Keith Ellison Fake Quran Controversey

The 24 hour news channels, daytime talk shows, and the blogosphere have a way of feeding controversies and polarizing people. Every couple of weeks some issue becomes very hot and everyone is talking about exactly the same thing and it isn’t the national deficit, the budget crisis, our failing schools, our lack of national health insurance, social security, the environment, or race relations. Currently one of the hot topics is on the issue of whether Keith Ellison, the first Muslim ever elected to the United States Congress, should be sworn in on the Quran or the Bible.

 

Ellison has said he wants to be sworn in on the Quran (a custom alien to the Muslim tradition but that is another issue) and this caused conservative talk-radio host (and in a previous life a very good writer and thinker) Dennis Prager to say if he didn’t want to be sworn in on the Bible then he should not serve in the Congress. Since that time the sentiment of Prager has gained a lot of steam amongst conservative talk-radio, Fox News types and the right-wing blogosphere; while it has drawn condemnation from Muslim organizations and the board of the US Holocaust Museum of which Prager is a member.

Why this is an issue I don’t know; America is a nation founded by men of faith that were also men of the enlightenment and many had a very progressive view towards organized religion and its ill-effect on European life.

 

Throughout the history ofAmerica this has been a Christian nation; but one would be a fool not to recognize that this is changing as tens of millions of Americans are post-Christian and many millions of other Americans are Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, Atheists, Agnostics or yes even Muslims. When they are elected to the US Congress they are not elected to uphold the Talmud, the teachings of Buddhism and Hinduism, or the temple of Barry Lynn, they are all elected, as Ellison has been, to uphold the constitution of the United States.  

When the elected member takes the oath it is a public act signifying a personal commitment and honor bound duty to uphold the constitution and if the ceremony is real, and not just some fake ritual, then the incoming member should be sworn in on what book is real to them. Why should a Muslim or Jew have to swear in on the books of Paul? Prager should understand that, he is an authority on the Jewish faith, and he knows, that despite his commitment to the phony notion of a Judeo-Christian tradition, that the New Testament is a complete heresy in the eyes of traditional Jews and has no bearing on the value system of Jews. This is just Prager descending to the level of the likes of Glenn Beck and the rest who are gaining popularity and fame off of a radical demonization of Muslims.

 

Meanwhile In Israel

While Prager is busy making a fuss about a nonsense issue Israel has opened a mosque at ben-Gurion International Airport just outside of Tel Aviv. This is an airport I have flown in and out of several times and I will look forward to visit the mosque the next time I am in Israel insha’Allah. I am sure that the governments of Syria, Iran, Saudi Arabia, and Egypt will reciprocate by opening synagogues in their airports… yea right.

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51 thoughts on “Keith Ellison Fake Quran Controversey

  1. assalamu alikeum

    I heard that some of your own presidents in the past didnt swear on the bible. Is that true? If so, they’re not really in a position to complain about someone else not swearing on the bible, if preivous heads of state didnt.

  2. From what I understand, no one actually swears on anything in the official swearing-in ceremony. Afterwards everyone gets their picture taken individually, to commemorate the swearing-in, and it’s here that the Bible is used by some, and where Ellison wants to use the Qur’an.

    What a ridiculous “controversy”, and an excuse for some to get in their anti-Islam digs while under a pretense of defending American values.

    It’s nice to see many, including some Jewish groups, rebuke Prager. They are not fooled, and they can smell the bigotry.

    I don’t know a whole lot about Ellison, but from statements of his that I’ve read and interviews that I’ve seen (like that horrible Glenn Beck one), he seems to be a man who has a lot of patience and dignity. That’s good, because he’s going to continue to need both.

  3. Cheesy White boy

    Ellison is a class act. He takes the high road no matter how much shit they aim his way. Maybe the Israelis made the mosque to make up for the 800 year old one they destroyed in Beit Hanoon.

  4. As an atheist Jew, I have to go with Ellison on this one. The idea that he cannot swear on the Quran is ridiculous. Whatever issues Prager has with Muslim migration he certainly shot himself in the foot.

    Regarding Glenn Beck… I was not impressed with his interview with Ellison. Not so much because of Glenn’s accusations but honestly, he is just not that entertaining. Perhaps he is better on radio. For a better right-wing viewpoint, Tucker Carlson is worth 60 minutes.

    I am glad that Israel built the Mosque and does make a genuine effort to preserve Churches and Bahia temples. This is their moral responsibility.

    Regarding Cheesy’s comment: “Maybe the Israelis made the mosque to make up for the 800 year old one they destroyed in Beit Hanoon”… I must ask, how many Jewish temples were destroyed, looted, or defaced when Jordan occupied Jerusalem? More than 50? Some of them going back to the 13th century.

    Israel’s record on temple preservation is not perfect, but if we believe in the golden rule of reciprocity I think Israel record holds up really well.

  5. Oh, I do agree that Ellison is a class act. He holds up very well to all sorts of critism, and g-d knows he is getting more than his fair share.

  6. Ellison is leading the news tonight on CNN. He is doing an interview in 5 minutes with Anderson Cooper if anyone is interested.

  7. What diference does it make if he makes an oath while placing his hand on a bible or quran? He’s not asking it for help or to intercede for him.

    Am asking.

    Is it haram? Is it shirk?

    Frankly, its the oath itself he should stay away from.

    The nazis will be attacking him regardless of what he does.

  8. Cheesy White Boy

    Thats ancient history, Jordan, assuming your comments are factual. Something which defenders of Israel are not known for. I’m talking about 2006. Its purely symbolic, I doubt Muslims tend not go through Israel when traveling. Hell, I wouldn’t go through there just out of solidarity with the Palestinians.

  9. Cheesy, of cource us supporters of Israel are liars! Haven’t you read the Protocols of Zion? It’s all there.

    Incedently, about 20% of Israel’s population is Muslim and I am sure they travel. I believe they absolutely deserve the right to worship freely… along with Christians, Jews, Bahai, etc.. Israel is actually the only place in the middle-east with a growing Christian population.

    Israel has a pretty good record of accomidating its religious minorities with temples… but it can always be better. The mosque is a good start. The airport needs more Arabic signs as well.

    But compare this to Egypt, Israel’s neighboor, where there is one Mosque for 60 Muslims and one Church for 2000 Christians. And of cource, a strict no-new-Church policy. Apparently, getting a church wedding is next to impossible.

    Then again, I must be lying.

  10. Cheesy White Boy

    Yeah you just might be lying. I’m not looking for an argument with you, Jordan. What are your sources BTW?

  11. “Ellison has said he wants to be sworn in on the Quran (a custom alien to the Muslim tradition but that is another issue)…”

    Imam Al-Shafi’i reported that when in Makkah he found the people emphasizing their oaths by placing their hand on the Quran.

  12. Correction, he witnessed that in Yemen, and there is an Athar from Ibn Zubair that he ordered that it be done once. Al-Shafi’i then said “There were several Officials who would order others to take oath [with thier hand] on the Mushaf. I see this as something good.”
    Sunan Al-Bayhaqi al-Kubra, 10/177

  13. I never traveled into Israel anywhere except through Jordan. I refused to have the Israeli stamp in my passport as that would refuse me access to most other states in the region.

    The Israelis will usually let you stamp it on a piece of paper to be kept with the passport. I was told once that they were going to stamp my passport, I told them that if they were going to do that, I did not want entry and would go back to Jordan.

    Anyway, synagogues were destroyed by Jordan, but hundreds of villages and mosques were destroyed by Israel.

    Wasnt it David Ben Gurion, the founder of Israel, who once said that there is not an Israeli town or village in Israel today that did not once have an Arab name?

    Anyway, we can go on forever about the past, but the fact is, when was the last time Palestinians destroyed a synagogue and when is the last time Israelis destroyed a mosque? This is current history.

    As to the building of synagoges in the wider Middle East, it would be a good thing. The cultural life of the Middle East is poorer because of the movement of Shephardic Jews away from their traditional lands. Places like Yemen, Iraq, and Morocco benefitted greatly from their Jewish communities.

  14. Well I do believe Prager made a big deal out of nothing. He did have a bit of a point (except for the fact there are examples of presidents and congressmen who did not swear on the bible). But his point was that America’s values are derived from the Bible, that the those who wrote the consititution used the Bible as their basis for deriving law.

    Anyway, its been blown out of proportion and he is much to blame for it due to the tone of his articles but I did see that he had a bit of a point.

  15. I agree with you Um Abdullah. The problem is, as a country that prides itself on religious freedom, we must not allow that basis to exclude others.

    Based on what Prager says, I would expect him to argue in favour of Islamic fundamentalist states. If he thinks that a state has the right to refuse people of different faiths accomadation based on the religious basis of law in a country, in what way does he differ from the idiots in Saudi Arabia who pass of much of their culture as “religion?”

    If he can say “if you dont want to adhere to Christianity or Judaism, tough” he has no grounds to condemn those people who live in Muslim or Hindu countries that say the same thing. Take a look at laws in India that forbid religious conversion as a way to keep “untouchables” from fleeing the religious mandates that keep them the “lowest of the low” and tells them they cannot convert to Islam, Christianity or Buddhism.

    I’d love to see him make that argument.

  16. Fair enough Abu Sinan.

  17. If existing synagogues were destroyed by Jordan, or Palestinians, that is wrong. On the other hand, if there is a place of worship that is not used anymore, or an overwhelming majority of its adherents have converted then I that is different. I doubt that is the case for most synagogues. I am not going to defend wrong Muslim behaviour where it exists because of what Israel is doing.

    On the other hand, it is a fact that Palestinians in Gaza, WB, and within Israel are having their land confiscated. Recently, one village in the Naqab/Negev was destroyed. For the airport, a nondenominational, clean prayer/meditation room with no images, and an attached washroom is good enough for Muslims. I have no problem sharing that space with Jews – its the killing, destruction, and exile I am mad about. Presently, I would not want to visit Lod airport anyway. If they accept Palestinians as equal citizens and give the three religions their recognition then I’d love to fly through Lod. Its the holy land where prophets have walked, we can pray on the streets and hallways.

  18. stop having pathetic digs at muslim countries in your attept to make the Isrealis seem tolerant. Palestinians dont give a fuck about opening a mosque in an airport just like egyptian muslims couldnt give a damn that christmas is now an official national holiday on the 7th of january.

  19. qawukzi, we have to remember that the only reason those synogogues are not being used anymore is because of a successful compaign to make 99% of the Arab world Jew-free.

    In a sence its rewarding bad behavior. Because Israel has many Arab citizens and not vice versa, Israel is put under the microscope far more than its neighbors.

    Also, we have to keep in mind that during the Jordanian occupation from 48 to 67, holy sites in Jerusalem were for Muslims only, no Jews allowed even at the wailing wall. After the 1967 war, all Israeli citizens can worship freely no matter what their religion. And they do.

    Lets be honest, if Israel treated its Christian citizens the way Egypt does, there would be outrage. The idea of Christians not being granted permits to build a church and are physically hurt if they try to worship in unliscensed buildings would be a crime against humanity if it happened just 50 miles east. But since it is Egypt and not Israel, nobody cares.

    No one believes that Mecca will ever open its doors to non-Muslims rights, nor allow Jews to ever become citizens or Christians to open a church or even walk around with a bible. Why is it the worst a country behaves, the less the outrage?

    There must be some sence of the golden rule. We cannot demand perfect morality from one side only.

  20. Salam Um Abdullah,

    >>But his point was that America’s values are derived from the Bible, that the those who wrote the consititution used the Bible as their basis for deriving law.

    But, he was quite wrong about that. The bible contains almost nothing that can be of use in modern government. Our government is a product of the Enlightenment which derived its values from ancient Greece and Rome, based on rationality, science and observation of what is and not mandating what things should be like as the Bible does. So, Praeger and all Christian Supremacists are very wrong by saying the Bible is the basis, source or even bedrock of America. America was founded and governed on exactly opposite the principles of Evangelist and Islamist ideologies.

  21. Jordan: “Cheesy, of cource us supporters of Israel are liars! Haven’t you read the Protocols of Zion? It’s all there.”

    Break out the violins. Someone’s feeling “poisecuted.”

    Omar G: “So, Praeger and all Christian Supremacists are very wrong by saying the Bible is the basis, source or even bedrock of America.”

    Prager is no kind of Christian, much less a “Christian supremacist”. He is now what he always has been. An ethnic chauvinist/supremacist in the guise of a “conservative.”

  22. Cheesy White Boy

    Jordan, what are your sources?

  23. Mostly news sources, etc. I have recently been having fun with Time Magazine’s Archive which goes back to 1923. The articles regarding Palestine in the early period are some of the ironic and fascinating pieces, I wish they went back farther.

    But if you wish, tell me which fact you would like sourced and I will be happy to provide it for you.

  24. Cheesy White Boy

    What news sources would they be? I’m curious because much of your writing seems to mirror the sort of invective found on far right wing blogs.

  25. There are Jewish populations in at least Morocco, Jordan, Tunisia, Egypt, Iran, and Tirkey to my knowledge. Jordan took in Jews fleeing the Holocaust. I think there was an official sort of expulsion from Iraq, and of course I do not condone it. Shahist Iran was very happy to encourage an exodus to Israel, though on friendly and polite terms.

    Most of the exodus of Jews from Arab lands has happened much later, picking up after ’67. This has been a reaction which came up after a realization of Arab impotence when Palestinians were being beaten, arrested en masse and dispossessed in land which until recently was under Jordanian rule. Sinai was occupied, and Israeli settlements were springing up all over the occupied lands. The nationalists and Baathists said, if they are taking our land and those of the Palestinians and treating them as slaves in their own land, then they should take in “their” own people, the Arab Jews and we can confiscate the vacant property to give to the Palestinian refugees streaming in. This however, was never the recognised position of the Arab or Muslim peoples as a whole. These same Baathists and nationalists have also killed and exiled many in the secular or Islamist opposition. Of course encouraging expulsion of your own citizens because of the crimes of Zionists in Jerusalem or the West Bank is wrong. I am not condoning that behavior but only saying that it sprang from the conflation of the state of Israel with all Jewish people, and lazy short-cut political pragmatism of secular Arab nationalism, and not from an inherent hatred or any supposed scriptural idea against a Jewish presence. However, this is not the official position of any major political force today. Morocco welcomes Jews who had left earlier, and many Moroccan Jews are even coming back and re-establishing their businesses. Political parties are not winning elections on a platform of Jewish expulsion. The party of Avigdor Lieberman does call for the expulsion of Arabs, is a part of the ruling coalition, and is being treated by Hillary and the Saban center. Your idea of the Golden rule IS being followed in the Middle East, Israel does demolish homes, and deny permits to build homes, let alone churches or mosques. Jerusalem is being slowly de-Palestinised because Palestinians are denied the right to build or repair their homes, while Sharon had a second (or third?) mansion in the Muslim quarter. Jordan, this is what I am saying:- Jewish citizens of any and every country have a right to remain there, and be granted the rights of citizens. There have been many violations of this in the past, and that is wrong. Further, it is not the official position of any party today, EVEN Hamas that Jews should be expelled or ethnically cleansed. And if some nuthead says so, we are against it, and I am sure almost all Muslims visiting this forum would agree (i.e., of course Jews should not be expelled en mass). When you keep harping on the Golden Rule, you are saying that the other person is a barbarian while we are civilised. The reality is that there are millions of Palestinean refugees who are living proof against your contention. The Golden Rule is actually being followed in the ME, there are a lot of people in all categories who think it is ok to kill members of the other ethnicity, and those that are against it, Besides, when you talk of Muslims being granted equal rights, it is in the United States, not Israel. They are separate, distinct entities with vastly different national identities. Israel restricts, eliminates, and imprisons the Palestinians in ghettos, while American Indians today are free, have equal rights, and are not being imprisoned as a people. USA is one of the free-est countries for the areas it governs directly (51 states). There are faults but they are much less than many in the ME (including Israel), Asia, and EU. The neo-con foreign policy is another matter.

  26. ” I’m curious because much of your writing seems to mirror the sort of invective found on far right wing blogs”

    Your right, it is invective :)

    qawukzi, I will not say that many Arabs (even as high as 30-50%) were not forcefully removed (or from fear) during the 48 war and it is shameful.

    But its important to remember that those refugees were the result of a war started by 5 invading Arab armies where the publicly stated intention was to “drive the Jews into the sea”. Isn’t it a little ironic to accuse the Jews of ethnic clensing? It’s like saying “how dare you do to me what I was trying to do to you… we demand compensation!”. Also, about 200,000 Arabs remained under assurance from Jewish leaders and they were made full citizens (as they fully deserve) and have more rights and freedoms than any Muslim in the Arab world. Including the right to sue your own government and win.

    Don’t get me wrong, I don’t blame them for leaving in 48. If an invading army told me to get the hell out of the way so they can kill the Jews and I had a family to protect, I would leave in a heartbeat. But if the invading army lost, and I took the side that wanted to kill my neighboors, I know I would not be allowed to go back. You cannot lose a war and they say “ok, do-over!”

    Here is a famous quote from Khaled Al-Azm, Syria’s Prime Minister

    “Since 1948 it is we who demanded the return of the refugees… while it is we who made them leave…. We brought disaster upon … Arab refugees, by inviting them and bringing pressure to bear upon them to leave…. We have rendered them dispossessed…. We have accustomed them to begging…. We have participated in lowering their moral and social level…. Then we exploited them in executing crimes of murder, arson, and throwing bombs upon … men, women and children-all this in the service of political purposes”

    Also, your description of the current situation is just not realistic. Yes Morroco has been a good exception to the rule, but when 99% of the entire Jewish population leaves, and the Israeli Arab population grows by 5x, something is not kosher. And the idea that the Jews can move back to countries that kicked them out, use the “Protocols of Zion” in childrens textbooks, and have Mein Kampf on the bestseller list every single year is far from realistic.

    Same goes for the Christian exodus from the middle east (except from ONLY Israel where they are growing), the Hindu exodus from Pakistan, the Bahai exodus from Iran, etc.. Yes, there are always exceptions to the rule, but all the evidence points to the Islamic world is losing its diversity and the non-Muslim world is becoming more Islamic. The fact that in the Islamic world conversion to any religion besides Islam is illegal should be a key indicator that the golden rule is not in play. If Israel had that policy, there would be riots in the street!

    But for the moment, lets assume you are right and the Jewish expulsion and the Arab expulsion are morally equal. Shouldn’t we let bygons be bygons and accept a two-state solution?

  27. I am not in a position to discuss each and every country like Pakistan or Indonesia. The Palestinians are a distinct national group from the Arabs, Muslims, or Christians even though many would have that identity as well. It is an ad-hominem attack when you say accuse Palestinians of being guilty becaues they are Muslims because Muslims of Pakistan expelled Hindus in ’47, (while incidentally millions were massacred in Delhi and East Punjab). If you want to talk of South Asia we can do that, but separately. You first make an accusation, and then use that as an argument in itself.

    Ba’athist Syria has as bloody hands as anyone else, not the least from its suppression of Lebanese Muslims and Palestinians itself (Awn, Gemayel I (X’ians), Nasrallah (Shi’i), Jumblat II (Daruz), and various Sunnis) have all been Syrian agents one time of the other. I doubt that the ex-Syrian PM you quote is not saying that because he is shifting from the payroll of one master to the other.

    Sure, a two state solution among equals, on the lines of the Geneva initiative sounds reasonable. Or a secular one state solution. Whichever works.

  28. Cheesy White Boy

    Qawukzi, I noticed that about Jordan’s tactics also. I knew there was something wrong the moment he claimed I’m was a reader of the “protocols of zion” for being critical of Israeli terrorism. That, and his refusal to divulge his sources says a great deal about the man.

  29. Asking Mecca to open it’s doors to non Muslims would be like asking Vatican City to allow a mosque to be built in it.

    However, I think under Islam, churches and synagogues should be allowed everywhere In Saudi, and encouraged everywhere in Saudi, with the exception of Mecca and Medina.

  30. Abu Sinan,

    You should know that the Prophet(SAWS) commanded the expulsion of non-muslims from the Arabian peninsula. I believe in Sahih Bukhari.

    If I am correct it was Shaikh Bin Baz that issued a fatwa based on that hadith, and said it was not permitted to bring non-muslim housemaids to the arabian pennisula.

    Sorry, I cant memorize all hadith I read, but if you really need I can try to find it.

    I wonder how many Jews migrated to Israel by choice and not because of persecution? Just like Muslims would do if we were permitted to have an Islamic state.

  31. Expelling Arab Jews was a supremely stupid move. Where would they live…? You guessed it; the couple 100,000 or so expellees would have to live on Palestinian land. Also, with hardly any Jews in Arab countries, there is no bargaining chip: “Hey, treat the Arabs in Israel, Gaza, West Bank well, and we guarantee we will treat the Jews living in our state well, too; deal?” Of course, most Arabs pay only lip service to Palestinians while forbidding them to become citizens, go to university, get good jobs and live outside of squalid refugee camps…for sixty years in some cases. Many, many supremely stupid moves on the parts of the Arabs…

  32. Dawood,

    >>You should know that the Prophet(SAWS) commanded the expulsion of non-muslims from the Arabian peninsula. I believe in Sahih Bukhari.

    Even if it is, something about that doesn’t sound right. If we accept that, we can neve claim Islam is a religion of peace in those cute little interfaith meetings that are really meant by Muslims to cover our asses. So, the meaning of that command would be, “convert to Islam or you have to leave your home and lands.” This directly contradicts the Quran, “There is no compulsion in deen.” It is also oppressive in the extreme and does not fit with the Prophet’s previous behaviors to people, even pagan Arabs. It sounds very much like it was fabricated for the benefit of the Umayyads, who were the first Arab nationalists and reversed a good part of what the Prophet and the Companions had accomplished.

  33. I am pretty sure that the hadith is sahih, and it only applies to Jazeera al- Arab.

    Sorry if it doesnt fit into your interpretation of Islam. I’m just passing on the info.

  34. Where are the Jazira’s borders? Present-day Saudi or what? And, just because “you are sure its Sahih” means (if you are correct) that the isnad has no faults. It does not mean automatically that it *was* uttered by the Prophet. And, in any case, a rigorous analysis *beyond* the isnad would of course have to address how it can contradict the Quran and the Prophet’s past actions. Saying “its Sahih” is a supreme cop-out that wants to avoid the real issues and implications of if he said that. And, answer this: why only the peninsula and not just the Harams? Is all of Arabia a Haram, then? I’m pretty sure there were Christian communities in Najran that exist even to this day and are actually mentioned in the hadith; obviously they were not expelled; why not? Najran is part of the jazira. And, what about the non-Muslim slaves that flowed into Madina during the Rashidun’s reign and even into the Umayyad period? Why were they allowed in? Umar is said to have been the one that finally drove out the Jewish Arab tribes from Khaybar, but this was many years after the Prophet passed away; why did he wait so long if he was ordered to by the Prophet? Why was the Prophet’s order previously not carried out to its fullest implementation?

    So, you see, it is NOT as simple as jsut saying “its sahih”; there are alot of questions that need to be answered about this and it all makes me think that its content is false; and indeed, the scholars of the past considered the text, its meanings and content when making a fiqh judgment on the basis of a hadith and did not just stop at “its sahih.”

  35. OmarG

    Im not qualified to say wether it is Sahih or not. It is in Sahih Bukhari. As far as I know the scholars agree that the ahadith in Sahih Bukhari are sahih. I read a hardcopy of Fatwas Regarding Women By Sh. Bin Baz, and I believe it was he that said it was not permissible to bring christian housmaids to Saudia, and gave the hadith as evidence. Here it is. Like I said i’m only passing on the info. You can do with it as you like.

    Volume 4, Book 52, Number 288:
    Narrated Said bin Jubair:

    Ibn ‘Abbas said, “Thursday! What (great thing) took place on Thursday!” Then he started weeping till his tears wetted the gravels of the ground . Then he said, “On Thursday the illness of Allah’s Apostle was aggravated and he said, “Fetch me writing materials so that I may have something written to you after which you will never go astray.” The people (present there) differed in this matter and people should not differ before a prophet. They said, “Allah’s Apostle is seriously sick.’ The Prophet said, “Let me alone, as the state in which I am now, is better than what you are calling me for.” The Prophet on his death-bed, gave three orders saying, “Expel the pagans from the Arabian Peninsula, respect and give gifts to the foreign delegates as you have seen me dealing with them.” I forgot the third (order)” (Ya’qub bin Muhammad said, “I asked Al-Mughira bin ‘Abdur-Rahman about the Arabian Peninsula and he said, ‘It comprises Mecca, Medina, Al-Yama-ma and Yemen.” Ya’qub added, “And Al-Arj, the beginning of Tihama.”)

  36. I don’t figure how that can apply to Christian and Jewish citizens of those lands. On this count I’ll have to agree with OmarG somewhat. The content and context beyond the isnad is also important. Mecca and Medina is different. Expulsion of harbi (warring) parties is different. There are no Saudi Christian citizens, but it is different for example in Egypt that Jordan mentioned. Or course if there are Copts living in a certain place, and there is no Church there or it is much smaller than is needed they should be permitted to expand, open a new one, or rent a place temporarily.

    Serious study, and sincere conviction is needed to figure out these things, and we can’t just do away with dalil. I am not arguing for the sort of “liberal” Islam peddled by PMUNA.

  37. (IMG:style_emoticons/default/sl.gif)

    Narrated Ibn ‘Umar: Umar bin Al-Khattab expelled all the jews and christians from the land of Hijaz. Allah’s Apostle after conquering Khaibar, thought of expelling the jews from the land which, after he conquered it belonged to Allah, Allah’s Apostle and the Muslims. But the jews requested Allah’s Apostle to leave them there on the condition that they would do the labor and get half of the fruits (the land would yield). Allah’s Apostle said, “We shall keep you on these terms as long as we wish.” Thus they stayed till the time of ‘Umar’s Caliphate when he expelled them to Taima and Ariha.

    Bukhari

    and Muhammed (IMG:style_emoticons/default/s.gif) said : no two religions can co-exist in Arabia
    Abu Dawood

    and Umar Radhiullahu anhu narrated he heard the Prophet (IMG:style_emoticons/default/s.gif) say:i will certainly expel the Jews and the Christians from the Arabian Peninsula,, and I will not leave anyone there but Muslims.
    Tirmidhi

    the scholars have differed as to whether this is the whole of arabia or just Hijaz

  38. I mentioned that it was Shaikh Abdul Aziz Bin Baz that said in his fatwas regarding women, that Islamically christian housemaids could not be brought into Saudi Arabia.

    In response to Abu Sinan saying:

    “However, I think under Islam, churches and synagogues should be allowed everywhere In Saudi, and encouraged everywhere in Saudi, with the exception of Mecca and Medina.”

    Note the words “under Islam”

    Nice discussion.

  39. Dawood, KSA is a different because there are no native non-muslims, and the privileged few need to get up and start doing their own work, instead of depending on expatriates for the next meal. Those who are there of course need to have the freedom to worship. If you can’t provide that, then don’t depend on them.

    In general, the Hadith you are quoting need to be applied taking care of content, context, and the Qur’anic ethos also.

    In places where there are AhlelKitab or non-muslim populations of course they have to have freedom to their institutions. Most of the time they do, and if someone thinks that putting in the spanner in the works in construction of a church somewhere is a service to Islam, they are mistaken. The biggest reason for the decline of relative non-muslim population is bad conditions in general and migration. Go out and meet the new immigrants in Flint and Muslims, Orthodox Christians, Chaldeans will give very similar reasons. There’s a reason they choose to stay near each other, and the biggest mosque and orthodox church in Dearborn are on adjoining pieces of land. The year I spent an Eid there, a Yemeni and Saudi friend went out bought a lavish lunch from an Chaldean place next door.

    When the first crusaders took Jerusalem, the Jewish population tried to defend the city together with the Muslims, and when the Aqsa was burned, so was the synagogues. When Saladin retook it, he subsidized the repair of synagogues, along with the reconstruction of the cities mosques.

  40. I just have to say, I am very impressed with the influx of intelligent and polite commentators here lately.

    qawukzi and OmarG, your knowledge in history is especially impressive. I am learning a lot from your posts and thank you for the debates.

  41. qawukzi, you said

    “KSA is a different because there are no native non-muslims, and the privileged few need to get up and start doing their own work, instead of depending on expatriates for the next meal. Those who are there of course need to have the freedom to worship. If you can’t provide that, then don’t depend on them.”

    How about they treat them like humans? Most of the the expats. are treated like animals, muslim and non-muslim alike, many arent payed either. It is VERY shameful how some people that call themselves Muslims treat others.

    Thats why I always say: Islam is not described by what Muslims do. It is described by the quran and sunah.

  42. And it is Muslims who, in fact, tells us about the Qur’an and Sunnah, since, for example, the hadith and the various readings (Hafs, Warsh, etc.) of the Qur’an were preserved in the memories of Muslims.

    Unless you’re claiming independent revelation… which I am 100% certain you are not.

  43. Dawood I know exactly what you mean. One of my cousins just “escaped” from KSA. There are no labour laws, minimal judicial protection for foreigners. Unless you’re Saudi or American forget about your rights. At the same time, a lot of Saudis seem to personally good people but it seems the establishment has completely ignored the humility and justice of Islam. So a lot of people think that this is all right.

    It’s similar to what we see everywhere. We’ll read Malcolm but remain closet prejudiced people, Muslims and Christians will claim to love Jesus but keep dealing in interest, and keep thousands homeless while driving in SUVs, building palaces in suburbia. I am part of that section (not riba, but the mentality, and weakness of action).

    Thabet, the knowledge of the Qur’an and the Sunnah, Ahadith preserved by the Muslims is different from the actions of Muslims. Although people have mixed a lot of stuff in Hadith and Fiqh, and ‘urf (custom) normally finds its way to classical law.

  44. I wonder how many Jews migrated to Israel by choice and not because of persecution? Just like Muslims would do if we were permitted to have an Islamic state.”

    Wait a cotton-pickin’ second. Don’t you have… 20? Or thereabouts?

    Let’s see. Iraq, Bahrain, Syria, Indonesia, Pakistan, Qatar, Oman, “Saudi” Arabia, Jordan, Yemen, Kuwait, the U.A.E., Afghanistan, Kuwait, Somalia, Morocco, Algeria, Chechnya, Egypt, Comoros, Djibouti. Yep, there sure is a paucity of Islamic stats where those poor old Muslims can run from coldhearted persecution by those bad old kuffar! Po’, po’ Muslims. Allus downtrodden an’ out of luck.

    Sorry for lowering the level of discourse, I don’t really mean any respect to the Muslims here, it’s just that OmarG’s comment struck me as so horrifically fatuous that I had to puncture it. “If only we had an Islamic state?” I’m already in double digits and I didn’t even get through ALL of them, homie! And you curse Israel and India for trying to stay Jewish and Dharmic respectively? Fuckers. I hate this relentless, contemptible double standard. Some Muslims– not many around here, but there’s a few of you– have this complex whereby a practicing Muslim can get away with something that would see a kaffir or murtad slaughtered.

    “If only we had an Islamic state!” … Paraphrased of course. But now, REALLY. I didn’t even count the asshole irredentist movements in dozens of countries including China, India, Russia, Thailand, Kenya, Nigeria, Spain, and the Phillippines, many of which, like the Palestinian one, have a legitimate cause, but all of which, including the Palestinian one, earn my contempt because they are spearheaded by assholes, and I do not like assholes.

    And on that note:

    I swear to Allah subhana wa ta’ala, if they kill just ONE MORE BUDDHIST in Thailand I am going to pop a cap in someone’s ass.

    I obviously did not really mean that, but the sentiment is wholly valid.

    That is all.

  45. Don’t really mean any DISRESPECT.

    Take that slip as Freudian if you see fit, I assure you it’s not.

  46. Human Trumpet Solo, none of those countries are authentically Islamic. Where is their Caliph? Which of them actually enforce a ban on usury (and not turn a blind eye like Saudi Arabia etc.)? Heck, how many of those countries you named are run by a king? A caliph is elected by the way, and even women are allowed to vote for him.

    Yes, there is a double standard of sorts, because you’re comparing apples and grapefruits. A Hindu state has just about nothing in common with a Muslim state (ie. caste system versus tax towards charity) for example, and it’s wrong to make it appear as if the choices are perfectly equal.

    Your mention of Irredentism isn’t used properly in this case; it’s meaning is more of people who, instead of wanting independance, want to break off and join another country. An example is some Kashmiris who want to break off from India and become a part of Pakistan.

    Lastly, Buddhists also kill Muslims. Look at the deaths of hundreds of Muslims by the Thai police. Buddhist monks of Mandalay committed rioting, arson, and killed innocent people over a stone thrown into a monastery, as happened in Burma in October of 2002. Poor minority Muslims were beaten up and killed because of alleged disrespect to the sacred monastery, someone threw a stone and the monks mistakenly blamed the Muslims.

  47. When Representative-elect Keith Ellison responded to Wolf Blitzer’s question (on CNN) concerning Representative Virgil Goode’s negative comments, with the statement, “I think he has a lot to learn about Islam!” … I, too, realized I needed to
    Learn more about Islam:

    It was Prophet Muhammad who said, “Whoever sees an abomination must straighten it with his hands.” Saddam Hussein repeated and relied upon this saying in his attack on Kuwait’s ruling family. The Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt depended upon this saying when they killed Anwar El Sadat. We must never imagine that such Muslims are being unnecessarily wicked …They are simply being faithful to their religion!

    From the President, to most religious leaders, to the average talk radio program, we are being told that Islam is a peaceful religion. It is said that bin Laden and the Taliban only represent an extremely radical Muslim fringe, which is not representative of true Islam.

    THIS IS NOT TRUE!

    First of all, “Islam” means submission, not peace. The Arabic word, “islâm” is submission; from; “aslama”- to surrender, resign oneself; from the Syriac, “aðlem” – to surrender; from the stem “ðlem”- to be complete.

    This does not imply voluntary submission but includes a forced submission where the subjects will not comply. Historically Islam is not known for its peace movements, but for a uniquely Arab word, “jihad,” which means an offensive war intended to lead to the conversion of the infidel to Islam, or to his annihilation!

    Islam in the Arabic language and in the Qa’ran/Koran means total submission and obedience. However, the original meaning of “Islam” in the Arabic language is the acceptance of a view or a condition which was not previously accepted, that is the readiness of a person to take orders from god and to follow them. “Muslim” is a word taken from the word Islam, and applies to that person, who is ready to take orders from god and follow him without question.

    “Do they seek a deen other than the deen of Allah and to him all what is in the skies and in the earth have submitted willingly or forcefully and to Him they shall return. [Qur’an 3:83]”

    The word “Islam” was used in the Qur’an as a symbol for the word “deen,” revealed by the Prophet Muhammad. Prophet Muhammad stated that his teachings contain the teachings of all the previous prophets, and all divine commandments. When a person professes the belief in the truthfulness of Prophet Muhammad, and pledges to follow his message, he, in fact, stating his readiness to obey the orders of god unconditionally.

    From the Koran/Qur’an (“An English Interpretation of the Holy Quran with Full Arabic Text,” A. Yusuf Ali), “The deen [religion] before Allah is Islam. [Qur’an 3:19]. Whosoever seeks, other than Islam, a deen, it will not be accepted from him and he, in the Hereafter, is among the losers. [Qur’an 3:85].”

    The concept of “deen” involves four principles: 1) Subjugation, authority, and ruling; 2) Obedience and submission due to subjugation; 3) The method and the habit; and 4) Punishment, reward and judgment. Therefore, “deen” implies a comprehensive system of life that is composed of four parts: 1) The ruler ship and the authority belong to Allah only; 2) The obedience and submission are to Allah; 3) The comprehensive system (intellectual and practical) is established by this authority; and 4) The reward given by this authority (Allah) to those who followed the system and submitted to him and the punishment inflicted upon those who rebel against it and disobey it. Prophet Muhammad said: “Every human being is born in a state of pure nature; but through the influence of his parents, he may become non-Muslim.” Islam is a “divine” system, and with it Allah sealed all other religions, and made it a comprehensive system dealing with all aspects of human life (belief, intellectual, moral, and practical). This system is based on total submission to Allah alone, purifying worship to him only, and following the traditions (sunnah) of Prophet Muhammad.

    Therefore, when you hear people saying that Islam is a peaceful religion, know rather, that Islam is fighting a holy war for control of the world! That war was begun by Prophet Mohammed himself in the seventh century, and is still being carried on today by his followers through terrorism. These terrorists are not radicals or extremists, as the media continually labels them. Rather, these are Islamic fundamentalists who are true to their religion and the teachings of the Qu’ran, and who are following faithfully in the footsteps of the Prophet, Mohammed.

    As Abd El Schafi has said in his book (Behind The Veil: Unmasking Islam), “We must never imagine that such Muslims are being unnecessarily wicked. They are simply being faithful to their religion. The fact is never hidden as to what the proper attitude a good Muslim should have towards Christians and Jews. In fact, much of the incitement to violence and war in the whole of the Qu’ran is directed specifically against Jews/Christians who rejected what they felt to be the strange “god” that Prophet Mohammed was trying to preach. Prophet Muhammad and his successors initiated offensive wars against peaceful countries in order to impose Islam by force as well as to seize the abundance of these lands.” So, Islam was imposed upon Syria, Jordan, Palestine (Jerusalem), Egypt, Libya, Iraq, Iran, all of North Africa, some parts of India and China, and later Spain. So, it appears the “radical” fundamentalists are closer to historic Islam than those who profess to be followers of so-called “mainstream” version. Islam has always been, and continues to be a religion (a way of life) spread by force, not through peaceful means or persuasion.

    Islam was planted by Prophet Muhammad with the sword, not a philosophy or ethic of peace. It’s rather astonishing to learn just how cruel and brutal Prophet Muhammad was as he tortured his captives with fire, then killed them and took their wives as bond maids for himself, as well as for his companions. Following his death, these brothers-in-arms then fought each other in relentless, savage wars; competing for authority and out of deeply rooted hatred, Prophet Muhammad’s relatives and closest friends sacrificed and slaughtered each other!

    No wonder we see Moslems, these days, fighting with each other. In fact, these wars and hostilities spring from the very heart of the Islamic teachings, since it calls for the use of force to combat “wrongdoing,” … just as Prophet Muhammad’s relatives did with one another! It was Muhammad who said, “Whoever sees an abomination must straighten it with his hands.” Thus, Saddam Hussein repeated and relied upon this saying of Muhammad in his attack on Kuwait’s ruling family; and the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt depended upon this saying when they killed Anwar El Sadat (a real man of peace).

    Therefore, when you hear people saying that Islam is a peaceful religion, know rather that Islam is fighting a holy war for control of the world! That is, the concept of an offensive war, to spread the faith, is a genuine Islamic concept; known as a Holy War for the sake of god. This, not peace, is the essence of Islam! That is, if there were sufficient military power available to Islamic countries, they would attack all other countries in order to force them to embrace Islam. The Qu’ran is the authoritative scripture for the Muslim, and here are a few quotes advocating this militancy toward the non-Muslim:

    #1) But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them. And seize them, beleaguer them. Lie in wait for the in every stratagem of war; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them: For Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Surah 9:5)

    #2) Fight those who believe not in Allah nor the Last Day, nor hold that forbidden which hath been forbidden by Allah and His Apostle, nor acknowledge the Religion of Truth, even if they are of the people of the Book, until they pay the Jizya with will submission, and feel themselves subdued. (Surah 9:29)

    #3) Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive and struggle with your goods and your persons, in the Cause of Allah. (Surah 9:41)

    #4) The infidel is to be “killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land, and in the hereafter theirs will be an awful doom. (Surah 5:33)

    #5) Fight in the way of Allah against those who fight against you, but begin not hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth no aggressors. And slay them wherever you find them, and drive them out of the places whence they drove you out. But if they desist, then lo! Allah is forgiving, merciful. (Surah 2:190-92)

    #6) Fight against such of those who have been given the Scripture as believe not in Allah nor the Last Day. Go forth, light-armed and heavy-armed, and strive with your wealth and your lives in the way of Allah. ( Surah 2:29, 41)

    #7) Those who believe do battle for the cause of Allah; and those who reject the faith do battle for the cause of evil. So fight ye against the friends of Satan. (Surah 4:76)

    Prophet Muhammad founded Islam with the sword; his followers maintained Islamic rule with the sword; subsequent generations have always spread Islam’s oppressive rule beyond the Arabian Peninsula with the sword. One cannot be a true follower of Islam without holding to the tenants of the Qu’ran, which also advocates forced submission to its rule. How can anyone who knows anything about Islam deny this? Why are so many, today, inclined to believe that Islam is a peaceful religion and not a militant movement, which desires to conquer the world through Jihad?

    Obviously there are political motives behind the President and his administration that have given rise to their many statements that Islam is a peaceful religion. Yet such is simply not the case. If Islamic terrorism is ever going to be defeated, people are going to have to face the fact that it is driven by a historic Muslim belief in “Holy War” as a means of spreading their religion.

    So then, now (today 1/5/07) that we finally have a Muslim (see definition above) in our House (of Representatives) … My CNN question, would be, “Representative Ellison, as a Muslim and ‘deemed’ follower and ‘true believer’ of the Qu’ran … Representative Ellison, to WHICH are you really true – #1 Your elected position, as the American people’s Representative (be they Muslim or NOT), or #2 to your religion’s more demanding and unrelenting requirements? … You, of course, can’t be both; so which is it, really?”

    And he would answer … in the popular and politically correct way, that, ”I was just being bigoted for having even thought to ask him such a question!” … So be it, but at least, I was thinking!

    It’s a hard,
    hard rain that’s gonna fall,

    Robin

  48. Robin, thanks for your ‘cut&paste’ job, we appreciate that you can clip statements other people make and use the internet to keep anonymity, but you still have to try to be credible.

    Please, do explain the verse where Jesus says “Think not that I came to bring peace but a sword”, or “sell your cloaks, and buy swords”… or the entire contents of Joshua and Kings I & II. Or do you want to claim I’m quoting those verses out of context? That’s fine, please use any of the resources available to you and look up the contexts of the Qur’anic verses you quote.

    When you learn to read and not clip from others, that is.

  49. Robin, you can take many things out of context, For example:

    “A man or a woman who acts as a medium or fortuneteller shall be put to death by stoning; they have no one but themselves to blame for their death. ” (Leviticus 20:27 NAB)

    “Whoever sacrifices to any god, except the Lord alone, shall be doomed.” (Exodus 22:19 NAB)

    “Whoever strikes his father or mother shall be put to death.” (Exodus 21:15 NAB)

    “Anyone arrogant enough to reject the verdict of the judge or of the priest who represents the LORD your God must be put to death. Such evil must be purged from Israel.” (Deuteronomy 17:12 NLT)

    “If your own full brother, or your son or daughter, or your beloved wife, or you intimate friend, entices you secretly to serve other gods, whom you and your fathers have not known, gods of any other nations, near at hand or far away, from one end of the earth to the other: do not yield to him or listen to him, nor look with pity upon him, to spare or shield him, but kill him. Your hand shall be the first raised to slay him; the rest of the people shall join in with you. You shall stone him to death, because he sought to lead you astray from the Lord, your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, that place of slavery. And all Israel, hearing of this, shall fear and never do such evil as this in your midst. ” (Deuteronomy 13:7-12 NAB)

    “Suppose a man or woman among you, in one of your towns that the LORD your God is giving you, has done evil in the sight of the LORD your God and has violated the covenant by serving other gods or by worshiping the sun, the moon, or any of the forces of heaven, which I have strictly forbidden. When you hear about it, investigate the matter thoroughly. If it is true that this detestable thing has been done in Israel, then that man or woman must be taken to the gates of the town and stoned to death. ” (Deuteronomy 17:2-5 NLT)

    The list can actually go on and on, but i rather stop. you can read all the verses from http://www.biblegateway.com

    So, when you read something from the Qur’an, make sure you read them in context. Not just pull them out of context to suit your needs, as the same can be applied to Bible or Torah.

  50. Robin,

    You made a lot of mistakes in your statement. The prophet says whoever sees an evil change it with your hands and if you cannot change it with your hands speak out against it and if you can’t do that hate it in your heart.

    The Muslim Brotherhood had nothing to do with the assassination of Anwar Sadat in Egypt, that is not something that the Egyptian government alleges, he was killed by those affiliated with the Gihad group (a strong opponent of the MB).

    Peace comes through submission to Allah and the roots words of the two are the same. Muslims hold to their supremacy of out faith, and believe that our submission to Allah and his deen of al-Islam is first and foremost and that it is an all-encompassing faith; but how different is that from Orthodox Judaism or some Christian groups?

    Robin, there is no faith with more blood on its hands than Christianity, and as the great Jewish scholar Maimonides said “ since the time of Jesus the world has known nothing but bloodshed and most of it has been done in the name of this man ( Jesus)”.

    So Robin, should Muslims be barred from running for office? Should Muslims be barred from voting? Or maybe we should walk around with little patches on our shirts, would you like that, I’m sure that goes over well with all the right-wing Christian extremists at the navy.

  51. After reading all these comments on our akhi fillah Umar Lee’s web,I don’t precisely aware how I will write this,I say “Assalamu’alaikum wa rahmatullah”. To non muslim “Assalamanit taba’a huda.

    My email is hunaini@bdg.centrin.net.id

    To whoever feels that Qur’an doesn’t mean and function as a whole,please see a book by Acharya S. “The Origin of Christianity And Quest For The Historical Jesus Christ”. I would like if Dawood and Umar could read it.

    Jazirah Arab had been unharnessing the treachery and deceit done by non Muslim Jews.

    Praeger was a guy who would easily get fired if he is on China’s parliament acting like that.

    It’s the peace loving guy time: When Muhammad Shalallahu ‘Alaihi Wa Sallam 13 years at Makkah,the news spread that he’s the prophet mentioned by Shuhuf of prophets. So,in the 10 years after,there were the war to make the evil men submit and to admit defeat to Allah Azza wa Jalla,their only maker. And the maker of the prophet,as who revealed the love and happiness for every living things.

    So,according to a Sunnah Scholar,the problem with Muslim,is now that there are many sholars,who are able to understand and have faith in every aspects of Islam,but could be numbered the people who determine in purifying the source of Islam like tafsir,fiqh,sirah etc from everything that is not from Allahu Ta’ala,Muhammad may blessing from Allah and peace be upon him,and which oppose to jam’ah companions or hawariyyun . And to educate with faith the people,with these outcome.

    So ofcourse,I too feel that a lot of people need to listen to this kind of AKHLAQ,and dedicate themselves physicly and mentally. Do not look for readings outside of Kaafirnes and all the proof in REALITY that Allahu Ta’ala has presented to you in all that you experienced. There are many proof out there that gonna make you preserve yourself in this religion of Adam,millati Ibrahim may peace be upon him.

    To Jordan: what is your email ?.

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