already married and feel like ur emasculated then whose stopping u from leaving that lifestyle? (divorce is halal even though its not encouraged)

    If a husband does not work and prefers to stay at home who is going to be the bread winner?we need to eat at somepoint i would imagine.

    Again y point the finger at the woman? did she hold the husband at gunpoint and asked him to be weak???

  64. A salaam alikum
    Being a new convert, (a week :) ), I would like to point out that the opposite happens to white sisters. Many families embrace that white girl that converts, but as soon as marriage is on the cards with an asian/arab man, we are like the plague! We aren’t suitable wives due to the culture we were brought up in, something we couldn’t change along with the lifestyle we have adopted! My prospective husband has already been told by his mother that I could be the most pious and intelligent women in the universe but she will never bless the wedding due to the fact I am English.

    I think it tends to be an issue with converts as we dont have the blessing of finding a wife/husband through our parents! then it enters into haraam territory!

  65. Amira, I’ve witnessed the opposite many times. Shahada today, nikah tomorrow. Destroys the notion of deen in a lot of sisters. Especially in desi families because the “mother in law from hell” syndrome comes out in full force sometimes.

    I get proposals… only because I’m graduate school educated and make good money as an engineer. When I start talking about hjrah, jihad, wala and bara, when they ask “why is your beard so big?” and “why do you wear thobes and long shirts all the time?”, and “but my daughter wants to work and doesnt want to wear niqab…” then its off.

    Alhamdulillah, after 3 years of searching, I think I found someone to marry inshaAllah. If not, qadrullah.

    I agree with akh Umar, yuppies are the worst and weak white converts make me embarrassed. As do the yuppakis.

    Seriously, I was raised to know how to hunt, fish, chop wood, handle emotions, etc. Basically, how to be a man. Something, that is seriously lacking in this country as a whole (outside of the working class/redneck population) and not just the yuppakis.

  66. Asalamu alaikum warahmutullahi wabarakatu,

    Hi brother….I just want to say that I am shocked and disappointed with all the allegations and generalizations you have written about African-American women. My background is East African and Yemeni…and I am married to a white Muslim brother whom I met in university. I was in no means to get married then along he came and asked to marry me. I feel from the way you talk about all African-American sisters as very demeaning and after white brothers…like they are a pack of wolves looking for someone to support them to be rather disgusting. I am educated…my family fits the same demographics as “the white brother” would (middle class- to upper..working hard). I feel your comments don’t reflect that of a good Muslim…I dont think you understand the concept of being a Muslim. You state that white brothers should marry their white sisters…or “immigrants” of the same level to them (like you aren’t an immigrant yourself; well if you aren’t I am sure your ancestors were…) I dont agree with this notion…I agree in what Allah and our Prophet have mentioned in a women marrying a man that is either higher than her in knowledge (this can mean knowledge of the deen, etc) or at the same level to her AND a man marrying a women for her iman (faith), her beauty and wealth…if he should go with one of these the initial being the one with the utmost importance….I also agree on the hadeeth that states:

    “O mankind! We created you from a single (pair) of a male and a female,
    And made you into nations and tribes, that ye may know each other
    (Not that ye despise each other). Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the most righteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well-acquainted (with all things).”

    We have all been created into different tribes and placed into different cultures and environments…however YOU have no right to guide anyone into marrying who YOU think is best for the white brother or the white sister or the black sister….that job is up to our Creator Allah. I am sorry to say this but life has been predestined for all of us…the pen has been lifted and only Allah can guide us. We don’t know who we will end up with…the only thing for anyone is to be the best Muslim they can be. So your article is rather useless I must say to those practicing the deen according to and by Allah…not anyone’s opinions on different cultures and groups..subhanAllah.

  67. Oh My God,

    as a Saudi woman, I am deeply ashamed of this post. You sound like the misogynists here in Saudi Arabia.

    Seriously, this is a very disgusting post. May Allah guide you to the right path.

    You should remember the hadeeth that mentions how Omar ibn Al Khattab and his wife were fighting one day, and she was yelling at him, and that one of his Sahhabah heard the fight but Omar was not responding. So when he asked him about it later…..you know what? I’m not going to finish this hadeeth. Go look it up, if you even had half the knowledge of Islam you claim you do.

    Seriously, think about who was managing the household when Khadija held the purse-strings.

    Seriously, enough with this Wahhabist lunacy!!

  68. @ Another white brother, you fag quote ” yuppies are the worst and weak white converts make me embarrassed. ” I feel is ridiculous, I work in corp america , have a big beard have pants just above my ankle not just below the knee, I am not an extremist salafi nor do i condone sufism or any other sect that calls themself something other than muslim, although I was duped into believing a rich old pakistani man can see me from lahore while I am in virginia was a load , especially after I got to visit pakistan. He warned us against the tv yet he watched it, he chewed this pakistani stuff called paan that has tobacco in it, he watched wwf wrestling, and abosutely loved young black women, his latest is a 15 yr old and I believe this man is now 80, I am white, sensitive and compassionate, does that make me less of a man or more like the Prophet? when Khadijah passed, what did the Prophet do, He cried, he declared it the worst day of his life, I got duped witht the salafees in philly, marrying a ex whore no really stripper,whore, mom has aids from being a whore too, I never had a blemish on my record, until I met black brothers who almost influenced me that running drugs from one place to another is not haram bcause I wasnt selling or using, just moving it. Now I am divorced, my ex wife is from a place called the badlands in philly, a disgusting part which only latino, poor whites and blacks live, and guess whos the Imam at the new masjid there, Dawud adib, the man of a thousand holes. or recently Imam ike as Umar calls him, lol. I am white , happy to be white and I pray inshallaah I never marry anyone from philly again, black or white, I do want to marry a white sister but the ones I run into always have a worse attitude than the black niqaabis. I met a white suburban sister doesnt educated like me , worked in the medical field, pursued a nursing degree and married a brother from the hood, got her ass whooped and never taken care of, all because she had this idea too, maybe alll those beatings from the strong black salafee brother changed her mind about alot of things, she doesnt even acknowledge islam anymore, thanks to the pious black oil hustlin bruva. lol. ghetto islam is disgusting, using the term wahabi is disgusting because its considered name calling and believing a fat old pakistani man who worships graves in Mian Mir village in pakistan is a spark of Allaah is stupidity. Shame on all of you, you are all the same, crying because you lose your wife, or missing your children is a characteristic of Allaah that was given to that particular person, I know of a black sister who grew up in one of the most ugliest parts of philly and yet has the most soft, sensitive, feministic characteristics I have ever seen. mashallaah, too bad many more blacks arent like this then the sunnah would be portrayed the real way, not paki men marrying 14 yr olds without dad and moms permission, salafee Imams marrying new shahadas leaving them when they get worn out. and also these whores who wear niqaab pretending to be pious, then finding out she was a real whore and married 7 times in 6 yrs then calls u on the D.L wanting to test drive the car before buyng it. I feel that some not all of these inner city”urban muslims” have mental issues, I know a case worker who said more than 70% of clients of hers is muslim ladies with their face covered are diagnosed with bi polar disorder, hiv, hep c , and herpes. Thats whats disgusting , I know whites and blacks who grew up in the same area and are totally different, Color has nothing to do with it. I am happy to be sensitive, happy to cry for my family, happy to get teary eyed at Sheikh Shuraims Quran recitation, happy how Allaah created me, I can wear big white tee shirts, izars, and tims too, I just dont yell at everything black with a big booty thats all. but I refuse to even look like that, I wear button down shirts and khakis am I a punk? No I am not , just educated and white, and oh so proud, can I say white and proud? or am I racist, I hear it all the time from Blacks, they are not racist are they? No just ” oppressed” because they are still using slavery as a b.s excuse not to work. Barak Obama thats all I gotta say, if he can u can. unless u r afraid of what ur low life hood kafir family n friends may think, but as we all know, On Yawm ul Qiyam all the crap you do I wont be asked about , only you will , so dont point that finger so quickly , especially if your late on your rent but coming from foot locker with a fresh new pair of tims.
    ooooo the brother ya luv to hate…….

    Abdul-Maalik white and proud.

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